I disagree here. I believe that PvP'ers are a significant revenue generating population. I generally see the new ships, powers, abilities, in PvP before PvE. No one min maxes like a PvP'er and will drag out the card in order to get the 3 Copies of the same doff they need.
The issue, as I see it, is not that we don't make them money... is that we do make them money. We make them money by rushing to be the first in PvP with the new shiney before counters can be developed. To that end, they do cater to the PvP crowd...
Oh sure, we may complain about how unblanced the game is... but we're still doing it... we're still dropping coin to get the latest and the greatest.
Why build anything for PvP... they will buy whatever we are creating for PvE... and that, my friends, is the truth.
Just like all PvE players have no clue about how to play and slot 3 team abilities, beam skills when using cannons and torpedoes and don't understand how to distribute shields.
As for Antonio, having no rewards for PvP is a double edged sword. While you don't want people to just PvP for the rewards or do it to farm (yes I've seen people not even try for the daily chest in GW2 sometimes) on the other hand if there is nothing to be gained from it then there is also no reason to do it in a grind driven game.
Giving some rewards whether you win or lose but better ones to winners also helps take the edge off defeat while making victory taste a bit sweeter. I mean if you're a fresh faced newbie PvPer are you more likely to try and get better after a stomping if you get a reward or are you more likely to say "eff this s**t, I'm gonna do something for dilithium"?
Digital Heroic is $50 and Digital Deluxe is $70. And while they do not sell any PvP P2W, they do sell other items to help finance the game...along with box sales (whether physical box sales or digital downloads).
That $50 that somebody pays to get into the game - is more than a player in STO ever has to pay...a STO player can play without ever contributing a dime to Cryptic (ie they never convert Dil to Zen never buy an item off the Exchange that had to be bought with Zen at some point).
Those box costs and the other sales help to subsidize the operation of PvP in GW2.
Hence, my suggestion earlier in the thread to offer a "vanilla" form of PvP in STO bought with a PvP Access Pass...to help subsidize the cost of it, since by going "vanilla" - you'd end up removing the revenue stream. Course, the single response to that post was a guy that didn't like what I had to say about his post...meh, so whatever. But some of the suggestions (many of the suggestions in general) leave me wondering if this is people's first MMO...cause they're ignoring 16+ years of problems that have come up time and time again with their suggestions...meh, so whatever.
I can't remember what I paid for my box copy of STO but it was in the 50 dollar range. This game sold boxes as well... anyone that was here for the full 4 years paid the box price as well. By the logic of box price not existing here... I guess GW will go P2W next year... which I think anyone that has played Anet games knows won't happen. Cryptic doesn't have that sort of cred with PvPers because they have done nothing at all to earn it.
If you have Sub ticket PvP you might as well sell this game to EA... and that form of PvP would never take off.
Sometimes when you run a F2P game its about butts in seats more then cashing in on every little aspect of a game. I won't claim to know better then PWE in regard to how to put together a grindcore game that keeps people paying. I doubt they ever do something like Anet and give us a low cost Enjoyable balanced PvP game.
They really should look over there and take some notes though. No one I know that has or does a lot of anet Arena pvp doesn't also have all the shiny stuff for there toons. They have a 2 tiered PvP system with an open zone where people gladly go and grind anything in the game they feel they need to compete there. On the flip side they have a much better balanced Areana system they can jump into. Everyone is different so some players stick to one or the other as well. My point is by offering it they keep more people around playing both modes... and I don't think they loose money by not charging every single time possible. Quite the opposite, they earn respect and customer confidence. Its why I have zero issues with spending a few bucks to buy fluff stuff in GW... cause its fun. I would never ever ever ever buy a Uniform back from Cryptic. Why is that... I obviously like Trek much more then what ever GW IP is all about. Its because one developer I respect and spending the money almost feels like a tip. The other who's game sadly for me I enjoy a lot more, won't get a red cent from me until they earn it. (Yes I know all my grinding and market participation makes them money, small moral victory that it isn't out of my own pocket)
I can't remember what I paid for my box copy of STO but it was in the 50 dollar range. This game sold boxes as well... anyone that was here for the full 4 years paid the box price as well. By the logic of box price not existing here... I guess GW will go P2W next year... which I think anyone that has played Anet games knows won't happen. Cryptic doesn't have that sort of cred with PvPers because they have done nothing at all to earn it.
It's not a dance of What Was...What If...but of What Is. There is no box cost to play STO. Correct? The game went F2P over two years ago. There have not been box sales in that period - thus, there are no box sales. That there were box sales before that period - has nothing to do with continued box sales...since there have not been any continued box sales.
There's three basic models: P2P, B2P, and F2P. Each of those can include xpacs, DLCs, RMTs, etc, etc, etc. What separates them is that B2P does not have a sub...F2P has neither the sub nor box sale. It's all about revenue vs. operating costs and thus profit.
That STO was P2P (which included box sales and a sub) doesn't matter - since the game's been F2P for over two years and is currently F2P. Fantasizing about what ANet might or might not do with GW2 doesn't matter - since the game is B2P+ at the moment.
Even if one were to try to compare the revenue streams - that's still ignoring the operating costs...it's not just revenue streams, it profitability. They could match the revenue but make less profit.
In the end though, ANet gamers have paid $40-50-150+ for their "vanilla" mode PvP. That "vanilla" PvP is subsidized by ongoing box sales and RMTs. To do something similar in STO, then every player would have had to shell out that starting amount (every player - not just the PvPers) and there would have to be continued box sales and RMTs to continue to subsidize it.
That's not STO...so looking for that in STO is silly, imho. Trying to compare them on any subjective matter of trust/reputation/etc is garbage...when in the end it's just about revenue, operating cost, and profit...and what can be offered to maintain that.
If P2P was still the best model for STO, then you can bet your TRIBBLE that PWE would have it as P2P. If B2P was the best model, again - they'd be there with a B2P model. F2P has rocked for them...it's what PWE does with so many games. But that's going to mean that PvP is what PvP is...P2W and unbalanced.
Want "vanilla" PvP in STO...no different than GW2, somebody's got to pay for it. Either through access passes or having it being subsidized by other players...it has to be paid for - there are operating costs involved that have to be covered. It's not like them tossing out a few free items here and there as incentives - items that basically have no cost to Cryptic or a cost that's easily covered by the expected return. "Vanilla" PvP would have ongoing operating costs that need to be covered...so how would those be covered?
I don't think we agree on the thinking behind Anets "vanilla" pvp mode.
You attest that they only do that because they sell boxes so its paid for.
I am saying they don't only do it because they sell boxes. They do it for the following reasons.
Credibility with there customers. (Gamers) This is the same reason companies advertise... they do it to attract more business in the future. That includes both current and future customers. There are plenty of games all of us could be playing, if we are serious about PvP we look for features that sell that game style.
I am saying that not every thing a game company does in the scope of a MMO style game should be about short term gain. Anet knows this... they don't provide balanced fair (as possible) PvP modes... because its a great instant cash model. They do it because it is a FANTASTIC long term business model.
