Visiting ESD already rubs my "Trekkie Nerves" raw now, please don't make it worse ...
That happend to me when I see a player in the MACO armor or the Omega, and now is even worst with the new Voth set. Thouse "outfits" are even worst than bikinis, and has NOTHING to do with Star Trek.
In Star Trek we have TOS, where females goes nearly naked. We have Seven, we have Tpol, we have Lita, we have (insert sexy woman nearly naked in Star Trek).
We dont have Captain Hero with the Hero Armor.. hell, Kirk something goes shirtless.
Like I said.. players with armors in ESD is fine, but woman with big breast is the end of the world. Hell, we even have Star Fleet Admirals with Hirogen outfits now... but that is fine..
Characters of the movies/series have been seen onscreen in swimwear (Let He Who is Without Sin). Heck Troi was "naked" in one episode (Menage a Troi), not to mention the nude model that Picard was painting (A Matter of Perspective). (Not saying we should be able to run around nude.)
BOffs and Captains alike could wander their ship in swimwear because they are on their way to a holodeck. They might have to go to the bridge in said swimwear because of a Red Alert situation. ("Gee, I do wonder if that Borg Cube would wait three minutes before trying to assimilate us for me to change into my uniform so that I don't go to the bridge in my swimsuit.")
Star Trek is supposed to be about tolerance: tolerance of beliefs, cultures, etc. There might be a need, culturally, for a skimpier outfit. There might be a biological reason.
IMO lots more reasons to include swimwear than to exclude, and that doesn't even account for the fact that its a GAME that people play for FUN.
That happend to me when I see a player in the MACO armor or the Omega, and now is even worst with the new Voth set. Thouse "outfits" are even worst than bikinis, and has NOTHING to do with Star Trek.
That's patently wrong. They're in Star Trek Online, which is a Star Trek game. Therefore, it does in fact have to do with Star Trek.
But it is in favor of someone. Namely female Orions. They have an option that male Orions don't even have - the option of wearing skimpy sexy outfits anywhere. I want my male Orions to have skimpy outfits with a muscle mass slider(though a muscle mass slider for both sexes would be nice too), but I don't get that because only females do. If you say that the favor to female Orions don't exist, I disagree. Extra neutral/positive options are in favor of those who have them, and I do not see anything bad about it.
But it is in favor of someone. Namely female Orions. They have an option that male Orions don't even have - the option of wearing skimpy sexy outfits anywhere. I want my male Orions to have skimpy outfits with a muscle mass slider(though a muscle mass slider for both sexes would be nice too), but I don't get that because only females do. If you say that the favor to female Orions don't exist, I disagree. Extra neutral/positive options are in favor of those who have them, and I do not see anything bad about it.
Eh. Aside from the lack of shorts of any kind, Orion Male skimpiness is very nearly on par with Orion Female skimp.
Variety on the other hand... yeah that's a bit lacking. Orion Males are pretty much forced into this weird Frankenstein's monster/leather cowboy motif, whereas the women can range anywhere from lowly slave girl in rags to straight-up TRIBBLE mistress and everywhere in between.
Variety on the other hand... yeah that's a bit lacking. Orion Males are pretty much forced into this weird Frankenstein's monster/leather cowboy motif, whereas the women can range anywhere from lowly slave girl in rags to straight-up TRIBBLE mistress and everywhere in between.
Not to mention that female Orions(like my own is) can be completely fully clothed, which adds that much more to their spectrum of choices.
We have Seven, we have Tpol, we have Lita, we have (insert sexy woman nearly naked in Star Trek).
Seven, Leeta, T'Pol. Do you really call that "being naked" ? Yes they are sexy, stereotypical, etc... but they are not naked, or even close to swimwear. As for Leeta, she is not part of Starfleet. She is a dabo girl, wearing short clothes is part of the job.
Characters of the movies/series have been seen onscreen in swimwear (Let He Who is Without Sin). Heck Troi was "naked" in one episode (Menage a Troi), not to mention the nude model that Picard was painting (A Matter of Perspective). (Not saying we should be able to run around nude.)
