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Change needed for Tractor Beam
pweistheworst
Member Posts: 986 Arc User
I would like to propose a new buff/change to the tractor beam mechanic to make the tractor beam match what we've seen in Star Trek TV shows.
In several Trek shows a tractor beam was used to reduce the ability of an enemy ship to lock weapons on and fire upon a ship. This was most notable in the 2-part episode "Way of the Warrior" from DS9 when Worf uses a tractor beam from the Defiant to reduce a Klingon warship's disruptor accuracy by "50 percent."
So, I'd like the devs to add a buff to tractor beams (at least tier II and III tractor beams) that causes the targeted vessel to suffer "-50% energy weapons accuracy"
This would make the tractor beam a little more useful in combat and make it a more accurate representation of what we see in the Trek TV shows.
In several Trek shows a tractor beam was used to reduce the ability of an enemy ship to lock weapons on and fire upon a ship. This was most notable in the 2-part episode "Way of the Warrior" from DS9 when Worf uses a tractor beam from the Defiant to reduce a Klingon warship's disruptor accuracy by "50 percent."
So, I'd like the devs to add a buff to tractor beams (at least tier II and III tractor beams) that causes the targeted vessel to suffer "-50% energy weapons accuracy"
This would make the tractor beam a little more useful in combat and make it a more accurate representation of what we see in the Trek TV shows.
In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Post edited by pweistheworst on
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DAX: Benjamin, it's going to take at least two minutes to evacuate Dukat's ship. Even with the Defiant's new armour, I don't think we can last that long with our shields down.
WORF: Sir, I have a suggestion.
(Defiant puts a tractor beam on an attacking ship.)
DAX: You were right, Mister Worf. The modulated tractor beam's deflecting some of the Klingons' disruptor fire.
WORF: Disruptor's effectiveness at fifty percent.
SISKO: Well done, Mister Worf. Lower shields. Sisko to transporter bay. Begin emergency transports.
edit: ...basically, it would be more a case of having a Tractor DOFF that drained Weapon Power to reduce the Effectiveness of Energy Weapons rather than their Accuracy..
Besides, since there are ways to buff accuracy a 50% reduction in energy weapon accuracy won't be the end of the world in PVP ... but can you imagine how angry PVPers would be if tractor beams reduced energy weapon power by 50%???
I'm just saying tractor beams could use a buff in the game to give that ability a better tactical advantage, and a 50% reduction in energy weapon accuracy at least has a basis in Trek lore.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
"(...)the modulated tractor beam is deflecting some of the Klingons' disruptor fire (...)". As in the shot doesn't line up the way it's supposed to. That means, to me, exactly what the OP suggested, so an accuracy debuff would be appropriate. 50% of course seems to be an awful lot in game mechanics, but I'd like that.
Maybe it could be a whle new boff ability (engineering maybe) to have a "debuff tractor beam" that doesn't root the target but merely slows a bit and debuffs. The Defiant in the given example doesn't root the Klingons, it merely "grapples" them. This I'd like to see in a ability, and engineering is in dire need of some new abilities to couter the trippin cooldown issue.
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Deflecting is a shield damage reduction or hull damage resistance mechanic...not an accuracy mechanic. Reducing the power level of the target, imho, would be easier to implement than trying to do an attacker specific boost to damage reduction/damage resistance based on them targeting the ship using the tractor.
As for rooting, the tractors in STO do not root. They can root, potentially - but they're actually a slow...along the lines of what you saw. It's one of the reasons you can move out of range of a tractor...because it's not a root, it's a slow.
But it doesn't have that basis in Trek lore. It has a basis for reducing the effectiveness of energy weapon fire via a damage reduction element. Reducing weapon power was just one example of how that could be done. You wouldn't need to reduce Weapon Power by 50% to reduce effectiveness by 50%.
-25 Weapon Power would be a 50% reduction in damage. Each point of Weapon Power is worth 2% damage.
