Borg versus a sith sorcerer: group of drones approaches, sorcerer puts up an impenetrable lightning shield and makes a force storm over the poor drones and fries their circuits.
And for those of you who say Borg can adapt to lightsaber, I think they can also. That is why all the jedi and sith should be armed with vibroswards instead.
The Borg would adapt to the storm... :P
Any form of energy attack, presumably including heat (lightsabers) and cold (CRM-200) can be adapted to by the Borg.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
OK STOP. EVERYONE. Thisis getting out of hand and it is going no where. To even begin to have this debate we need to settle on the details of the conflict.
What type of battle?
fleet vs fleet?
Ship vs ship?
Person vs person?
Race vs race?
Organization vs organization?
We need to also use ONLY PROVABLE SITED FACTS or ONSCREEN EVIDENCE.
Also, considering BOTH genres have godlike races....honestly, we should keep them OUT of this i think....
Gonna take what I believe to be the best of both, and my projected victor, and why.
Ship: Death Star vs. Borg Cube. Death Star wins, superlaser, one shot.
Individual: Kirk vs. Admiral Yularen. Kirk; Yularen had only limited ground tactical training.
Army: Borg Collective vs. Grand Army of the Republic. Stalemate. Borg adapt to clones, Jedi fend Borg off but neither is unable to overcome the other. Both need rest, but the Jedi need rest less frequently. However, the sheer number of drones would counteract this advantage.
ALTERNATE: Borg Collective vs. Yuuzhan Vong. Borg Collective. Yuuzhan Vong would have the initial advantage, but the Borg would adapt. Vong adapt too, but not as fast as their technology is organic.
Fleet. Borg Collective vs. Imperial Fleet with Death Star and all Sith/Pseudo-Sith from that era. Collective. Death Star's superlaser would eventually be rendered obsolete by adapting (however, I believe this would take some time, as it would destroy each vessel utterly, thus providing very little data from which to create adaptations). Sidious' battle meditation would be useless as Borg feel no emotions. Darth Vader's Force choke would be useless as Borg do not require blood flow or air. All Darksiders would eventually be useless as Borg adapt to the Force and lightsabers.
Super-powered individual: Vergere vs. Borg Queen. I chose Vergere based on her mastery of unusual abilities, as well as her deceptive nature. I believe this nature, combined with her Force skills, would allow her to be assimilated, yet retain control of her body, allowing her to surprise the Queen. Her lightsaber and Force powers would overpower the Queen before she could adapt. Vergere wins.
Super-powered individual. Q vs. Daughter of Mortis. This is a long debate waiting to happen. I will declare it a stalemate for now.
Chuck Norris vs.... wait, what?
Ground ranged weapons. Phaser vs. blaster. Phaser, due to multiple settings as well as beam mechanics.
Ground melee weapon. Bat'leth vs. Lightsaber. Lightsaber, cutting through Bat'leth.
Space weapon. Death Star Superlaser vs. Borg Cutting Beam. Superlaser wins, one-shot kill.
Now for the coolness factor. This is, again, merely my opinion.
Star-surrounding construct; Solonae Dyson Sphere vs. Mortis Monolith. I would say they are evenly matched. The Monolith has no animal life, and only three humanoids. The Sphere would win in that respect. However, the environment is constantly changing, and unnatural phenomena are common. In that respect, the Monolith is victor. I declare it a stalemate.
Mechanics; Superscience vs. (less intricate) superscience as well as the Force. The Force wins every time, hands down, Q or no Q.
Weapon coolness: Phaser vs. Lightsabers. Duhhh... Lightsabers. Any questions?
It's all fine an well for Star Wars until they run into Keven Uxbrigde. The moment he becomes upset they are all dead.
Star Trek has transporters that would win the battles in space. They could just transport torps right to the vital parts of the ships they are fighting.
Please not try to say they could not do that due to shields. It's clear small ships were able to go threw the shields of Star Destroyers and everything else they had in Star Wars. So if nothing else the Enterprise could launch shuttles and beam the torps from them into the Star Destroyers.
Gonna take what I believe to be the best of both, and my projected victor, and why.
And do so extremely poorly, as I noticed from the very first line...
Ship: Death Star vs. Borg Cube. Death Star wins, superlaser, one shot.
Undine planet killer (can't think of anything stronger right now, or I'd take that - blew up a planet too, and it's smaller than the Death Star) against Sun Crusher (or whatever it was called). Sun Crusher wins, as the resonance torpedo thingy whose name I can't remember can blow up entire star systems with ease.
Individual: Kirk vs. Admiral Yularen. Kirk; Yularen had only limited ground tactical training.
I find it odd that you chose Kirk and Yularen to represent their IPs... by all means, I'd take Thrawn instead of Yularen, much better strategist - and I don't really know any particularly great tacticians on the ST side. I suppose Khan could be a worthy opponent - if you were to remove his overwhelming arrogance, that is. :rolleyes:
Army: Borg Collective vs. Grand Army of the Republic. Stalemate. Borg adapt to clones, Jedi fend Borg off but neither is unable to overcome the other. Both need rest, but the Jedi need rest less frequently. However, the sheer number of drones would counteract this advantage.
