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PvE mission rewards - you're doing it wrong, Cryptic...
suaveks
Member Posts: 1,736 Arc User
Assuming what Taco has said recently, about the devs actually reading our feedback posted on the forums, I've decided to take my chances and present my concerns about a certain issue.
The issue basically boils down to - you don't value our time, Cryptic...
What I mean by that is, players like to be rewarded for their time. It's one of the main concepts of an MMO/RPG. Players like loot, rewards, feel of progression. The thing is, players also like to play the game at their leisure, play the content THEY want to play, not the content YOU want/force us to play.
And all the talk about constant grind aside, you've failed at the latter case, Cryptic. I recall Geko talking in one of the recent Priority One interviews about some missions not being as popular as others. He also stated that players will always do content that is most worthwhile, which is true, showing that you realise at least in some way how many players operate.
Yet with that being the issue you don't seem to do anything to address that. In fact, you only make it worse, with most of the missions rewarding only specific marks and nothing else.
You're wondering why the community keeps doing the same missions over and over, while many others are barely played anymore, yet you insist of spreading different mission rewards between different missions. And even then, you're not making it worthwhile most of the times.
Examples
STFs are currently the most played endgame content. And for good reason - they're "quite" challenging (despite all the power creep and players able to do solo runs), they reward a reasonable sum of dilithium, reasonable sum of marks and a random amount of Borg Neural Processors. All of this makes it worthwhile - the dilithium, marks for the reputation or to be converted into dilithium if you don't need them.
Some other missions don't reward marks, but have other benefits. Starbase 24 or Gorn Minefield are pretty quick missions that reward dilithium as well as some gear. The latter can even be combined with a daily wrapper, which also rewards some dilithium and Fleet Marks, making it worthwhile.
Those are mostly older missions that were in the game for quite some time now. But what about other missions? Mostly new ones?
Basically no PvE mission introduced over the course of the last year rewards dilithium ore anymore, aside from Crystalline Entity. It's just marks, marks marks, marks... And often very little marks at that.
What is more, many of these missions are time-based. Meaning, you cannot rush it like you can with the STFs, but you just have to wait for a particular timer while doing your thing (often waiting...). Not only that, but there's also scoring element, which in turn affects the amount of marks you receive. As such, we've got numerous missions that can last from 10 to up to 30 minutes that are unreliable (especially with pugs) and reward only a small amount of marks, sometimes even with a good score.
And even then those marks are not balanced properly. I mean, why would I want to grind Azure Nebula, which is capped at about ~25 marks as far as I remember, but takes about 15 minutes to complete? Why should I spend about 30 minutes with incompetent people doing Mine Trap, which rewards AT BEST ~50 marks and nothing else? Or how about Atmosphere Assault, which on average also rewards little more than 20 marks, yet can drag on and on and has very strict optional conditions?
And these are just examples. The rewards are laughably low most of the time. Many missions are better than others when it comes to the amount of marks received for a time you need to spend, making others kind of pointless.
Also, what if I don't need those particular marks anymore? I've capped my reputation, don't need/want the gear, and I'm sinking in Fleet Marks because I've got no opportunity to use them anywhere, as all fleet projects are filled instantly. I know it's all about having fun and all that, but when it comes to getting something out of it why would I spend 20+ minutes getting angry at players in Mine Trap for mere 30-50 marks, when I could do a ground STF for a high amount of dilithium? And I know you can turn marks into dilithium, but do you really think 50 marks for 500 dilithium is a fair conversion rate, especially when most of the missions reward 20-30 marks on average and can last for 10-20 minutes?
What I'm basically getting at is, Cryptic, give us a reason to do other types of missions even if we don't need the marks. Making them more worthwhile would in turn encourage other players to run them, making finding teams easier. As it is now we've got to organize an "event" and announce it few days earlier for people to come and play something like Mine Trap (properly) or Breaking the Planet, just for fun. If I spontaneously ask any of my friends or fleetmates if they want to do Atmosphere Assault, for example, I rarely get more than one or two volunteers. Because others would rather grind STFs or other "more worthwhile" missions instead.
Possible solutions
One possible way to address this issue that comes to my head is just to start treating Marks as an additional reward, not the primary one. Add dilitihum or gear rewards to all PvE missions, even if just small amounts. Would it really hurt you that bad if a 10-15 minute mission would reward 480 dilithium ore? Or a ground mission to reward 640 dilithium ore in addition to marks? It still wouldn't be as worthwhile as STFs, but at least it would be a start, and players would actually feel they're getting something out of a mission and not just small amounts of marks they need thousands of for their overly grindy reputation...
