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The Aves-class is a powerhouse
undyingzero
Member Posts: 313 Arc User
Just got mine, took her for a spin in CSE.
Holy cow, was she powerful. With common green Mk X Tac consoles, 2 Plasma DHCs, a torpedo fore and 3 turrets she was shredding things down. Was flying her in Escort-mode, and those Proton cannons are very, very powerful. I'm loving mine so far, a great substitute for my old Mirror Dhelan, which now rests in Drydock for the forseeable future.
With the -40 power inherent from having a Singularity core though, this ship is sorta begging for the 2-piece KHG/Adapted MACO set. The Aux Bonus and 25% torpedo damage is a blessing for Sci vessels, and combined with the 2-piece Solanae set she can be quite formidable.
Flying this ship in Tac mode and not using Dyson Proton damage consoles is a sin so grave self-flagellation is the only way to repent. The Proton cannons for my ship dealt around 1,400 damage with no Proton damage consoles, whilst my Plasma DHCs did 1,600+ with 3 plasma consoles. Those Proton DHCs are begging to be buffed, I tell ya.
Holy cow, was she powerful. With common green Mk X Tac consoles, 2 Plasma DHCs, a torpedo fore and 3 turrets she was shredding things down. Was flying her in Escort-mode, and those Proton cannons are very, very powerful. I'm loving mine so far, a great substitute for my old Mirror Dhelan, which now rests in Drydock for the forseeable future.
With the -40 power inherent from having a Singularity core though, this ship is sorta begging for the 2-piece KHG/Adapted MACO set. The Aux Bonus and 25% torpedo damage is a blessing for Sci vessels, and combined with the 2-piece Solanae set she can be quite formidable.
Flying this ship in Tac mode and not using Dyson Proton damage consoles is a sin so grave self-flagellation is the only way to repent. The Proton cannons for my ship dealt around 1,400 damage with no Proton damage consoles, whilst my Plasma DHCs did 1,600+ with 3 plasma consoles. Those Proton DHCs are begging to be buffed, I tell ya.
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And I agree, the Aves is totally froicken awesome and sooooo gorgeous ... Easily the best variant of the bunch appearance wise.
I'm pretty much running the same kit as you, and when I added a Blue X RCS console to her, she started dancing like ballerina! She just melts anything that gets in front of her, and can take a surprising amount of hits before you need to get her to safety and patch her up.
As for energy type, i run AP DHC's boost with the spire tac console max buff to weapons. I choose AP because i can use 360 beam mounted rear and still have subsystem targeting with cannon up front.
Will there be a trade-off though? Something else you lose to gain that?
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No. Unless, of course, you consider the 5000 Zen price tag to be the "trade-off".
Don't forget, those who want to "skip the event" and just go for the C-store version will also be missing out on critical components to the 2 4 piece sets. (assuming you want to use all those fancy abilities)
I personally enjoy flying my Aves in sci mode and using Gwell 3 and TS3 with the gravimetric photon torp.
large groups: -> sci mode, GravWell+Tykens + CRF/CSV
small groups -> tac mode, Tykens + CSV
single target (unshielded) -> tac mode, APB + CRF
single target (shielded) -> sci mode, Tykens + CRF
like the other two (when you go in tac mode with the dyson and kli ship, the sec. def. "disappear"). Not on Aves Class.... maybe a animation bug? (like the warp nacelle of the dyson class)
What ever you use, the spire tac consoles are i must.
As for damage, yes, the Proton proc happens 25% of the time you land a crit, but Romulans are all about high crits anyways, and coupled with all the consoles and rep buffs that grant CrtH, you'll have no problem nailing those Proton procs. 500 DPS is really not a whole lot of damage loss, considering if you do 5k you're pretty much set to do well in any STF-like queue.
Tac consoles add to the base damage of the weapon and each subsequent tac console doesn't add to the base damage + previous tac console buff, but again only to the base damage. So, say you have a weapon that does 100 damage, and you have a console with 20% damage buff so it adds I dunno, +20 damage. The second tac console you add won't add the bonus to the 120, but to the 100 base damage. 20% damage buff is still a pretty decent damage gain all in all, so you don't lose much in the way of damage when you use the Dyson tac consoles. Plus, they add to Acc, so Acc overflow is fun and means more crits.
That said, I think I'm keeping my Plasma DHCs (though eventually substituting them for fleet Plasma DHCs) and grabbing Plasma Dyson consoles to buff the Proton DHC's damage, as well as 4 Embassy Sci consoles for more plasma goodness. The 3-pack Dyson coming up later this month, the 2pc console set alone boosts your proton damage, as does the Dyson weapon 2pc set (console and torpedo being a fun match).
--Red Annorax
Actually it really is a duel role ship that COULD effectively compliment its captain IF done right. It can make a sci cap Sci/CC lite and Medium Spike and the same for tac with a little more pop due to tac capt skills. The hurdle I feel is the time it takes to transform it may be a few seconds but the conditions in battle could change so half through your alpha as you go into tac mode you may lose the window you are aiming for. Sort of like the Garumba just not as long.
In US, you have arms race, but in soviet Russia we race for arms!
...ok ok bad cold war arms race joke.....kill me....
But isnt it ALWAYS an arms race? If all you do is PVE, you want to be able to have good DPS the contribute to the effort. If you PVP, DPS is the thing.
HOW you deliver that DMG is up for debate, but high DPS is the thing no matter how you do it.
@Undyingzero:
Yes, roms crit a lot, and yes you will be doing proton DMG more because you crit 25% of the time which is more often because you crit more often.....
OR
you can run something which does it job 100% of the the time it crits and do THAT more often because you are a crit crazy rom......
i know i sound like an Antiproton fanboy, but i really think AP is the type for this ship and not so much because AP is a good energy type, but because there is so much going on with all the AP gear, even if you are a romulan.
FED and KDF can use the obbie core and 360 beam for +10% DMG, then you have the sub system from the beam. You can then mount DHC cannon in front without losing subsystem target. If you think 25% of crits is ok for bonus DMG, then by extension, bonus DMG from an increase in crit severity 100% of the time on 100% of crits is better. i cant see how others either do not see this, or is ok with doing less.
And yes i know the consoles boost from base DMG, but so do the dyson consoles and they boost for less, more than 10% less. with a bonus to the proton DMG which again, is only 25% of (at most) 25%.
to give you and idea:
Say base DMG is 100.
you have 3 consoles boosting 30%
Boosted, you are at 190.
if you crit 25% of the time with 75% severity, you hit 332.5 25% of the time. this is using AP.... if you hit two times every 3 seconds, then your DPS is 221.6. this however DOES NOT take into account the bonus from the AP increase in severity, which means you would be doing MORE DPS. the numbers are vastly decreased for the sake of an easy comparison.
However, if you have again, i base of 100, with a proton proc of 10. 3 dyson consoles boosting 20%(none are higher.) means you hit at 160. with the same 25% crit rate, you hit at 200. if you hit 2 times pre 3 seconds, you hit at 133.3 DPS.
BUT wait, there is the proton proc. the console boost proton by 15%, times three consoles, is 14.5 proton dmg. 25% of 25% of the time, that is to say, 1 out of 4 of your crits will be 147.8. even if you did than ALL the time, by boosting proton dmg you are doing less DMG. it would be FAR better to simply use the spire tac consoles to boost whatever energy type you choose and forget about boosting proton DMG.
say you are in a 10 minute fight and you crit 25% of the time. that means 2.5 minutes is ALL crit. but proton dmg only happens for 25% of that 2.5 minutes or .625 minutes or 37.5 seconds........my Antiproton proposal has increased crit damage for ALL 2.5 minutes.....
By comparison, any other energy type, say plasma, has a 2.5% chance to proc. So 2.5% of ALL shots can set this off, not just the crit. Now, even this isnt that often, and THIS is why Antiproton is so good, it happens, EVERY TIME you crit, which is more than the 2.5%.
What the devs SHOULD have done is make a new energy type, proton energy, which they HAVE done with the built in DHC, which has a 2.5% chance on ALL shots, like everything else.....
"What about the Proton DHC, it will hit hard 100% of the time!" True, but your other 5 weapons are gimped. My proposed build gimps one weapon to boost the other five.
"Fine then, but i can still use protonic polaron weapons, boost by spire consoles. and have the proton bonus proc dmg as a plus." True, BUT, Unless, you either run all beams, which means, you cant exploit the DHC, OR you include a beam in the rear, lowering your frontal DPS, you lose subsystem targeting. if you dont care for that anyway.....why are you in a sci ship again? run a cruiser if you are using beams and go A2B, or and escort if you want DHC.......
Bottomline, if you care about DPS, and you should even if you just PVE, (see top of post), then using the dyson consoles is a NONO. Before you even consider energy type, using those should be OUT. Secondly, AP "procs" more than anything, even if it isnt really a "proc".
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
PO the one skill slightly more useful than BP. It would almost be better to run A2B with the doff. Its a skill that takes up a Boff power so you can re-use the other 5 boff powers faster. I am sure there are builds it is useful but for the most part it is a wasted skill. In reality it should be a passive tied to a Photonic Boff.
I'm not really gimping anything because a console adds, it doesn't substract. While the bonus from purple Mk XII Dyson tac consoles is less than a Mk XII purple non-Tac console (20% vs 30%) the 'loss' in damage isn't really massive for me, so they don't bother me in the least. I did, however, decide against Protonic Polaron DHCs and will instead get Fleet Plasma DHCs sometime in the future, though I'll get the Dyson consoles nevertheless and will buff the damage of both, as well as Romulan Embassy Sci consoles (and since I have 4 Sci slots, that's a fairly decent amount of extra Plasma damage).
To be honest your math is kind of off and there are other things to consider.
From just looking at procs, the type bonuses are based off of dps rather than just weapon damage. For example if you have a 100 dps ap weapon and 25% crit, your dps only increases by 5%. Crit severity is linear as long as you have a set crit chance.
Another thing, where did you get the 10 from for the proton proc. Do we even know if it could possibly crit? It also bypasses shields which is another thing to consider as the damage won't be reduced by shield damage reduction.