The Jedi need rest less frequently? Huh?
Anyway, I'd say it's a stalemate as long as the Borg don't manage to capture and assimilate a Jedi. After that, they're in big trouble. Think "assimilated Undine to the tenth power" trouble. :P
ALTERNATE: Borg Collective vs. Yuuzhan Vong. Borg Collective. Yuuzhan Vong would have the initial advantage, but the Borg would adapt. Vong adapt too, but not as fast as their technology is organic.
Yes, I feel this scenario is well described. Undine would be more appropriate than Borg here, though.
Fleet. Borg Collective vs. Imperial Fleet with Death Star and all Sith/Pseudo-Sith from that era. Collective. Death Star's superlaser would eventually be rendered obsolete by adapting (however, I believe this would take some time, as it would destroy each vessel utterly, thus providing very little data from which to create adaptations). Sidious' battle meditation would be useless as Borg feel no emotions. Darth Vader's Force choke would be useless as Borg do not require blood flow or air. All Darksiders would eventually be useless as Borg adapt to the Force and lightsabers.
The Borg would not adapt to the Force. Lightsabers, yes, and all non-telekinetic Force attacks I can think of, but not the Force as a whole. Force choke would not be as weak as you think - and the Death Star may have too much power to simply be shrugged off, even by Borg adaptation. However, bring enough Borg cubes at once, and it's gone.
Super-powered individual: Vergere vs. Borg Queen. I chose Vergere based on her mastery of unusual abilities, as well as her deceptive nature. I believe this nature, combined with her Force skills, would allow her to be assimilated, yet retain control of her body, allowing her to surprise the Queen. Her lightsaber and Force powers would overpower the Queen before she could adapt. Vergere wins.
Unlikely and highly speculative. Personally, I feel that the Borg would overpower any Force-sensitive that could not destroy the assimilation nanites in time, and would most certainly not be tricked the way you suggested.
Super-powered individual. Q vs. Daughter of Mortis. This is a long debate waiting to happen. I will declare it a stalemate for now.
All evidence suggests that any Q is more powerful than any of the Ones due to being able to manipulate anything in the known universe. Clearly, none of the Ones can say the same. :P
Ground ranged weapons. Phaser vs. blaster. Phaser, due to multiple settings as well as beam mechanics.
Sounds just about right.
Ground melee weapon. Bat'leth vs. Lightsaber. Lightsaber, cutting through Bat'leth.
Well, technically, yes - though if you build a cortosis-weave Bat'leth, suddenly things aren't as simple... :P
Space weapon. Death Star Superlaser vs. Borg Cutting Beam. Superlaser wins, one-shot kill.
Poor choice of weapons - Sun Crusher torpedo against... weaponized Genesis device, perhaps? Sounds relatively evenly matched.
Now for the coolness factor. This is, again, merely my opinion.
Star-surrounding construct; Solonae Dyson Sphere vs. Mortis Monolith. I would say they are evenly matched. The Monolith has no animal life, and only three humanoids. The Sphere would win in that respect. However, the environment is constantly changing, and unnatural phenomena are common. In that respect, the Monolith is victor. I declare it a stalemate.
I do not believe the Monolith surrounds a star at all. However, judging from a strictly scientific view, I would say the Solanae Sphere is by far superior to Mortis - it can hold countless inhabitants with ease, something the Monolith is incapable of doing. Furthermore, had it not been improperly built, it could have traveled through subspace. That's no small feat.
Mechanics; Superscience vs. (less intricate) superscience as well as the Force. The Force wins every time, hands down, Q or no Q.
I know I'm judging this subjectively rather than objectively and shouldn't be commenting on this, but... the Q seem to be more powerful.
Weapon coolness: Phaser vs. Lightsabers. Duhhh... Lightsabers. Any questions?
Absolutely correct.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
It's all fine an well for Star Wars until they run into Keven Uxbrigde. The moment he becomes upset they are all dead.
Star Trek has transporters that would win the battles in space. They could just transport torps right to the vital parts of the ships they are fighting.
Please not try to say they could not do that due to shields. It's clear small ships were able to go threw the shields of Star Destroyers and everything else they had in Star Wars. So if nothing else the Enterprise could launch shuttles and beam the torps from them into the Star Destroyers.
You do realize what a silly thing you just said, right?
SW ships have skin-like shielding - they cover the outer hull instead of forming large, wasteful bubbles a small fleet can hide out in. However, I will note that the different inner workings of the SW shields may or may not allow transporters to operate as if they were not there.
I really shouldn't be getting into this but I can't resist.
First, the Death Star. Destroying an Earth-mass planet in the manner shown in A New Hope requires the superlaser to impart 1 x 10^38 Joules to target, as calculated here. That's the amount of energy the Sun generates over a span of 8,000 years. This is just an interesting tidbit that shows just how far above ST the Empire's tech base is.
Well, to be honest, I think ST ships are just as capable of wiping out all life on a planet.
