weapons dont fire from the pivot point though, they fire from points on the model. at point blank range, this seems to mater. if your target was right under your qin, and you had DCs that fired from the nose, would they fire backward to hit that person your on top of because they would be in the pivot point's fireing arc still?
The weapons appear to fire from hardpoints, it's purely visual. The calculations for firing arc are based on the pivot point.
To answer your question, yes. You can see this more easily on large ships, and even easier on wide ships. It's possible to have an enemy ship directly in front of a weapon hard point, yet out of your firing arc.
The weapons appear to fire from hardpoints, it's purely visual. The calculations for firing arc are based on the pivot point.
To answer your question, yes. You can see this more easily on large ships, and even easier on wide ships. It's possible to have an enemy ship directly in front of a weapon hard point, yet out of your firing arc.
Thanks for all this explaining. Now I know why I was always happy with my Qin. I'm not abnormal after all!
Thanks for all this explaining. Now I know why I was always happy with my Qin. I'm not abnormal after all!
Likewise, just kitted out a Mirror Qin to see what everyone was complaining about, and so far the thing works identical to a Patrol Escort, no turning problems at all. The power of rumor I suppose.
Thanks for all this explaining. Now I know why I was always happy with my Qin. I'm not abnormal after all!
I wouldn't go that far. :P
But yes, the explanation from JamJamz was definitely appreciated...still though...
Dismissing the visual aspects, doesn't quite work - when - it's a visual thing for players, eh? It's the reference point. We're not flying red dots with little compass points on them.
I think different folks will have different comfort levels with some of the locations of those points. Like the Qin, there's a bunch that hate it - but for me, it feels right - because it's a bottom heavy ship...so it's something that the brain makes that connection, and it just pans out fine.
As somebody mentioned the Ambassador, yep - that's a ship that I just can't get used to flying. To me, it appears either as a forward heavy or top heavy ship - but with the pivot point so far back, the feeling of mass moving is off - my wee brain says it can't move like that - as it does...and...yeah...meh.
The one that's been the most cumbersome for me, mind you - is actually the aft 90 arc on a Chel Grett. Trying to fire an aft torp from one. Rotating the ship, camera, all over the place - wondering how I can't find that 90 arc to get the torp to fire. The fore 90, no worries - wham bam kaboom...the aft 90...it's hiding from me, man - it's hiding!
There is no advantage. Weapon hard points make no difference when it comes to pointing at your targets. In the example, if a small enemy ship was between the pivot point, and the hull of the ship, you would not be able to fire at it. But, that's not a problem, because every player ship's pivot point is encased within the collision capsule that surrounds the ship.
It's not just a matter of a small target between the pivot and the ship body. The pivot of the shape, even if the pivot point is internal, still comes into play.
By all appearances the pivot on the mirror qin is almost at the back end of the ship. Forward DHC weapons have 45 degrees of fire. Well... 45 degrees from where? 45 degrees starting at the back of the ship is a hell of a lot wider arc of fire than 45 degrees from the visual hardpoints.
And visual changes in such a model Do affect the outcome in a way you're not considering: as a player I'm using the logical assumption that weapons shoot out the front. It's how every game... EVER... works in this case. It's how common sense, and physics, and science, dictates such a thing would and should work. I will fly my ship to position it so that such a thing is possible. Now if the visual cues are so screwed up in comparison to the actual game engine capabilities, this ship will not do what players intend, it will not react properly nor handle properly. Visual cues in a video game are vital to perfectly balance with the "physics" of the game. The motion has to match the animation of the motion.
It's still a matter of angular momentum, but since you mentioned how the weapons work it's become even more than that.
well, the qin has several other issues, if its not the pivot point that makes it a pain to use, its a number of other things.
-1 turn rate then average
-slightly better hull, basically average these days, for less shields is a really poor trade
-HUGE, like as long as a vorcha, gets in the way of dogfighting
-lacks 5 tac consoles like the fleet defient got
-to many tac stations. but post doffs getting introduced, its not to bad now.
i think the fleet version should get a 5/2 weapons setup, make that the only change and you will have a ship worth the down sides. or a battle cloak!
Question related to size...
