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cruisin1500
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I wonder if the developers have any kind of clue where all the consoles and gear and buffs will lead or be capped, where does it end? Do we keep getting more powerful consoles etc?
Will future content reflect the true power of some players and once again test them?
I hear of players being able to run elite stfs by themselves, and not only by themself as if that isn't bad enough, but with many minutes to spare. If the only way to do this is to spend huge amounts of money or get lots of powerful gear after years and only a niche few can do this, then I guess it is fine right?
But what was the vision of the designers? That stfs were for five man teams and would challenge them.
So what's next? Content which requires five 'uber' players to complete (which would then be beyond the realm of the average population) or 'super elite mode' with more rewards?
To me the only option would be 'super elite' since you can't nerf the whole array of items you've added to the game.
If ever I reached the point where I could do an elite stf by myself, I'd love a super elite mode with better rewards, which would severely test the build of 5 'super' players setups.
Will future content reflect the true power of some players and once again test them?
I hear of players being able to run elite stfs by themselves, and not only by themself as if that isn't bad enough, but with many minutes to spare. If the only way to do this is to spend huge amounts of money or get lots of powerful gear after years and only a niche few can do this, then I guess it is fine right?
But what was the vision of the designers? That stfs were for five man teams and would challenge them.
So what's next? Content which requires five 'uber' players to complete (which would then be beyond the realm of the average population) or 'super elite mode' with more rewards?
To me the only option would be 'super elite' since you can't nerf the whole array of items you've added to the game.
If ever I reached the point where I could do an elite stf by myself, I'd love a super elite mode with better rewards, which would severely test the build of 5 'super' players setups.
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Actual results: The dog spontaneously combusts and your teenage son suddenly becomes a straight A student.
Don't you get it? It's nerf or nothing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlnCttr5kEM
[Disclaimer] Actual results may vary. Side effects include: nausea, constipation, spending too much time on the forums, dry mouth, and spontaneous combustion. Monkeybone13 is not responsible for lost limbs, dementia, falling in love with a hamster, or spending too much time on the forums.
The same thing is happening in STO. When those elite STFs where made we did not have XII equipment and certainly not all the abilities that are on that stuff now. We also did not have all those reputation passives, ships even close to a strong as we have today etc. We also have DOFF abilities now which can pretty heavily change the power of your ship. There used to be nothing that changed the cooldown of powers, cooldown of torpedoes etc. Power levels where also FAR lower than they are now.
The problem here however is that it's not older content that is trivialized. There has been no level cap increase to draw a line between older content and new. In STO all enemies are equally powerless against the upward slope of player power. The brand new bad guys are just as impotent as the oldest of them.
I believe they are (or have) painted themselves into a corner here... they release some playable content, but a lot of gear/abilities as content as well. They do not generally go back and update finished/available missions. They are constantly working on the next new thing.
The problem is... eventually new gear isn't enough. As the OP pointed out, there are people who can solo Elite STF's with the optional... people pumping out 20, 30, or even 40k in damage (keep in mind less than a year ago good damage was in the 7-8k range (iirc)).
So they are going to be in a lurch on what to do... we don't need new gear... we need a challenge to face (and for the love of all things Holy, making sure that each rep project/starbase prioject/holding project has been filled is NOT the end game challenge ANY of us are looking for).
So... they can dramatically increase HP and Damage for NPCs (Cryptic translates this as Exceedingly high Spike damage that could take out a planet focused on 1 ship (one shot kills). Which, inevitably, causes forum rage because people hate to lose.
Or redo the entire AI for NPC groups in every mission to make them smarter, higher sustained DPS, able to self/cross heal, etc etc... but will they go back and change existing content?
Or Level cap increases, where the next level of enemy is more difficult and the new content unlocks at level 60 using the info above as a guideline (smarter, stronger (not read as ZOMG spike damage) NPC's. At this point, no new gear is required... Perhaps a series of "resurgence" events where known enemies begin making new pushes into controlled space.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
so in a team game with either choice you would still end up with some players with better gear then others but overall the play level would be fairly well matched to the team or the team would be fairly well matched to the play level.
this should also adjust in real time if one or more players drop out for any reason, so sure 1 player might in theory be able to finish an stf playing solo but it would be hardly any easier with a full team.
naturally when playing a solo game such as when they repeat the story missions and such the level of the players weapons and such would automatically be set to the level the mission was designed to be played in.
don't expect any players to be happy with a change like that though.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
No. Having mechanics other than firing doesn't make them any "harder". Their damage output pales in comparison to ours, and so does their ability to take damage. Tholians and Voth are as weak as any other enemies in the game.
