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Changelings vs Borg
masternecroman
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Think about it, if a Changeling attack force would assault the Borg they would destroy them.
There is no way of assimilating a changeling so the Borg are wubed.
Just wanted to share a train of thought. :rolleyes:
There is no way of assimilating a changeling so the Borg are wubed.
Just wanted to share a train of thought. :rolleyes:
Post edited by masternecroman on
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While its true we cant be 100% sure because they never meet on screen, why do you think a Borg cant assimilate a changeling? They are still made up from organic material. it just has the ability to change its shape. especially as we know they were humanoid at one point, so its not like they always had this ability.
Nanoprobes.
Nanotechnology deals with transformations on such a small level.
their transformation is not magic. they change their structure to form something else but they still a life form. they still have cells. the cells still have to house genetic material. they still have some type of nerves as they can feel pain, some type of optical ability to see.
some of the transformations were a little silly on DS9 and defy any kind of logic but you go with it because its a tv show.
they may be able to mimic water, or fog for example but on some level they are not actually water or fog.
If that would be done to the Great Link - which is nothing but an ocean made of organic matter - it would become Borg.
Only way to avoid it would the Founders to have a Species 8472 immunity level. And I doubt that, since Species 8472 was - in thousands of species the Borg assimilated - the only one which naturally resisted the Nanoprobes long enough to cause massive trouble.
Assuming they are resistant, though, they've still got a disadvantage. They couldn't infiltrate the Borg as they could Starfleet - that type of deception does not work on a shared consciousness. At least, not any more than Starfleet could infiltrate the Borg, they may be ignored while they move about ships, but any disruption would provoke a response, either assimilation or destruction.
That leaves the likely first contact between the Borg and Dominion with the Jem'hadar, regardless of which side initiates that contact. That would be an interesting war, since both sides are designed for wars of attrition but with opposite strategies.
The Jem'hadar and Vorta give us no reason why they could not be assimilated without difficulty (Ketracel White adiction may or may not reduce Jem'hadar usefulness as drones over time, but their knowledge could still be taken, and Vorta do not require special maintenance).
So, by assimilation, the Borg would quickly learn the location of the Founder's new homeworld. They may confirm or at least suspect difficulty with assimilating them. They would also know that the Dominion would be leaderless without them, leaving the Dominion's vast tracts of space and many subjugated races relatively free for the taking. Minor details like the Jem'hadar rampaging unchecked while they died off to White withdrawal would be deemed irrelevant.
The attack would not happen on the Dominion's terms this time.
The Dominion's best hope of defeating the Borg really lies with the Vorta. They appear to be relatively capable of independent action, its repeated several times that most Vorta and Jem'hadar never actually see a Founder and have no reason beyond genetic programming to believe they exist. It's plausible that the Vorta could maintain the Dominion's cohesion without the Founders directing them. If they could manage this relatively seamlessly after the Borg attack on the Founder's homeworld, then that attack may ultimately have little effect on the outcome of the war.
I believe this.
Borg assimilation is a proces that starts with nanoprobes infesting the victim's circulary system. Then they start adding the implants.
Changelings have to revert to a liquid shape every few hours (can't remember the number). At this point, they loose a circulary system, rendering the nanoprobes useless. Then the implants would most likely also fall out, since they were designed to stay in solid matter, not liquid. Voila, the Changeling is no longer assimilated.
What happens then? I remember the last line of the Borg campaign description:
We would have an all-out war. The Borg are hard-pressed. We know they are fighting a full-scale war in the Alpha Quadrant and are still at war with the Undine. Meanwhile, the Dominion has recently been reinforced by 2800 ships that were still good enough to take on a Federation/Klingon task force. With some retrofitting, the Dominion has a very powerful fleet.
Next to that, the Borg need to assimilate in order to get new drones. The Dominion can breed legions of Jem'Hadar in a matter of days if needed. Although the Borg can adapt to energy weapon directed at drones, each Jem'Hadar carries a pretty mean blade and has a bajonet on his rifle. Jem'Hadar can go full melee.
In space, the Borg would have the advantage. Their ships can regenerate themselves, where the ships of the Dominion cannot. Both sides should be capable of building ships at an incredible rate. The Borg might take a huge amount of punches from ramming Jem'Hadar ships, which evens the odds.
The Dominion can also rely on the support of its member worlds in this war. If the war would be a Federation invastion, many worlds would welcome the opportinity for independence. But these are the Borg. And really, if I could choose between obeying the Founders or assimilation.... choice easy made.
Meanwhile, assimilating the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta can be a really tough challenge. The Jem'Hadar would die off after a few days without Ketracel-White, unless the Borg can capture manufacturing bases. The Vorta will never be assimilated: the moment nanoprobes enter their body they would simply self-terminate and the next one in their line would walk out of some door.
Ultimately, I believe that this fight would be a good one for the Dominion. While both races can continue warfare for extended periods of time without having too much trouble with supplies and forces, the Borg are already engaged in major wars that demand a very high amount of recourses. The Dominion is not. I would not be surprised to see the Borg ultimately developing the ways of assimilating a Founder, but neither would I be if the Jem'Hadar are at that time already busy rounding up Transwarp Networks.