I won't suggest adding the option to choose any marks we want, because it's logical to have romulan/nukara marks while fighting Tholians for example, and not omega or dyson marks. Adding a universal reward in the form of dilithium could add some live into some of the less popular missions. Players who are still grinding marks for their rep could at least get some dilithium ore for their daily refinement out of it, while players who don't need marks could convert it into a bit bigger chunk of dilithium.
As it is now, we're getting a new reputation in a few days with two new PvE missions, yet the only thing they reward are - once again - marks. And supposedly even lower amount of marks than before, due to the reputation changes. So would it really be "worthwhile" to do 20-30min The Breach for about 50 Dyson Marks? That's still just about 500 dilithium ore. Do you think players will keep doing this mission in a few months, when they'll cap their dyson reputation and get all the gear, or do you think they'll go back to grinding STFs and NWS?
Another solution would be to just increase the Mark rewards, with dilithium conversion in mind. But we all know this is not gonna happen, as it's got to be all grindy and "popular" for the next few months.
As such, I'd stick with the dilithium suggestion. Adding at least a small amount to all PvE missions wouldn't hurt the economy, in my opinion, as there would still be better ways of getting your daily amount (i.e. STFs, Foundry and such) if players just want to grind. Others, though, might at least feel more motivated to run a less popular mission every now and again, feeling they'll get at least SOMETHING out of it, and not just a couple dozens of useless marks.
TL;DR
PvE mission rewards are laughably low. No point doing most of them due to poor time:reward ratio. Add dilithium ore or other type of reward to make them more worthwhile for ALL players, not just the ones grinding marks for their reputation.
The issue basically boils down to - you don't value our time, Cryptic...
What I mean by that is, players like to be rewarded for their time. It's one of the main concepts of an MMO/RPG. Players like loot, rewards, feel of progression. The thing is, players also like to play the game at their leisure, play the content THEY want to play, not the content YOU want/force us to play.
And all the talk about constant grind aside, you've failed at the latter case, Cryptic. I recall Geko talking in one of the recent Priority One interviews about some missions not being as popular as others. He also stated that players will always do content that is most worthwhile, which is true, showing that you realise at least in some way how many players operate.
Yet with that being the issue you don't seem to do anything to address that. In fact, you only make it worse, with most of the missions rewarding only specific marks and nothing else.
You're wondering why the community keeps doing the same missions over and over, while many others are barely played anymore, yet you insist of spreading different mission rewards between different missions. And even then, you're not making it worthwhile most of the times.
Examples
STFs are currently the most played endgame content. And for good reason - they're "quite" challenging (despite all the power creep and players able to do solo runs), they reward a reasonable sum of dilithium, reasonable sum of marks and a random amount of Borg Neural Processors. All of this makes it worthwhile - the dilithium, marks for the reputation or to be converted into dilithium if you don't need them.
Some other missions don't reward marks, but have other benefits. Starbase 24 or Gorn Minefield are pretty quick missions that reward dilithium as well as some gear. The latter can even be combined with a daily wrapper, which also rewards some dilithium and Fleet Marks, making it worthwhile.
Those are mostly older missions that were in the game for quite some time now. But what about other missions? Mostly new ones?
Basically no PvE mission introduced over the course of the last year rewards dilithium ore anymore, aside from Crystalline Entity. It's just marks, marks marks, marks... And often very little marks at that.
What is more, many of these missions are time-based. Meaning, you cannot rush it like you can with the STFs, but you just have to wait for a particular timer while doing your thing (often waiting...). Not only that, but there's also scoring element, which in turn affects the amount of marks you receive. As such, we've got numerous missions that can last from 10 to up to 30 minutes that are unreliable (especially with pugs) and reward only a small amount of marks, sometimes even with a good score.
And even then those marks are not balanced properly. I mean, why would I want to grind Azure Nebula, which is capped at about ~25 marks as far as I remember, but takes about 15 minutes to complete? Why should I spend about 30 minutes with incompetent people doing Mine Trap, which rewards AT BEST ~50 marks and nothing else? Or how about Atmosphere Assault, which on average also rewards little more than 20 marks, yet can drag on and on and has very strict optional conditions?
And these are just examples. The rewards are laughably low most of the time. Many missions are better than others when it comes to the amount of marks received for a time you need to spend, making others kind of pointless.
Also, what if I don't need those particular marks anymore? I've capped my reputation, don't need/want the gear, and I'm sinking in Fleet Marks because I've got no opportunity to use them anywhere, as all fleet projects are filled instantly. I know it's all about having fun and all that, but when it comes to getting something out of it why would I spend 20+ minutes getting angry at players in Mine Trap for mere 30-50 marks, when I could do a ground STF for a high amount of dilithium? And I know you can turn marks into dilithium, but do you really think 50 marks for 500 dilithium is a fair conversion rate, especially when most of the missions reward 20-30 marks on average and can last for 10-20 minutes?