I'll grant they're claimed to be capable of it. The SWEU has actually demonstrated, repeatedly, that SW ships can pull it off (ref: Caamas, and that was mercenaries, not a regular navy).
Not to mention that unless somebody sealed that exhaust port, a photon torpedo could achieve the same effect as a proton torpedo.
Problem The First. The port is 2 meters wide. Photon torpedoes measure 2.1 meters long and 0.76 meters wide, while an X-Wing's proton torpedoes are less than 0.5 meters in any direction. So you have the problem of fitting the weapon into the target.
Problem The Second. Others before me, when Alt.StarWars.vs.StarTrek was running, have calculated based on screen evidence that Luke's torpedoes executed a 72,000 G turn to enter the exhaust port. Photon torpedoes have only rarely demonstrated any ability to change direction in flight at all, and never anything remotely close to that vector change.
Furthermore, we do not know whether or not transporters would be affected by SW shielding. If they weren't, then you could just beam a torpedo next to the reactor core on just about any SW ship and either let the resulting explosion wipe out the ship, or leave useless ship hulls in your wake, depending on how powerful the explosion would be.
ST transporters are shown to be blocked or disrupted by any number of naturally occurring materials and energy fields in their own universe. In particular they are shown to be blocked by deflector shields on innumerable occasions. I'm afraid my default assumption is that transporters are a useless gimmick here.
the Borg
Easily killed until they adapt, tactically incompetent (human wave tactics and ... that's about it), and still just as vulnerable to brute force as the rest of us (as the cube from First Contact can attest, having had its shields near failure before the Enterprise even arrived).
the Undine (wiped out entire planets as well as the Borg, so they've definitely got the firepower)
They ignore you unless you enter fluidic space and attack them, it takes several in concert to destroy a planet, and their ships are as fragile as anything else defensively.
the Voth
Despite their claims of superior tech, demonstrated to be technologically equals of the AQ powers.
and I didn't even mention the fact that SW starfighters would be completely useless.
In both Star Trek and Star Wars, the good guys always win. Against overwhelming odds, certainly, but they always win.
So, in a battle between Starfleet and the Empire, Starfleet will win.
The details of how they win are left to those lowly beings, the scriptwriters, to work out....
I counter that with the fact that in all cases the good guys are faced with enemies that do not have insurmountable advantages. Mike Wong of StarDestroyer.net provides the counterexample of Harry Callahan versus Megatron (tried to find the page but couldn't). Would you pick a certainly badass but nevertheless ordinary human with a .45 over an armored two-story-tall robot that can crush a tank without half-trying?
Even if it's all three AQ powers versus just the Empire, and even if you throw out the Incredible Cross Sections firepower numbers and assume all ships are equal, the three AQ powers between them comprise maybe a thousand major star systems. That's the size of what was left of the Empire after consistently losing to the Rebels and New Republic for fourteen years straight. Meanwhile the Empire's industrial base is sufficient to supply the construction of two-thirds of the second Death Star in the span of six months.
Finally, the speed of hyperdrive provides an insurmountable tactical and strategic advantage. Hyperdrives have been calculated as capable of speeds upwards of 1 million c. By the TNG warp scale, warp 9, the highest long-term-sustainable speed for most ST military ships calculates out to a mere 1,516 c. If you, for example, replaced the Dominion with the Empire, Sisko's mining the wormhole is merely an inconvenience: they lose maybe a week's travel time, tops, by hoofing it, as opposed to decades.
The only way Star Trek wins is by invoking time travel (which generally just moves the traveler into an alternate timeline in Star Trek-ville) or godlike aliens, and in my circles that's considered a tacit admission that you've already lost.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Voth are A: not exactly technological equals of the AQ powers, as evidenced by such technological feats as instantaneous teleportation of hostile ships, immunity matrices, and the construction of the Fortress.
Starfighters are easily dispatched by point defense systems (Thunderchild, for example), superior accuracy and firing arc on AQ weapons (Danube runabout, Type 8 shuttle, to name just a few), or timed detonation of the antimatter warheads within photon torpedoes. The last requires significant computing power to time precisely, I guess - but not outside of the capabilities of your average ship's computer.
Well, judging from the schematics in ANH and your own dimensions, one could blast a hole into the exhaust tower, sending the torpedo down that hole straight into the reactor. Granted, the likelihood that the exhaust is a straight pipe that just happens to take an odd turn when it reaches the exhaust port is slim, but...
SW weapons may have a much harder time remodulating, causing Borg adaptation to be much more effective.
The Undine were included under the assumption that this is a true IP vs IP war, without such situational nitpicking.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
You do realize what a silly thing you just said, right?
SW ships have skin-like shielding - they cover the outer hull instead of forming large, wasteful bubbles a small fleet can hide out in. However, I will note that the different inner workings of the SW shields may or may not allow transporters to operate as if they were not there.