As for my final question: shouldn't this be in the RP forums?
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You are forgetting that Borg nanotechnology is also able to deal with foreign technology.
They can borgify a ship in no time.
That drives me to the conclusion that the physiology of the assimilated lifeform is of no concern - as long as you are not Species 8472.
Implants may not work. Nanoprobes would.
This exact line is why your assumption is wrong...
The process starts at the cellular level (or even at the technological level... The nano-probes don't care if there is circulation or not (evidenced by regular 24'th century probes being able to assimilate the Docs holoemitter).
So it's unreasonable to assume that the probes could not assimilate the individual morphogenic cells that make up a Changeling, regarless of it's shape.
Also, actual implants are not required for a borg drone, to be a borg drone... We saw a lot of drones in First Contact that had only the most basic setup when it came to tech, such as the drones assisting the organic implants on data.
now if we're talking about the whole dominion, it would be a different story, the dominion has very powerful ships, and is also perfectly willing to use suicide tactics to blow ships up as well, i don't think the dominion can win against the borg, but the borg certainly would have trouble dealing with them.
and really, i dislike how the borg are made to be this huge boogeyman/ultimate enemy that somehow can fight everyone, either in the shows or the game, in theory the undine should be totally obliterating the borg, its funny how STO made the undine in a way weaker than the borg(althrough slightly) compared to other ST games that went the opposite direction(the borg being the slightly weaker ones), also that mission with an actual assmilated undine pissed me off, the undine should be the ultimate enemy of the borg, the borg shouldn't have an advantage over them, nor it should be ever possible to assimilate an undine.
next thing we know, cryptic will make it so that the borg can assimilate the iconians of all things.
i really don't know why cryptic likes the borg so much, which are essentially space zombies.
Look at what only a sliver of the Dominion that got through to the Alpha Quadrant. This was not a major incursion by the Dominion, yet it very nearly brought down the combined alliance of the Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Star Empire. Some Dominion got into the quadrant and was quickly able to establish cloning facilities and shipyards to make Dominion warships and Jem'Hadar soldiers. This was nearly enough to win the war alone, yet they were taking repeated attempts to get reinforcements from home for a guaranteed win. Let's face it, if the fleet didn't get vaped in the Bajoran Wormhole, if that arrived then the war was won for the Dominion. Sisko and company realized that.
And there's far, far, FAR more of that in the Dominion itself.
This is why I would like the game to give the player factions a feeling of being second or third tier powers in a far, far bigger Galaxy.
We are the underdogs, no matter if we are Romulans, Feds or Klingons.
Out there is the Dominion, the Borg, the Undine, the Voth, the Iconians and their vast collection of servitor races... those are the big players.
Babylon 5 got this feeling right with the Old Ones, without making the younger races totally useles. They were just that... younger. Weaker. But their effort was not at all meaningles.
In STO, though, we are just butchering through each and everyone we encounter by frontal assault....
And I doubt it would take anything less than a fleet of bug ships ramming a tactical cube to even start making any serious damage on it, and it would quickly become the front line ship in the initial engagements against the Dominion, to counter these somewhat nuts attacks.
So lets say they can pump out 100 ships pr shipyard pr week? What do you think the first target would become once the borg assimilate even a single vorta?
And yea... 10,000's of troops... They are no good without ships.
That's a very good point here.
Apart from the navigational deflector which stops things like asteroids and other objects from doing exactly this.
The Dominion have as much chance of being assimilated as any.... they are solids.
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I say it makes a difference whether you or the thing you are impacting are surrounded by the technobabble magic that is the "warp field," or which one is moving at the speed of light.
forget nanites, build a large scale device that inhibits the changlings from altering form, then introduce nanoprobes to the surface, make sure they are a virulent kind and absorb into changling biology so the changling can not alter shape enough to dispose of the millions of nanoprobes in it's shape.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Also while the Borg could assimilate a Changeling, it is doubtful it could assimilate the Great Link or the Great Link could put up a bigger mental fight than a human.
Jem'hadar might or might not be assimilated. The only real stand out quality they have is the shroud ability and thats back to stealth again. The genetic flaw for White addiction would probably disqualify them anyway.
Vorta on the other hand I think would be prime targets for assimilation. Their engineered abilty to know predict how targets think and react could be of great use to the Collective in assimilating evasive species.
Even so, the nano-probes would still be present, and have control over the morphogenic matrix... And thats even if the probes ALLOW the changeling to turn into gass...
I can imagine moving through a liquid (as the changelings are), is a heck of a lot easier than moving through solid mass (as they sometimes assume)... so getting started on a gas...
Except warp isn't magic ... Warp is in fact a theoretical possibility, and the ship in question is in fact not moving beyond the speed of light, as so many falsely assume.
It's simply a way of bending space around the ship, while moving at sublight speeds. You can do the same with a bowl of water, and dropping a tiny piece of soap on the surface... it will move around the surface, yet never really get wet.
Love the spin on the "Arrow in the knee".