I don't remember any ST episode with crew being in swimwear during duty, except for some mind control/whatever. As for a nude painting, I mean, really ? Nobody is denying nudity in ST, we just say ESD and various area are not the place for swimwear.
Now, you give all the excuses you want, people want to wear swimwear to see sexy girl on screen. Not to RP a red alert or something else.
As I said before, I don't mind swimwear on Risa, like Jadzia used to have (I don't mean the same, just wearing one). But just like Jadzia, once we left Risa, no more swimwear. Like the jetpack.
The boundaries were blurred somewhat, but they were in the Holodeck. Captain Proton and such were blurring of duty and pleasure, as were many other Holodeck episodes.
Barclay's getting into trouble with his Holodeck stuff (imitations of the bridge crew) is an example of how even Holodeck behavior was policed.
Now, you give all the excuses you want, people want to wear swimwear to see sexy girl on screen. Not to RP a red alert or something else.
I and possibly a few other posters here would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in people's mouths. Especially to win an argument. To be frank, you nor I has no idea at all what people want on a message board or why they want it unless they tell us.
Eh. Aside from the lack of shorts of any kind, Orion Male skimpiness is very nearly on par with Orion Female skimp.
Not really. Plus, the body shaping isn't very good. Instead of a nice curve where the lower back and hips meet, you get a flat wedge shape, for instance. When my Orion male was sitting down his arms became very blocky-looking. Also, the only way to get the lower backside curve is to widen the hips which causes the unfortunate (and definitely un-sexy) side-effect of giving the guy old woman hips.
There are no pants or shorts that are even as close to being as revealing or provocative as what the women can wear. The closest thing is the dancer's outfit in the hideout but that hasn't been unlocked for off-duty and BOFFs can't wear off-duty either.
And, Orion males are forced into having a permanent frown, can't have more than small eyes, and so on. All of those things reduce that appeal of them, except for players who want the angry hulk look.
Variety on the other hand... yeah that's a bit lacking. Orion Males are pretty much forced into this weird Frankenstein's monster/leather cowboy motif, whereas the women can range anywhere from lowly slave girl in rags to straight-up TRIBBLE mistress and everywhere in between.
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I mock cause there isn't a snowball's chance on Vulcan. And if, by any chance, they were to consider this, I'd be insisting they rig up the entire game to differentiate between (true) social maps and, well, call them professional maps (any place with missions or hostiles) where you can't wear any Off-duty costumes, and where you are automatically forced into one of your uniforms (or the standard Antares one if you thought you were clever and deleted all your uniform presets) on beaming down. So no speedos on ESD. If you want to go streaking, Andoria's about six lightyears that way.
But it is in favor of someone. Namely female Orions. They have an option that male Orions don't even have - the option of wearing skimpy sexy outfits anywhere. I want my male Orions to have skimpy outfits with a muscle mass slider(though a muscle mass slider for both sexes would be nice too), but I don't get that because only females do. If you say that the favor to female Orions don't exist, I disagree. Extra neutral/positive options are in favor of those who have them, and I do not see anything bad about it.
Female Orions don't exist.
It is seemingly in favor of players who prefer that their desire to have female Orions be exclusively sexy (although the Seven catsuit makes that argument difficult -- as well as the fact that even on the lowest setting the TRIBBLE are always prominent -- even my Tellarite is a show-off) be met. Variations on that idea are those who argue that developer time is best used catering to that demographic exclusively.
But, sexism, when looked at in the big picture, favors no one.
It is seemingly in favor of players who prefer that their desire to have female Orions be exclusively sexy (although the Seven catsuit makes that argument difficult -- as well as the fact that even on the lowest setting the TRIBBLE are always prominent -- even my Tellarite is a show-off) be met. Variations on that idea are those who argue that developer time is best used catering to that demographic exclusively.
What is "sexy" or not is completely and utterly subjective. Prominent TRIBBLE aren't considered sexy by everyone, nor should be treated as such. There are many hetero men(and homosexual women I'd assume) who prefer DFCs.
Not to mention that wanting your character(or BOFFs for that matter) to be whatever their definition of sexy is isn't inherently wrong at all. Whether it's you who want to gawk at the character, if you want to show it off to others, or whatever other reason.