Power levels alone cannot win battles. However, I have heard that argument before. :P
Hold on a minute, lets not forget the opening line from the Star Wars novel. "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away" Long before Earth had any real tech, remember E.T. visited 1980's earth. Those ugly little E.T. guys came from the Republic. So technically, wouldn't the time of Star Wars have been happening long before first contact? Giving them time after Luke brings back the Jedi order to start researching better weapons and technology to surpass everything in Star Trek?? I don't remember anyone mentioning the beta quadrant, lets say the Republic is there! hehe
On hind sight, Lando started bell bottoms then, and destroyed an era of fashion on earth, the fiend!!!
The fact that Star Wars has Jedi and Sith, gives them an overall advantage anyways! They can listen to and channel the Force. Star Treks own tech would be turned on them!! :cool:
New Lunar Republic
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
The Voth are A: not exactly technological equals of the AQ powers, as evidenced by such technological feats as instantaneous teleportation of hostile ships, immunity matrices, and the construction of the Fortress.
Starfighters are easily dispatched by point defense systems (Thunderchild, for example), superior accuracy and firing arc on AQ weapons (Danube runabout, Type 8 shuttle, to name just a few), or timed detonation of the antimatter warheads within photon torpedoes. The last requires significant computing power to time precisely, I guess - but not outside of the capabilities of your average ship's computer.
All right, I'll give you those two.
Well, judging from the schematics in ANH and your own dimensions, one could blast a hole into the exhaust tower, sending the torpedo down that hole straight into the reactor. Granted, the likelihood that the exhaust is a straight pipe that just happens to take an odd turn when it reaches the exhaust port is slim, but...
Being able to hit the target with that level of precision is the important question here. The ANH novelization (considered movie-level canon) states that throughout the battle the Death Star was running ECM so powerful it actually distorted space. You're going in on manual control (Riker is considered the best pilot on the Enterprise because he is actually capable of flying the big E on manual), with very limited targeting ability, hence why the Rebels had to get so close before firing.
SW weapons may have a much harder time remodulating, causing Borg adaptation to be much more effective.
I discard trying to remodulate in favor of beating on it until it dies. As I noted in my last post, the Borg are just as vulnerable to attrition as anyone else.
The Undine were included under the assumption that this is a true IP vs IP war, without such situational nitpicking.
You're the one who brought it up. Don't blame me when your argument falls apart.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Hold on a minute, lets not forget the opening line from the Star Wars novel. "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away" Long before Earth had any real tech, remember E.T. visited 1980's earth. Those ugly little E.T. guys came from the Republic. So technically, wouldn't the time of Star Wars have been happening long before first contact? Giving them time after Luke brings back the Jedi order to start researching better weapons and technology to surpass everything in Star Trek?? I don't remember anyone mentioning the beta quadrant, lets say the Republic is there! hehe
On hind sight, Lando started bell bottoms then, and destroyed an era of fashion on earth, the fiend!!!
The fact that Star Wars has Jedi and Sith, gives them an overall advantage anyways! They can listen to and channel the Force. Star Treks own tech would be turned on them!! :cool:
Honestly, I tend to interpret the "long time ago" line as being a long time ago from the perspective of the narrator. We have no idea what time period the narrator is from.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
They don't make exhaust ports small enough to keep out Transphasics.
And if that doesn't clinch it right in the first encounter, the Star Wars universe is so notoriously uninnovative (almost no technological progress over thousands of years) that even if the Imperial Starfleet one-trick ponies somehow technologically outclass the Federation Starfleet on day one, those tables will have turned completely 24 hours later. So they'd better lay the place to waste quick.
Being able to hit the target with that level of precision is the important question here. The ANH novelization (considered movie-level canon) states that throughout the battle the Death Star was running ECM so powerful it actually distorted space. You're going in on manual control (Riker is considered the best pilot on the Enterprise because he is actually capable of flying the big E on manual), with very limited targeting ability, hence why the Rebels had to get so close before firing.
I discard trying to remodulate in favor of beating on it until it dies. As I noted in my last post, the Borg are just as vulnerable to attrition as anyone else.
You're the one who brought it up. Don't blame me when your argument falls apart.
Okay, the countermeasures I was familiar with.
However, failing to remodulate will result in extraordinary power requirements (several squads of stormtroopers firing at once, perhaps?) to take down comparably small targets such as individual drones. Note that by the time of the Battle of Sector 001, Starfleet had already become capable of combatting the Borg to a degree, and it still took them an entire fleet (a fleet that was badly damaged as a result, I should add) to take down that cube until Picard stepped in and told them where to shoot.
The fact is, if the Undine were somehow forced to fight this war, they would achieve the results I noted. Undine ships were capable of combatting Borg cubes despite being significantly smaller, so...
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Star Trek may of limited it's self in the way it did it's power levels for ships and such but it's got races in it of unlimited power.
Star Wars has powerful people but they are limited in power where Star Trek has people of unlimited power. No one in Star Wars can kill every member of a species with a thought. Keven Exbrigde did, he killed every Husnock, ALL of them.
Yes, that's right... Star Trek has planet busters too! Oh you wanted something that isn't a knockoff of the Death Star? The Doomsday device! It's even older than the Death Star too!