If you want to know if there thinking is right ... think 4 years from now. Lets say PvP games are big here once more.. and all the production cos want to hit the market. Cryptic announces a new title and Anet does the same... new IPs no advantage to either other then the brand name. Which sells more copies ?
I can tell you for sure I could go down my list of Friends in game that don't log in anymore. A "vanilla" pvp mode... would have kept 80% of them logging in. At least often enough that there was a chance Cryptic would have made more $. Because if your playing the game your going to do more then just log in do 20 areana matches and log out. Chances are as a Trek lover you might check out that new Dorn or Russ voiced episode. Ect Ect. Honestly in this game they could even still get away with Cstore ships... and Lockbox ships allowed in PvP. They could easily do Vanilla Lite style and everyone would be happy with that.
Anyway my point is for Anet there arena PvP isn't paid for by box copies. Everyone that keeps the game patched and ready to go is a potential customer. I know plenty of people that have GW2 don't play often anymore but if you ask them there game is patched.
Credibility with there customers. (Gamers) This is the same reason companies advertise... they do it to attract more business in the future. That includes both current and future customers. There are plenty of games all of us could be playing, if we are serious about PvP we look for features that sell that game style.
I am saying that not every thing a game company does in the scope of a MMO style game should be about short term gain. Anet knows this... they don't provide balanced fair (as possible) PvP modes... because its a great instant cash model. They do it because it is a FANTASTIC long term business model.
Indeed.
I can tell you that while I was interested at first, I will no longer touch NWN with the 10 foot pole. Take a look at the sad state of CO.
I've lost a lot of faith in Cryptic as a developer of games, I'm still here because of my friends, my fleet, because no other game has captured my attention yet.
Sometimes a dev drops us a line, lights up a little torch and that gives me faith in them, personally, as an individual developer.
Short-term gains are shortsighted, because it's not just the reputation of the game at stake.
I don't think we agree on the thinking behind Anets "vanilla" pvp mode.
You attest that they only do that because they sell boxes so its paid for.
It's not a case of why they do it...it's a case of how they do it. It has to be paid for, no? It's as simple as that. Box sales and RMTs is how they fund the game. Part of those box sales could be attributed to PvP. The RMTs can't - not outside of being considered a subsidy. Without either box sales or a subscription, then "vanilla" PvP would have to be completely subsidized by some other form of revenue.
It would be akin to Cryptic selling ship costumes to folks so they could fund PvP development. The operating and development costs have to be covered in some form. Cryptic can't say that X% of box sales goes toward PvP development and operating costs. The box sales don't exist.
I am saying they don't only do it because they sell boxes. They do it for the following reasons.
Credibility with there customers. (Gamers) This is the same reason companies advertise... they do it to attract more business in the future. That includes both current and future customers. There are plenty of games all of us could be playing, if we are serious about PvP we look for features that sell that game style.
I only know of one game on the market like that at the moment.
I am saying that not every thing a game company does in the scope of a MMO style game should be about short term gain. Anet knows this... they don't provide balanced fair (as possible) PvP modes... because its a great instant cash model. They do it because it is a FANTASTIC long term business model.
What Cryptic/PWE does is not just about quick infusions of cash and short term goals...I'm not sure what gives you that impression. Sure, I think Geko's a little delusional about STO having a robust endgame - but that's because it's not what I consider a robust endgame - looking around the various zone chats - over in the general forums out there...lol, it's pretty damn robust for what those folks are looking for, eh? I got ticked not long ago, thinking that Geko was making the average player in STO out to be a moron...but you know, if you look around zone/general discussion/etc - they pretty much are.
So yeah, one can stand back and see where they have plan not only for short term infusions of revenue, but mid term, and long term.
Just because they're building a product that Player A may not be a fan of...doesn't mean that what Cryptic is doing is bad. It's just not Player A's thing. It's not really my thing either (the games I enjoyed all died - either being shutdown or turned into what I consider garbage), but there's nothing really out there that is my thing - I like Trek, so here I am.
If you want to know if there thinking is right ... think 4 years from now. Lets say PvP games are big here once more.. and all the production cos want to hit the market. Cryptic announces a new title and Anet does the same... new IPs no advantage to either other then the brand name. Which sells more copies ?
There's little doubt, imho, that ANet would likely sell more copies if both were to do a box sale (digital sale). Cryptic is tied to PWE and PWE generally has a much less favored view out there than ANet does...period.
Though personally - I wouldn't touch the ANet game. I'm not a fan of their style of games - the mechanics. Cryptic on the other hand...tends to hit that middleground between what ANet does and what I prefer, so the overall interaction is preferable to me. It's one of the reasons I used to get into arguments with somebody on the forums all the time - he'd love it if everything were more like X...while I've been enjoying Y for over 30 years.
I can tell you for sure I could go down my list of Friends in game that don't log in anymore. A "vanilla" pvp mode... would have kept 80% of them logging in. At least often enough that there was a chance Cryptic would have made more $. Because if your playing the game your going to do more then just log in do 20 areana matches and log out. Chances are as a Trek lover you might check out that new Dorn or Russ voiced episode. Ect Ect. Honestly in this game they could even still get away with Cstore ships... and Lockbox ships allowed in PvP. They could easily do Vanilla Lite style and everyone would be happy with that.
They're very aware of endcap shopping mentality that exists - but like I mentioned previously, there's a major difference between the cost to do some stuff to get folks into the game so that they look around and other stuff...and spend money - and - operating what could basically be a standalone game. It's not reasonable to expect them to run that 24/7 for free - and - it's not reasonable to expect folks buying fluff to subsidize that for those that want to do that.
Anyway my point is for Anet there arena PvP isn't paid for by box copies. Everyone that keeps the game patched and ready to go is a potential customer. I know plenty of people that have GW2 don't play often anymore but if you ask them there game is patched.
Everybody that PvPs in GW2...has spent at least X amount of money. How much of that money goes to PvP development and operating costs...we can't say. How much of the other RMTs goes to subsidize it...we can't say. All we can say is that there are development and operating costs...and that has to be paid somehow. Simple as that...it's not free.
Short-term gains are shortsighted, because it's not just the reputation of the game at stake.
Which is why I wonder why folks think Cryptic is doing short-term gains...
Cause it's basically saying that everybody at Cryptic and PWE are complete idiots. They're not some fly-by-night company that just sprouted up, is looking to make some money, and then disappear to reappear with some new name down the road. They're in it for the long haul...
Don't get me wrong - I think some of their specific decisions are way beyond stupid...but that's not shortsightedness and it's not because they're all complete idiots. It's just because they've done something stupid. Thing is, that's imho...and...well, it's obvious that STO is not designed for a gamer like me. So what looks completely idiotic on their part to me...may be perfectly fine for their intended audience.
It seems to have gone all over the place, when the simple question was this:
Say Cryptic were to do some form of structured/vanilla PvP - where they went with some selection of skill templates, some selection of ships, and some selection of limited gear...so it was basically everybody on an even footing - where skill and teamwork would generally decide the outcome....
