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Re: T4 Dyson Tactical Advantage - The End Of PvP As We Knew It!!!
virusdancer
Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
EDIT: I need to go back and edit my comments in other posts about the 5 stack from a single player. Yes, it is possible...via pets...whether actual pets or projectiles that are considered pets. Hrmmm...oh well, better go fix those posts and then have a smoke.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Heh, I had to put the three exclamation points up there for the title to be suitably alarmist. I'm not raising any alarm though...that's not really my thing. :P
So anyway, what's this thread/post about then?
T4 Dyson Tactical Advantage
Info about it, so to speak...something that I didn't know before making the selection. I don't claim to know everything, don't claim to know more than you, and don't claim to know more than the average player. I've been lucky in spending some time on the forums, absorbing information that other folks have shared.
But yep, this was something that I didn't know. I kind of feel silly for not knowing it, but oh well - eh? I had the opportunity to test like everybody else...I uh...skipped testing. I got burnt out during LoR...so yeah, testing little things here and there? Sure...testing Seasons? Maybe every other one...or something like that. But anyway...
In casual conversations while trying to decide which of the two I should take, the common element was Active Hull Hardening provides +0 to +75 DRR based on your current health (yeah, GDF for all my friends) while Tactical Advantage only provided -0 to -15 DRR based on the current health of the target.
So many a pair of eyeballs dodged dust bunnies as they rolled across the floor... up to +75 vs. up to -15? No contest there, right? Like, wtf was Cryptic thinking here? Still, some folks might still think...well, debuffing DRR...even that little bit...it's all good.
And yeah, it actually is. It actually is.
You see, while the debuff itself only lasts about a second - painful, eh? - that's horrible, right? - blah, blah, blah...it can 5-stack.
Yep...it can 5-stack. That -0 to -15...can actually be -0 to -75 DRR to the target. Aye, a debuff placed on the target for all to enjoy!
It would be nifty if the tooltip for it mentioned the stacking, but alas - it does not. But lo' 'n behold, there it was stacking.
Yep, just info...no alarm.
Disappointed? Meh...fine...
2x Tac Fleet Avengers (FoMM, TacFleet, APA)
3x Rom Sci Recluse (SNB, Scan, Photonic Fleet)
12x Elite Mesh Weavers (Stacking APB3)
FAW
DEM
Protonic Polaron Arrays (25% chance on crit to do Proton damage - ignores shields)
Etc, etc, etc...
Happy now? Meh...
But yeah, anyway...would be nifty if the tooltip reflected that it can 5-stack, eh?
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Heh, I had to put the three exclamation points up there for the title to be suitably alarmist. I'm not raising any alarm though...that's not really my thing. :P
So anyway, what's this thread/post about then?
T4 Dyson Tactical Advantage
Info about it, so to speak...something that I didn't know before making the selection. I don't claim to know everything, don't claim to know more than you, and don't claim to know more than the average player. I've been lucky in spending some time on the forums, absorbing information that other folks have shared.
But yep, this was something that I didn't know. I kind of feel silly for not knowing it, but oh well - eh? I had the opportunity to test like everybody else...I uh...skipped testing. I got burnt out during LoR...so yeah, testing little things here and there? Sure...testing Seasons? Maybe every other one...or something like that. But anyway...
In casual conversations while trying to decide which of the two I should take, the common element was Active Hull Hardening provides +0 to +75 DRR based on your current health (yeah, GDF for all my friends) while Tactical Advantage only provided -0 to -15 DRR based on the current health of the target.
So many a pair of eyeballs dodged dust bunnies as they rolled across the floor... up to +75 vs. up to -15? No contest there, right? Like, wtf was Cryptic thinking here? Still, some folks might still think...well, debuffing DRR...even that little bit...it's all good.
And yeah, it actually is. It actually is.
You see, while the debuff itself only lasts about a second - painful, eh? - that's horrible, right? - blah, blah, blah...it can 5-stack.
Yep...it can 5-stack. That -0 to -15...can actually be -0 to -75 DRR to the target. Aye, a debuff placed on the target for all to enjoy!
It would be nifty if the tooltip for it mentioned the stacking, but alas - it does not. But lo' 'n behold, there it was stacking.
Yep, just info...no alarm.
Disappointed? Meh...fine...
2x Tac Fleet Avengers (FoMM, TacFleet, APA)
3x Rom Sci Recluse (SNB, Scan, Photonic Fleet)
12x Elite Mesh Weavers (Stacking APB3)
FAW
DEM
Protonic Polaron Arrays (25% chance on crit to do Proton damage - ignores shields)
Etc, etc, etc...
Happy now? Meh...