Another example of a DOFF that could create such an effect would be by creating some form of scattering field around the target where such a diffusion envelope would deflect part of the outgoing damage and thus reduce the effectiveness of energy weapons. Along the lines of a Sci creating a PBAoE Scattering Field, there could be a DOFF for Tractor Beams that creates an outgoing Scattering Field on the target of the Tractor...reducing their outgoing energy damage.
From the combat sequence in question the Vor'Cha is able to match the Defiant maneuver for maneuver. Or in other words, the anti-mobility function of the tractor beam was replaced with the target scrambling function.
If you're advocating for the latter to be added based on what was shown in that EP, the former needs to be removed accordingly.
Virus has the best idea in that a Doff can be created with a proc that does the same thing.
R.I.P
There's already a doff to drain shield along with the TB. No need to make the TB totally OP by piling on.
I vote no.
Suits me just fine.
I just had a daymare about the OPs idea because a base change to TB means all TB pets woild also be affected. Imagine Danubes with this.
R.I.P
I'm just waiting for someone at Cryptic to be hilariously evil and give the TBR pull doff to an NPC or two.
You're limited to a single TBO...you couldn't pile on...but you'd have variety in choice.
I don't understand why you'd argue with damage reduction in the OPs case. The modified beam deflected the Klingons weapons, as in "make them miss" not "make them do less damage". And to make someone in the game miss you don't lower their power levels. Granted, I don't know the game mechanics wther accuracy is the mechanical right term but I, as well as the OP, would assume that it is.
Regarding the root, thanks for the explanation. But don't at least borg tractor beams root? Since without initiating a break you cannot move while TB'd, can't you?
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Where was anything stated about making them miss? You can't deflect something unless it hits something. Even if it does not hit the intended target, it still hit something.
Tom's trying to hit Jerry with a quilting needle...
Jerry deflects the attack by parrying it with his own needle. It still hit Jerry's needle.
Jerry deflects the attack by holding up a serving platter. It still hit the serving platter.
A miss is a miss...a deflection is not a miss.
Shields deflect damage away from the hull - the deflector array deflects space doohickey debris and particles away from the ship. All of those things still hit something - it's not a case of them missing.
By reducing the accuracy, reducing the target of the tractor's ability to hit - you're not deflecting.
So the logical step would be to look at what mechanic most closely resembles a reduction in effectiveness of an energy weapon in a situation where shields are not being used deflect the attack and what the result of said deflection would be...a reduction in the damage being done.
Evasive, Eng Batt, EPtE...increase speed...move out of range. Tractor broken without using APO/PH.
Then again, you can move using EPtE without even having an engine equipped...fun stuff they do sometimes, eh?
If I'm not mistaken that's what we see: http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080817053848/memoryalpha/en/images/6/69/USS_Defiant_tractors_Vorcha_class.jpg - the moment the Defiant applies the tractor beam, the Klingon Vor'Cha starts to miss.
I'm a ecologist and not an physicist, but isn't it possible to deflect a stream of charged particles via magnetic fields? In any case, the effect is that the ship tractoring the opponent is not hit by it's weapon fire, thus reducing the accuracy and making it miss is more appropriate than lowering the damage done by a hit.
We see the shields aren't "hit" but the disruptor beam effectively passing by the Defiant.
I get your point, though the on-screen material the OP was referring to depicted the Vor'Cha miss the target after applying the modified TB. I think making it miss is more appropriate.
You are right, I treated that effect as a "break", thank you for the clarification
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The issue we have with Canon, is it is still just fictional. We weren't on History channel watching Modern Marvels: Starfleet...heh. Star Trek is full of half-baked things like this...
The concern with the Accuracy debuff as opposed to a Damage debuff is that would include Projectile weapons as well - would also affect procs...etc, etc, etc. It would be a pretty heinous mechanic change...
And given that Accuracy vs. Defense isn't a straight formula...well, it will mean different things at different times and be something that's pretty hard to balance.
Huh? I can see it being any of the three.