My two ECs: Should they put in a "VPvP" for those that want it? Sure, but not at the cost of removing the everything goes PvP. As much as I hate being victimized sometimes by perfectly designed p2w premades, I still like that STO PvP is everything goes, considering everythig p2w can be achieved by g2w. New modes and maps are what is needed, not new restrictions IMHO.
My two ECs: Should they put in a "VPvP" for those that want it? Sure, but not at the cost of removing the everything goes PvP. As much as I hate being victimized sometimes by perfectly designed p2w premades, I still like that STO PvP is everything goes, considering everythig p2w can be achieved by g2w. New modes and maps are what is needed, not new restrictions IMHO.
I was thinking along the lines of that - in a sense - trying to think of a means to "pay" for a more balanced version/mode for folks. Course, it wouldn't be "vanilla" as much as it not being a case of the haves and have-nots...so to speak.
Showcase PvP
Arena
CnH
Private PvP
Arena
CnH
Ker'tat-like PvPvE zones
Private PvP and the PvPvE zones would pretty much be what we have.
Showcase PvP on the other hand, would be that template sort of thing. Players select from a group of character templates and ships...for the most part, everything is balanced - nobody in a RA ship with a fresh 50 fighting the guy in the Box ship with the T5s across the board geared out the wahzoo 50. There might still be the arguments about whether something is OP - but those aren't arguments confined to PvP to begin with, eh?
Much like Cryptic has done with a few of the FEs where they allow folks to fly a version of a ship that's coming to the Zen Store or Lobi Store...Showcase PvP would involve flying the latest and greatest ships. Basically, it would be an advertisement for the ships. Folks would see how awesome the ships are...and...would want to get them for Private PvP, PvPvE, PvE, and just to have what they consider to be an awesome ship.
Thus - as a means of driving/increasing ship sales revenue - the Showcase PvP could pay for itself.
Which is why I wonder why folks think Cryptic is doing short-term gains...
Look around. That is pretty much all we have to do to come to that conclusion. They are reactionary in almost every thing they do... and they have setup a next loxbox / cstore ship cash grab scheme. I mean come on grind "free" ships where its obvious they did no work on the grind as its the same mission as last year... if anything I would propose they quite purposely made the grind annoying. As there is a $ grab option.
I would love to believe they are Artists out to make a great product first. However....
When I worded that sentence that way, I am going to bet most people reading it laughed out loud.
Of course other companies like Anet are out to make profit. Making money creating video games isn't about suffering for your art. However where most companies won't cross a line where they feel it steps on there artistic expression. Cryptic goes there every time for the quick $. Imagine if any of the current ship stats where shown to you 3 years ago... you would have instantly understood them to be broken. Console powers ? Rep bonuses ? Yes I know most of it offsets... still its all about the next boost you will have for awhile before the content/other players catch up... then it will be about the next boost. None of them are free.
Much like Cryptic has done with a few of the FEs where they allow folks to fly a version of a ship that's coming to the Zen Store or Lobi Store...Showcase PvP would involve flying the latest and greatest ships. Basically, it would be an advertisement for the ships. Folks would see how awesome the ships are...and...would want to get them for Private PvP, PvPvE, PvE, and just to have what they consider to be an awesome ship.
Thus - as a means of driving/increasing ship sales revenue - the Showcase PvP could pay for itself.
I can see it now...
1 cannon, 1 DBB, 1 torpedo and 1 beam array fore.
1 turret, 1 special weapon, 1 torpedo and 1 beam array rear.
Edit: Incidentally VD have you played GW2? I can see why it is buy to play, it has a massive world and a helluva lot of work has gone into it not just in systems, combat and balancing. It has a lot of design gone into the maps too as well as very good server support. I have never been disconnected from them or suffered lag, STO...it's not just a daily occurrence, more like hourly if I'm lucky.
GW2 is much bigger than STO and it's not even in space.
Everybody that PvPs in GW2...has spent at least X amount of money. How much of that money goes to PvP development and operating costs...we can't say. How much of the other RMTs goes to subsidize it...we can't say. All we can say is that there are development and operating costs...and that has to be paid somehow. Simple as that...it's not free.
You see your thinking like a Cryptic game developer... not an Anet one. (I don't mean to give those guys to much credit either).
There are facets of there game that are simply NOT about $ return. I know that seems crazy and I know it would seem nuts to Cryptic right now its evident by how they have developed there game for 4 years.
Think about this analogy.
Have you ever bought a can of Pepsi or Coke from a vending machine out side a busy store.
Cheap right... almost always half the price of any other machine you will see anywhere. Same if you go to a large University the pop machines will be stupid cheep.
Why is that ? Is it because they don't like to make money ?
Its advertising, in that indusry they will often take a loss for mind share.
Video games believe it or not are no different. Anet does the vanilla mode PvP not because there is great return in it directly... its the indirect boost to the game population.. and the good word of mouth that having that mode of PvP in the game brings them. They know most people aren't going to spend 100% of there game time doing that. A few will... so what there the cost of doing business if you will. However they are still not, not making anet money. Those are the players that are 10x more likely to be on forums like this one taking about ANET. Case in point. I bought GW2 I have bought some fluff items, almost as a ttip for those guys. Still I'm not spending tons of money on GW2. However that game mode has got me talking about there game on another companies forum site. I think that pretty much sums up WHY its a good idea to do what they have done, and why it makes no difference to them if the "vanilla" pvp mode brings in tons of $.
It seems to have gone all over the place, when the simple question was this:
Say Cryptic were to do some form of structured/vanilla PvP - where they went with some selection of skill templates, some selection of ships, and some selection of limited gear...so it was basically everybody on an even footing - where skill and teamwork would generally decide the outcome....
...how would it be paid for?
It wouldn't that's how.
It would not need to be paid for directly. It would be about promoting Star Trek Online.
For everything I have already talked about in this thread.
Its not always about how many units is something going to push. How many respecs are going to be sold ect ect. That is how Cryptic has conducted themselves and for the most part I'm fine with it I am here they need a working business model.
However if we are waiting for a business case for PvP that is going to = short term profits... I hate to say it nothing will ever get done for PvP. Because there are no provable short term profits from PvP in STO. We have all heard that this dev has said this or that... bottom line we know they don't think there PvP community is large enough to dedicate resources to. If they did in 4 years we would have more then a challange mode and a shuttle map added.
The only way this works is if Cryptic buys into and 100% believes that if they build it they will come. They have to understand that we compare them to EVERY other company we have ever dealt with, and I'm not just talking video game developers. If we, and many of us do, fee t hey are nothing but money grubbing soulless Trek Peddlers. They will loose long term no matter what, frankly they already have, imo at this point. In order to bring it back they would honestly have to go above and beyond and create some ART again. This game was inspired we all love it for a reason... they need to get back to that and give us all a reason to be on ANETS forum talking about STO.
After typing all those long posts ... I just want to add this.
Cryptic has in front of them all the elements to create something somewhat Unique in the MMO market. Just look around at what has been happening with trek PvP the last little bit.
If they did a semi stripped down PvP. (not saying remove all the lockbox ships ect ect) However reducing the needed fleet / rep grinds to have new players feel they can compete would need to happen.
They have there communities doing things like Tyler Durden... people in that community (Mancom) creating exterenal leaderboards, and TD match creation tools.