The idea of using different strategies to deal with different enemies is difficulty. Just adding more hp and damage is not difficulty at all.
The point is that player power continues to scale up while NPC enemy power remains minimal and unchallenging.
The same can be said about the Tholian web, or the Voth frontal shield.
The Voth have some OP weapon like the Borg did (the shield penetration torp is really nasty), and thus, hit harder when they get lucky (GW followed by SNB when yo utry to escape with a torp in the meantime is pretty difficult to resist, however, it's just pure luck). Just like the Borg with the invisible instakill torp.
Tholians however, are just annoying flies.
Overall though the point remains that a game is not fun or more interesting to play if they just increase damage we do, damage we can take and then do the same to the enemies. Where is the difficulty in an enemy that just hits harder and has more hp? We need more mechanics for enemies to use. They need to help each other more, do more to change their shield facings, do more to repair damaged systems etc. They also need to gang up better. If they find that someone is an easier target they should concentrate fire to nail them.
I remember the days when power balancing mattered, now there are builds/powers/doffs/consoles which enable you to keep 125 power in each system ALL the time. Kudos for these builds, being powerful is fun, I am not saying people shouldn't or cant get powerful, especially after investing time, money, thinking into their build.
But in the end we all reach there, or most of us. Isn't one of the fun things in the stf's team work? I like guarding the vortex or kang. Instead of missions where we can all just group up and zerg the enemy, the missions where you have to split up into different necessary roles is fun. Like cure stf, I remember the nightmares of people spending hours trying to complete cure and not being able to pass the gates.
Things which 'force' team work or specific goals that one team member must accomplish, is good for 'team' missions. So force is not a bad word here, you aren't forcing a solo player to doing anything, you are making players in a team, do things which are team oriented.
I think this is one of the reasons I find vortex and cure space fun still. I just tell the others focus on killing stuff dont fire a shot at the probes, I've got them covered with my sci powers. They don't have to worry about losing the optional and don't have to waste shots on other stuff.
Some other content is just painful to complete like the azure nebula rescue...
Anyway in the end, I think the overall goal is that they don't have a specific plan, they are just, "hey, that would be a cool power or doff, or console, let's add that!" with no thought of exactly how it affects other things.
ADD ADD ADD.
Not doing the old 'compare' to eve online thing, but we can compare good design. In eve they made some difficult content in worm hole space involving 'sleepers'. Unless you specialized in certain ships roles, you will die. Once specialized you can complete them 100% ok, but you still have to focus and concentrate, because one mistake could mean the death of you, and depending on your role, a chain reaction of death.
The AI could really use work, cross heal etc... focus fire.
That's why there's supposed to be a spread of content difficulty. Right now the game only presents a challenge to the folks who have no idea that their critH% exists.
And frankly most pug-fails in STFs I've seen are due to people not understanding the steps; not a lack of pure dps. In fact, when the bonus in Conduit is blown it's usually because some yahoo demonstrated his dps by vaporizing a generator as fast as he could.
Maybe elite and super elite should be something you have to unlock. Have to complete the regular version in x time, or do x damage, or heal x amount or something before you can do the elite version. So not some kind of progression but something you have to actually unlock through action. It should not just be completing normal though since someone could just solo that and unlock the entire team for it.
I'm not necessarily advocating this, but in Neverwinter this problem is dealt with by locking players out of elite dungeons if they don't meet some minimum gear score.
I just prefer to tie it to performance if possible. It keeps out people that get the equipment but don't know how to do the mission.
I agree completely; I'd rather see the locking mechanism revolve around achievements. I was just pointing out that the problem has been solved before.
Anyway I just came from a 'normal' run of breach and I really thought it would be easier. But seemed I was the only one doing any real damage or staying alive. Is that the state really of people who do the normals? Or I just had a generally casual group.
See I'll say casual and not 'bad' players. Because for casual players these, run times and missions are just, laid back stuff, they don't care that much about builds, dying, etc as long as they get it done. So I won't call them bad players or weak links, it's just they are not as 'into' it as us or others. Since I guess most of us put in some good time it's a hobby and we want to be the best we can at it just to satisfy our own ego
But yeh that disclaimer aside, it was terible. Would you say that average player is kin to be this weak?
I don't think that's entirely true. The Voth can really bring on the hurt: subnuking, Aceton stuff, and a shield-drain that would make the Borg jealous.
Ultimately, though, the power-creep is inevitable, and inherent to how MMO's like STO work. Without new incentives for you to spend your money, you won't. It's that simple.