I don't know who's arguing to cater to any specific demographic exclusively, but I disagree that any demographic should be downplayed or devalued merely based on what they want for their own characters.
But, sexism, when looked at in the big picture, favors no one.
Wrong. Sexism isn't inherently bad. By definition, everyone who isn't bisexual is sexist, and every species divided into sexes uses sexism for reproductive function. And that definitely does favor those species as a whole. Only sexism used as a form of oppression is wrong IMHO, and there doesn't seem to be any of that going on by the posters who are requesting swimsuits for their characters.
What is "sexy" or not is completely and utterly subjective.
Nope. There's a lot of research on this. For instance, most people consider clear skin to be sexier than pimpled skin -- because it suggests good health.
Prominent TRIBBLE aren't considered sexy by everyone
That doesn't mean it's arbitrary to associate them with sexiness. It's not because they're a fertility sign. Buoyant TRIBBLE indicate youth and lots of estrogen -- signs that suggest that the woman will be a good child-bearer.
However, STO's look like implants -- at least on my Tellarite -- because they're too perky.
Plus, "everyone" isn't the demographic that Cryptic chose to target when it made TRIBBLE so prominent, even at the minimum slider setting.
Sexism isn't inherently bad. By definition, everyone who isn't bisexual is sexist, and every species divided into sexes uses sexism for reproductive function. And that definitely does favor those species as a whole.
You're confusing sexual preference with sexism. Those are utterly different things.
Nope. There's a lot of research on this. For instance, most people consider clear skin to be sexier than pimpled skin -- because it suggests good health.
Yeah, it kinda is subjective. It doesn't matter what studies show what people prefer. Something can be subjective even if every single person in existence shares the same view.
That doesn't mean it's arbitrary to associate them with sexiness. It's not because they're a fertility sign. Buoyant TRIBBLE indicate youth and lots of estrogen -- signs that suggest that the woman will be a good child-bearer.
Yeah, it actually does make it arbitrary. If there exist no minds, nothing can be considered sexy. It is only from the presence of our minds that aspects of other people are considered sexy. Therefore, by definition, yes it is completely subjective.
By ignoring the demographic that considers DFCs sexy, you made the logical fallacy of Special Pleading. What we know biologically has no bearing on the fact that sexual preferences are based on opinions.
You're confusing sexual preference with sexism. Those are utterly different things.
Sexual preference is by definition sexism. I even linked the definition of sexism there for you in my previous post.
"2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women."
And for convenience, here is the definition for discrimination:
"1. an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction."
Sexual preference in part is, to put it one way, the thought process of making the distinction of the sex you wish to mate with. When you make a distinction between sexes, it is by all intents and purposes sexism.
But doesn't the fact that only most people prefer, say, big TRIBBLE, automatically deny the conclusion that sexiness is totally objective?
And if your whole argument is "STO's women target this demographic therefor STO's men should target my demographic," isn't it inherently flawed in that you assume you are the demographic they should be targeting, or are even worth targeting?
But doesn't the fact that only most people prefer, say, big TRIBBLE, automatically deny the conclusion that sexiness is totally objective?
Actually no. I explained it a bit in my last post. Even if everyone in existence agrees on one thing, that doesn't automatically make it objective. What makes something subjective is that it comes from the mind. If there is no one to think something is sexy, then nothing is sexy. Therefore, sexiness is subjective.
If there is no one to think something is sexy, then nothing is sexy. Therefore, sexiness is subjective.
lol
That's pretty funny, but not accurate. Sexiness is a human concept so without humans it is meaningless to say it doesn't exist.
What is objective is that there are biological features that tend to be correlated with sexual attraction. However, it is true that socialization can have a massive role -- such as with Chinese foot binding. But, even that has its origins in biology, because it makes women even more physically weak than they tend to be in comparison with men -- something that appealed to men at the time and which still persists today in various forms, such as high-heeled shoes. Socialization can also, to a point, be objectively studied.
That's pretty funny, but not accurate. Sexiness is a human concept so without humans it is meaningless to say it doesn't exist.
It's quite accurate, actually. Your statement that "Sexiness is a human concept so without humans it is meaningless to say it doesn't exist." does not contradict my claim. In fact, it reinforces it as subjective.
