Why? I suppose the question that keeps coming to my mind, is why the players need to feel that they have to be able to complet elite content with standard gear. Normal content, sure I will give you that... Advanced, ok... but it should be difficult... Elite... sure... if you truely are an elite player, then it should be an extreme challenge to complete with Mk X white gear... If you aren't an elite player, then you should (rightfully) fail the mission, until you are able to raise your skill to meet the challenge before you.
Edit: There can be room for both types of players... You can play the game on normal, if you find it too easy, ramp up the difficulty, too hard ... dial it back to your comfort level. But why reduce difficulty to the lowest common denominator because an average player wants to consider themselves "elite". I would say, that by doing this... you can also turn off/away the players who enjoy a challenge (such as myself).
Are you saying there's a group of 5 ppl in white mk x gear completing elite stfs? In free tier 4 ships? Did Cryptic change estfs while I wasn't looking?:rolleyes:
It also has more to do with piloting and setup than gears. Try completing any stf in a "canon" fit ship with rear facing torps/cannons and a weird set of boff skills, as rpers and trekkies do, and you'll have difficulty in any gear. Cryptic has already said that both turrets + dhcs for all forward dps, and beam broadside, were unexpected player adaptations. The game was intended to work with canonical fits.
If you find it too easy, it's because you min-maxing mmoers found workarounds to the original vision of star trek, even if you don't see it as such. Stop cheating and it'll be harder.:D
There's also the difficulty slider that nobody use. If this is such a big issue for you, use it.
Actually, the fix is quite easy. Not difficult to implement either.
First, rename everything "Elite" towards "advanced", especially the older STF's. Then add a truly Elite mode.
Take Khitomer for example. How about we replace the probes with spheres? And the cubes by tactical cubes? How about letting Donatra do damage instead of the cloak-->Thalaron tactic? And maybe, just maybe, place some spheres at the generators to begin with. That could be a challenge for some highly-specialized players, and would make cruisers and science vessels a welcome addon to the teams.
This STF would offer even better rewards, triple the normal mode rewards.
What say you?
Spheres? Great they might last all of 5 or 6 seconds. Tac cubes? 20s if they're lucky.
Are you saying there's a group of 5 ppl in white mk x gear completing elite stfs? In free tier 4 ships? Did Cryptic change estfs while I wasn't looking?:rolleyes:
It also has more to do with piloting and setup than gears. Try completing any stf in a "canon" fit ship with rear facing torps/cannons and a weird set of boff skills, as rpers and trekkies do, and you'll have difficulty in any gear. Cryptic has already said that both turrets + dhcs for all forward dps, and beam broadside, were unexpected player adaptations. The game was intended to work with canonical fits.
If you find it too easy, it's because you min-maxing mmoers found workarounds to the original vision of star trek, even if you don't see it as such. Stop cheating and it'll be harder.:D
There's also the difficulty slider that nobody use. If this is such a big issue for you, use it.
As a matter of fact, there are teams of people who can complete elitestfs in free t4 ships, with mk x gear... been teamed with them, if I remember correctly one had green Mk VIII.
If they want to fly canon gear, I get it... its fine... good luck to them... what I am saying is that it shouldn't be "elite" if thats all that is required to complete it, then its not elite... its normal. I am in no way saying that they shouldn't play the game their way. However, a mishmash of skills, boff abilities, etc should not dictate what the Elite version requires. The Elite version should require that you have a decent understanding of game mechanics, enemy faced, how to attack them, and developed a strategy to defeat the mission.
Personally, I take a little offense to saying that I, or others like me, are cheating in anyway. Why? Because we can read the desciptions, we experiment with different weapons, different skills (and skill combinations), find effective tactics, experiment/test/and modify our skill trees to be more effective, or learn the game that is presented to us? The term min-maxer, while you attempt to use it in a derogatory manner, is someone who is dedictaed to the game, enjoys it enough to invest a significant amount of time to learning how to excel at the game... and should be able to be proud of being able to complete "Elite" content.
To say that the content should be made so easy at the "ELITE" level that the type of player you describe can complete it with ease, is purely dismissive.
At no time am I asking that all levels of the game play be brought up to my standards of difficulty. I have said several times that the average player should be able to complete the missions on normal mode. If they want to progress beyond that, they really need to work at it... and shouldn't expect to complete the elite level content without some investment in understanding how everything works.
Finally, my difficulty slider has been set on elite from roughly about a week after I joined this game.
Actually, the fix is quite easy. Not difficult to implement either.
First, rename everything "Elite" towards "advanced", especially the older STF's. Then add a truly Elite mode.
