At the end of the day you can't control what comes into the queues
This is not entirely true.
You can at least control what you bring into the queues.
Yes. That's just one person.
But let's be honest, we've all seen the threads that pvp is really only a handful of players/fleets anyway. Also, the threads that everybody hates cheese stuff but uses it because the other guys are doing it. If that's true...
I don't know. I can't help but think that if more people decided to be the bigger man (or woman), we'd eventually see an improvement. Especially if the majority ended up restraining themselves and demonstrated to the new and unaligned/non-forum players that the cheese is not why they were getting beaten.
Sure, you'll be fighting non-cheese vs cheese a lot, initially. But at least you'll be trying to make a difference. And let's face facts: if 3/4 of the people in these forums join in, that's at least half the regularly active pvp players. You'll start seeing changes in the queues, guaranteed.
I know I don't use cheesy stuff or things that I know are broken. How about you?*
*A general you, not aimed at you specifically, g0h4n4.
You can at least control what you bring into the queues.
Yes. That's just one person.
But let's be honest, we've all seen the threads that pvp is really only a handful of players/fleets anyway. Also, the threads that everybody hates cheese stuff but uses it because the other guys are doing it. If that's true...
I don't know. I can't help but think that if more people decided to be the bigger man (or woman), we'd eventually see an improvement. Especially if the majority ended up restraining themselves and demonstrated to the new and unaligned/non-forum players that the cheese is not why they were getting beaten.
Sure, you'll be fighting non-cheese vs cheese a lot, initially. But at least you'll be trying to make a difference. And let's face facts: if 3/4 of the people in these forums join in, that's at least half the regularly active pvp players. You'll start seeing changes in the queues, guaranteed.
I know I don't use cheesy stuff or things that I know are broken. How about you?*
*A general you, not aimed at you specifically, g0h4n4.
I agree. In the opening thread match I described, I was on my TAC in a Mogh with Target Weapons III. So for me, I won.
You have just been 'CHEESED', welcome to our world
Its the reason I dont bother with PvP much at all nowadays. As mentioned its not the players fault it is cryptic adding layer upon layer of cheese.
They have jumped on the micro transaction band wagon and now need a constant stream of tat for the micro transactions. The players are just consuming what they have been given and very few have any ethics of gameplay hence the ruination of PvP.
The reason cryptic dont do anything about it is that the NPC dont complain about the cheese and the PvE community lap it up as it does not affect them in anyway and it generates revenue for them.
The PvP community want the problems addressed but cryptic wont as it will cost them money to correct the problems. It would not surprise me if some of these groups of PvP'ers ruining PvP with cheese were not in some way connected to cryptic and the deliberate death of PvP.
PvP is just being left in the corner to starve to death or until it feels so ignored it just shuts up and goes away !
Thanks seansamurai1. But you are too modest. You are known to me, and I am sure alot of others too.
I say unequivocally, that Star Trek Online is the best game I have ever played. Ever.
It has the potential to be that one legendary game, honestly.
The issues around which STO revolve, which have been here since around Season 4, have been the ball-and-chain of Cryptics realisation of that dream.
If someone asked me what was my wishlist for the future?
Golden Rule: Listen and engage with your customers via dev blogs, meet-and-greet blogs, etc. Listen to what players are telling you about how they are experiencing your product.
1.) Separate the influence of PvE on PvP. Be that in shutting-off the rep, and doffs then so be it.
Consider a internal process whereby a leaderboard AI can be developed, and an option for players where they want to play:
Perhaps even if it is was simple as taking the average healing/dps per player over the last 10 matches.
If they qualify they are placed in queues with more veteran players. If not, they are placed with players who share their averages.
2.) Stop producing universal consoles. Make them universal only in the fact that they can be used in any slot ONLY on the ship you purchase them with.
3.) Create more challenging and storyline based STF's for the community with less emphasis on grind, and much more emphasis on team-work.
The "reward people for time spent playing" idea is not working. People want to play to have fun and relax. They do not want to have to login in to be faced with a mountain of "work" which needs to be done to remain competitive.