Correct; we covered that back on page 1 or 2. And the other half of that equation is content that matches this newfound power. This is the half that is missing from STO.
Like I said to the other person, I accept that you find the Voth to be a difficult opponent but your experience is not universal.
You can always play in higher difficulties, as you are meant to.
The thing with STO is it's a star trek mmo, not the kind of hardcore spreadsheeting mmo that games like Eve Online is. Overwhelming majority of players are on standard gear that you would npc nowadays, the same gear that you used 4 years ago. If Cryptic rises difficulty of existing content out of the reach of rpers and casual trekkies, it's game over for them.
You may have newfound power, but not everyone does.
I didn't say the Voth were 'difficult' per se, but they're a step up from anything else Cryptic has thrown at us. At least the Voth try.
Admittedly, I was using my own experience to guage the effectiveness of enemies. Hence I've been calling t he content too easy. However, (not being an Elitist here), I do ahve to recognize that there are players with differing level of skill.
Thats fine. In days gone by there used to be 3 levels of difficulty (Normal, Advanced, & Elite), and NPC's scaled with your selection.
The problem, as I see it, is that with the power creep, and bemoaning on the forums about "Elite being too hard/unbeatable" (I've never posted anything like that), is that we are faced with a two fold problem... Player Abilities/Power/Damage Potential is creeping up, while NPCs are being made "easier".
Everyone wants to think they are great at the game, but honestly, there SHOULD be scaling levels of difficulty, that should never, ever, back down... and complete failure is ALWAYS an option). If you can't complete Cure Space Elite, then you aren't ready... you should fail the mission... you should be encouraged to return to the Normal or Advanced version. Improve you skills and then try Elite again.
The Elite version should give even long time vets of the game a challenge... where minimally the NPC is a fair match (actually, IIRC Elite versions in the past were +2 levels above your current rank (i.e. 50)).
So, my answer to "if you make the elite difficulty challenging to the "super elite", then it becomes near impossible for the average player to complete" is... "yes, absolutely it does... but that doesn't mean that the average player can not improve to meet the challenge of elite, but should hone their skills in Normal/Advanced". Conversely, I would say, that by lowering the requirements of an Elite level mission so that the "average" player can complete it... by default/definition makes that the "Normal difficulty".
The next argument people make is that elite versions offer a higher reward than the normal version... well yes, of course they do... they're harder to complete, and as such should scale the rewards. Just because someone wantys to earn more marks per hour, if they can't complete an elite level mission, then they need to be satisfied with the Normal, or Advanced version until their skill rises to the ability to beat the Elite version.
If an elite player is finding the elite content too easy (i.e. the 50K DPS'er), fine... make a nightmare mode and take the freaking gloves off and truely amp up the damage, health, ability, AI of NPC's to insane levels...
So in the end, maybe 3 levels of difficulty isnt enough... so how about 5... Ensign/Cadet, Normal, Advanced, Elite, and Nightmare
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
Why? I suppose the question that keeps coming to my mind, is why the players need to feel that they have to be able to complet elite content with standard gear. Normal content, sure I will give you that... Advanced, ok... but it should be difficult... Elite... sure... if you truely are an elite player, then it should be an extreme challenge to complete with Mk X white gear... If you aren't an elite player, then you should (rightfully) fail the mission, until you are able to raise your skill to meet the challenge before you.
Edit: There can be room for both types of players... You can play the game on normal, if you find it too easy, ramp up the difficulty, too hard ... dial it back to your comfort level. But why reduce difficulty to the lowest common denominator because an average player wants to consider themselves "elite". I would say, that by doing this... you can also turn off/away the players who enjoy a challenge (such as myself).
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
I would like to see some kind of gated system though where everyone has access to a normal version and you have to unlock the elite and higher versions. This would be based on actual performance doing the previous tier version. That way you could not just join a team of people and have them do the mission and you get the automatic promotion to the next tier. It also means you can't just buy equipment and instantly have access to a higher tier (since you might not know the event, know how to play etc)
First, rename everything "Elite" towards "advanced", especially the older STF's. Then add a truly Elite mode.
Take Khitomer for example. How about we replace the probes with spheres? And the cubes by tactical cubes? How about letting Donatra do damage instead of the cloak-->Thalaron tactic? And maybe, just maybe, place some spheres at the generators to begin with. That could be a challenge for some highly-specialized players, and would make cruisers and science vessels a welcome addon to the teams.
This STF would offer even better rewards, triple the normal mode rewards.
What say you?
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