Honestly I think that Borg nanotech would trump the Rakghoul plague. Nanoprobes can work on pretty much anything organic and the Rakghoul plague doesn't seem to have any way to purge the nanoprobes. (that and there are two cures for the plague in SW)
Come on, plagues?
Remember that Dr. Bashir managed to defeat a genetically engineered plague without advanced tech that had an entire planet stumped and suffering.
Some guy in VOY used transporter tech to rebuild completely destroyed humanoids (destroying by a devious weapon he invented).
The Enterprise-D crew managed to undo at least two afflictions that completely altered the biology of its crew mates.
The Federation's ability to stop diseaes of any kind is really only limited by the plot.
As is pretty much any ability.
I just say this - the made-up numbers for Star Wars technology that are supposedly canon are extremely inconsistent with what is happening on the screen.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
There would only be one winner, the sith emperor. He would just wait until both sides of the war have massive casualties and then do a force drain on every living thing in in one galaxy then become a God and then move to the next galaxy, do the same thing, and become a God. Overall he would be the only winner.
The Scim would probably be the biggest threat. It's like a mobile death star with cloak and warp speeds that exceed a Sovereign that you would never see coming. All it would have to do is sit in it's cloak, charge up it's apocalypse beam and decloak and Coruscant would be dead.
The video posted is a little weird... as soon as you're being choked, just keep firing torpedoes until you aren't being choked any longer. Also, I don't believe Vader ever demonstrated the ability to choke entire starships at once.
If that encounter had been against Sisko, then as soon as they started firing Sisko would have done his laugh, and blown up the ship.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Some guy in VOY used transporter tech to rebuild completely destroyed humanoids (destroying by a devious weapon he invented).
Rewatch the episode in question, "Jetrel". He tried. It didn't work. He managed to rematerialize a lump of goo, but when he tried to get a living person instead the transporter threw up its hands and went and cried in a corner (figuratively speaking).
I just say this - the made-up numbers for Star Wars technology that are supposedly canon are extremely inconsistent with what is happening on the screen.
The ICS numbers are based on calculations from screen evidence, such as the amount of energy it would take to make a nickel-iron asteroid, scaled using the known 1.6 km length of the Star Destroyer firing the shots, completely disappear with one shot (one of the asteroid belt scenes in TESB).
Also, consider the fact that, making the assumption that Alderaan has the same diameter and mass as Earth, destroying it in the manner shown requires the Death Star to impart 1 x 10^38 Joules to the target, roughly the amount of energy produced by the sun in 8,000 years. The ICS numbers for Star Destroyer firepower are actually several orders of magnitude less than what you'd get simply by scaling down from the Death Star.
See also the fact that a directed energy weapon may described as delivering X megatons to the target, but the result isn't going to look like the result of a nuke because the weapon isn't a nuke. "Megatons" is a representation of the energy present in terms of the amount of TNT you'd need to release the same energy.
Snap! All of Star Wars is gone Q trumps all. He could make their Galaxy into the size of a marble and step on it. Even if the Sith and Jedi could stop him somehow Q could throw another Galaxy crashing into theirs... Bye bye
One, you're running into a no-limits fallacy, assuming that there's no upper end to Q's powers. Two, in my circles having to invoke godlike aliens to win is considered a tacit admission that you've already lost.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The Scim would probably be the biggest threat. It's like a mobile death star with cloak and warp speeds that exceed a Sovereign that you would never see coming. All it would have to do is sit in it's cloak, charge up it's apocalypse beam and decloak and Coruscant would be dead.
One. Star Wars has sensors called crystal gravfield traps that can detect cloaked ships. They do it by spotting the ship's mass signature. Even a cloaked ship is still physically present.
Two. Yes, it's faster than a Sov. It's still practically standing still compared to basically anything in the SW arsenal. Remember where I pointed out earlier that if the Empire had been in the Dominion's place, losing wormhole access is just a minor inconvenience?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
It depends. Does Disney have more money and better lawyers than Paramount CBS? What is the lawsuit about, copyright infringement?
Or are you asking if G. Lucas could beat G. Roddenberry in a schoolyard fight? Tough call Roddenberry was an ex fireman and Lucas an ex race car driver.
A TIME TO SEARCH: ENTER MY FOUNDRY MISSION at the RISA SYSTEM Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
It depends. Does Disney have more money and better lawyers than Paramount CBS? What is the lawsuit about, copyright infringement?
Or are you asking if G. Lucas could beat G. Roddenberry in a schoolyard fight? Tough call Roddenberry was an ex fireman and Lucas an ex race car driver.
2 internets to you, sir! Excellent combo of logic and irony! Bravo!
Comments
The Borg would adapt to the storm... :P
Any form of energy attack, presumably including heat (lightsabers) and cold (CRM-200) can be adapted to by the Borg.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
oh and the jedi lived happily ever after
system Lord Baal is dead
What type of battle?
fleet vs fleet?
Ship vs ship?
Person vs person?
Race vs race?
Organization vs organization?
We need to also use ONLY PROVABLE SITED FACTS or ONSCREEN EVIDENCE.