Imagine a Factionless que... that was TD style. Used back end game meta data, to auto balance teams... that was stripped down to a point where almost anyone could jump in and have fun.
Frankly they have everything they need to do it better then pretty much any other MMO developer has done in the past. It would be something for us to all talk about everywhere.
As I see STO would benifit for it... and when we go to the 8 or 9 year anniversary new players would be shocked to hear it was different before. Its also tech Cryptic could use in new titles. (which means $ return doesn't have to be immediate).
Sometimes doing the next big thing is more important then making sure the next lockbox hits a nice $ bump.
How did the OP come to the conclusion that increasing Dil rewards suddenly turned everyone onto PvP? Especially since the PvP increase of 50% is the exact same level of increase that, say, the commonly-accepted place to earn dil (aka the STF) and it's equal 50% increase?
I wonder, was it less the reward that drove people to PvP, or was it the fact that a bunch of people finally felt satisfied enough with their Dil income for the period and felt they could actually indulge in some PvP action? I mean, I see periodic discussions about how people have "finally" gotten their alt-farms to the point that by the time they're done DOffing / feeding security kitty / running dailies on, say, 5 alts, alt 1 has cycled back to the start of the sequence (full slate of completed missions, cooldown on security kitty met, etc.) so that they cap after 4-5 hours.
However, with the increased payouts, it could have been met in 3, meaning that they could take their ships into PvP-land because they had "2 hours of free time"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
im to the point that i cant stand a single thing in this game thats not pvp, and thats being LOLFAWed to death. hate is not to strong a word for the pve gameplay, the doffing, that ground voth zone i used to sorta like, and that dil mining mini game. omfg, ive never had less fun in a game then doing all 3 mining dailies at the fleet mine holding, and then doing 1 more at that other mine. that broke the game for me, the fact that that exists in game forfeits everything else thats good about it. not even a bunch of nights were i have a string of good matches will burn that experience out of my soul. grinding rep, thats always been a vile experience, voth was ok UNTIL they took away the zone dailies, seriously go F yourself whoever decided to do that. but that mini game, that number of times you have to run it for all the dailies, could you just waterboard me for dil instead? at least there would be some adrenalin and stimuli involved.
im pretty sure ive done my last grind, like ever. since this threatens my ability to stay competitive, since i cant just earn the currencys i need in pvp at more then a trickle, im not too sure were this leaves me and this game in the future. ive barely touched sto since the anniversary event, ive only run that mission once on 1 character, i could not be more turned off at what an anniversary event has devolved into.
this whole anniversary ship scheme they hatched, its beyond the pale. that ship is a total overgimmick, and to have it at more then a quarter of its potentual, you have to grind it out over 15 days, do a LONG mission 3 times per character, and then fork over $50 per faction to get it at full strength. and then your left with this apex gimic joke ship without any console flexibility. 3 packs have always been the most brazen scam crypic has ever pulled on us, its not enough to pay for a ship that interesting in its own way once, oh no you have to pay for it 2 or 3 times. at least in the past its been staggered, the release of these sorts of things. 3 at once, of these things, is insane. does anyone really like they way they look? for more then 5 minutes? this is an obscure little one off, and they are trying to make it into the grandest cash cow yet. i can only hope this collectively tanks more then the low level kdf ships and bortas combined, to theres never such a thing that pisses me off in so many way again, in the game i thought i loved.
...you're giving the kind of argument one would expect from a 12 year old that has everything in life handed to them and has no idea about the cost of anything - they just have no clue.
Do you fill up your car with gas for free? Do you live in an apartment or house for free? Do you eat for free? Heck, do you work for free? Everything costs...why people think that games should be free or only cost such a small amount...I just don't get it.
We could start with just the employees of Cryptic, eh? Think about all of their salaries - how do they get paid? Not just the developers, artists, producers - you've got marketing, accounting, legal, etc, etc, etc - you've got the custodial folks, you've got the administrative/secretarial/clerical - human resources, etc, etc, etc, etc...all those folks that need to get paid.
They all need a workplace - that's got to be paid for - not only the office space but all the utilities as well. You've got all the equipment that's going to be at those facilities, whether you're talking computers, cell phones, office phones, microwaves in the breakrooms, etc, etc, etc - there's going to be all the office supplies that are needed - there's oodles upon oodles of things.
There's going to be software licensing, various leasing aspects for equipment, and the list goes on and on...and that's before you've even started in on what they're going to have at multiple data centers.
There's just so many operating costs...that have to be met - and then - a profit turned on top of that, where part of that profit will get reinvested into the various products.
For the life of me, I've just never gotten how folks do not get that...bunch of freakin' spoiled children without a smidgen of a clue.
Its not about undervaluing there work Virus... its about valuinig MY time as a game player. Yes this is my free time and Yes I can play there game with out spending money. However having my eyes on there game is NOT free my friend. If I choose to be here grinding. That is good for them in terms of $. If I'm not around buying and trading and playing the game so that new players drop $ to jump in with me... there game is dead and they make ZERO.
Its not about being 12 and thinking they owe me... its about KNOWING what I am worth to them. I am worth more to them as a player then free. As a customer I must be respected, why would I spend time somewhere that disrespects me. If you got kicked out of a mall for going there to browse, how would that go over when you tell your friends how you feel about the place ?
You are not looking at things properly is all. I will say it right now I am into cryptic for likely $500 or so over 4 years... the last year or so I have given them nothing. However I KNOW I have made them well over 10k. I know you say WHAT are you talking about Husanak thats crazy talk. However its not think about it. I have 20 toons that I keep in the game playing... in the last year I have been logged in for hundreds of hours. I know your saying free game time Husanak your not making them money they have been making you content and running servers.... ya ya. Truth is I have been driving an economy in game... I have been selling refined D to kids dropping grandmas credit card on Zen. I have been making people want to buy X or Y lockbox to compete with my 4 year old toons. Everyone of us "vets" is worth 10x more to them in $ then we in fact pay them.
What is funny is we all say I haven't paid Cryptic anything in 1 or 2 years whatever number we all throw out. The truth is however we don't have to... but just being here in game and playing the system they have setup we are making them $$$ faster then we ever did back when we paid a $15 a month sub.
So Virus I know my worth that is all... its not about being an entitled child. Its about knowing I am NOT the one who owes them anything. lol
I tried to do that minigame once in the dil mine, and I quit halfway through.
I probably have 20+ VIP claims and 60+ of the regular ones scattered across my characters.
I'll never use them, because it will be a cold day in hell before I go mining again.
if it payed out like those vip claimed, i could stand doing one of those every couple of days i bet. you dont got to go hopin all over the damn place, they're all just right there. those dalies though, at the holding, like 15 damn times you have to do it, then you got to climb out of that hole, good god. doing that with even 1 character, i dont know how i got through it even a single time.