What is objective is that there are biological features that tend to be correlated with sexual attraction. However, it is true that socialization can have a massive role -- such as with Chinese foot binding. But, even that has its origins in biology, because it makes women even more physically weak than they tend to be in comparison with men -- something that appealed to men at the time and which still persists today in various forms, such as high-heeled shoes. Socialization can also, to a point, be objectively studied.
Again, biological features that are correlated with sexual attraction are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what brain function is produced to allow any opinion, what matters is if the mind is producing them or not. More Special Pleading.
Edit: Okay, let me try an analogy. Take fatty foods for example. There's the fact is that humans naturally crave fatty foods so they can store fat up to fight off things like freezing temperatures. This is objective, verifiable fact. But does that make fatty foods being delicious objective? No it certainly does not. Same thing here with if prominent T&A being sexy being objective or not. Granted, males are naturally attracted to women as shapely as possible, but it's still as subjective as me craving more lard on my cheeseburger =3
Also, I believe it's a form of the Appeal to Nature fallacy, but I'm not positive...
Edit #2: I apologize if I came off as too aggressive in this thread. =( it's a habit of mine, don't take it personal.
But doesn't the fact that only most people prefer, say, big TRIBBLE, automatically deny the conclusion that sexiness is totally objective?
The distinction between objective and subjective is problematic because everything is both subjective (because we're humans and are therefore limited in terms of our experience) and objective (there is a physical reality that we are part of even though we can't experience it fully). Human experience is mostly subjective but we also can approximate objectivity with science and we also behave according to objective rules (even our "subjective" rules are ultimately objective). The division itself is more practical than real. Everything is objective in truth but everything is "subjective" in our limited understanding of that truth.
This is similar to the distinction between natural and artificial. Everything is natural because we are part of nature, so our works are as well. But, the distinction helps us on a practical level nonetheless.
Socialization is important, not just biological motivations. But both are in play. There are psychological, sociological, and biological reasons for minority preferences, such as a preference for small TRIBBLE. (Plus, just the fact of having social mores about hiding specific parts tends to cause people to find the hidden parts alluring -- parts that may do almost nothing in other cultures because they're routinely exposed.) I am not up on all the research, but I think there is evidence that -- in general -- hetero men tend to be attracted to women who remind them of their mothers. If their mother had small TRIBBLE I suppose it's possible that a man might prefer those. Plus, a man who prefers a more masculine or athletic woman may also prefer smaller TRIBBLE. Then there are those men who prefer a natural look over an artificial look (implants), or who prefer a slim build over a curvy one for whatever reason.
What is particularly interesting is the high fashion industry where being anorexic is considered the height of female beauty (perhaps starting with Twiggy) and fashion among ordinary men where being large (at least in America) is the thing. In ancient Greece, having a large member was not considered important at all but having large accompanying bits was -- so men would actually bruise themselves to swell and look larger down there. Socialization does make a big difference, too. Being fat was considered attractive because of food scarcity in some periods and places (still is in the African Dinka culture). But, if you look at the idealized sculptures of men in Greece and Rome, the muscular swimmer's build body can be seen as a very old Western ideal for young men -- probably because muscles indicate good health and are also useful. Check out Antinous, Hadrian's lover, who was the subject of thousands of sculptures, for instance.
And if your whole argument is "STO's women target this demographic therefor STO's men should target my demographic," isn't it inherently flawed in that you assume you are the demographic they should be targeting, or are even worth targeting?
I think it makes sense to be broad enough to satisfy the vast majority of the major groups, not just young hetero men (and the occasional non-hetero woman) who like female Orions, Seven of Nine catsuits, form-fitting female clothing, and prominent TRIBBLE.
Hell I'd like swimwear just for my main. Those risa outfits already in the game are so awesome. And so practical. What if I'm on a planet killing klingons and there happens to be a pool in their base? Don't even need to change. Done and done.
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And for the KDF, for a limited time only, the Emperor's New Armor. 5000 Zen. Only the truly honorable can recognize its awesome greatnessitude.