Also, considering BOTH genres have godlike races....honestly, we should keep them OUT of this i think....
Settle on these and move forward from there......
It's like they completely ignored the original post......
Ship: Death Star vs. Borg Cube. Death Star wins, superlaser, one shot.
Individual: Kirk vs. Admiral Yularen. Kirk; Yularen had only limited ground tactical training.
Army: Borg Collective vs. Grand Army of the Republic. Stalemate. Borg adapt to clones, Jedi fend Borg off but neither is unable to overcome the other. Both need rest, but the Jedi need rest less frequently. However, the sheer number of drones would counteract this advantage.
ALTERNATE: Borg Collective vs. Yuuzhan Vong. Borg Collective. Yuuzhan Vong would have the initial advantage, but the Borg would adapt. Vong adapt too, but not as fast as their technology is organic.
Fleet. Borg Collective vs. Imperial Fleet with Death Star and all Sith/Pseudo-Sith from that era. Collective. Death Star's superlaser would eventually be rendered obsolete by adapting (however, I believe this would take some time, as it would destroy each vessel utterly, thus providing very little data from which to create adaptations). Sidious' battle meditation would be useless as Borg feel no emotions. Darth Vader's Force choke would be useless as Borg do not require blood flow or air. All Darksiders would eventually be useless as Borg adapt to the Force and lightsabers.
Super-powered individual: Vergere vs. Borg Queen. I chose Vergere based on her mastery of unusual abilities, as well as her deceptive nature. I believe this nature, combined with her Force skills, would allow her to be assimilated, yet retain control of her body, allowing her to surprise the Queen. Her lightsaber and Force powers would overpower the Queen before she could adapt. Vergere wins.
Super-powered individual. Q vs. Daughter of Mortis. This is a long debate waiting to happen. I will declare it a stalemate for now.
Chuck Norris vs.... wait, what?
Ground ranged weapons. Phaser vs. blaster. Phaser, due to multiple settings as well as beam mechanics.
Ground melee weapon. Bat'leth vs. Lightsaber. Lightsaber, cutting through Bat'leth.
Space weapon. Death Star Superlaser vs. Borg Cutting Beam. Superlaser wins, one-shot kill.
Now for the coolness factor. This is, again, merely my opinion.
Star-surrounding construct; Solonae Dyson Sphere vs. Mortis Monolith. I would say they are evenly matched. The Monolith has no animal life, and only three humanoids. The Sphere would win in that respect. However, the environment is constantly changing, and unnatural phenomena are common. In that respect, the Monolith is victor. I declare it a stalemate.
Mechanics; Superscience vs. (less intricate) superscience as well as the Force. The Force wins every time, hands down, Q or no Q.
Weapon coolness: Phaser vs. Lightsabers. Duhhh... Lightsabers. Any questions?
Star Trek has transporters that would win the battles in space. They could just transport torps right to the vital parts of the ships they are fighting.
Please not try to say they could not do that due to shields. It's clear small ships were able to go threw the shields of Star Destroyers and everything else they had in Star Wars. So if nothing else the Enterprise could launch shuttles and beam the torps from them into the Star Destroyers.
It is important to note that while star trek tech IS more advanced, Star wars starship powerlevels are WAY more than what starfleet ships can do.
See here:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html
That's true but they have zero defense against transporters. You could really just transport torps right into the Star Wars ships.
And do so extremely poorly, as I noticed from the very first line...
Undine planet killer (can't think of anything stronger right now, or I'd take that - blew up a planet too, and it's smaller than the Death Star) against Sun Crusher (or whatever it was called). Sun Crusher wins, as the resonance torpedo thingy whose name I can't remember can blow up entire star systems with ease.
I find it odd that you chose Kirk and Yularen to represent their IPs... by all means, I'd take Thrawn instead of Yularen, much better strategist - and I don't really know any particularly great tacticians on the ST side. I suppose Khan could be a worthy opponent - if you were to remove his overwhelming arrogance, that is. :rolleyes:
The Jedi need rest less frequently? Huh?
Anyway, I'd say it's a stalemate as long as the Borg don't manage to capture and assimilate a Jedi. After that, they're in big trouble. Think "assimilated Undine to the tenth power" trouble. :P
Yes, I feel this scenario is well described. Undine would be more appropriate than Borg here, though.
The Borg would not adapt to the Force. Lightsabers, yes, and all non-telekinetic Force attacks I can think of, but not the Force as a whole. Force choke would not be as weak as you think - and the Death Star may have too much power to simply be shrugged off, even by Borg adaptation. However, bring enough Borg cubes at once, and it's gone.
Unlikely and highly speculative. Personally, I feel that the Borg would overpower any Force-sensitive that could not destroy the assimilation nanites in time, and would most certainly not be tricked the way you suggested.
All evidence suggests that any Q is more powerful than any of the Ones due to being able to manipulate anything in the known universe. Clearly, none of the Ones can say the same. :P
Sounds just about right.