So in that vein, IN ADDITION to the existing rewards, give out a +2-5 multiple-choice reputation point for playing in each match of PvP, Foundry Mission, PvE Episode etc.
That way, players are rewarded for what they want to do. Hell there is TONS of stuff I want to be doing but can't to stay "on-schedule" I would love to just hit the space lanes once in a while and know there's a bit or reputation reward at the end of it.
4.) This is a just a personal observation. But honestly, I really think that they really overdid it by given all the Romulan ships battlecloak. Some of the ships should only have standard cloak. But that ship has sailed and the Romulans will always be the go to guys if you want to play damage. Which really pees me off. For a lot of players immersion really is important. Take me. I am a through-and-through Klingon. I love the lore, the culture, the ships etc. But for the last two years its been very difficult to stay remotely competitive.
5.) Rewards. I believe that Cryptic need to change the direction of rewards. The players are saturated with "blowing-up" stuff.
What about different kinds of rewards? What about a reputation rewards that do not affect game-play but unlock specializations and slight different variations of abilities trees. Giving the player the ability to break away from the cookie-cutter.
What if as a player I could unlock a list of specialisations like "Ty'Go'Hor Guardsman" which unlocks a special doff series or perhaps a small missions series, afterwhich I earn a special rank title and perhaps a "Unique" customisable costume set?
Alot of folks could really go for instead of changing the mechanics, change the way things look.
6.) Lockboxes, doffs etc. - As profitable as these undertakings are and realizing that they will never really realistically go away. How about introducing an alternating set of rewards, of enriching the game experience and not of consequence.
How about rewards of unlocking mini-factions?
How about a rewards that unlocks a species which you can play as.
Nothing over the top, just different.
7.) Work with the Foundry authors to start getting some of their great works associated to other aspects of the game. Associate their missions to NPC's and random contacts one sees in space.
8.) Maps. Please maps. A long time ago someone I trust deeply told me that the process of creating PvP maps was extremely time consuming and challenging for a number of reasons.
There was a time for that argument. But I do not believe that it holds any water after Season 8. What Cryptic achieved with the technology behind the Dyson Sphere made me smile, not because of the content - because of its RAW potential for stuff I do like. You know what I'm talking about!! (cue beaming Eddie Murphy Come to Papa grin!)
Thats it really. LOL
A few years of work. But my Nirvana in STO, except of course when I stumble upon one of those particular feisty little Epochs which gets my blood pumping.
Thanks for the sentiments.
For me, probably the wrong reasons anyone knows me.
I'm a bad loser.
More to the point, I don't mind losing to someone with genuinely more skill, I don't like losing to fads and skill less cheese.
Tbh, cryptic really really really need to address the spam in this game, frankly the game engine/graphics engine is not capable of running all the c**p.
They can't tell me that this game is more graphics intensive than say battlefield 4 on ultra settings, or ARMA3 on ultra settings, both of those run at 60+ FPS comfortably on my comp at ultra settings, even ran it on a 100hz 32inch 1080p HD TV in HD (hdmi ports). Yet a 4+ year old game with an old engine under the hood is apparently more intensive?
Na, just really badly optimised.
One might even say, it was the story of the Bajoran Plothole.
Will a random mish-mash of Internet reviewers need to go to it on a house flying in space, spoofing many many different sci-fi movies and shows along the way?
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Webdeath, I've known you for a very long time. Been a few moons indeed.
I've only one fear really. While I am waiting for PvP to get some attention, it may get to the point where whatever attention it is given, no longer matters.
The only analogy I can think of is this.
~ Dinner for PvP ~
"Imagine PvP as an awesome dinner you arrange for you best friends. It's your first time cooking so you want to impress upon them you culinary sophisti-Ka-tion and grace.
Strutting around the kitchen like Jamie Oliver, you feel that sweet moment upon you of, "Yes! This is my castle.. I'm the man.." sweep over you. Shoulders out you slice carrots as though you born to the task, broad swathing stokes like they do in Kill Bill... you beam proudly at you wife.