Some of you are burned out... Seriously! It's time to take a break from the grind and pvp. There is IRL stuff, or you can try role play if you don't wanna log off.:cool:
oh i wish i was just burnt out, but the game has changed slowly, the torcher/reward ratio keeps on crankin in the wrong direction. im not burnt out on the part i enjoy, i just cant stand to even look at any other part of it anymore. we all have our tipping point for when it becomes too much, mine's at least in squinting distance. RP, not even once
Some of you are burned out... Seriously! It's time to quit this terrible game. There is IRL stuff, better games and other things more deserving of your time/money :cool:
Fixed it for ya
It's not just burnt out, nearly every older player (2+ years) I know is seriously considering giving up, think its a combo of the 2 daily grinds so near each other, the bastardisation of the anniversary "thanks for sticking with us" event and the slow culling of a lot of things that might have been worth doing.
It's not just PvP players who are feeling it, it's a lot of people right across the game.
It's not just burnt out, nearly every older player (2+ years) I know is seriously considering giving up, think its a combo of the 2 daily grinds so near each other, the bastardisation of the anniversary "thanks for sticking with us" event and the slow culling of a lot of things that might have been worth doing.
It's not just PvP players who are feeling it, it's a lot of people right across the game.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Is the increased rewards for dill the way to "save" pvp?
With the Bonus Dill available for pvp the ques have been more available than at other times...
Ker'rat had 7 instances earlier,
had couple shuttle,
couple 5vs5,
and last time looked there was like 40 in the fed vs kdf Cap and hold, and was able to do a few also...
*to Be honest never tried/looked at the ground pvp this weekend.
So is keeping the increased rewards the way to keep pvp fairly active?
In my opinion everything else gives Dillitium at a much higher rate and at a better pace and for a lot less effort.
Q: should the increased rewards stay?
A: ______
I think you could actually mean:
"So is keeping the increased rewards the way to keep pvp fairly full of casual PUG's trying to grind more dil while provide more varied noob fodder for various premades in order to keep ego stroking fairly active?"
Thats my take on it. The problem with pvp isn't the rewards. Its the fact that unless you focus on pvp, both with your builds, voice chat and with your online acquantances, then thats exactly what you become.
What they should do is have something like arena for premades to have at it against each other, and something more of a free for all for pug players, that don't want to be hardcore pvp, but just like to do it for a bit of variation.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
"So is keeping the increased rewards the way to keep pvp fairly full of casual PUG's trying to grind more dil while provide more varied noob fodder for various premades in order to keep ego stroking fairly active?"
Thats my take on it. The problem with pvp isn't the rewards. Its the fact that unless you focus on pvp, both with your builds, voice chat and with your online acquantances, then thats exactly what you become.
What they should do is have something like arena for premades to have at it against each other, and something more of a free for all for pug players, that don't want to be hardcore pvp, but just like to do it for a bit of variation.
Um No. Not what i meant....
I used to be that noob that got his assault cruiser blown up from everything and everyone.
took awhile to learn how not to blow up to everyone and everything.
am I the the best? No! Am I "The most terrible person to ever live?" possibly?
any way....
you need dill for better gear/ or well not "need" but nice to have gear that can't get with EC/Zen/ Lockbox /Free
Dill is useful, no matter what area game you find that you want to spend time.
let me inform you of a little secret (every game with pvp. People like to team up with friends)
every game has "premades" "fleets", "clans", groups... that smash new or less experienced players. so if that's what you want to discuss, this is the not topic.
I asked should the dill bonus stay?
the response has been go play GW2, total revamp of pvp, to allegations of pandering to vet players smashing noobs. and also the removal of all dill and give marks instead.
No the way to fix PVP is to hold Cryptic accountable. More was supposed to be done with PVP by now, instead all we get is stupid grind events every few months to get ships we play around with for a couple hours and put away. Boycott events like this so they know this is not what we consider content, and won't get us to log on every day for some lame ship.
They need to know that they can't resort to grind gimmicks to get players to log on, they have to give players something actually fun to do like fixed PVP with balance and better maps and events to get them to log on.
I won't be logging on as much during this anniversary event and won't complete the project to get this ship and will also be boycotting anything else Q related in the future. I suggest others do the same. Q isn't content, PVP is.
adding rewards to matches would be simple. this alone would revolutionize my ability to play what i want and still earn what i need
every kill your team gets grants 2 fleet marks. at the end of a match, if your team won you end up with 30 marks from the match. if the score was 14/15, the losing team ends up with 28 marks. afking would not be a viable way to farm these out of a match. better yet, a chose your mark box at the end
adding rewards to matches would be simple. this alone would revolutionize my ability to play what i want and still earn what i need
every kill your team gets grants 2 fleet marks. at the end of a match, if your team won you end up with 30 marks from the match. if the score was 14/15, the losing team ends up with 28 marks. afking would not be a viable way to farm these out of a match. better yet, a chose your mark box at the end
This is a good idea and they could make new pvp events with this too. Starbase Fleet defense where KDF players get to attack a Fed starbase then it alternating the following hour or day so Feds would queue to attack a KDF starbase. The same could be done with the transport escorting event too, this would be fun trying to get the transports with player ships chasing you and trying to stop you.
Comments
Yes, no-one else at all ever min/max's like a PvPer :rolleyes:
Just like all PvE players have no clue about how to play and slot 3 team abilities, beam skills when using cannons and torpedoes and don't understand how to distribute shields.
As for Antonio, having no rewards for PvP is a double edged sword. While you don't want people to just PvP for the rewards or do it to farm (yes I've seen people not even try for the daily chest in GW2 sometimes) on the other hand if there is nothing to be gained from it then there is also no reason to do it in a grind driven game.
Giving some rewards whether you win or lose but better ones to winners also helps take the edge off defeat while making victory taste a bit sweeter. I mean if you're a fresh faced newbie PvPer are you more likely to try and get better after a stomping if you get a reward or are you more likely to say "eff this s**t, I'm gonna do something for dilithium"?
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I can't remember what I paid for my box copy of STO but it was in the 50 dollar range. This game sold boxes as well... anyone that was here for the full 4 years paid the box price as well. By the logic of box price not existing here... I guess GW will go P2W next year... which I think anyone that has played Anet games knows won't happen. Cryptic doesn't have that sort of cred with PvPers because they have done nothing at all to earn it.
If you have Sub ticket PvP you might as well sell this game to EA... and that form of PvP would never take off.
Sometimes when you run a F2P game its about butts in seats more then cashing in on every little aspect of a game. I won't claim to know better then PWE in regard to how to put together a grindcore game that keeps people paying. I doubt they ever do something like Anet and give us a low cost Enjoyable balanced PvP game.
They really should look over there and take some notes though. No one I know that has or does a lot of anet Arena pvp doesn't also have all the shiny stuff for there toons. They have a 2 tiered PvP system with an open zone where people gladly go and grind anything in the game they feel they need to compete there. On the flip side they have a much better balanced Areana system they can jump into. Everyone is different so some players stick to one or the other as well. My point is by offering it they keep more people around playing both modes... and I don't think they loose money by not charging every single time possible. Quite the opposite, they earn respect and customer confidence. Its why I have zero issues with spending a few bucks to buy fluff stuff in GW... cause its fun. I would never ever ever ever buy a Uniform back from Cryptic. Why is that... I obviously like Trek much more then what ever GW IP is all about. Its because one developer I respect and spending the money almost feels like a tip. The other who's game sadly for me I enjoy a lot more, won't get a red cent from me until they earn it. (Yes I know all my grinding and market participation makes them money, small moral victory that it isn't out of my own pocket)
It's not a dance of What Was...What If...but of What Is. There is no box cost to play STO. Correct? The game went F2P over two years ago. There have not been box sales in that period - thus, there are no box sales. That there were box sales before that period - has nothing to do with continued box sales...since there have not been any continued box sales.