Well, technically, yes - though if you build a cortosis-weave Bat'leth, suddenly things aren't as simple... :P
Poor choice of weapons - Sun Crusher torpedo against... weaponized Genesis device, perhaps? Sounds relatively evenly matched.
Now for the coolness factor. This is, again, merely my opinion.
I do not believe the Monolith surrounds a star at all. However, judging from a strictly scientific view, I would say the Solanae Sphere is by far superior to Mortis - it can hold countless inhabitants with ease, something the Monolith is incapable of doing. Furthermore, had it not been improperly built, it could have traveled through subspace. That's no small feat.
I know I'm judging this subjectively rather than objectively and shouldn't be commenting on this, but... the Q seem to be more powerful.
Absolutely correct.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
You do realize what a silly thing you just said, right?
SW ships have skin-like shielding - they cover the outer hull instead of forming large, wasteful bubbles a small fleet can hide out in. However, I will note that the different inner workings of the SW shields may or may not allow transporters to operate as if they were not there.
Power levels alone cannot win battles. However, I have heard that argument before. :P
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I really shouldn't be getting into this but I can't resist.
First, the Death Star. Destroying an Earth-mass planet in the manner shown in A New Hope requires the superlaser to impart 1 x 10^38 Joules to target, as calculated here. That's the amount of energy the Sun generates over a span of 8,000 years. This is just an interesting tidbit that shows just how far above ST the Empire's tech base is.
I'll grant they're claimed to be capable of it. The SWEU has actually demonstrated, repeatedly, that SW ships can pull it off (ref: Caamas, and that was mercenaries, not a regular navy).
Problem The First. The port is 2 meters wide. Photon torpedoes measure 2.1 meters long and 0.76 meters wide, while an X-Wing's proton torpedoes are less than 0.5 meters in any direction. So you have the problem of fitting the weapon into the target.
Problem The Second. Others before me, when Alt.StarWars.vs.StarTrek was running, have calculated based on screen evidence that Luke's torpedoes executed a 72,000 G turn to enter the exhaust port. Photon torpedoes have only rarely demonstrated any ability to change direction in flight at all, and never anything remotely close to that vector change.
ST transporters are shown to be blocked or disrupted by any number of naturally occurring materials and energy fields in their own universe. In particular they are shown to be blocked by deflector shields on innumerable occasions. I'm afraid my default assumption is that transporters are a useless gimmick here.
Easily killed until they adapt, tactically incompetent (human wave tactics and ... that's about it), and still just as vulnerable to brute force as the rest of us (as the cube from First Contact can attest, having had its shields near failure before the Enterprise even arrived).
They ignore you unless you enter fluidic space and attack them, it takes several in concert to destroy a planet, and their ships are as fragile as anything else defensively.
Despite their claims of superior tech, demonstrated to be technologically equals of the AQ powers.
Evidence?
I counter that with the fact that in all cases the good guys are faced with enemies that do not have insurmountable advantages. Mike Wong of StarDestroyer.net provides the counterexample of Harry Callahan versus Megatron (tried to find the page but couldn't). Would you pick a certainly badass but nevertheless ordinary human with a .45 over an armored two-story-tall robot that can crush a tank without half-trying?
Even if it's all three AQ powers versus just the Empire, and even if you throw out the Incredible Cross Sections firepower numbers and assume all ships are equal, the three AQ powers between them comprise maybe a thousand major star systems. That's the size of what was left of the Empire after consistently losing to the Rebels and New Republic for fourteen years straight. Meanwhile the Empire's industrial base is sufficient to supply the construction of two-thirds of the second Death Star in the span of six months.
Finally, the speed of hyperdrive provides an insurmountable tactical and strategic advantage. Hyperdrives have been calculated as capable of speeds upwards of 1 million c. By the TNG warp scale, warp 9, the highest long-term-sustainable speed for most ST military ships calculates out to a mere 1,516 c. If you, for example, replaced the Dominion with the Empire, Sisko's mining the wormhole is merely an inconvenience: they lose maybe a week's travel time, tops, by hoofing it, as opposed to decades.
The only way Star Trek wins is by invoking time travel (which generally just moves the traveler into an alternate timeline in Star Trek-ville) or godlike aliens, and in my circles that's considered a tacit admission that you've already lost.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Starfighters are easily dispatched by point defense systems (Thunderchild, for example), superior accuracy and firing arc on AQ weapons (Danube runabout, Type 8 shuttle, to name just a few), or timed detonation of the antimatter warheads within photon torpedoes. The last requires significant computing power to time precisely, I guess - but not outside of the capabilities of your average ship's computer.
Well, judging from the schematics in ANH and your own dimensions, one could blast a hole into the exhaust tower, sending the torpedo down that hole straight into the reactor. Granted, the likelihood that the exhaust is a straight pipe that just happens to take an odd turn when it reaches the exhaust port is slim, but...
SW weapons may have a much harder time remodulating, causing Borg adaptation to be much more effective.