"See nothing to worry about. Easy peasy!" Your wife cautions you not to overdo things, all the while telling you to go easy on the sauce. Yet you proceed with wild abandon sparing nothing... Stuffing that chicken like you were Muhammad Ali after a knockdown.
Fast forward to the big night. Your guests arrive, and as they start digging in you notice that, lets just call him Bruce, is somewhat reserved in his appetite. More so than usual...
Why at one point, you're absolutely convinced that Sharon was moulding her mashed-butternut to hide something!! Not to hurt your feelings, your wife affectionately smiles, "Yuuuuummmmy". Is that a .... She's chewing on a carrot stick which was not even on the menu!
Stay with me folks... This is drk-style rabble ... {this is que pvp fix analogy-thingy}
So, after a rather migraine-inducing, sidetracked, roller-coaster of a meal with far too many librations of red wine to force that admittedly charred ruin of a chicken {or turkey... its too far gone to tell or matter anymore.} down, and to avoid any suffering of the fact that the chicken was still smoking on one side, its twitching leg with feathers protruding from its a$$ ... which funnily enough, from this angle... reminds you of Vegas....., you pipe-up .... SO! Who's for some yummy desert!"
To which your dear friends, God rest their souls all shout in unison, "God NOOOOOO! Please!!!! You've done enough already!!"
I read that analogy and I agree with it, but in a different way..
With Cryptic, STO is the big Thanksgiving dinner. They have been preparing it for Years now.. They have the Turkey.. But many feel it is not big enough or have enough meat for the consumers. They have the sides, but perhaps not filling enough. And then there is the desert.. PVP.. That is just a single slice of pumpkin pie... One that was originally prepared with care.. but now it is 4 years old.. stored in a broken fridge.. and we're expected to try to not only fight over it, but want to consume that last slice after these 4 years..
I don't know about you.. but now I'm Hungry.. I've been hungry for a long time.. I can only hope that Cryptic can eventually serve us something worth enjoying.. other wise a different cook may come along and do better.. and then what will cryptic have? A bunch of dishes to clean...
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
You can at least control what you bring into the queues.
Yes. That's just one person.
But let's be honest, we've all seen the threads that pvp is really only a handful of players/fleets anyway. Also, the threads that everybody hates cheese stuff but uses it because the other guys are doing it. If that's true...
I don't know. I can't help but think that if more people decided to be the bigger man (or woman), we'd eventually see an improvement. Especially if the majority ended up restraining themselves and demonstrated to the new and unaligned/non-forum players that the cheese is not why they were getting beaten.
Sure, you'll be fighting non-cheese vs cheese a lot, initially. But at least you'll be trying to make a difference. And let's face facts: if 3/4 of the people in these forums join in, that's at least half the regularly active pvp players. You'll start seeing changes in the queues, guaranteed.
I know I don't use cheesy stuff or things that I know are broken. How about you?*
*A general you, not aimed at you specifically, g0h4n4.
Depends what your definition of Cheese is though, some people consider decloaking and alpha as cheese for example
But I generally don't do offsensive cheese like SIC, SS with doffs, GPG, TIF, Orion interceptors/Yellowstones.
However in a premade match with no rules laid out beforehand, out, it's all out nucleur
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
You can at least control what you bring into the queues.
Yes. That's just one person.
But let's be honest, we've all seen the threads that pvp is really only a handful of players/fleets anyway. Also, the threads that everybody hates cheese stuff but uses it because the other guys are doing it. If that's true...
I don't know. I can't help but think that if more people decided to be the bigger man (or woman), we'd eventually see an improvement. Especially if the majority ended up restraining themselves and demonstrated to the new and unaligned/non-forum players that the cheese is not why they were getting beaten.
Sure, you'll be fighting non-cheese vs cheese a lot, initially. But at least you'll be trying to make a difference. And let's face facts: if 3/4 of the people in these forums join in, that's at least half the regularly active pvp players. You'll start seeing changes in the queues, guaranteed.
I know I don't use cheesy stuff or things that I know are broken. How about you?*
*A general you, not aimed at you specifically, g0h4n4.