But yeah, anyway...would be nifty if the tooltip reflected that it can 5-stack, eh?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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this is what you get, everyone who complained that SNB was to critical at securing kills. guess you did you not realize that it was ether that, or face roll deeps. you were asking them to make dps not even need SNB anymore.
ta da!
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
your ruining pve by taking something away i haven't even earned yet!!!
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Nah, it can 5-stack from an individual. It's just Willard's torps are only fast enough to 3-stack. Cause they've got that 1.5s delay, it takes some trickery to bounce a bunch of things at a target. Should be pretty easy on any of FAW guys if I ever get to T4 on them...with the Winter Event coming up and doing it on 9 guys? Yeah, it's going to be a wee while...
See, that's why I just wanted to do the information aspect...but...okay, in all honesty - I didn't sleep last night and I'm hella loopy. :P
Technically, that should work out pretty good...hrmm...let me find that spreadsheet.
edit: If you have 0 DRR and there are no other debuffs applied, then you're scaling up to +75 while they scale you down to -75...would still leave you with 17.4% DR according to the spreadsheet.
Of course, how that actually played out in a fight...one would have to see.
It was funny seeing my highest damage on the Beach Ball without any Ambiplasma consoles.../facepalm funny, but funny all the same. SNB, Sensor Scan, 5-stack, believe somebody had FoMM on there after the SNB, and whatever else there was...boomdiggity, it was kind of funny.
On topic: I figured it would stack at least 5 times VD as 15x5 =75 so figured one would be the counter to the other. This is Cryptic's way of balancing stuff, add new damage here, add new resistance there, make yer choice. Still the defensive one kicks in sooner giving you better coverage and use most of the time. I can see some people forgoing resist consoles and picking it.
Speaking of recluse pets, anyone know if elite swarmed still have APB1? It'll be a dark day if they did.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Nah, that got pulled. I can't search to find the thread, it's giving me nothing found for anything I search for...bah.
Broke out the Google...
Fixed a description error on Elite Obelisk Swarmers (Hangar Pets) that indicated they have Attack Pattern Beta. They do not possess this ability.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=933401
They still didn't fix the error though, they have it in the description last I checked lol.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Yeah, that was the gist of my actual complaint with this...that it's not there in the tooltip, so folks might not make an informed decision. I only went with Tactical Advantage over Active Hull Hardening because I was on Willard...either he's fine or he's dead. There's not much middle ground.
Sure, sometimes I'll get caught in the splash from my own stuff and end up down below 50% and the chance to survive (btw, heh - you can't debuff yourself)...but usually if somebody's managed to get me below 50%, I'm already dead - I just don't know it yet.
If thats the case, the stacking is irrelevant. If five people are shooting me, I am going to die regardless of what traits I chose (in most cases)
Theyd have to be pretty bad to not kill me.
So there is yet another reason to go defense anyway.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Nope. Just one...it scales with your hull health. So that one person doing a 5-stack, that lowers your hull to where each stack would be -15...would take you to -75.
Having multiple people with Tactical Advantage shooting at you, though - would make it easier for them to maintain the 5-stack on you should you be reluctant to die to their fire.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Be great if somebody was able to pop in and answer this...my insomnia is officially over, and I'm heading to bed. For the life of me, I can't remember if it does or doesn't...likewise, I can't remember if Active Hull Hardening gets eaten by SNB.
Have fun, guys...remember, it's just info - we don't need to grab the torches, grab the pitchforks, and sound the alarm...later, all.
I wish they would just make Rep Passives that allow players to instant kill NPCs and have 99% godmode, and then just leave PvP the hell out of it.
So the target needs to be at 25% hull to get the full -15% x5?
Is it 5 stacks max, so more than one person with the trait doesn't help much?
If you get to the full debuff and the person heals to full, what happens to the stacks?
Edit: guess it doesn't matter as they only last 1 second..may actually be a good thing to counter healing if they persist that 1 second after being healed.
I'll have to wait and see, but this may not be too bad.
(And yes, I know that tacs can get all this stuff too)
Hmm, either more resist for not-dying, or guaranteed damage resistance debuff on what I am shooting once it is half-dead. Honestly tough choice.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Oh yeah, still not being an alarmist...
But are you somebody that complains about KDF BoPs? Sure, sure - if the person has the skill to pull it off in the Plesh, awesome for them. But think about those KDF BoPs...picking up Flanking...mixed in with some Tactical Advantage.
...it's just info. It's not whispering fire in a crowded movie theater.
Having the info at hand, will help you better deal with what's coming down the road as the Flanking eventually gets pushed out to the KDF Raiders.