Are area weapons affected by the size of your ship? Meaning, if a ship explodes nearby, does the size of your ship affect whether the warp core breach hits you or not?
Think of an explosion as an expanding bubble spreading outward from a center point. Now think of your ship as a share near that bubble.... After a certain point you don't take damage. So the larger your ship, the more "bits" that may protrude into the damage zone.
The answer is yes. The real question is: does the SURFACE AREA of the ship that interacts with the explosion bubble increase the damage you take by several factors, or do you just "take X damage" regardless of if your torso or your pinky toe are inside the damage zone.
The weapons appear to fire from hardpoints, it's purely visual. The calculations for firing arc are based on the pivot point.
The size of the ship still affects it, because it affects the pilot who has to turn it. Maybe if the reticle showed when target was in-arc then the pilot could adapt better.
There is no advantage. Weapon hard points make no difference when it comes to pointing at your targets. In the example, if a small enemy ship was between the pivot point, and the hull of the ship, you would not be able to fire at it. But, that's not a problem, because every player ship's pivot point is encased within the collision capsule that surrounds the ship.
Riddle me this then ... why is that my forward weapons won't fire on my scimitar if I am attacking a small target and it is less than 1KM away. If I back out to just beyond 1KM they start firing with 0 difference in angle.
Pivot does have an effect in these scenariors. It doesn't have an effect if you are firing at something 5KM away.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
The size of the ship still affects it, because it affects the pilot who has to turn it. Maybe if the reticle showed when target was in-arc then the pilot could adapt better.
This is something that could be helpful in general - if we had an arc overlay we could trigger - rather than having to sit there hovering over a weapon to see it, eh?
Heh, should mention - did get caught up in the other discussion - that I don't believe the Mogh to be too big, and I have to say it is an awesome/brutal looking ship. Excellent job, imho.
and your crazy if you prefer 50 inertia over 35 on this ship, that sliding helps so much with dhc use, it will be much harder to use DHCs effectively on the mogh then a negvar.
Uh what? Inertia is a very powerful stat in pvp where everything goes fast. You cant use EPtE if you cant stop your ship.
if your target was right under your qin, and you had DCs that fired from the nose, would they fire backward to hit that person your on top of because they would be in the pivot point's fireing arc still?
I've definitely seen my ship's forward weapons fire "backwards", through my ship's hull, to hit targets that I was really close to, and possibly above or below of.
Uh what? Inertia is a very powerful stat in pvp where everything goes fast. You cant use EPtE if you cant stop your ship.
And about the fleet mogh, it's a great ship.
you dont want to stop, you want to slide! let my explain a bit about a low inertia number. you turn with your TRIBBLE mainly, allowing you to orbit your target as you slide around them. this seems to wip your nose around easier too, so you can keep cannons pointed beyond what your turn rate should grant you. use EPtE on these DHC cruisers, thats needed to use the low inertia score to your advantage. the mogh and avenger, with their 50 inertia, lack this for the most part. its SIGNIFICANTLY harder to use DHCs on them as a result, it cant snap that nose around and orbit their target, maneuvering in a way the escort your tangling with cant match. in exchange for this handicap, the mogh and avenger have their 5 forward weapons though, so making it harder to use front biased weapons goes a long way to ballance them, and makes it so all these other battlecruiser choices arent entirely invalid.
high inertia is a better match on ships that can have a 50+ turn rate, and an impulse mod of .2 or beter
The weapons appear to fire from hardpoints, it's purely visual. The calculations for firing arc are based on the pivot point.
To answer your question, yes. You can see this more easily on large ships, and even easier on wide ships. It's possible to have an enemy ship directly in front of a weapon hard point, yet out of your firing arc.
Are firing range to target and firing range from target calculated in the same manner? I've noticed that some of my ships seem to be able to be shot at from a HUD range of around 10.3km, which remains outside of my own weapons range, but my nose seems to stick out like Cyrano de Bergerac. Is this because the firing range is determined by pivot point and the impact range is based on the ship model?
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
The weapons appear to fire from hardpoints, it's purely visual. The calculations for firing arc are based on the pivot point.
To answer your question, yes. You can see this more easily on large ships, and even easier on wide ships. It's possible to have an enemy ship directly in front of a weapon hard point, yet out of your firing arc.