The problem is if you don't run cheese, your just a drop in the ocean. There are too many people with the kind of attitidude of the following:
'Who are you to tell me what I can or cannot you A***Hole'
or 'I paid RL/ Lobi/EC for these consoles so STFU and die'
See the problem, they have no honour and their right who am I to tell them what to bring into queues, they won't listen and they don't care, they just want to win, not how they do it.
Kind of sums up their mental/physical age too
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I'll start by saying I have only been really into PvP'ing for about a year and a half. Prior to that our fleet would run an internal PvP night where we would all get together and bring whatever build we wanted and have fun blowing the hell out of each other. That's where I got my start with PvP....where I got hooked on it.
We also had (and still have) a premade team that we would queue up in the public queues with on a different night from the fleet night. We were getting really good last winter into the beginning of this year. When summer came around, our player base in the fleet dropped way off due to summer holidays and what not. Some of us still PvP'ed together, but it was just for fun and normally only two or three of us teaming and joining the queues. At that time, we just didn't notice how the metagame had been changing.
When October rolled around and our members started showing back up, we started up our Premade team again. After the first couple of weeks where we were the subject of 0-15 cheese stompings, a couple of our premade players just decided they weren't going to PvP anymore and left STO for different games. The couple of us that were left who really enjoyed PvP decided to try and solve the "Riddle of the Public Queues" that PvP had become.
At first, we tried to play the way we always had: 1 Engineer Healer, 1 Sci buffer/debuffer, 1 Sci healer/debuffer, and 2x Tacs. Needless to say, that formula really doesn't work anymore, so we started to adapt our tactics to fit what was being thrown at us in the queues. Our team morphed from that to what we ran last night. We still have the Engineer healer (Props to our guy Brody...Best pure healer/Tank I've encountered.... And he's and Engineer), one sci that buffs and heals, one tac in an avenger (yes, spamming faw), another sci flying a cloaking T'Varo torp/cannon build, and myself a Sci healer with some crowd control.
I won't lie, we all have cheese on our builds. I run advanced danubes and the "black poo" console as well as FAW and Grav Wells. We have three of the "poo" consoles, three grav wells, three subnucs, three FAW's and we will use them all at the same time on the same target. Is that cheese? Hell yes it is and we do rather well in the public queues now...Not great, but well...
All that being said, though, we have adopted the strategy of only using the real cheesiest of the cheese stuff when it has been used on us....The other Golden Rule: Do unto others as they have done unto you. We know the players names to watch out for and when we see them on the other side, it's all cheese away. If we don't recognize the names, we will not use the cheese until it has been used on us. This isn't a perfect solution, but it works for us, we do still have fun PvP'ing.
Even when the match is a cheese-fest, we've still had some very fun and challenging matches 13-15 or 15-12 or 15-14. We've also encountered a few pugs and premades that don't use cheese and those matches are usually the most fun....Just tactics and Pew Pew
I would like to include in closing, that I do wish Cryptic would overhaul PvP. Make it about the skill of the Captains and not about the equipment on their boats. But until (if) they do that, we'll keep adapting because we enjoy it.
I guess that is the actual question of this thread (for me, anyway): Do you still enjoy PvP'ing enough to adapt to the newest equipment/tactics? At least for me, the answer is yes. It's no fun getting locked down, subnuc'ed and cheesed until your power tray is all gray. But it is fun when your team pulls together and saves the player that is locked down like that. As a healer, that is the most fun to me
I'll start by saying I have only been really into PvP'ing for about a year and a half. Prior to that our fleet would run an internal PvP night where we would all get together and bring whatever build we wanted and have fun blowing the hell out of each other. That's where I got my start with PvP....where I got hooked on it.
We also had (and still have) a premade team that we would queue up in the public queues with on a different night from the fleet night. We were getting really good last winter into the beginning of this year. When summer came around, our player base in the fleet dropped way off due to summer holidays and what not. Some of us still PvP'ed together, but it was just for fun and normally only two or three of us teaming and joining the queues. At that time, we just didn't notice how the metagame had been changing.