I mock cause there isn't a snowball's chance on Vulcan. And if, by any chance, they were to consider this, I'd be insisting they rig up the entire game to differentiate between (true) social maps and, well, call them professional maps (any place with missions or hostiles) where you can't wear any Off-duty costumes, and where you are automatically forced into one of your uniforms (or the standard Antares one if you thought you were clever and deleted all your uniform presets) on beaming down. So no speedos on ESD. If you want to go streaking, Andoria's about six lightyears that way.
So there. Humbug!
No see I think the opposite. You want to beam down naked on away missions more glory to you. But the biofilters in the ESD transporters don't allow captains to beam in naked or take their pants off would be fine.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
No see I think the opposite. You want to beam down naked on away missions more glory to you. But the biofilters in the ESD transporters don't allow captains to beam in naked or take their pants off would be fine.
It's funny that a topic about swimwear somehow is supposed to be about players wanting naked toons. :rolleyes:
Orion female boffs can wear bikinis , but you need to have the voth uniform available in the lobystore, then you change the regular female belt by a voth one and tadam you have a boff wearing bikini
Orion female boffs can wear bikinis , but you need to have the voth uniform available in the lobystore, then you change the regular female belt by a voth one and tadam you have a boff wearing bikini
Also works with the flower belt from Risa.
Zinc: The universe of Star Trek Online is shaped and changed by the actions of the players...expect to see new planets and races discovered that were unknown the last time you logged in."
There is no reason why we need this in STO...especially Boffs running around in bikinis.
People like going on about how it's "canon", well maybe it was canon for random women Kirk ran into on his journey but did you see Uhura report for duty in clothing like that? Did nurse Chapel show up to sick bay in a bathing suit?
I must of missed the episode where Kes was assisting the Doctor in a bikini and the episode where 7 of 9 was on the bridge and only thing covering her was the inoperable Borg implants she had left over.
We're Starfleet Officers/Klingon Warriors/Romulan Operatives(?) not scantily clad girl number 3 from random planet 74.
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Comments
That happend to me when I see a player in the MACO armor or the Omega, and now is even worst with the new Voth set. Thouse "outfits" are even worst than bikinis, and has NOTHING to do with Star Trek.
In Star Trek we have TOS, where females goes nearly naked. We have Seven, we have Tpol, we have Lita, we have (insert sexy woman nearly naked in Star Trek).
We dont have Captain Hero with the Hero Armor.. hell, Kirk something goes shirtless.
Like I said.. players with armors in ESD is fine, but woman with big breast is the end of the world. Hell, we even have Star Fleet Admirals with Hirogen outfits now... but that is fine..
Sorry for bad English.
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BOffs and Captains alike could wander their ship in swimwear because they are on their way to a holodeck. They might have to go to the bridge in said swimwear because of a Red Alert situation. ("Gee, I do wonder if that Borg Cube would wait three minutes before trying to assimilate us for me to change into my uniform so that I don't go to the bridge in my swimsuit.")
Star Trek is supposed to be about tolerance: tolerance of beliefs, cultures, etc. There might be a need, culturally, for a skimpier outfit. There might be a biological reason.
IMO lots more reasons to include swimwear than to exclude, and that doesn't even account for the fact that its a GAME that people play for FUN.
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Eh. Aside from the lack of shorts of any kind, Orion Male skimpiness is very nearly on par with Orion Female skimp.
Variety on the other hand... yeah that's a bit lacking. Orion Males are pretty much forced into this weird Frankenstein's monster/leather cowboy motif, whereas the women can range anywhere from lowly slave girl in rags to straight-up TRIBBLE mistress and everywhere in between.
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Not to mention that female Orions(like my own is) can be completely fully clothed, which adds that much more to their spectrum of choices.
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I don't remember any ST episode with crew being in swimwear during duty, except for some mind control/whatever. As for a nude painting, I mean, really ? Nobody is denying nudity in ST, we just say ESD and various area are not the place for swimwear.
Now, you give all the excuses you want, people want to wear swimwear to see sexy girl on screen. Not to RP a red alert or something else.