Fleet Mogai with a Valdor skin, one of the widest, and I can say I can very easily see that my firing has nothing to do with the visual location of my hardpoints.
Riddle me this then ... why is that my forward weapons won't fire on my scimitar if I am attacking a small target and it is less than 1KM away. If I back out to just beyond 1KM they start firing with 0 difference in angle.
Pivot does have an effect in these scenariors. It doesn't have an effect if you are firing at something 5KM away.
Because your ship is much wider than the firing arc, and the other ship is outside it until you back up making the firing zone wider.
you dont want to stop, you want to slide! let my explain a bit about a low inertia number. you turn with your TRIBBLE mainly, allowing you to orbit your target as you slide around them. this seems to wip your nose around easier too, so you can keep cannons pointed beyond what your turn rate should grant you. use EPtE on these DHC cruisers, thats needed to use the low inertia score to your advantage. the mogh and avenger, with their 50 inertia, lack this for the most part. its SIGNIFICANTLY harder to use DHCs on them as a result, it cant snap that nose around and orbit their target, maneuvering in a way the escort your tangling with cant match. in exchange for this handicap, the mogh and avenger have their 5 forward weapons though, so making it harder to use front biased weapons goes a long way to ballance them, and makes it so all these other battlecruiser choices arent entirely invalid.
high inertia is a better match on ships that can have a 50+ turn rate, and an impulse mod of .2 or beter
That's interesting, but imo it's easier to just stop and punch the enemy using a tractor beam rather than doing complex maneuvers to keep him inside your firing arc.
But at least it makes battlecruisers a little more unique.
I know the discussion has moved beyond this, but the Mogh isn't too big. It's the AVENGER that is TOO SMALL!
Seriously, I'm sure you folks have seen a few here and there, parked in orbit or whatever. It's not that much bigger than the destroyer line! It's about twice as "tall" as a flat ship like the Mobius, but the Chimera is actually longer! I know that ships in STO aren't to scale, but really, the Avenger should've been maybe 20% bigger. Maybe a mite smaller than an Assault Cruiser, but at least larger than the Mobius and Chimera.
Then again, the Avenger has "just" 700 crew, probably cramped in Defiant-style living conditions, and the Mogh has 2000 comfortable, battle-ready warriors.
The Mogh is a Neg'Var refit (more or less) so similar dimensions are expected.
The Avenger is only about 400 metres long about the same size as the Chimera and unless they change the windows it clearly has a saucer that is 2 decks high at the rim (about 5 in total).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Alrioght, if the Qin's problem is 'purely visual'. . .then fix the visuals. Last time I bothered to use a Qin in PvP, I felt like I was flying a dead stick or a brick compared to the Federation escorts arrayed against me. Maybe I'm just not cut out for how the Qin flies. . .but a fix would be appreciated. You'd probably see more people buying the Fleet Qin if you fixed whatever the problem is and then made a point of letting everyone know.
Honestly, the Mogh isn't too big, the Avenger is too small. The thing is the same size as an Armitage, maybe a little smaller. That doesn't really say "Battlecruiser" to me. I vastly prefer pretty much everything about the Mogh, they're both good ships but the Mogh has a better console and looks cooler. Easily the best looking Cryptic original Klingon ship.
From my experience for the most part a lot of KDF ships more so the more experience you have piloting it the better you will be with it. Like a lot of fed ships and lockbox ships its basically a clashing of stats. Best way to explain it is take an expert bop pilot and try to escape from them and you will learn the true definition of impossible. The mogh isn't too big its just fine imo its no where near as large as a negh'var by any means.
The Mogh sort of has to be big to justify its crappy turn rate.
Yes, you say, it's got a 9 turn. That's a good turn!
But every other KDF not-Bortasqu has 10+. This thing thus has to be Neghvar-sized clunky to justify it's TRIBBLE-by-KDF-standards turn. Plus, there had to be SOME kind of penalty in exchange for the integral cloak, and that's in the ship being a huge target and being saddled with extra crew.