There's three basic models: P2P, B2P, and F2P. Each of those can include xpacs, DLCs, RMTs, etc, etc, etc. What separates them is that B2P does not have a sub...F2P has neither the sub nor box sale. It's all about revenue vs. operating costs and thus profit.
That STO was P2P (which included box sales and a sub) doesn't matter - since the game's been F2P for over two years and is currently F2P. Fantasizing about what ANet might or might not do with GW2 doesn't matter - since the game is B2P+ at the moment.
Even if one were to try to compare the revenue streams - that's still ignoring the operating costs...it's not just revenue streams, it profitability. They could match the revenue but make less profit.
In the end though, ANet gamers have paid $40-50-150+ for their "vanilla" mode PvP. That "vanilla" PvP is subsidized by ongoing box sales and RMTs. To do something similar in STO, then every player would have had to shell out that starting amount (every player - not just the PvPers) and there would have to be continued box sales and RMTs to continue to subsidize it.
That's not STO...so looking for that in STO is silly, imho. Trying to compare them on any subjective matter of trust/reputation/etc is garbage...when in the end it's just about revenue, operating cost, and profit...and what can be offered to maintain that.
If P2P was still the best model for STO, then you can bet your TRIBBLE that PWE would have it as P2P. If B2P was the best model, again - they'd be there with a B2P model. F2P has rocked for them...it's what PWE does with so many games. But that's going to mean that PvP is what PvP is...P2W and unbalanced.
Want "vanilla" PvP in STO...no different than GW2, somebody's got to pay for it. Either through access passes or having it being subsidized by other players...it has to be paid for - there are operating costs involved that have to be covered. It's not like them tossing out a few free items here and there as incentives - items that basically have no cost to Cryptic or a cost that's easily covered by the expected return. "Vanilla" PvP would have ongoing operating costs that need to be covered...so how would those be covered?
You attest that they only do that because they sell boxes so its paid for.
I am saying they don't only do it because they sell boxes. They do it for the following reasons.
Credibility with there customers. (Gamers) This is the same reason companies advertise... they do it to attract more business in the future. That includes both current and future customers. There are plenty of games all of us could be playing, if we are serious about PvP we look for features that sell that game style.
I am saying that not every thing a game company does in the scope of a MMO style game should be about short term gain. Anet knows this... they don't provide balanced fair (as possible) PvP modes... because its a great instant cash model. They do it because it is a FANTASTIC long term business model.
If you want to know if there thinking is right ... think 4 years from now. Lets say PvP games are big here once more.. and all the production cos want to hit the market. Cryptic announces a new title and Anet does the same... new IPs no advantage to either other then the brand name. Which sells more copies ?
I can tell you for sure I could go down my list of Friends in game that don't log in anymore. A "vanilla" pvp mode... would have kept 80% of them logging in. At least often enough that there was a chance Cryptic would have made more $. Because if your playing the game your going to do more then just log in do 20 areana matches and log out. Chances are as a Trek lover you might check out that new Dorn or Russ voiced episode. Ect Ect. Honestly in this game they could even still get away with Cstore ships... and Lockbox ships allowed in PvP. They could easily do Vanilla Lite style and everyone would be happy with that.
Anyway my point is for Anet there arena PvP isn't paid for by box copies. Everyone that keeps the game patched and ready to go is a potential customer. I know plenty of people that have GW2 don't play often anymore but if you ask them there game is patched.
Indeed.
I can tell you that while I was interested at first, I will no longer touch NWN with the 10 foot pole. Take a look at the sad state of CO.
I've lost a lot of faith in Cryptic as a developer of games, I'm still here because of my friends, my fleet, because no other game has captured my attention yet.
Sometimes a dev drops us a line, lights up a little torch and that gives me faith in them, personally, as an individual developer.
Short-term gains are shortsighted, because it's not just the reputation of the game at stake.
It's not a case of why they do it...it's a case of how they do it. It has to be paid for, no? It's as simple as that. Box sales and RMTs is how they fund the game. Part of those box sales could be attributed to PvP. The RMTs can't - not outside of being considered a subsidy. Without either box sales or a subscription, then "vanilla" PvP would have to be completely subsidized by some other form of revenue.
It would be akin to Cryptic selling ship costumes to folks so they could fund PvP development. The operating and development costs have to be covered in some form. Cryptic can't say that X% of box sales goes toward PvP development and operating costs. The box sales don't exist.
I only know of one game on the market like that at the moment.
What Cryptic/PWE does is not just about quick infusions of cash and short term goals...I'm not sure what gives you that impression. Sure, I think Geko's a little delusional about STO having a robust endgame - but that's because it's not what I consider a robust endgame - looking around the various zone chats - over in the general forums out there...lol, it's pretty damn robust for what those folks are looking for, eh? I got ticked not long ago, thinking that Geko was making the average player in STO out to be a moron...but you know, if you look around zone/general discussion/etc - they pretty much are.
So yeah, one can stand back and see where they have plan not only for short term infusions of revenue, but mid term, and long term.
Just because they're building a product that Player A may not be a fan of...doesn't mean that what Cryptic is doing is bad. It's just not Player A's thing. It's not really my thing either (the games I enjoyed all died - either being shutdown or turned into what I consider garbage), but there's nothing really out there that is my thing - I like Trek, so here I am.
There's little doubt, imho, that ANet would likely sell more copies if both were to do a box sale (digital sale). Cryptic is tied to PWE and PWE generally has a much less favored view out there than ANet does...period.
Though personally - I wouldn't touch the ANet game. I'm not a fan of their style of games - the mechanics. Cryptic on the other hand...tends to hit that middleground between what ANet does and what I prefer, so the overall interaction is preferable to me. It's one of the reasons I used to get into arguments with somebody on the forums all the time - he'd love it if everything were more like X...while I've been enjoying Y for over 30 years.
They're very aware of endcap shopping mentality that exists - but like I mentioned previously, there's a major difference between the cost to do some stuff to get folks into the game so that they look around and other stuff...and spend money - and - operating what could basically be a standalone game. It's not reasonable to expect them to run that 24/7 for free - and - it's not reasonable to expect folks buying fluff to subsidize that for those that want to do that.
Everybody that PvPs in GW2...has spent at least X amount of money. How much of that money goes to PvP development and operating costs...we can't say. How much of the other RMTs goes to subsidize it...we can't say. All we can say is that there are development and operating costs...and that has to be paid somehow. Simple as that...it's not free.
Which is why I wonder why folks think Cryptic is doing short-term gains...