When October rolled around and our members started showing back up, we started up our Premade team again. After the first couple of weeks where we were the subject of 0-15 cheese stompings, a couple of our premade players just decided they weren't going to PvP anymore and left STO for different games. The couple of us that were left who really enjoyed PvP decided to try and solve the "Riddle of the Public Queues" that PvP had become.
At first, we tried to play the way we always had: 1 Engineer Healer, 1 Sci buffer/debuffer, 1 Sci healer/debuffer, and 2x Tacs. Needless to say, that formula really doesn't work anymore, so we started to adapt our tactics to fit what was being thrown at us in the queues. Our team morphed from that to what we ran last night. We still have the Engineer healer (Props to our guy Brody...Best pure healer/Tank I've encountered.... And he's and Engineer), one sci that buffs and heals, one tac in an avenger (yes, spamming faw), another sci flying a cloaking T'Varo torp/cannon build, and myself a Sci healer with some crowd control.
I won't lie, we all have cheese on our builds. I run advanced danubes and the "black poo" console as well as FAW and Grav Wells. We have three of the "poo" consoles, three grav wells, three subnucs, three FAW's and we will use them all at the same time on the same target. Is that cheese? Hell yes it is and we do rather well in the public queues now...Not great, but well...
All that being said, though, we have adopted the strategy of only using the real cheesiest of the cheese stuff when it has been used on us....The other Golden Rule: Do unto others as they have done unto you. We know the players names to watch out for and when we see them on the other side, it's all cheese away. If we don't recognize the names, we will not use the cheese until it has been used on us. This isn't a perfect solution, but it works for us, we do still have fun PvP'ing.
Even when the match is a cheese-fest, we've still had some very fun and challenging matches 13-15 or 15-12 or 15-14. We've also encountered a few pugs and premades that don't use cheese and those matches are usually the most fun....Just tactics and Pew Pew
I would like to include in closing, that I do wish Cryptic would overhaul PvP. Make it about the skill of the Captains and not about the equipment on their boats. But until (if) they do that, we'll keep adapting because we enjoy it.
I guess that is the actual question of this thread (for me, anyway): Do you still enjoy PvP'ing enough to adapt to the newest equipment/tactics? At least for me, the answer is yes. It's no fun getting locked down, subnuc'ed and cheesed until your power tray is all gray. But it is fun when your team pulls together and saves the player that is locked down like that. As a healer, that is the most fun to me
Sorry for the ramble...
To be honest fair play as the public queues have 'no rules' but not using cheese until it is used on you is a good principle to adapt but sadly few and far between.
To those who use Cheese on me in pugs, you won't get any QQ from me, but you certainly won't get any respect either and will often be my preferred target
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I think one of the problems is also the paid for aspect of it too.
So you say you cany bring GPG because it's paid for, what about your paid for bug ship?
You say you can't use the TIF bonus set power, what about paid for traits?
You can't use certain elite pets but what about that you have either 6 doff slots or an extra 8 boffs you can switch out to at any time?
The question always is about banning items but we never think about all the other paid for content that is just as hard and gives just as much of an advantage in games.
The problem is multifaceted but people do have a point, if you buy something and can't use it then it's at best annoying and at worst going to cheese you off and prevent you buying again. There won't be a simple solution and I feel the solution that is needed is probably not the one anyone here will want.
Oh, I won't try to claim that by not using any cheese stuff myself I prevent others from doing so. And I definitely agree that most people atm won't hesitate to use that stuff on me, because they can and they paid for it. And because they can and it'll help them win.
I just know that I think of that stuff as a crutch and a downer on my enjoyment of pvp, and consequently do not use it. And sure, I get whacked with it and die. And then get whacked again or get even. But those matches where I'm fighting an all-out cheese team with a clean pug team and we beat them, they are very satisfying, on multiple levels. And not just because of the surprised and confused responses you sometimes get. Even just escaping a cheese stack and blowing up the one that dumped it on you feels really good. Almost as good as a good clean fight. Almost.