What, you say? More crew is good? Hogwash. Consider. Every time you are shot, all of your crew are killed. Now, the bonus you get for having crew depends on how many of them, as a percentage, are alive. If you have 50 crew, they all die, and then 50 of them resurrect themselves, you have 100% crew. If you have 2000 crew, they all die, and 50 resurrect themselves, you have 0.25% crew. Not An Advantage.
Eh, I think the size is fine. Considering it houses 2000 crew, I imagine the living quarters must be fairly cramped for a Klingon ship. It behaves as a midway between a Vorcha and a Neghvar and sizes between them. It's also roughly the same size as the Peghqu and functions in a similar role(Destroyer).
Personally, I think the Avenger should have been officially classed as a Destroyer instead of a battlecruiser, because that's what it is - both in size and function. (Obviously, the issue there is that Destroyers appear to be a subset of escorts and not traditionally privy to cruiser commands.)
Comments
The weapons appear to fire from hardpoints, it's purely visual. The calculations for firing arc are based on the pivot point.
To answer your question, yes. You can see this more easily on large ships, and even easier on wide ships. It's possible to have an enemy ship directly in front of a weapon hard point, yet out of your firing arc.
Twitter! STO_JamJamz
Thanks for all this explaining. Now I know why I was always happy with my Qin. I'm not abnormal after all!
Likewise, just kitted out a Mirror Qin to see what everyone was complaining about, and so far the thing works identical to a Patrol Escort, no turning problems at all. The power of rumor I suppose.
I wouldn't go that far. :P
But yes, the explanation from JamJamz was definitely appreciated...still though...
Dismissing the visual aspects, doesn't quite work - when - it's a visual thing for players, eh? It's the reference point. We're not flying red dots with little compass points on them.
I think different folks will have different comfort levels with some of the locations of those points. Like the Qin, there's a bunch that hate it - but for me, it feels right - because it's a bottom heavy ship...so it's something that the brain makes that connection, and it just pans out fine.
As somebody mentioned the Ambassador, yep - that's a ship that I just can't get used to flying. To me, it appears either as a forward heavy or top heavy ship - but with the pivot point so far back, the feeling of mass moving is off - my wee brain says it can't move like that - as it does...and...yeah...meh.
The one that's been the most cumbersome for me, mind you - is actually the aft 90 arc on a Chel Grett. Trying to fire an aft torp from one. Rotating the ship, camera, all over the place - wondering how I can't find that 90 arc to get the torp to fire. The fore 90, no worries - wham bam kaboom...the aft 90...it's hiding from me, man - it's hiding!
It's not just a matter of a small target between the pivot and the ship body. The pivot of the shape, even if the pivot point is internal, still comes into play.
By all appearances the pivot on the mirror qin is almost at the back end of the ship. Forward DHC weapons have 45 degrees of fire. Well... 45 degrees from where? 45 degrees starting at the back of the ship is a hell of a lot wider arc of fire than 45 degrees from the visual hardpoints.
And visual changes in such a model Do affect the outcome in a way you're not considering: as a player I'm using the logical assumption that weapons shoot out the front. It's how every game... EVER... works in this case. It's how common sense, and physics, and science, dictates such a thing would and should work. I will fly my ship to position it so that such a thing is possible. Now if the visual cues are so screwed up in comparison to the actual game engine capabilities, this ship will not do what players intend, it will not react properly nor handle properly. Visual cues in a video game are vital to perfectly balance with the "physics" of the game. The motion has to match the animation of the motion.
It's still a matter of angular momentum, but since you mentioned how the weapons work it's become even more than that.
-1 turn rate then average
-slightly better hull, basically average these days, for less shields is a really poor trade
-HUGE, like as long as a vorcha, gets in the way of dogfighting
-lacks 5 tac consoles like the fleet defient got
-to many tac stations. but post doffs getting introduced, its not to bad now.
i think the fleet version should get a 5/2 weapons setup, make that the only change and you will have a ship worth the down sides. or a battle cloak!
Are area weapons affected by the size of your ship? Meaning, if a ship explodes nearby, does the size of your ship affect whether the warp core breach hits you or not?
The answer is yes. The real question is: does the SURFACE AREA of the ship that interacts with the explosion bubble increase the damage you take by several factors, or do you just "take X damage" regardless of if your torso or your pinky toe are inside the damage zone.