Cause it's basically saying that everybody at Cryptic and PWE are complete idiots. They're not some fly-by-night company that just sprouted up, is looking to make some money, and then disappear to reappear with some new name down the road. They're in it for the long haul...
Don't get me wrong - I think some of their specific decisions are way beyond stupid...but that's not shortsightedness and it's not because they're all complete idiots. It's just because they've done something stupid. Thing is, that's imho...and...well, it's obvious that STO is not designed for a gamer like me. So what looks completely idiotic on their part to me...may be perfectly fine for their intended audience.
Say Cryptic were to do some form of structured/vanilla PvP - where they went with some selection of skill templates, some selection of ships, and some selection of limited gear...so it was basically everybody on an even footing - where skill and teamwork would generally decide the outcome....
...how would it be paid for?
I was thinking along the lines of that - in a sense - trying to think of a means to "pay" for a more balanced version/mode for folks. Course, it wouldn't be "vanilla" as much as it not being a case of the haves and have-nots...so to speak.
Showcase PvP
Arena
CnH
Private PvP
Arena
CnH
Ker'tat-like PvPvE zones
Private PvP and the PvPvE zones would pretty much be what we have.
Showcase PvP on the other hand, would be that template sort of thing. Players select from a group of character templates and ships...for the most part, everything is balanced - nobody in a RA ship with a fresh 50 fighting the guy in the Box ship with the T5s across the board geared out the wahzoo 50. There might still be the arguments about whether something is OP - but those aren't arguments confined to PvP to begin with, eh?
Much like Cryptic has done with a few of the FEs where they allow folks to fly a version of a ship that's coming to the Zen Store or Lobi Store...Showcase PvP would involve flying the latest and greatest ships. Basically, it would be an advertisement for the ships. Folks would see how awesome the ships are...and...would want to get them for Private PvP, PvPvE, PvE, and just to have what they consider to be an awesome ship.
Thus - as a means of driving/increasing ship sales revenue - the Showcase PvP could pay for itself.
Look around. That is pretty much all we have to do to come to that conclusion. They are reactionary in almost every thing they do... and they have setup a next loxbox / cstore ship cash grab scheme. I mean come on grind "free" ships where its obvious they did no work on the grind as its the same mission as last year... if anything I would propose they quite purposely made the grind annoying. As there is a $ grab option.
I would love to believe they are Artists out to make a great product first. However....
When I worded that sentence that way, I am going to bet most people reading it laughed out loud.
Of course other companies like Anet are out to make profit. Making money creating video games isn't about suffering for your art. However where most companies won't cross a line where they feel it steps on there artistic expression. Cryptic goes there every time for the quick $. Imagine if any of the current ship stats where shown to you 3 years ago... you would have instantly understood them to be broken. Console powers ? Rep bonuses ? Yes I know most of it offsets... still its all about the next boost you will have for awhile before the content/other players catch up... then it will be about the next boost. None of them are free.
I can see it now...
1 cannon, 1 DBB, 1 torpedo and 1 beam array fore.
1 turret, 1 special weapon, 1 torpedo and 1 beam array rear.
FAW, TT, Target aux, CSV.
PO, ST, PSW
EptA, ET
HE, JS
EptS
Now go PvP in it and have fun.
Edit: Incidentally VD have you played GW2? I can see why it is buy to play, it has a massive world and a helluva lot of work has gone into it not just in systems, combat and balancing. It has a lot of design gone into the maps too as well as very good server support. I have never been disconnected from them or suffered lag, STO...it's not just a daily occurrence, more like hourly if I'm lucky.
GW2 is much bigger than STO and it's not even in space.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
You see your thinking like a Cryptic game developer... not an Anet one.
There are facets of there game that are simply NOT about $ return. I know that seems crazy and I know it would seem nuts to Cryptic right now its evident by how they have developed there game for 4 years.
Think about this analogy.
Have you ever bought a can of Pepsi or Coke from a vending machine out side a busy store.
Cheap right... almost always half the price of any other machine you will see anywhere. Same if you go to a large University the pop machines will be stupid cheep.
Why is that ? Is it because they don't like to make money ?
Its advertising, in that indusry they will often take a loss for mind share.
Video games believe it or not are no different. Anet does the vanilla mode PvP not because there is great return in it directly... its the indirect boost to the game population.. and the good word of mouth that having that mode of PvP in the game brings them. They know most people aren't going to spend 100% of there game time doing that. A few will... so what there the cost of doing business if you will. However they are still not, not making anet money. Those are the players that are 10x more likely to be on forums like this one taking about ANET. Case in point. I bought GW2 I have bought some fluff items, almost as a ttip for those guys. Still I'm not spending tons of money on GW2. However that game mode has got me talking about there game on another companies forum site. I think that pretty much sums up WHY its a good idea to do what they have done, and why it makes no difference to them if the "vanilla" pvp mode brings in tons of $.
It wouldn't that's how.
It would not need to be paid for directly. It would be about promoting Star Trek Online.
For everything I have already talked about in this thread.
Its not always about how many units is something going to push. How many respecs are going to be sold ect ect. That is how Cryptic has conducted themselves and for the most part I'm fine with it I am here they need a working business model.
However if we are waiting for a business case for PvP that is going to = short term profits... I hate to say it nothing will ever get done for PvP. Because there are no provable short term profits from PvP in STO. We have all heard that this dev has said this or that... bottom line we know they don't think there PvP community is large enough to dedicate resources to. If they did in 4 years we would have more then a challange mode and a shuttle map added.
The only way this works is if Cryptic buys into and 100% believes that if they build it they will come. They have to understand that we compare them to EVERY other company we have ever dealt with, and I'm not just talking video game developers. If we, and many of us do, fee t hey are nothing but money grubbing soulless Trek Peddlers. They will loose long term no matter what, frankly they already have, imo at this point. In order to bring it back they would honestly have to go above and beyond and create some ART again. This game was inspired we all love it for a reason... they need to get back to that and give us all a reason to be on ANETS forum talking about STO.
Cryptic has in front of them all the elements to create something somewhat Unique in the MMO market. Just look around at what has been happening with trek PvP the last little bit.
If they did a semi stripped down PvP. (not saying remove all the lockbox ships ect ect) However reducing the needed fleet / rep grinds to have new players feel they can compete would need to happen.
They have there communities doing things like Tyler Durden... people in that community (Mancom) creating exterenal leaderboards, and TD match creation tools.
Imagine a Factionless que... that was TD style. Used back end game meta data, to auto balance teams... that was stripped down to a point where almost anyone could jump in and have fun.
Frankly they have everything they need to do it better then pretty much any other MMO developer has done in the past. It would be something for us to all talk about everywhere.
As I see STO would benifit for it... and when we go to the 8 or 9 year anniversary new players would be shocked to hear it was different before. Its also tech Cryptic could use in new titles. (which means $ return doesn't have to be immediate).
Sometimes doing the next big thing is more important then making sure the next lockbox hits a nice $ bump.
How did the OP come to the conclusion that increasing Dil rewards suddenly turned everyone onto PvP? Especially since the PvP increase of 50% is the exact same level of increase that, say, the commonly-accepted place to earn dil (aka the STF) and it's equal 50% increase?