And hey, I know any kind of player initiative isn't going to make a whole lot of difference. But little bits of difference are a start. And it beats waiting for Cryptic to implement sweeping changes to the way PvP in this game is set up, even assuming they'd ever be inclined to tackle this issue.
Slightly off topic: Personally, I'd favour a system along the lines of GW1 (and presumably GW2, though I haven't played that), where for PvP characters all gear was unlocked, you started at max level and OP PvE skills were modified for PvP use (PvE characters could enter too, just had their skills modified). In higher tier PvP there, you heard comments like "oh, your team needs X? I'm currently Y, let me delete this character and reroll, back in 3 minutes and we're good to go". That sort of setup favours skill over grinding, gear and p2w. I liked that. A lot.
There is a simple reason why Cryptic won't unify the queues: If they did, they'd have to do what they did after the currency unification - add many more game modes until it is a total mess again. And since they won't add more game modes...
We'd actually have fewer queues, room for growth within those queues, tentatively avoid some of the problems moaned about constantly because of the queues...
There is a simple reason why Cryptic won't unify the queues: If they did, they'd have to do what they did after the currency unification - add many more game modes until it is a total mess again. And since they won't add more game modes...
Yeah, couldn't possibly ask cryptic/pew to add decent content, to help make the game have a decent PvP.
That's surely not why they get paid or receive money from paying customers.
RvB the queues, then split the queues based on an internal scoring mechanic...
Which would certainly help but it doesn't really address the issue of cheese as we all call it. What I was just trying to highlight is the vast differences between different people in terms of what paid for content they had and indeed some of the more insidious parts we don't think about.
I mean some PvPers must have pretty full doff rosters now without the roster upgrade.
I suppose if it took into account what upgrades a character had and consoles etc then maybe but that is one balancing nightmare...might as well just try and balance the whole game if doing that.
Which would certainly help but it doesn't really address the issue of cheese as we all call it. What I was just trying to highlight is the vast differences between different people in terms of what paid for content they had and indeed some of the more insidious parts we don't think about.
I mean some PvPers must have pretty full doff rosters now without the roster upgrade.
I suppose if it took into account what upgrades a character had and consoles etc then maybe but that is one balancing nightmare...might as well just try and balance the whole game if doing that.
I think TD matches show quite nicely, it just has to be good enough perfection isn't feasible.
Comments
This is not entirely true.
You can at least control what you bring into the queues.
Yes. That's just one person.
But let's be honest, we've all seen the threads that pvp is really only a handful of players/fleets anyway. Also, the threads that everybody hates cheese stuff but uses it because the other guys are doing it. If that's true...
I don't know. I can't help but think that if more people decided to be the bigger man (or woman), we'd eventually see an improvement. Especially if the majority ended up restraining themselves and demonstrated to the new and unaligned/non-forum players that the cheese is not why they were getting beaten.
Sure, you'll be fighting non-cheese vs cheese a lot, initially. But at least you'll be trying to make a difference. And let's face facts: if 3/4 of the people in these forums join in, that's at least half the regularly active pvp players. You'll start seeing changes in the queues, guaranteed.
I know I don't use cheesy stuff or things that I know are broken. How about you?*
*A general you, not aimed at you specifically, g0h4n4.
I agree. In the opening thread match I described, I was on my TAC in a Mogh with Target Weapons III. So for me, I won.
Its the reason I dont bother with PvP much at all nowadays. As mentioned its not the players fault it is cryptic adding layer upon layer of cheese.
They have jumped on the micro transaction band wagon and now need a constant stream of tat for the micro transactions. The players are just consuming what they have been given and very few have any ethics of gameplay hence the ruination of PvP.
The reason cryptic dont do anything about it is that the NPC dont complain about the cheese and the PvE community lap it up as it does not affect them in anyway and it generates revenue for them.
The PvP community want the problems addressed but cryptic wont as it will cost them money to correct the problems. It would not surprise me if some of these groups of PvP'ers ruining PvP with cheese were not in some way connected to cryptic and the deliberate death of PvP.