Riddle me this then ... why is that my forward weapons won't fire on my scimitar if I am attacking a small target and it is less than 1KM away. If I back out to just beyond 1KM they start firing with 0 difference in angle.
Pivot does have an effect in these scenariors. It doesn't have an effect if you are firing at something 5KM away.
- Judge Aaron Satie
This is something that could be helpful in general - if we had an arc overlay we could trigger - rather than having to sit there hovering over a weapon to see it, eh?
Uh what? Inertia is a very powerful stat in pvp where everything goes fast. You cant use EPtE if you cant stop your ship.
And about the fleet mogh, it's a great ship.
I've definitely seen my ship's forward weapons fire "backwards", through my ship's hull, to hit targets that I was really close to, and possibly above or below of.
you dont want to stop, you want to slide! let my explain a bit about a low inertia number. you turn with your TRIBBLE mainly, allowing you to orbit your target as you slide around them. this seems to wip your nose around easier too, so you can keep cannons pointed beyond what your turn rate should grant you. use EPtE on these DHC cruisers, thats needed to use the low inertia score to your advantage. the mogh and avenger, with their 50 inertia, lack this for the most part. its SIGNIFICANTLY harder to use DHCs on them as a result, it cant snap that nose around and orbit their target, maneuvering in a way the escort your tangling with cant match. in exchange for this handicap, the mogh and avenger have their 5 forward weapons though, so making it harder to use front biased weapons goes a long way to ballance them, and makes it so all these other battlecruiser choices arent entirely invalid.
high inertia is a better match on ships that can have a 50+ turn rate, and an impulse mod of .2 or beter
Are firing range to target and firing range from target calculated in the same manner? I've noticed that some of my ships seem to be able to be shot at from a HUD range of around 10.3km, which remains outside of my own weapons range, but my nose seems to stick out like Cyrano de Bergerac. Is this because the firing range is determined by pivot point and the impact range is based on the ship model?
Fleet Mogai with a Valdor skin, one of the widest, and I can say I can very easily see that my firing has nothing to do with the visual location of my hardpoints.
Because your ship is much wider than the firing arc, and the other ship is outside it until you back up making the firing zone wider.
That's interesting, but imo it's easier to just stop and punch the enemy using a tractor beam rather than doing complex maneuvers to keep him inside your firing arc.
But at least it makes battlecruisers a little more unique.
Seriously, I'm sure you folks have seen a few here and there, parked in orbit or whatever. It's not that much bigger than the destroyer line! It's about twice as "tall" as a flat ship like the Mobius, but the Chimera is actually longer! I know that ships in STO aren't to scale, but really, the Avenger should've been maybe 20% bigger. Maybe a mite smaller than an Assault Cruiser, but at least larger than the Mobius and Chimera.
Then again, the Avenger has "just" 700 crew, probably cramped in Defiant-style living conditions, and the Mogh has 2000 comfortable, battle-ready warriors.
The Avenger is only about 400 metres long about the same size as the Chimera and unless they change the windows it clearly has a saucer that is 2 decks high at the rim (about 5 in total).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Yes, you say, it's got a 9 turn. That's a good turn!
But every other KDF not-Bortasqu has 10+. This thing thus has to be Neghvar-sized clunky to justify it's TRIBBLE-by-KDF-standards turn. Plus, there had to be SOME kind of penalty in exchange for the integral cloak, and that's in the ship being a huge target and being saddled with extra crew.
What, you say? More crew is good? Hogwash. Consider. Every time you are shot, all of your crew are killed. Now, the bonus you get for having crew depends on how many of them, as a percentage, are alive. If you have 50 crew, they all die, and then 50 of them resurrect themselves, you have 100% crew. If you have 2000 crew, they all die, and 50 resurrect themselves, you have 0.25% crew. Not An Advantage.
Personally, I think the Avenger should have been officially classed as a Destroyer instead of a battlecruiser, because that's what it is - both in size and function. (Obviously, the issue there is that Destroyers appear to be a subset of escorts and not traditionally privy to cruiser commands.)
as Les Grossman says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr9_GfeoCjk
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
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