In short, I'm torn between tanking my JHAS further or making it finish off stuff easier (My Defiant is a bonus if I pick Tactical Advtange). I'm going to wait a bit to see what y'all think after experimenting with it.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Meh, to me - like so many things - there's not going to be a single answer. It's going to be whatever's best for your build.
Willard...Tac Advantage.
Prophet...would likely be Active Hardening.
Plague...I'd have to think about it more.
Etc, etc, etc.
One of those things where if you could buy yourself some wiggle room with the defensive one, that might be the way to go. If you really couldn't, but you wouldn't need that wiggle room if the target was dead faster, then the offensive one might be the way to go.
It's going to be that holistic look.
Willard's a Sci. SNB, Sensor Scan. Drops Beach Balls with a big DR debuff. Doesn't have access to APA. Doesn't decloak for the Rombush. Tends to play more of a support role. As a force multiplier, the Tac Advantage...adds to that role.
Course, I didn't know about the stacking when I picked it for him. Like I said, it was mainly just a case of looking at how I play him, his ship, etc, etc, etc.
5 stacks isnt the max
pets count towards the stacks
bfaw doesnt add stacks to multiple people only your targeted player
same for pets
nimbus also adds stacks
as does photonic fleet
basically a sci with nimbus and phtonic fleet and pets can do over 10 stacks on thier own
i
Solo STF's With Optional ISE: 3:34
i have all logs saved of these so if you would like to view them send me a pm and it can be arranged
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Hrmm, see - I've never seen it go above 5 stacks. Even dropping out Nimbus and Photonic, heck - with everybody breaking out all their pets/call-ins - haven't seen it go above 5.
But yeah, TT doesn't clear it.
And the stacks are actual stacks, not just a visual bug - the target's DR drops.
Also noticed something weird. I switched out Willard's normal weapons for 4x Mk I Plasma Cannons and 3x Mk I Plasma Turrets. Firing the seven of them, it never went above a single stack. The one stack was constant, but it never went above one. Going back to Willard's normal mix of torps, it was easy to dance a bit to 3-stack with just torps.
Need to try a mix of Cannons, Beams, Torps to see if the 3-stack with Willard is actually a bug and not working as intended. That each person should only be able to apply a single stack to the target.
With every rep tier addition, they make this game less realistic.
I know I personally get frustrated when I have full shields and am sitting there watching my hull lower over 10 seconds while my shields stay at 100% because of TRIBBLE like this.
Glad cryptic doesn't design computer simulations for the armed forces.. we would be losing wars!!!!!!! A jet pilot would be like "why isn't my subnuke stopping those missles being fired at me????!?!!? *BOOM*"
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I miss when I felt like I had to play STO more often.. but well.. when the Power Creep reaches LOL levels...
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Seeing how on two ideally set up teams these procs will end up more or less cancelling out, can we just disable this rep bonus from PvP altogether? Usually I'm against separating PvE and PvP mechanics, but all this does is punish teams (and especially pugs) that are unable to balance the passives properly.
Please see Post#28: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=13848131&postcount=28
Hrmm, well...it's a tough one. Heh, I forgot to pay attention to stacking stuff - I got distracted by blowing myself up with a crit Temporal (yeah, my sleep pattern is shot to Hell and I'm alternating between loopy and cranky (the first is good for laughs, the second is requiring too many apologies))...
With this, though, I think it's still going to come down to build and looking at what's best. Thing is, that's getting more and more complicated - more and more variable...while this, as a Dil/Zen cost to change - isn't like switching a BOFF or piece of gear.
Could do an example (will do), but it's going to be a bad example. Cause there are just so many variables out there.
Let's have our target with the following: Accolade (+2 DRR), 6 Starship Threat (+8.4 DRR), 6 Starship Hull Plating (+12.6 DRR), & a single E-Neut Mk XII (+21.2 DRR) for a total DRR of 44.2 or 30.3% DR. No buffs. They got SNB'd, eh? Okay then...
What about debuffs though? We'll just use some base values from STOwiki - note though, that some of them will be modified by things like Aux level and Skills. Let's have the target hit by the following: Sensor Scan (-36 DRR), Fire of My Mark (-50 DRR), Disruptor Proc (-10 DRR), & a Beach Ball (-33 DRR) for a total DRR of -129 or -114.2% DR.
So let's just run those two against each other to see what we get, eh? We get -25.3% DR. So our target is going to be taking +25.3% damage (that's the final modifier - resistance, whether positive or negative is the final number applied to the damage as it hits the target).
Okay then, so where to next? Let's go with the Active Hull Hardening - the defensive version. I'm not sure of the exact numbers where these will scale, so I'm just going to go with a 5-stack at +25, +50, & +75. The following are a continuation of the comparison from the last paragraph. The /0 will represent that no Tactical Advantage has been applied.