The Undine were included under the assumption that this is a true IP vs IP war, without such situational nitpicking.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Hold on a minute, lets not forget the opening line from the Star Wars novel. "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away" Long before Earth had any real tech, remember E.T. visited 1980's earth. Those ugly little E.T. guys came from the Republic. So technically, wouldn't the time of Star Wars have been happening long before first contact? Giving them time after Luke brings back the Jedi order to start researching better weapons and technology to surpass everything in Star Trek?? I don't remember anyone mentioning the beta quadrant, lets say the Republic is there! hehe
On hind sight, Lando started bell bottoms then, and destroyed an era of fashion on earth, the fiend!!!
The fact that Star Wars has Jedi and Sith, gives them an overall advantage anyways! They can listen to and channel the Force. Star Treks own tech would be turned on them!! :cool:
"Where monsters rampage, I'm there to take them down! Where treasure glitters, I'm there to claim it! Where an enemy rises to face me, victory will be mine!" -Lina Inverse
Being able to hit the target with that level of precision is the important question here. The ANH novelization (considered movie-level canon) states that throughout the battle the Death Star was running ECM so powerful it actually distorted space. You're going in on manual control (Riker is considered the best pilot on the Enterprise because he is actually capable of flying the big E on manual), with very limited targeting ability, hence why the Rebels had to get so close before firing.
I discard trying to remodulate in favor of beating on it until it dies. As I noted in my last post, the Borg are just as vulnerable to attrition as anyone else.
You're the one who brought it up. Don't blame me when your argument falls apart.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Honestly, I tend to interpret the "long time ago" line as being a long time ago from the perspective of the narrator. We have no idea what time period the narrator is from.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
They don't make exhaust ports small enough to keep out Transphasics.
And if that doesn't clinch it right in the first encounter, the Star Wars universe is so notoriously uninnovative (almost no technological progress over thousands of years) that even if the Imperial Starfleet one-trick ponies somehow technologically outclass the Federation Starfleet on day one, those tables will have turned completely 24 hours later. So they'd better lay the place to waste quick.
Okay, the countermeasures I was familiar with.
However, failing to remodulate will result in extraordinary power requirements (several squads of stormtroopers firing at once, perhaps?) to take down comparably small targets such as individual drones. Note that by the time of the Battle of Sector 001, Starfleet had already become capable of combatting the Borg to a degree, and it still took them an entire fleet (a fleet that was badly damaged as a result, I should add) to take down that cube until Picard stepped in and told them where to shoot.
The fact is, if the Undine were somehow forced to fight this war, they would achieve the results I noted. Undine ships were capable of combatting Borg cubes despite being significantly smaller, so...
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
system Lord Baal is dead
Star Wars has powerful people but they are limited in power where Star Trek has people of unlimited power. No one in Star Wars can kill every member of a species with a thought. Keven Exbrigde did, he killed every Husnock, ALL of them.
Come on, plagues?
Remember that Dr. Bashir managed to defeat a genetically engineered plague without advanced tech that had an entire planet stumped and suffering.
Some guy in VOY used transporter tech to rebuild completely destroyed humanoids (destroying by a devious weapon he invented).
The Enterprise-D crew managed to undo at least two afflictions that completely altered the biology of its crew mates.
The Federation's ability to stop diseaes of any kind is really only limited by the plot.
As is pretty much any ability.
I just say this - the made-up numbers for Star Wars technology that are supposedly canon are extremely inconsistent with what is happening on the screen.
If that encounter had been against Sisko, then as soon as they started firing Sisko would have done his laugh, and blown up the ship.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
The ICS numbers are based on calculations from screen evidence, such as the amount of energy it would take to make a nickel-iron asteroid, scaled using the known 1.6 km length of the Star Destroyer firing the shots, completely disappear with one shot (one of the asteroid belt scenes in TESB).
Also, consider the fact that, making the assumption that Alderaan has the same diameter and mass as Earth, destroying it in the manner shown requires the Death Star to impart 1 x 10^38 Joules to the target, roughly the amount of energy produced by the sun in 8,000 years. The ICS numbers for Star Destroyer firepower are actually several orders of magnitude less than what you'd get simply by scaling down from the Death Star.
See also the fact that a directed energy weapon may described as delivering X megatons to the target, but the result isn't going to look like the result of a nuke because the weapon isn't a nuke. "Megatons" is a representation of the energy present in terms of the amount of TNT you'd need to release the same energy.
One, you're running into a no-limits fallacy, assuming that there's no upper end to Q's powers. Two, in my circles having to invoke godlike aliens to win is considered a tacit admission that you've already lost.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
One. Star Wars has sensors called crystal gravfield traps that can detect cloaked ships. They do it by spotting the ship's mass signature. Even a cloaked ship is still physically present.
Two. Yes, it's faster than a Sov. It's still practically standing still compared to basically anything in the SW arsenal. Remember where I pointed out earlier that if the Empire had been in the Dominion's place, losing wormhole access is just a minor inconvenience?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Or are you asking if G. Lucas could beat G. Roddenberry in a schoolyard fight? Tough call Roddenberry was an ex fireman and Lucas an ex race car driver.
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
2 internets to you, sir! Excellent combo of logic and irony! Bravo!
Seriously, brilliant comment.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood