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Arh'fvahir mnean? (What are we?)
protogoth
Member Posts: 2,369 Arc User
What are we as Rihanh? What does it mean to be Rihan? Whence came we, and whither be we bound -- and Why?
In what way does the Kreh'dhhokh Mol'Rihan (New Romulan Republic) relate to the Rihan identity? Is the Kreh'dhhokh (Republic) some kind of radical and new departure from the traditions of the past? Does the Kreh'dhhokh represent anti-Rihan ideals?
These and many other questions are answered by Fvillhu G'essatra ir'Virinat, galae'Enriov t'Prell s'Tal'Diann, in her current course offering at the Lasasam s'Tal'Diann (Academy of the Tal'Diann):
Arh'fvahir mnean? (What are we?)
Llea'u.
In what way does the Kreh'dhhokh Mol'Rihan (New Romulan Republic) relate to the Rihan identity? Is the Kreh'dhhokh (Republic) some kind of radical and new departure from the traditions of the past? Does the Kreh'dhhokh represent anti-Rihan ideals?
These and many other questions are answered by Fvillhu G'essatra ir'Virinat, galae'Enriov t'Prell s'Tal'Diann, in her current course offering at the Lasasam s'Tal'Diann (Academy of the Tal'Diann):
Arh'fvahir mnean? (What are we?)
Llea'u.
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For instance, the Romualns(Vulcans then) did fight the Vulcans who followed Surak, and in fact were responsible for his death, there is a lot more bad blood between them than the site(or Cryptic) gives credit for.
There are other little errors as well I'm not terribly familiar with the Rihannsu novels protogoth is such a fan of, but 'Tal Shiar' does not stand for 'Imperial Secret Police', It comes from 'Tal Shaya'-a Vulcan martial arts technique used to snap someone's neck.
A serviceable explanation of Romulans if you are into the specific view of Romulans created by the Rihannsu novels, but there's a lot of conflicting material when it comes to Romulans, esp when you dig into EU stuff, so IMO it presents a rather narrow and constricted view of the subject.
There was more than one group that left Vulcan in response to the teachings of Surak (or the spin his false "followers" put on those teachings). Tellus and S'task left separately, over different reasons (Tellus over the teachings related to emotion; S'task over the teachings of non-violent pacifism, which he had earlier embraced, until his experiences with those aliens), and S'task was a former student of Surak, and remained on friendly terms with him, even though they disagreed. Now, if the proto-Romulans were responsible for Surak's death, how did Surak give three swords made by S'harien which he had saved from destruction to S'task at the shipdocks as S'task and his bunch were leaving? None of this comes from Cryptic, btw.
Talu-shaya is not the origin of "Tal'Shiar." Some fans have speculated that Talu-Shaya was the inspiration for the name, but there's nothing in canon (hard or soft) which supports that claim. On the contrary, the only source I've read which gives any origin for the Tal'Shiar or their name says they were named in honor of Emperor Shiarkiek. Again, this is also not from Cryptic.
The entire point of being Romulan in the first place was not "OMG, we can't give up our emotions!" (which is NOT what Surak taught anyway, although the Vulcan establishment definitely promoted that interpretation). It wasn't even "No, we're not going to roll over and die as martyrs rather than resist would-be conquerors." It was "We don't HAVE to do this just because the rest of you want us to! We're free and we'll do what we want!" In that light, the Tal'Shiar and the Empire itself, are antithetical to what it means to be Romulan.
Not in-universe. But according to the TNG Companion Guide, the writer of "Face of the Enemy"(where the Tal Shiar were first named) did intended it as an homage to the Vulcan Tal-Shaya. At least, that's what Memory Alpha says.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tal%27Shiar#Appendices
That aside, as someone who just recently got into the Rihannsu novels, I really dig your interpretation of the Romulans.:D
That is interesting, but it suggests only that the real-world inspiration for the name was the use of a Vulcan term in TOS, not that the Romulans themselves named the organization as an homage to the Vulcan technique (spelled variously, although the first "Vulcan Language Guide" ever produced, the little pamphlet published in 1977 by April Publications, put it as "talu-shaya").
This is something I have pointed out before when dealing with Conlangs:
A person involved in the real world effort to construct a language may take inspiration from any number of sources. Tolkien, for example, used Finnish and Welsh, as well as elements of the two dialects of Hebrew, as inspiration for Sindarin, but of course the Sindar would have known nothing of Finnish or Welsh or Hebrew (although in the case in point, Vulcan is a language found in the same universe as Romulan, and the Romulans are certainly an offshoot of the Vulcans and the ancestors of both would likely have spoken the same language; even though we have to note, as Mark R. Gardner stated rather emphatically, that the planet Vulcan has more than a single language even in "the present," which is to say, long after the ancestors of the Romulans left). But if we were to assume that the language were real with a real history, a real etymology, and all the other things that have to do with real languages, then the inspirations of the real world person who coined any given term in that Conlang have little or nothing to do with the internal historical linguistics of that language. So, for example, the writer of that episode may have intended the name he came up with as an homage to the Vulcan term, but that does not mean that the Romulans came up with the name for the same reason, or from the same source. Or, as you say, "Not in-universe."
In-universe, the Romulan name has an etymology (unfortunately, nobody has done much work on constructing "Old Rihan" or "Middle Rihan" or "Early Modern Rihan" -- yet), and it may be related to several Vulcan words which begin with "tal" or "talu" ("tal-shaya/talu-shaya" is not the only such word; others are found in a much more extensive work than the original "Vulcan Language Guide," namely, "The Vulcan Language," by Mark R. Gardner and the Vulcan Language Institute, which extends to 416 pages). However, the "shiar" part doesn't look much like it would have -- or even could have -- been derived from "shaya." One is pronounced, as you know, "shee-ahr," and the other sounds like "shy-uh" to my ear (although I'll have to listen more closely the next time I watch the episode, as it looks to my eye as if it should be pronounced more like "shah-yah"), and that kind of mutation would be rather unusual. So in terms of Romulan Historical Linguistics (in-universe, as you put it), I would say it's extremely unlikely to be the source. Initially, in fact, I thought it was taken from the Rihan word "shiar" which refers to "empire," but only one specific people's imperial states, namely, the empire(s) of the Romulans (any other "empire" in Rihan is a "nneikha"). Only as I was researching for this discussion linked in the OP of this thread (scanning through some of the novels I have, and reading in Memory Alpha, Memory Beta, and Path to 2409) did I find the reference to Narviat having founded the Tal'Shiar and looked it up to get the specifics. What is stated in the source is entirely plausible, that the Tal'Shiar were named in honor of Emperor Shiarkiek, who was the uncle of Narviat's wife (the Romulan Commander in "The Enterprise Incident," Di'on Charvon, later known as Liviana Charvanek, and identified in another source as having eventually become "Praetor Thea").
Hann'yyo. (Non-modal "Thank you.")
The big thing missing that would contribute is the various groups that made up the Sundered, more specifically one political group that was less philosophically aligned with S'task called the Technocrats who were effectively behind the creation of the Remans and the rise the Queen.
Otherwise, highly informative and well written.
The "Rihannsu" series was a major source for my discussion (I'm very fond of Diane Duane's work on the Romulans), but there were other sources as well (for which I relied on Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, and of course the Path to 2409, as well as my own knowledge of the series and movies). I believe that some information from the Vulcan's X stories was incorporated into the work, but having not read those particular novels myself, I did not wish to lean too heavily on summaries by others.
Make no mistake; I could have made the Romulan Star Empire look even worse than it looks in my discussion, very easily, by relying on some information on Memory Beta that I did work into an earlier draft, but some of that information was from novels written prior to the debut of Enterprise and was not consistent with that series, so I had to remove it to stay true to canonical information, before the final draft was finished.
I did include both S'task's group and Tellus' group, and referred to the idea that there was more than one group of "dissidents" who left Vulcan (without going into detail).
Hann'yyo.
Basically, much of negative and positive tones for the Romulans in their later society was set there. If I had to synthasize between the Rihannsu lore and the Vulcan's Soul lore of early Romulus and Remus, basically there were two major cultural divides for the Romulans. Those of that gravitated towards the Ship-Clans and those that gravitated towards the Technocrats. The Ship-Clans (and their descendants) are the ones who embraced the ideals of freedom and passion, they were the ones who overthrew the Ruling Queen and from which Ael (from Rihannsu) and the Romulan Commander (female) were supposed to be descended from. They were also responsible or some of the aggressive militarism and a few of the low points of Romulan conquest (as they were driven by passion). Politically, you could argue they were in power during the Earth-Romulan War and, obviously, post-Rihannsu series for a few years.
They are (or were, given that members of the ship-clans were the more likely to leave Romulus due to both a more adventurous spirit and being often in the political minority, meaning many surviving Romulans have a good chance at being descended from them) the minority faction in the Romulan Star Empire. The larger numbers were controlled by a political faction known as the "Technocrats" that originated on Vulcan and went with the Exodus Fleet (Vulcan's Soul). There they often conflicted with members of S'task and more moderate Romulans, they were often the ones to encourage conquest and disregard for native species during the Exodus, and supported the Ruling Queen in her rise. They were also responsible for stranding a group of early settlers on Remus who came from an odd mix of Surakians who came with the Exodus Fleet and radical religious Vulcans (their name escapes me at this time) (again: Vulcan's Soul), this group, due to the radiation and an unusual interaction with a native fauna of Remus, eventually mutated into the Reman subspecies of Vulcanoids, and were effectively enslaved by the Technocrats.
I'm probably missing a lot in this summary... I would suggest reading them, as they are very informative. Obviously the Technocrats as a political party eventually died out, but their philosophy greatly influenced the Romulans, as much, if not moreso even, than S'task's.
I did find a copy of Vulcan's Heart on Thursday, but I won't start reading it until I have the entire set (Vulcan's Forge, Vulcan's Heart, and the Vulcan's Soul trilogy).
Tal'Diann (Phi'Tlaru Rihan): Na Latas Rihan u' Hluntemcaire (The Romulan Way and Reunification)
I think Romulans are a once proud, even prideful, and possibly a little concieted people, who now find themselves lost and homeless.
We are honorable, and just, giving and caring ... But those things are easy when one is part of a Star Empire, in which your race is the highest embodiment.
I liken them a little to Xerxes in 300 ... "I am a generous God" One can be benevolent when one is rich, in wealth, culture, history and population ...
Now we are a people scattered, living in a broken society, and no longer a preeminent race, but we still have within us the ability to be Strong and Honourable and if we look hard enough we can see that we are still the same people we were before the tragedy ... Maybe we don't command the "awe" from others that we used to, but are WE ourselves any different?
We don't need to perpetuate the questionable behaviors that others in the past have praticed, often I believe due more to boredom and/or paranoia, rather than actual "need".
Can we not still be the same people we were and use the Strengths (crutches?) we once took for granted, our dedication to our families, our loved ones, our friends, and our Race as the building blocks to a new, and better, civilization?
I am proud and strong, and yes, though I dislike, even despise, bending knee to anyone, I am also honest and just, and will give freely of all that I am to any who are in need, all I ask is that I be treated with respect for who I am, and not for who my ancestors were or what they or others might have done.
Looks good. That the Rom Embassy uniform?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Romulan Senatorial Robes, available from a T3 Embassy.
The twins are my Romulan Diplomatic Entourage, from New Romulus Rep.
Might get that to make a dress uniform for my Rom.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Definitely my favorite Cryptic-original Romulan clothes set, a real shame Bridge officers cannot use them.
Muahahaha!
My boffs can use the miner costume. Why would the embassy robes be any different?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Still totally worth getting, though.
How the Tal'Diann views the alliances with the UFP and Orion Syndicate/Klingon Empire:
Disclaimer: Suggestive Imagery
pricey tho, just went looking
It's not that bad. 16,000 DL & 8,000 FC
I also think this is 15% cheaper on the DL if you have a maxed out Fleet Mine, well, one with all the discount projects done anyways.
I like their look. Must make some in real life for the shower during winter time!
Romulan Institute
D'Galan - Engineer
ARGH! Whence means "From Where" so you just said "From From Where!" ARGH! GRAMMAR TRIBBLE RAMPAGE!!!!!!
Nice outfit though
Oh, alright, go read the OP again and see if you like that any better.
Sheesh, I'll write the next one in Rihan. :P
Almost made me write a rebuttal from my Colonial Romulan captain.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
Are you sure you're not a Hevam in disguise?
Romulan Institute
D'Galan - Engineer
You know you want it proto
Haha, that's what I made happen in an alternate timeline in which my seduction of Spock was completely successful aboard the Memenda. Kirk was arrested, the crew were given amnesty as I promised and released back to the Federation, and Spock stayed with me aboard our new vessel, the ch'R Enterprise.