I have no issue with a tractor beam having this kind of effect provided it loses some of it's other effects (like when you use a Doff to reverse your repulsors). My issue is that most of these other effects are available through other Boff skils so why not take those skills? The only reason I can see is because you could possibly then have the same effect from different systems, affecting cooldown rates.
t/p/o Kontovar (Male Lethean Engineer in Imperial Assassins)
t/p/o Mira (Female Rom-KDF Tactical)
t/p/o Kreela (Female Ferengi Science in United Solar Legion)
t/p/o Star-Astra (Female Alien-Fed Tactical)
I don't know wether it's bad or not. I mean any info they could give on the "modified tractor beam" would be technobabble anyway, so we don't really need that
I can't rewatch the whole scene, but you seem to have. If the Vor'Cha hits before (I think she does) and misses afterwards then that's most likely the TBs effect. If you meant that the Defiant missed a few shots then I'd say it's because she uses cannons. Cannons are unguided weapons whereas a beam *should* in theory not be able to miss if it's not manipulated by electronic countermessaures or the like. Only in STO cannons are magically homing their target If you meant that the Vor'Cha missed before, well. I don't know. Plot shielding?
Regarding the in-game consequences of such a mechanic, that's another animal entirely and up to the devs to decide. But I still like the idea of a tractor beam ability like that, I'd like to see it in the engineering department. This way, engineering would get a debuff and a new ability that doesn't trip other cooldowns. It could still start the sci tractor cooldown, however.
The thing is, the shows show us a lot of instances where we could draw "abilities" from. But instead many of the current BOFF abilities make not much sense and were neve shown on-screen. Take "Aceton Beam" for example. Starfleet shoots poisenous radiation on enemy ships and watches them die slowly? I could buy that's a Klingon weapon but in either case, a Aceton Beam was never mentioned in the shows, at least I think so. Why not use stuff we actually saw in some way?
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It's a neutral ability. If a Fed player felt that it was not something they should use, then they shouldn't use it. But it's a neutral ability.
Aceton Assimilators on the other hand, are a KDF specific gear item. That they have them is kind of curious, but perhaps that's how Cryptic thinks of the Klingons...meh.
But AA's were used by the Menthar (who basically caused their own extinction in their war against the Promellians. AA's were actually seen in the TNG episode Booby Trap.
To "weaponize" them as a beam instead of a device is not much of a leap, after having given the device to the KDF.
Another thing to keep in mind regarding "Canon"...is that it's 2409. It's 30 years after Nemesis and 22 years after the flashback from JJTrek. We're not playing TOS Online, TNG Online, VOY Online, DS9 Online, ENT Online...it's STO...time's moved forward.
Phasers are one of the few scifi weapons that actually has a stun setting, and to do so they basically have to use made-up technobabble stuff like nadion particles and so on. (somehow disruptors also have a stun setting but I never understood how/why they felt a need to say that, as disruptors being kill beams is what sets them apart from phasers IMO) Despite this, and the fact that many of Trek's characters are supposed to be noble heroes, they nevertheless have a 'kill' setting, and killing is killing. Whether it be from the 'vaporisation' of a phaser set to kill or radiation poisoning from an aceton beam, you're just as dead. And hell, Star Trek medical science is able to repair the damage from radiation exposure anyway.
How about a special Tractor Beam Officer doff that fundamentally changes the power, just as the TBR doff does: Tractor Beam degrades target's accuracy by 50%, but target's movement is no longer degraded. So it loses the hold/slow.
No. This is a really not a very wise move at all.
Cruisers are pretty tanky already.
Under such a proposal every cruiser and I'm sure escort as well, will run with a copy of tractor beams which will provide them with significant immunity.
I mean who would not want to nullify an opponent attack by 50%, + then throw in a warp core engineer + anti matter specialist and a couple of damage control doffs and quite frankly what damage would you be taking?
Power does not mean anything, if you are MISSING the target most of the time.