Take Khitomer for example. How about we replace the probes with spheres? And the cubes by tactical cubes? How about letting Donatra do damage instead of the cloak-->Thalaron tactic? And maybe, just maybe, place some spheres at the generators to begin with. That could be a challenge for some highly-specialized players, and would make cruisers and science vessels a welcome addon to the teams.
This STF would offer even better rewards, triple the normal mode rewards.
What say you?
thought for a moment there the next upgrade from the tactical cube with the tactical fusion cube.:rolleyes:
i want the older stf's back, since the player base is good the queue system is not needed for this part either and GO would have a use again.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I didn't say the Voth were 'difficult' per se, but they're a step up from anything else Cryptic has thrown at us. At least the Voth try. You should stop and see how many major tactical abilities a Voth Citadel is spamming! (and at a rate we can only dream of ourselves).
What's interesting about the Voth is it looks like the Devs are actually trying to give us a more entertianing opponent than overpowered morons that rely on brute force to get things done. They're a nice change of pace in that regard.
The Borg, on the other hand, it looks like they've given up on. Most of their challenge comes from bugs and input lag. They've just become plain boring. Sad, really. :rolleyes:
Criticism, while never agreeable, is necessary. It is like pain in the body. It brings attention to an unhealthy state of things---Winston Churchill
Actually, the fix is quite easy. Not difficult to implement either.
First, rename everything "Elite" towards "advanced", especially the older STF's. Then add a truly Elite mode.
Take Khitomer for example. How about we replace the probes with spheres? And the cubes by tactical cubes? How about letting Donatra do damage instead of the cloak-->Thalaron tactic? And maybe, just maybe, place some spheres at the generators to begin with. That could be a challenge for some highly-specialized players, and would make cruisers and science vessels a welcome addon to the teams.
This STF would offer even better rewards, triple the normal mode rewards.
What say you?
Considering what we're currently seeing, I'd bet people wouldn't be playing the harder ones, except for perhaps some one-time accolade-hunting tour. Take a look at the queues, you can see people aren't running the more difficult missions, but those that reward marks easy and reliable.
If you were to add "UberEilte" STF, for example, and just reward more of the normal rewards (skill points, dilithium, marks), you'd probably get 2 different outcomes:
A: They're challenging => The majority simply won't play them and stick to grinding KASE and ISE or breed Epohhs as they're less risky. The new, hard STFs would share the same fate as The Hive, Ground STFs, the Vault or Tholian Ground.
B: They're not challenging => Everyone will replace the old ones immediately and start facerolling the harder ones, Spire or Breach "Elite" for instance...
Considering what we're currently seeing, I'd bet people wouldn't be playing the harder ones, except for perhaps some one-time accolade-hunting tour. Take a look at the queues, you can see people aren't running the more difficult missions, but those that reward marks easy and reliable.
If you were to add "UberEilte" STF, for example, and just reward more of the normal rewards (skill points, dilithium, marks), you'd probably get 2 different outcomes:
A: They're challenging => The majority simply won't play them and stick to grinding KASE and ISE or breed Epohhs as they're less risky. The new, hard STFs would share the same fate as The Hive, Ground STFs, the Vault or Tholian Ground.
B: They're not challenging => Everyone will replace the old ones immediately and start facerolling the harder ones, Spire or Breach "Elite" for instance...
Unfortunately, you're spot on. Given the games grind nature, the equation you find now is how do I earn the most X in the shortest amount of time. We need so many currencies, that even someone who plays daily for several hours is making decisions on how best to get the marks. If it's too hard, takes too much time... then the mission gets passed. As an example, go to one of the Elite STF or DPS channels and see what fills first, an ISE or a HSE.
Sadly, I have to admit, I make thesse decisions myself... I can run around doing the missions on New Romulas for 5 Romulan Marks, or I can do a Tau Dewa daily for 60. If I just keep going into the X system, I am done in 5 rounds, got my marks... and I move on to the next grind.
With the launch of S8, I rolled a new toon... used an existing toon to get the sponsorship tokens for each rep, then proceeded to grind out the marks/dilithium/xp, all the while continuing to grind for Fleet Marks to keep fleet holdings moving. Would grind multiple toons, and shift resources (Dil/EC) to the new toon... I had a set routine... Sign in to Character A - Rich dilithium claim + 1 STF (ISE) + A Battlezone run... most days I got more dilithium then I needed... repeated the exact same process on 2 other characters... transferred to new character.. run a CEE, Tag some Epohhs, a STF or two (space of course... these are now very fast... I avoid things that are too difficult unless I was done with my grind, all all projects started (which wasn't most days). Since completing Rom and Nukara... stopped playing CEE, and stopped tagging epohhs... Heck, I remember being a little miffed when Terradome was removed... then relized, I probably hadn't run it in 6 months to a year...