The numbers used arent the focus. Those were numbers i used to ease the comparison, as i stated in my last post if you read it all.......seems like most if not all, DIDNT.
of course youre doing more than 10 proton dmg.....
but if you will notice, i was being generous with the percentages to show there are ways to do more and that the dyson consoles arent the way.....
the spire consoles strangely enough i think are the way to go NO MATTER what energy type you use and no that is not a opinion, its a fact. the spire consoles boost the most. If maxing your Aves isnt what you want to do, then it reallly doesnt matter what you use. you go rainbow and use all types of energy if it floats you boat. If you are, like me, trying to get THE MOST out of this wonderful ship, and i assume we all can at least agree the ship IS wonderful, then you are looking to do more, if fact ALWAYS looking to do more.
And using protonic weapons, or the dyson consoles, is less than what could be done. Im not here to criticize all of your builds, only to maximize MINE and i will go to every thread to soak up the information from everyone i speak with to do so.
I am only saying in a prolonged fight the extra damage from ap is only marginal. The other is that you didn't compare strengths and weaknesses, only strength TO weakness. That leads to bias. The protonic polaron weapons are very stong on their own too. They can reduce damage caused, increase damage to shields while reducing regen rate, slow, and possibly reduce defense significantly for a very short time. The proton proc I have no experience with as I am only tier two but the wiki shows 160 as the damage so it would seem the damage is higher than only 10% of the weapons one shot damage. But I don't know how procs work either. Do they only have a chance to proc once per cycle or each shot hit.
PvP may end up being a different story, but I'm not entirely sure. Accuracy matters a lot in PvP, and if you're using weapons with [Acc]x3 then the Aves can get an extra 7.5% accuracy out of having the Dyson consoles equipped. The tactical focused ship from the 3-pack will get up to +10% accuracy, or the equivalent of having an extra [Acc] mod on each weapon. Whether that'll make up for lower base damage per shot on non-Proton weapons, i can't say. And of course the Protonic Polaron weapons can't have a third [Acc] modifier, and I'm not sure if the proc will make that worth it or not (maybe if everyone on a team is using them?)
I find I'm parsing better results using that than I was AP. Nothing major, just an additional 1k DPS (on average, sometimes 2-3k, depending on the team).
I don't die in STFs (the mini-RSP and Quantum Absorption are the best powers there), and have yet to try PvP with it, as a caveat.
As a general question, though, what's everyone's proton resistance?
Tim
Again, i realize the proton DMG is more than 10%, its really closer to 45%, but the numbers were not the focus. Polaron, is good, if and only if there is something to drain. Not all targets in STF, PVE, have systems to drian thus reducing Polaron's effectiveness. AP on the other hand, which only deals more DMG is good whether you pve or pvp. In pvp, while yes, you could be reducing power from what/whoever you are fighting, anyone who pvps has set up defenses to that very thing, (or they should have. most do.) Also, because most run leech, they are gaining more than polarons are draining......
I will however admit if you are using a drain build, Tykens rift and oother sci magic, COMBINED with NORMAL polaron might be OK.
But we are on a HUGE tangent because, and here is the kicker, Protonic polaron do not seem to drain AT ALL. Upon looking at the weapon in the Rep store, there is no drain proc. so the Protonic weapons do not appear to be able to even drain....
There goes THAT idea....
As for when they proc, per shot, or per volley, i honestly do not know however, considering they proc on crit, it is reasonable to assume they proc per shot.
But the numbers are facts, not an opinion. Sure build and skill comes into play, maybe i suck. I admit i am not some super gamer with loads of skill. In fact, i would call myself average, but I wanted to compare builds, not players. Ships, not pilots. In doing that, AP seems to fit this ship because of both Antiproton's DPS potential and the gear that uses AP. Namely the 360 beam(which allows you to mount cannons and because of the beam, you can still sub-system target.) and the core which goes with it. (if you are FED/KDF) And yes, people can use whatever they like. I am not saying you must use AP. In fact, i would say KDF should use their Elite fleet disruptors and throw a beam array in rear if to keep SST. that way they rip shields apart. But that is neither here nor there.
These are interesting results!!!! I would be willing to retract my entire theory if practical application shows i am wrong! Please post the two builds you used to test. i would be interested in seeing why the results are what they are. What DPS were you getting with both builds? was this is ESTF or just STF? what grade weapons were used?
so many questions have come up...lol
also is this no a romulan with their bonus cirt BOFFs?
the acc IS important. once you get to 100% acc, the "overflow" is turned into bonus cirt, both more chance and more severity. THIS might cause an increase in DPS that i didnt account for. "HOW MUCH," is the real question and another is, "Can this increase be measured?"
Moreover, the Proton Damage boost (assuming you are going for as high of Crit rate as you can get) combined with a fine set of the Protonic Polarons and a good Drain Build can make for some nasty direct to hull damage. Throw in Proton Barrage from the Dyson set and you are all set.
There is a trade-off from Romulan Plasma which is an epic set and hard to beat in terms of its pure vicious DPS but for a Drain Build it can be rather viable here.