I played the video through to completion, and I think this would adversely affect PvP more than PvE, esp. if this mechanic would apply to pets as well?
Find a heavy hitter on the opposing team? Ah, no problem you guys run off and do your thing... and I'll just tractor the ... out of him for the duration of the match.
If you are basing the proposal on cannon, well then seeing as tractor beam drain tremendous power from the ship's warp core to sustain it, under such a proposal it would only seem fair that the ship using tractor beam has a 50% power drain across the board, and a significant reduction in speed and maneuverability.
Apologies to the OP if I come across as somewhat insanely intense. I just don't believe that this is the right move.
See it this way: Such a mechanic could make team coordination and formations viable. Protect your heavy hitter from nimble ships that break through and grapple him, throw buffs on him etc. Additionally, in terms of balancing you could always add a immunity to the effect once it's over and further, you are acting as if a tractor beam would persist permanently until the match is over.
Be it PvE or PvP, introducing any kind of change is hard because established tactics might not work anymore and people will rage. I'm not saying that the modified tractor beam is the end-to-all skill or something, but being a bit open minded about it can't hurt.
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That's assuming that everybody against a particular change is against change at all...that they haven't thought things out and have reasons to oppose something. It's very dismissive...and kind of a cop out reply to an argument where one might as well say, "You simply do not know what you are talking about and are wrong. I am right."
When somebody points things out that I did not think of, my usual reply is going to involve thanking them for pointing it out and calling myself stupid for not thinking of it myself in the first place...heh.
If I feel the need to continue pushing my idea, I'll try to work toward some form of compromise taking into consideration their points. If I see no way around the issues they have presented, then I'll just drop it.
One can see elements of that from a few folks in this thread where they disagreed with various aspects and offered potential compromises...or added in various aspects that in their opinion would better balance the suggestion.
While there might be the odd joke made every now and again, there's a reason that there are some folks that you'll mainly see posting in this area of the forum - or perhaps various other subforums - while avoiding General Troll like the plague. They're actually interested in discussing the game, going back and forth over the mechanics, etc, etc, etc - rather than all that trolling nonsense that takes place with half-arsed or half-baked replies that take place in General Discussion.
No, I'm not going to take whatever drk says as Gospel without any thought - I think about anything that I read (I'm far too opinionated not to do so, lol) - and while I don't know drk personally, I know quite a bit of the history of how he's been involved with the community here...so I wouldn't write off anything he said as him just being opposed to change. I might not agree with him in the end, but I wouldn't just write it off without giving what he's said some thought.
I've put my PVP hat aside for the New Year, so I try to avoid commenting on PvP angles - though the odd balance thing stands out like a sore thumb...but if he's bringing up such concerns, well - I'd say they deserve to be discussed and taken into consideration.
But honestly, what would be the point? ZERO.
Best to work on other areas of the game as opposed to spending time on something that isn't broken.
Technically, they need to do both... fix what's broken and add new things (hopefully not broken).
Well, to this point, I don't "call myself stupid for not thinking of it.", but if I'm presenting an idea for consideration, that's where the part of "I'm not going to necessarily think of ever angle & aspect this could affect", comes into play. That's actually part of why I personally, throw ideas out there, so I CAN get others' viewpoints, and takes on things.
On the next,
I may not let it drop, but as long as it's been a good discussion, I just may have to call it, "Agree to disagree", instead of getting toxic & nasty about it. Unfortunately, a great many people out in the world today, seem to have issues regarding any viewpoint other than their own, as valid. Whereas I look at it, "I can't learn anything, if I close my mind to ideas and people out there."
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Zactly! You already get to hold (and fold, lol) them in your DHC Arc, having them right where you want, doing significant extra damage. To pile on, as I said earlier, and cause a vessel to suffer "-50% energy weapons accuracy" (as per the OP) on top of that, well, that is just way over the top.
And yes, there's a purple doff to drain a wee bit of shield too when using TB. But that does, in no way, equate to what's being proposed here.