I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Taking the argument to that extreme doesn't do anything other than dismiss the problem and defend Cryptic... For example, if we were talking about some mass murderer that shot up a public place and you came in and said "Yeah, but he's no ADOLF HITLER! Now THAT was a bad guy!" you're just dismissing any complaints and ignoring the facts at hand.
Regardless of your thoughts on the grind level of Diablo 2, THIS game, right here and now, is going to pot and doing so very quickly.
My point is that "grind" is an integral part of all MMOs... It's the core focus of making content "replayable".
Most of what people bemoan as "grind" in STO is entirely optional. I used the Zod rune as an example because (almost) ALL high level characters In D2:X use them. Why? Equipment repair costs in D2 are INSANE at high levels. That is one thing I will never miss.... ever. It's especially bad for Melee characters since they'd damage their weapons just by using them....
No it was a discussion about zen/c-store changes which means it should be in the c-store, zen and promotions area. (PS - No, I didn't move it :P)
I'm waiting to see how this actually gets implemented and if there are any other changes that would make these almost a necessity to get things done (which I haven't seen any so it could be paranoia on that part). I do like the idea though as it helps those of us that really don't have a lot of time get as much done in a day as possible, even if we have to fork out zen to do it.
I would question what the true nature of the discussion was... as the topic was more a concern about reduction in calendar hourly options and the addition/need to buy tokens instead. Wasn't really about the issues of c-store changes from my viewpoint but I'll concede your point as you all make the decisions.
I since listened to Gecko on the podcast and now most definitely know its coming. I agree with you as well as to it being a benefit to a lot of people even myself. I just don't want to see the ability to get bonus marks tucked away to a weekend every once in awhile unless you buy the token. I'm sure if its awful enough rage will ensue and it will change like everything else does.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
No that would be too easy. They must worship the RNG by wearing +magic find gear. ALL DAY, EVERY DAY! :PMy point is that "grind" is an integral part of all MMOs... It's the core focus of making content "replayable".
Most of what people bemoan as "grind" in STO is entirely optional. I used the Zod rune as an example because (almost) ALL high level characters In D2:X use them. Why? Equipment repair costs in D2 are INSANE at high levels. That is one thing I will never miss.... ever. It's especially bad for Melee characters since they'd damage their weapons just by using them....
STO has less than half the grind D2 did...
Well, to a point I agree. Grind is a normal part of MMOs, which by itself is fine.
BUT...unlike most MMOs, STO has little point in it's grind. You grind so you can grind. Not really for harder content, most of it can be pretty easy once you reach a certain skill level. There's nothing to achieve for really, outside of NWS or PvP.
It's good they seem to be adding more story content a bit more often now, so that is something. While it's still fairly rare, that is a problem most MMOs tend to have though.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Being unemployed with all the time in the world. It takes time but cost you no cash.
If you're hardworking, with paycheck and little time...
See? There is a balance to things. -Only stupid poor people will pay for this option.
My point is that "grind" is an integral part of all MMOs... It's the core focus of making content "replayable".
You're using "grind" too lightly. There's what's generally and casually referred to as "grind" and this is a bit tongue in cheek. Don't confuse good gameplay design, replayability, and a reward/incentive based program with what STO is becoming. It is becoming a grind in the negative connotation of the word. The intent of the devs has turned malicious, almost. This isn't about replayability. I'd say what you're describing is more an image of our borg-based STFs which have now morphed into our Omega Rep system. That's more of the acceptible-rewards area of the tongue-in-cheek "grind" -- if only just. It's not comparable to what this game is turning into right now.
Well, to a point I agree. Grind is a normal part of MMOs, which by itself is fine.
BUT...unlike most MMOs, STO has little point in it's grind. You grind so you can grind. Not really for harder content, most of it can be pretty easy once you reach a certain skill level. There's nothing to achieve for really, outside of NWS or PvP.
It's good they seem to be adding more story content a bit more often now, so that is something. While it's still fairly rare, that is a problem most MMOs tend to have though.
Well.... comparing STO to D2.... in D2 you had to grind to get good gear. In STO, high-level gear is almost free by comparison.
In D2 if you're level 67 for example and you're trying to find/make a good sword for that level it's gonna take a LONG time unless you trade with other players, which is admittedly not that hard, unless you have nothing that they want. NOTE: the levels in D2 go up to 99(or 100 I forget), the highest leveled unique item in the game that I know of is 95. Stuff like that can't be made by players in stock D2 at all, and has to be acquired by repetitive boss runs, much like the old Borg Prototype drops, but less common. Runeword items were easier, but.... there were two catches, 1: you had to acquire an item of the type you wanted with the right number of sockets, and two, you had to find the runes needed. I previously mentioned how hard acquiring a Zod Rune was. Well.... the other high-level runes might be easier to make.... but only somewhat. And high-level characters need to use high level gear otherwise Boss runs are not gonna end well. There's also set and crafted gear, but you can't make set gear, and crafted gear is about as hard to make as runeword gear. But, there's an extra twist to crafted gear in D2 that we don't have in STO, there is no floor on the level of item mods. So crafting a sword as a level 99 character has a chance of creating a weapon with level 15 or lower mods, IE, junk.