I found myself wondering yesterday, as I slotted the last Thwart Voth Efforts project that will unlock T5... what am I going to do tomorrow? I looked through the fleet holdings, and all the projects are moving nicely... generally nothing sits open for too long... I looked through the rep stores... nothing there is really calling out to me...
This is when I look for the challenge, my grind is about done... the problem is... me. Since I ignored the harder content, the in game metrics (that the dec's/company use to show what kind of content the players play (read as want) show that players (myself included) deep down inside really don't want hard content... but they do like rep systems (because I made sure EVERYDAY that my projects were filled and running). They do want the new and shiny consoles with a .00001 boost to x...
This STF would offer even better rewards, triple the normal mode rewards.
What say you?
Currently, payouts sure seem to be computed around "time invested". With certain lines of thought, a higher-grade (elite) mission "pays" higher than a "normal" grade mission because, theoretically, it takes longer to blow up all those elite grade enemies than normal grade ones...
However, especially in light of the primary concept behind this thread (need a new "tougher" challenge to counteract the power creep in the game), then the payout is already "calibrated" for 15 minutes of work, the "super elite" mode is just a response to power creep. Therefore, there is no need to "triple normal mode reward".
And before you attempt to use my own logic against me in some way, shape, or form (look at all the time invested to reach this level of power), I say this - remembering the flak thrown at NWS from "casual" people who can't complete the mission and get the extremely high mark/time payout ratio, and the flak thrown at "Hive Space", heck, the flak thrown at any "bar" being placed to block out immediate access to the "current" elite content - basically there should be no bar blocking immediate access to the high payout content and that it should be completable by most "semi-competent casual players who know enough to match weapon types and load up on tactical consoles with a modicum of strategy that can be quickly chatted via text", if "super elite" pays more than "elite", it needs to be "easy enough" to meet this bar, not some "hardcore only" level, and honestly, the people who want (need) the extra challenge are very "hardcore" players who have devoted the time etc. necessary to faceroll current content...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Comments
Are you saying there's a group of 5 ppl in white mk x gear completing elite stfs? In free tier 4 ships? Did Cryptic change estfs while I wasn't looking?:rolleyes:
It also has more to do with piloting and setup than gears. Try completing any stf in a "canon" fit ship with rear facing torps/cannons and a weird set of boff skills, as rpers and trekkies do, and you'll have difficulty in any gear. Cryptic has already said that both turrets + dhcs for all forward dps, and beam broadside, were unexpected player adaptations. The game was intended to work with canonical fits.
If you find it too easy, it's because you min-maxing mmoers found workarounds to the original vision of star trek, even if you don't see it as such. Stop cheating and it'll be harder.:D
There's also the difficulty slider that nobody use. If this is such a big issue for you, use it.
Spheres? Great they might last all of 5 or 6 seconds. Tac cubes? 20s if they're lucky.
As a matter of fact, there are teams of people who can complete elitestfs in free t4 ships, with mk x gear... been teamed with them, if I remember correctly one had green Mk VIII.
If they want to fly canon gear, I get it... its fine... good luck to them... what I am saying is that it shouldn't be "elite" if thats all that is required to complete it, then its not elite... its normal. I am in no way saying that they shouldn't play the game their way. However, a mishmash of skills, boff abilities, etc should not dictate what the Elite version requires. The Elite version should require that you have a decent understanding of game mechanics, enemy faced, how to attack them, and developed a strategy to defeat the mission.
Personally, I take a little offense to saying that I, or others like me, are cheating in anyway. Why? Because we can read the desciptions, we experiment with different weapons, different skills (and skill combinations), find effective tactics, experiment/test/and modify our skill trees to be more effective, or learn the game that is presented to us? The term min-maxer, while you attempt to use it in a derogatory manner, is someone who is dedictaed to the game, enjoys it enough to invest a significant amount of time to learning how to excel at the game... and should be able to be proud of being able to complete "Elite" content.
To say that the content should be made so easy at the "ELITE" level that the type of player you describe can complete it with ease, is purely dismissive.
At no time am I asking that all levels of the game play be brought up to my standards of difficulty. I have said several times that the average player should be able to complete the missions on normal mode. If they want to progress beyond that, they really need to work at it... and shouldn't expect to complete the elite level content without some investment in understanding how everything works.