As I said before, I don't mind swimwear on Risa, like Jadzia used to have (I don't mean the same, just wearing one). But just like Jadzia, once we left Risa, no more swimwear. Like the jetpack.
http://www.jennifer-lien.com/JenniferLien/jlpics10/ALTER05N.jpg
http://www.jennifer-lien.com/JenniferLien/jlpics10/ALTER07N.jpg
The boundaries were blurred somewhat, but they were in the Holodeck. Captain Proton and such were blurring of duty and pleasure, as were many other Holodeck episodes.
Barclay's getting into trouble with his Holodeck stuff (imitations of the bridge crew) is an example of how even Holodeck behavior was policed.
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There are no pants or shorts that are even as close to being as revealing or provocative as what the women can wear. The closest thing is the dancer's outfit in the hideout but that hasn't been unlocked for off-duty and BOFFs can't wear off-duty either.
And, Orion males are forced into having a permanent frown, can't have more than small eyes, and so on. All of those things reduce that appeal of them, except for players who want the angry hulk look. And the body modeling and complexions are better.
And for the KDF, for a limited time only, the Emperor's New Armor. 5000 Zen. Only the truly honorable can recognize its awesome greatnessitude.
I mock cause there isn't a snowball's chance on Vulcan. And if, by any chance, they were to consider this, I'd be insisting they rig up the entire game to differentiate between (true) social maps and, well, call them professional maps (any place with missions or hostiles) where you can't wear any Off-duty costumes, and where you are automatically forced into one of your uniforms (or the standard Antares one if you thought you were clever and deleted all your uniform presets) on beaming down. So no speedos on ESD. If you want to go streaking, Andoria's about six lightyears that way.
So there. Humbug!
It is seemingly in favor of players who prefer that their desire to have female Orions be exclusively sexy (although the Seven catsuit makes that argument difficult -- as well as the fact that even on the lowest setting the TRIBBLE are always prominent -- even my Tellarite is a show-off) be met. Variations on that idea are those who argue that developer time is best used catering to that demographic exclusively.
But, sexism, when looked at in the big picture, favors no one.
Not to mention that wanting your character(or BOFFs for that matter) to be whatever their definition of sexy is isn't inherently wrong at all. Whether it's you who want to gawk at the character, if you want to show it off to others, or whatever other reason.
I don't know who's arguing to cater to any specific demographic exclusively, but I disagree that any demographic should be downplayed or devalued merely based on what they want for their own characters.
Wrong. Sexism isn't inherently bad. By definition, everyone who isn't bisexual is sexist, and every species divided into sexes uses sexism for reproductive function. And that definitely does favor those species as a whole. Only sexism used as a form of oppression is wrong IMHO, and there doesn't seem to be any of that going on by the posters who are requesting swimsuits for their characters.
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However, STO's look like implants -- at least on my Tellarite -- because they're too perky.
Plus, "everyone" isn't the demographic that Cryptic chose to target when it made TRIBBLE so prominent, even at the minimum slider setting. You're confusing sexual preference with sexism. Those are utterly different things.
Yeah, it actually does make it arbitrary. If there exist no minds, nothing can be considered sexy. It is only from the presence of our minds that aspects of other people are considered sexy. Therefore, by definition, yes it is completely subjective.
By ignoring the demographic that considers DFCs sexy, you made the logical fallacy of Special Pleading. What we know biologically has no bearing on the fact that sexual preferences are based on opinions.
Well that is your opinion, and I respect that.
So you claim to know what Cryptic was thinking when they developed this game...?
Sexual preference is by definition sexism. I even linked the definition of sexism there for you in my previous post.
"2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women."
And for convenience, here is the definition for discrimination:
"1. an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction."
Sexual preference in part is, to put it one way, the thought process of making the distinction of the sex you wish to mate with. When you make a distinction between sexes, it is by all intents and purposes sexism.
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But doesn't the fact that only most people prefer, say, big TRIBBLE, automatically deny the conclusion that sexiness is totally objective?
And if your whole argument is "STO's women target this demographic therefor STO's men should target my demographic," isn't it inherently flawed in that you assume you are the demographic they should be targeting, or are even worth targeting?
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
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That's pretty funny, but not accurate. Sexiness is a human concept so without humans it is meaningless to say it doesn't exist.