Base: -25.3% DR
+25/0: -1.4% DR
+50/0: 14.3% DR
+75/0: 25.1% DR
So yeah, that's the way one might expect something like that to work. It's getting better for the target, right? When they hit that threshold for the +75, they're taking 25.1% less damage.
What if the target did not have that and they were instead getting hit by Tac Advantage?
Base: -25.3% DR
0/-25: -33.5% DR
0/-50: -40.9% DR
0/-75: -47.6% DR
Here though, when the target has hit that threshold for the -75...they're taking +47.6% more damage. Yep, it's the "Kick them while they're down!" Passive. Ahem, anyway.
Something to note here, is the following (imho):
A) Having Active Hull Hardening saw a difference in damage at the 75 threshold of 50.4%, as it went from -25.3% to +25.1% DR.
Okay, how about when both are in play?
Base: -25.3% DR
+25/-25: -7.5% DR
+50/-50: 5.1% DR
+75/-75: 14.4% DR
So let's do a quick compare of that, eh?
+25/-25 vs. +25/0: -7.5% DR vs -1.4% DR; so having Tac Advantage increase damage by 6.1%.
+25/-25 vs. 0/-25: -7.5% DR vs -33.5% DR; so having Active Hull reduces damage by 26%.
+50/-50 vs. +50/0: 5.1% DR vs. 14.3% DR; so having Tac Advantage increases damage by 9.2%.
+50/-50 vs. 0/-50: 5.1% DR vs. -40.9% DR; so having Active Hull reduces damage by 46%.
+75/-75 vs. +75/0: 14.4% DR vs. 25.1% DR; so having Tac Advantage increases damage by 10.7%.
+75/-75 vs. 0/-75: 14.4% DR vs. -47.6% DR; so having Active Hull reduces damage by 62%.
Again, it's a bad example - cause it's just an example. There could still be active buffs in play, no SNB. There might be more or fewer debuffs in play. Etc, etc, etc...it's just an example.
Let me explain (I still have to do the tests, but I'm kind of tired)...
agresiel2 pointed to pets taking advantage of the passive as well. I said that I noticed I could stack to 3 with Willard by dancing him around. But that's not quite true. I could stack to 3...because of targetable torps.
You see, targetable torps are actually...pets.
So with what agresiel2 said about it being passed to pets...then that would explain Willard's ability to stack (and the issue I encountered not being able to stack while doing 7x Cannons/Turrets).
So it would be a case that the tooltip is not incorrect. It does not stack. Each entity can apply the debuff once.
So the bug would be...the passive being passed to pet entities.
So imagine the following:
5x Sci (you'll have 5 stacks)
in full Carriers with 24 pets each (you'll now have 125 stacks)
dropping out Photonic Fleet each (you'll now have 140 stacks)
dropping out Nimbus each (you'll now have 155 stacks)
firing off various targetables (you'll now have...yeah, lotsa freakin' stacks)
So...off to the Adventure Zone with Willard...to drop out Photonic and Nimbus on test Voth. I don't feel like opening the Obelisk on him, so no hangar pets for this.
And nope, can't get past 5 stacks...but it is targetable torps and pets that allow the player to go past a single stack.
So then...that should be something to factor into a person's decision on taking it or not, eh? It may also be a bug (likely a bug, but that's up to Cryptic to decide).
I need to go back and edit my comments in other posts about the 5 stack from a single player. Yes, it is possible...via pets...whether actual pets or projectiles that are considered pets. Hrmmm...oh well, better go fix those posts and then have a smoke.
edit: Lol, I was lazy - I just dropped it in each of my posts in the thread.
Yeah, I feel bad for the misinformation on the 5-stack thing...I should have done more testing earlier as I said, but I've felt like TRIBBLE the past couple of days. Technically a single player can 5-stack, but they need some form of "pets" to do it.
So a single Sci could cover the 5-stack, as long as they're alive. Would be easier for them to do in some sort of hangar boat.
But...that's if that's not a bug.
If it's a bug, well - then a single player would only be able to do a single stack...at which point, I'd have to wonder why somebody would take it outside of the situation I was looking at with Willard...if he's caught out where he's at 50% or below health, heh - he's probably already dead.
Hrmm, definitely want to hear back from a dev on whether the pet angle is a bug...honestly, until we do - I'd recommend nobody select their T4 unless they're absolutely sure they want the Active Hull Hardening.
I'd wait to hear back on whether it is bugged or not...instead of making that choice under a premise that might get patched out and being stuck with a passive you don't want...and grabbing a torch and pitchfork to join in the potential outrage that would ensue if it is bugged and fixed...
...just my 2 cents at this point.