In STO, getting blue or purple MK11 gear is easy by comparison. You can easily get regular gear for a few hundred thousand ec. It's the special gear that people grind for. It's time consuming for some things, but compared to D2? it's easy.
In case people are wondering, I used to play D2 a LOT for 6 years or so... It gets old, especially since there is no more story past level 45. there is only grinding in harder versions of the same content you played in normal mode.
Plenty of people out there already spending that much on lockboxes and converting Zen to Dil.
While I admit I drop a bit of coin on lockboxes and Dil, it is never a few thousand in one shot. That is way too high a ticket price for me. Honestly it was work to get the $300 for my lifer. So dropping that kind of cash to bump a fleet a complete level would be a bit high for me.
(Though I would probably spend that much in purchasable marks, dil, and time reducers. Just over a longer time frame.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Acquire a Zod Rune in Diablo 2. Now THAT is grinding!
Actually, it's usually duping, not grinding.
/carryon
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Comments
Do people have to kneel before the Zod Rune?
Most of what people bemoan as "grind" in STO is entirely optional. I used the Zod rune as an example because (almost) ALL high level characters In D2:X use them. Why? Equipment repair costs in D2 are INSANE at high levels. That is one thing I will never miss.... ever. It's especially bad for Melee characters since they'd damage their weapons just by using them....
STO has less than half the grind D2 did...
My character Tsin'xing
I would question what the true nature of the discussion was... as the topic was more a concern about reduction in calendar hourly options and the addition/need to buy tokens instead. Wasn't really about the issues of c-store changes from my viewpoint but I'll concede your point as you all make the decisions.
I since listened to Gecko on the podcast and now most definitely know its coming. I agree with you as well as to it being a benefit to a lot of people even myself. I just don't want to see the ability to get bonus marks tucked away to a weekend every once in awhile unless you buy the token. I'm sure if its awful enough rage will ensue and it will change like everything else does.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Well, to a point I agree. Grind is a normal part of MMOs, which by itself is fine.
BUT...unlike most MMOs, STO has little point in it's grind. You grind so you can grind. Not really for harder content, most of it can be pretty easy once you reach a certain skill level. There's nothing to achieve for really, outside of NWS or PvP.
It's good they seem to be adding more story content a bit more often now, so that is something. While it's still fairly rare, that is a problem most MMOs tend to have though.
1. Those who can afford to pay for whatever makes their game play more fun.
2. Those who can afford to pay but refuses to do so because they're trying to prove something.
3. Those who can't afford to pay because they're in school, unemployed or whatever.
What is remarkable is that it's never the first or the last group that complains about these things... :rolleyes:
Being unemployed with all the time in the world. It takes time but cost you no cash.
If you're hardworking, with paycheck and little time...
See? There is a balance to things. -Only stupid poor people will pay for this option.
You're using "grind" too lightly. There's what's generally and casually referred to as "grind" and this is a bit tongue in cheek. Don't confuse good gameplay design, replayability, and a reward/incentive based program with what STO is becoming. It is becoming a grind in the negative connotation of the word. The intent of the devs has turned malicious, almost. This isn't about replayability. I'd say what you're describing is more an image of our borg-based STFs which have now morphed into our Omega Rep system. That's more of the acceptible-rewards area of the tongue-in-cheek "grind" -- if only just. It's not comparable to what this game is turning into right now.
In D2 if you're level 67 for example and you're trying to find/make a good sword for that level it's gonna take a LONG time unless you trade with other players, which is admittedly not that hard, unless you have nothing that they want. NOTE: the levels in D2 go up to 99(or 100 I forget), the highest leveled unique item in the game that I know of is 95. Stuff like that can't be made by players in stock D2 at all, and has to be acquired by repetitive boss runs, much like the old Borg Prototype drops, but less common. Runeword items were easier, but.... there were two catches, 1: you had to acquire an item of the type you wanted with the right number of sockets, and two, you had to find the runes needed. I previously mentioned how hard acquiring a Zod Rune was. Well.... the other high-level runes might be easier to make.... but only somewhat. And high-level characters need to use high level gear otherwise Boss runs are not gonna end well. There's also set and crafted gear, but you can't make set gear, and crafted gear is about as hard to make as runeword gear. But, there's an extra twist to crafted gear in D2 that we don't have in STO, there is no floor on the level of item mods. So crafting a sword as a level 99 character has a chance of creating a weapon with level 15 or lower mods, IE, junk.
In STO, getting blue or purple MK11 gear is easy by comparison. You can easily get regular gear for a few hundred thousand ec. It's the special gear that people grind for. It's time consuming for some things, but compared to D2? it's easy.
In case people are wondering, I used to play D2 a LOT for 6 years or so... It gets old, especially since there is no more story past level 45. there is only grinding in harder versions of the same content you played in normal mode.
My character Tsin'xing
While I admit I drop a bit of coin on lockboxes and Dil, it is never a few thousand in one shot. That is way too high a ticket price for me. Honestly it was work to get the $300 for my lifer. So dropping that kind of cash to bump a fleet a complete level would be a bit high for me.
(Though I would probably spend that much in purchasable marks, dil, and time reducers. Just over a longer time frame.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Actually, it's usually duping, not grinding.
/carryon
My character Tsin'xing