PvP is just being left in the corner to starve to death or until it feels so ignored it just shuts up and goes away !
Thanks for the sentiments.
For me, probably the wrong reasons anyone knows me.
I'm a bad loser.
More to the point, I don't mind losing to someone with genuinely more skill, I don't like losing to fads and skill less cheese.
Tbh, cryptic really really really need to address the spam in this game, frankly the game engine/graphics engine is not capable of running all the c**p.
They can't tell me that this game is more graphics intensive than say battlefield 4 on ultra settings, or ARMA3 on ultra settings, both of those run at 60+ FPS comfortably on my comp at ultra settings, even ran it on a 100hz 32inch 1080p HD TV in HD (hdmi ports). Yet a 4+ year old game with an old engine under the hood is apparently more intensive?
Na, just really badly optimised.
Will a random mish-mash of Internet reviewers need to go to it on a house flying in space, spoofing many many different sci-fi movies and shows along the way?
I read that analogy and I agree with it, but in a different way..
With Cryptic, STO is the big Thanksgiving dinner. They have been preparing it for Years now.. They have the Turkey.. But many feel it is not big enough or have enough meat for the consumers. They have the sides, but perhaps not filling enough. And then there is the desert.. PVP.. That is just a single slice of pumpkin pie... One that was originally prepared with care.. but now it is 4 years old.. stored in a broken fridge.. and we're expected to try to not only fight over it, but want to consume that last slice after these 4 years..
I don't know about you.. but now I'm Hungry.. I've been hungry for a long time.. I can only hope that Cryptic can eventually serve us something worth enjoying.. other wise a different cook may come along and do better.. and then what will cryptic have? A bunch of dishes to clean...
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Depends what your definition of Cheese is though, some people consider decloaking and alpha as cheese for example
But I generally don't do offsensive cheese like SIC, SS with doffs, GPG, TIF, Orion interceptors/Yellowstones.
However in a premade match with no rules laid out beforehand, out, it's all out nucleur
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
The problem is if you don't run cheese, your just a drop in the ocean. There are too many people with the kind of attitidude of the following:
'Who are you to tell me what I can or cannot you A***Hole'
or 'I paid RL/ Lobi/EC for these consoles so STFU and die'
See the problem, they have no honour and their right who am I to tell them what to bring into queues, they won't listen and they don't care, they just want to win, not how they do it.
Kind of sums up their mental/physical age too
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
We also had (and still have) a premade team that we would queue up in the public queues with on a different night from the fleet night. We were getting really good last winter into the beginning of this year. When summer came around, our player base in the fleet dropped way off due to summer holidays and what not. Some of us still PvP'ed together, but it was just for fun and normally only two or three of us teaming and joining the queues. At that time, we just didn't notice how the metagame had been changing.
When October rolled around and our members started showing back up, we started up our Premade team again. After the first couple of weeks where we were the subject of 0-15 cheese stompings, a couple of our premade players just decided they weren't going to PvP anymore and left STO for different games. The couple of us that were left who really enjoyed PvP decided to try and solve the "Riddle of the Public Queues" that PvP had become.
At first, we tried to play the way we always had: 1 Engineer Healer, 1 Sci buffer/debuffer, 1 Sci healer/debuffer, and 2x Tacs. Needless to say, that formula really doesn't work anymore, so we started to adapt our tactics to fit what was being thrown at us in the queues. Our team morphed from that to what we ran last night. We still have the Engineer healer (Props to our guy Brody...Best pure healer/Tank I've encountered.... And he's and Engineer), one sci that buffs and heals, one tac in an avenger (yes, spamming faw), another sci flying a cloaking T'Varo torp/cannon build, and myself a Sci healer with some crowd control.
I won't lie, we all have cheese on our builds. I run advanced danubes and the "black poo" console as well as FAW and Grav Wells. We have three of the "poo" consoles, three grav wells, three subnucs, three FAW's and we will use them all at the same time on the same target. Is that cheese? Hell yes it is and we do rather well in the public queues now...Not great, but well...