Finally, my difficulty slider has been set on elite from roughly about a week after I joined this game.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
thought for a moment there the next upgrade from the tactical cube with the tactical fusion cube.:rolleyes:
i want the older stf's back, since the player base is good the queue system is not needed for this part either and GO would have a use again.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
What's interesting about the Voth is it looks like the Devs are actually trying to give us a more entertianing opponent than overpowered morons that rely on brute force to get things done. They're a nice change of pace in that regard.
The Borg, on the other hand, it looks like they've given up on. Most of their challenge comes from bugs and input lag. They've just become plain boring. Sad, really. :rolleyes:
Considering what we're currently seeing, I'd bet people wouldn't be playing the harder ones, except for perhaps some one-time accolade-hunting tour. Take a look at the queues, you can see people aren't running the more difficult missions, but those that reward marks easy and reliable.
If you were to add "UberEilte" STF, for example, and just reward more of the normal rewards (skill points, dilithium, marks), you'd probably get 2 different outcomes:
A: They're challenging => The majority simply won't play them and stick to grinding KASE and ISE or breed Epohhs as they're less risky. The new, hard STFs would share the same fate as The Hive, Ground STFs, the Vault or Tholian Ground.
B: They're not challenging => Everyone will replace the old ones immediately and start facerolling the harder ones, Spire or Breach "Elite" for instance...
Unfortunately, you're spot on. Given the games grind nature, the equation you find now is how do I earn the most X in the shortest amount of time. We need so many currencies, that even someone who plays daily for several hours is making decisions on how best to get the marks. If it's too hard, takes too much time... then the mission gets passed. As an example, go to one of the Elite STF or DPS channels and see what fills first, an ISE or a HSE.
Sadly, I have to admit, I make thesse decisions myself... I can run around doing the missions on New Romulas for 5 Romulan Marks, or I can do a Tau Dewa daily for 60. If I just keep going into the X system, I am done in 5 rounds, got my marks... and I move on to the next grind.
With the launch of S8, I rolled a new toon... used an existing toon to get the sponsorship tokens for each rep, then proceeded to grind out the marks/dilithium/xp, all the while continuing to grind for Fleet Marks to keep fleet holdings moving. Would grind multiple toons, and shift resources (Dil/EC) to the new toon... I had a set routine... Sign in to Character A - Rich dilithium claim + 1 STF (ISE) + A Battlezone run... most days I got more dilithium then I needed... repeated the exact same process on 2 other characters... transferred to new character.. run a CEE, Tag some Epohhs, a STF or two (space of course... these are now very fast... I avoid things that are too difficult unless I was done with my grind, all all projects started (which wasn't most days). Since completing Rom and Nukara... stopped playing CEE, and stopped tagging epohhs... Heck, I remember being a little miffed when Terradome was removed... then relized, I probably hadn't run it in 6 months to a year...
I found myself wondering yesterday, as I slotted the last Thwart Voth Efforts project that will unlock T5... what am I going to do tomorrow? I looked through the fleet holdings, and all the projects are moving nicely... generally nothing sits open for too long... I looked through the rep stores... nothing there is really calling out to me...
This is when I look for the challenge, my grind is about done... the problem is... me. Since I ignored the harder content, the in game metrics (that the dec's/company use to show what kind of content the players play (read as want) show that players (myself included) deep down inside really don't want hard content... but they do like rep systems (because I made sure EVERYDAY that my projects were filled and running). They do want the new and shiny consoles with a .00001 boost to x...
Sigh... I'm part of the problem...
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Currently, payouts sure seem to be computed around "time invested". With certain lines of thought, a higher-grade (elite) mission "pays" higher than a "normal" grade mission because, theoretically, it takes longer to blow up all those elite grade enemies than normal grade ones...
However, especially in light of the primary concept behind this thread (need a new "tougher" challenge to counteract the power creep in the game), then the payout is already "calibrated" for 15 minutes of work, the "super elite" mode is just a response to power creep. Therefore, there is no need to "triple normal mode reward".
And before you attempt to use my own logic against me in some way, shape, or form (look at all the time invested to reach this level of power), I say this - remembering the flak thrown at NWS from "casual" people who can't complete the mission and get the extremely high mark/time payout ratio, and the flak thrown at "Hive Space", heck, the flak thrown at any "bar" being placed to block out immediate access to the "current" elite content - basically there should be no bar blocking immediate access to the high payout content and that it should be completable by most "semi-competent casual players who know enough to match weapon types and load up on tactical consoles with a modicum of strategy that can be quickly chatted via text", if "super elite" pays more than "elite", it needs to be "easy enough" to meet this bar, not some "hardcore only" level, and honestly, the people who want (need) the extra challenge are very "hardcore" players who have devoted the time etc. necessary to faceroll current content...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]