I wonder, was it less the reward that drove people to PvP, or was it the fact that a bunch of people finally felt satisfied enough with their Dil income for the period and felt they could actually indulge in some PvP action? I mean, I see periodic discussions about how people have "finally" gotten their alt-farms to the point that by the time they're done DOffing / feeding security kitty / running dailies on, say, 5 alts, alt 1 has cycled back to the start of the sequence (full slate of completed missions, cooldown on security kitty met, etc.) so that they cap after 4-5 hours.
However, with the increased payouts, it could have been met in 3, meaning that they could take their ships into PvP-land because they had "2 hours of free time"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
im pretty sure ive done my last grind, like ever. since this threatens my ability to stay competitive, since i cant just earn the currencys i need in pvp at more then a trickle, im not too sure were this leaves me and this game in the future. ive barely touched sto since the anniversary event, ive only run that mission once on 1 character, i could not be more turned off at what an anniversary event has devolved into.
this whole anniversary ship scheme they hatched, its beyond the pale. that ship is a total overgimmick, and to have it at more then a quarter of its potentual, you have to grind it out over 15 days, do a LONG mission 3 times per character, and then fork over $50 per faction to get it at full strength. and then your left with this apex gimic joke ship without any console flexibility. 3 packs have always been the most brazen scam crypic has ever pulled on us, its not enough to pay for a ship that interesting in its own way once, oh no you have to pay for it 2 or 3 times. at least in the past its been staggered, the release of these sorts of things. 3 at once, of these things, is insane. does anyone really like they way they look? for more then 5 minutes? this is an obscure little one off, and they are trying to make it into the grandest cash cow yet. i can only hope this collectively tanks more then the low level kdf ships and bortas combined, to theres never such a thing that pisses me off in so many way again, in the game i thought i loved.
Its not about undervaluing there work Virus... its about valuinig MY time as a game player. Yes this is my free time and Yes I can play there game with out spending money. However having my eyes on there game is NOT free my friend. If I choose to be here grinding. That is good for them in terms of $. If I'm not around buying and trading and playing the game so that new players drop $ to jump in with me... there game is dead and they make ZERO.
Its not about being 12 and thinking they owe me... its about KNOWING what I am worth to them. I am worth more to them as a player then free. As a customer I must be respected, why would I spend time somewhere that disrespects me. If you got kicked out of a mall for going there to browse, how would that go over when you tell your friends how you feel about the place ?
You are not looking at things properly is all. I will say it right now I am into cryptic for likely $500 or so over 4 years... the last year or so I have given them nothing. However I KNOW I have made them well over 10k. I know you say WHAT are you talking about Husanak thats crazy talk. However its not think about it. I have 20 toons that I keep in the game playing... in the last year I have been logged in for hundreds of hours. I know your saying free game time Husanak your not making them money they have been making you content and running servers.... ya ya. Truth is I have been driving an economy in game... I have been selling refined D to kids dropping grandmas credit card on Zen. I have been making people want to buy X or Y lockbox to compete with my 4 year old toons. Everyone of us "vets" is worth 10x more to them in $ then we in fact pay them.
What is funny is we all say I haven't paid Cryptic anything in 1 or 2 years whatever number we all throw out. The truth is however we don't have to... but just being here in game and playing the system they have setup we are making them $$$ faster then we ever did back when we paid a $15 a month sub.
So Virus I know my worth that is all... its not about being an entitled child. Its about knowing I am NOT the one who owes them anything. lol
I actually laughed out loud for real.
I tried to do that minigame once in the dil mine, and I quit halfway through.
I probably have 20+ VIP claims and 60+ of the regular ones scattered across my characters.
I'll never use them, because it will be a cold day in hell before I go mining again.
if it payed out like those vip claimed, i could stand doing one of those every couple of days i bet. you dont got to go hopin all over the damn place, they're all just right there. those dalies though, at the holding, like 15 damn times you have to do it, then you got to climb out of that hole, good god. doing that with even 1 character, i dont know how i got through it even a single time.
oh i wish i was just burnt out, but the game has changed slowly, the torcher/reward ratio keeps on crankin in the wrong direction. im not burnt out on the part i enjoy, i just cant stand to even look at any other part of it anymore. we all have our tipping point for when it becomes too much, mine's at least in squinting distance. RP, not even once
Can't say no to 96k dil and maybe 10 minutes on Nukara ground.
To reply to OP, if they started improving rewards from the start of the BS Fleet TRIBBLE.... Maybe.
Either way the event is over and PVE still reigns for rewards. Those hitting the queues were likely waiting on CDs in the PVE queues.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Fixed it for ya
It's not just burnt out, nearly every older player (2+ years) I know is seriously considering giving up, think its a combo of the 2 daily grinds so near each other, the bastardisation of the anniversary "thanks for sticking with us" event and the slow culling of a lot of things that might have been worth doing.
It's not just PvP players who are feeling it, it's a lot of people right across the game.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Amen there, Bpharma.
I think you could actually mean:
"So is keeping the increased rewards the way to keep pvp fairly full of casual PUG's trying to grind more dil while provide more varied noob fodder for various premades in order to keep ego stroking fairly active?"
Thats my take on it. The problem with pvp isn't the rewards. Its the fact that unless you focus on pvp, both with your builds, voice chat and with your online acquantances, then thats exactly what you become.
What they should do is have something like arena for premades to have at it against each other, and something more of a free for all for pug players, that don't want to be hardcore pvp, but just like to do it for a bit of variation.
Um No. Not what i meant....
I used to be that noob that got his assault cruiser blown up from everything and everyone.
took awhile to learn how not to blow up to everyone and everything.
am I the the best? No! Am I "The most terrible person to ever live?" possibly?
any way....
you need dill for better gear/ or well not "need" but nice to have gear that can't get with EC/Zen/ Lockbox /Free
Dill is useful, no matter what area game you find that you want to spend time.
let me inform you of a little secret (every game with pvp. People like to team up with friends)
every game has "premades" "fleets", "clans", groups... that smash new or less experienced players. so if that's what you want to discuss, this is the not topic.
I asked should the dill bonus stay?
the response has been go play GW2, total revamp of pvp, to allegations of pandering to vet players smashing noobs. and also the removal of all dill and give marks instead.
They need to know that they can't resort to grind gimmicks to get players to log on, they have to give players something actually fun to do like fixed PVP with balance and better maps and events to get them to log on.
I won't be logging on as much during this anniversary event and won't complete the project to get this ship and will also be boycotting anything else Q related in the future. I suggest others do the same. Q isn't content, PVP is.
every kill your team gets grants 2 fleet marks. at the end of a match, if your team won you end up with 30 marks from the match. if the score was 14/15, the losing team ends up with 28 marks. afking would not be a viable way to farm these out of a match. better yet, a chose your mark box at the end
This is a good idea and they could make new pvp events with this too. Starbase Fleet defense where KDF players get to attack a Fed starbase then it alternating the following hour or day so Feds would queue to attack a KDF starbase. The same could be done with the transport escorting event too, this would be fun trying to get the transports with player ships chasing you and trying to stop you.