All that being said, though, we have adopted the strategy of only using the real cheesiest of the cheese stuff when it has been used on us....The other Golden Rule: Do unto others as they have done unto you. We know the players names to watch out for and when we see them on the other side, it's all cheese away. If we don't recognize the names, we will not use the cheese until it has been used on us. This isn't a perfect solution, but it works for us, we do still have fun PvP'ing.
Even when the match is a cheese-fest, we've still had some very fun and challenging matches 13-15 or 15-12 or 15-14. We've also encountered a few pugs and premades that don't use cheese and those matches are usually the most fun....Just tactics and Pew Pew
I would like to include in closing, that I do wish Cryptic would overhaul PvP. Make it about the skill of the Captains and not about the equipment on their boats. But until (if) they do that, we'll keep adapting because we enjoy it.
I guess that is the actual question of this thread (for me, anyway): Do you still enjoy PvP'ing enough to adapt to the newest equipment/tactics? At least for me, the answer is yes. It's no fun getting locked down, subnuc'ed and cheesed until your power tray is all gray. But it is fun when your team pulls together and saves the player that is locked down like that. As a healer, that is the most fun to me
Sorry for the ramble...
Co-Founder of TOS Veterans and TOS Qan Mang
To be honest fair play as the public queues have 'no rules' but not using cheese until it is used on you is a good principle to adapt but sadly few and far between.
To those who use Cheese on me in pugs, you won't get any QQ from me, but you certainly won't get any respect either and will often be my preferred target
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
So you say you cany bring GPG because it's paid for, what about your paid for bug ship?
You say you can't use the TIF bonus set power, what about paid for traits?
You can't use certain elite pets but what about that you have either 6 doff slots or an extra 8 boffs you can switch out to at any time?
The question always is about banning items but we never think about all the other paid for content that is just as hard and gives just as much of an advantage in games.
The problem is multifaceted but people do have a point, if you buy something and can't use it then it's at best annoying and at worst going to cheese you off and prevent you buying again. There won't be a simple solution and I feel the solution that is needed is probably not the one anyone here will want.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I just know that I think of that stuff as a crutch and a downer on my enjoyment of pvp, and consequently do not use it. And sure, I get whacked with it and die. And then get whacked again or get even. But those matches where I'm fighting an all-out cheese team with a clean pug team and we beat them, they are very satisfying, on multiple levels. And not just because of the surprised and confused responses you sometimes get. Even just escaping a cheese stack and blowing up the one that dumped it on you feels really good. Almost as good as a good clean fight. Almost.
And hey, I know any kind of player initiative isn't going to make a whole lot of difference. But little bits of difference are a start. And it beats waiting for Cryptic to implement sweeping changes to the way PvP in this game is set up, even assuming they'd ever be inclined to tackle this issue.
Slightly off topic: Personally, I'd favour a system along the lines of GW1 (and presumably GW2, though I haven't played that), where for PvP characters all gear was unlocked, you started at max level and OP PvE skills were modified for PvP use (PvE characters could enter too, just had their skills modified). In higher tier PvP there, you heard comments like "oh, your team needs X? I'm currently Y, let me delete this character and reroll, back in 3 minutes and we're good to go". That sort of setup favours skill over grinding, gear and p2w. I liked that. A lot.
Assuming, of course, that there will be enough people to split any queues. I mean, 3/4 of the day no queue will pop at all, as it stands.
It simply makes too much sense, mah brain hurts!
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Yeah, couldn't possibly ask cryptic/pew to add decent content, to help make the game have a decent PvP.
That's surely not why they get paid or receive money from paying customers.
Which would certainly help but it doesn't really address the issue of cheese as we all call it. What I was just trying to highlight is the vast differences between different people in terms of what paid for content they had and indeed some of the more insidious parts we don't think about.
I mean some PvPers must have pretty full doff rosters now without the roster upgrade.
I suppose if it took into account what upgrades a character had and consoles etc then maybe but that is one balancing nightmare...might as well just try and balance the whole game if doing that.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I think TD matches show quite nicely, it just has to be good enough perfection isn't feasible.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.