What is objective is that there are biological features that tend to be correlated with sexual attraction. However, it is true that socialization can have a massive role -- such as with Chinese foot binding. But, even that has its origins in biology, because it makes women even more physically weak than they tend to be in comparison with men -- something that appealed to men at the time and which still persists today in various forms, such as high-heeled shoes. Socialization can also, to a point, be objectively studied.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective?s=t
Whether or not it's a human concept is irrelevant. If no mind is around to think something is X, then X is subjective.
Again, biological features that are correlated with sexual attraction are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what brain function is produced to allow any opinion, what matters is if the mind is producing them or not. More Special Pleading.
Edit: Okay, let me try an analogy. Take fatty foods for example. There's the fact is that humans naturally crave fatty foods so they can store fat up to fight off things like freezing temperatures. This is objective, verifiable fact. But does that make fatty foods being delicious objective? No it certainly does not. Same thing here with if prominent T&A being sexy being objective or not. Granted, males are naturally attracted to women as shapely as possible, but it's still as subjective as me craving more lard on my cheeseburger =3
Also, I believe it's a form of the Appeal to Nature fallacy, but I'm not positive...
Edit #2: I apologize if I came off as too aggressive in this thread. =( it's a habit of mine, don't take it personal.
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This is similar to the distinction between natural and artificial. Everything is natural because we are part of nature, so our works are as well. But, the distinction helps us on a practical level nonetheless.
Socialization is important, not just biological motivations. But both are in play. There are psychological, sociological, and biological reasons for minority preferences, such as a preference for small TRIBBLE. (Plus, just the fact of having social mores about hiding specific parts tends to cause people to find the hidden parts alluring -- parts that may do almost nothing in other cultures because they're routinely exposed.) I am not up on all the research, but I think there is evidence that -- in general -- hetero men tend to be attracted to women who remind them of their mothers. If their mother had small TRIBBLE I suppose it's possible that a man might prefer those. Plus, a man who prefers a more masculine or athletic woman may also prefer smaller TRIBBLE. Then there are those men who prefer a natural look over an artificial look (implants), or who prefer a slim build over a curvy one for whatever reason.
What is particularly interesting is the high fashion industry where being anorexic is considered the height of female beauty (perhaps starting with Twiggy) and fashion among ordinary men where being large (at least in America) is the thing. In ancient Greece, having a large member was not considered important at all but having large accompanying bits was -- so men would actually bruise themselves to swell and look larger down there. Socialization does make a big difference, too. Being fat was considered attractive because of food scarcity in some periods and places (still is in the African Dinka culture). But, if you look at the idealized sculptures of men in Greece and Rome, the muscular swimmer's build body can be seen as a very old Western ideal for young men -- probably because muscles indicate good health and are also useful. Check out Antinous, Hadrian's lover, who was the subject of thousands of sculptures, for instance. I think it makes sense to be broad enough to satisfy the vast majority of the major groups, not just young hetero men (and the occasional non-hetero woman) who like female Orions, Seven of Nine catsuits, form-fitting female clothing, and prominent TRIBBLE.
I'm gonna create a new toon called ... Capt. Kremmen.
He'll have a first officer called Carla (Green TOS, Nurse outfit and white 7 of 9 boots)
The rest of his BoFF's are to be called Gitfinger, Gonad, Schmuckstein, Threllmer and Fooman.
And his ship will be called Troll-1 (maybe a Rapier or Maelstrom)
No see I think the opposite. You want to beam down naked on away missions more glory to you. But the biofilters in the ESD transporters don't allow captains to beam in naked or take their pants off would be fine.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
http://www.fashion-era.com/images/Victorians/swimearlyvics400new.jpg
There is no reason why we need this in STO...especially Boffs running around in bikinis.
People like going on about how it's "canon", well maybe it was canon for random women Kirk ran into on his journey but did you see Uhura report for duty in clothing like that? Did nurse Chapel show up to sick bay in a bathing suit?
I must of missed the episode where Kes was assisting the Doctor in a bikini and the episode where 7 of 9 was on the bridge and only thing covering her was the inoperable Borg implants she had left over.
We're Starfleet Officers/Klingon Warriors/Romulan Operatives(?) not scantily clad girl number 3 from random planet 74.