What I'm basically getting at is, Cryptic, give us a reason to do other types of missions even if we don't need the marks. Making them more worthwhile would in turn encourage other players to run them, making finding teams easier. As it is now we've got to organize an "event" and announce it few days earlier for people to come and play something like Mine Trap (properly) or Breaking the Planet, just for fun. If I spontaneously ask any of my friends or fleetmates if they want to do Atmosphere Assault, for example, I rarely get more than one or two volunteers. Because others would rather grind STFs or other "more worthwhile" missions instead.
Possible solutions
One possible way to address this issue that comes to my head is just to start treating Marks as an additional reward, not the primary one. Add dilitihum or gear rewards to all PvE missions, even if just small amounts. Would it really hurt you that bad if a 10-15 minute mission would reward 480 dilithium ore? Or a ground mission to reward 640 dilithium ore in addition to marks? It still wouldn't be as worthwhile as STFs, but at least it would be a start, and players would actually feel they're getting something out of a mission and not just small amounts of marks they need thousands of for their overly grindy reputation...
I won't suggest adding the option to choose any marks we want, because it's logical to have romulan/nukara marks while fighting Tholians for example, and not omega or dyson marks. Adding a universal reward in the form of dilithium could add some live into some of the less popular missions. Players who are still grinding marks for their rep could at least get some dilithium ore for their daily refinement out of it, while players who don't need marks could convert it into a bit bigger chunk of dilithium.
As it is now, we're getting a new reputation in a few days with two new PvE missions, yet the only thing they reward are - once again - marks. And supposedly even lower amount of marks than before, due to the reputation changes. So would it really be "worthwhile" to do 20-30min The Breach for about 50 Dyson Marks? That's still just about 500 dilithium ore. Do you think players will keep doing this mission in a few months, when they'll cap their dyson reputation and get all the gear, or do you think they'll go back to grinding STFs and NWS?
Another solution would be to just increase the Mark rewards, with dilithium conversion in mind. But we all know this is not gonna happen, as it's got to be all grindy and "popular" for the next few months.
As such, I'd stick with the dilithium suggestion. Adding at least a small amount to all PvE missions wouldn't hurt the economy, in my opinion, as there would still be better ways of getting your daily amount (i.e. STFs, Foundry and such) if players just want to grind. Others, though, might at least feel more motivated to run a less popular mission every now and again, feeling they'll get at least SOMETHING out of it, and not just a couple dozens of useless marks.
TL;DR
PvE mission rewards are laughably low. No point doing most of them due to poor time:reward ratio. Add dilithium ore or other type of reward to make them more worthwhile for ALL players, not just the ones grinding marks for their reputation.
Post edited by suaveks on
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Comments
I was grinding the Nukara rep for one of my character. During the mark event, I did Azure, twice. I earned an average 25marks, with what seemed to be the average team player, not really good, but not so bad either.
However, by doing CE, I earned around 50marks + dil + gear. Doing the Tholian boss Nukara ground hard, I had 50marks + gear. For the same amount of time.
Now, tell me why I should do the Azure nebula mission ?
When there are new missions, I play them, at least once, but for most of them I don't come back. Atmosphere assault is awesome, but rewards are bad and the mission is difficult with the average player. And it's just another example.
Another possible change would be to had a daily queued mission, rewarding extras. The mission itself being randomised amongst several (IE play Azure today for X dil, and Vault ensnared tomorrow). Or an hourly "play this mission for more reward" kind of event.
Cryptic, you keep adding new awesome missions, but none of them award enough. You really need to do something about it.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
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That's a separate issue, I'm afraid. Truth is, loots and drops in STO are dead now. Everything that's actually good you either get from the reputation system, fleet holdings, lockboxes or Lobi Store. I cannot name a single useful item that's only available as a drop. The closest to such thing were all the Mk XII consoles made from Alien Artifacts, but even those are gonna become obsolete once fleets start building their Fleet Spire for absurdly overpowered tactical consoles.
Still, unique random drops would be a viable way to address the issue I've described. I also remember doing Nukara missions and felling that little bit of excitement when opening an equipment box. Now the boxes are worthless. Same goes for older STFs - people didn't like all the random Prototype Tech drops, but they were also the reason people were doing STFs in the first place - especially ground ones.
I think Cryptic is adding some reward boxes to the new Dyson Reputation, but from what they've said the boxes contain no unique items - only Rare consoles, weapons or the Voth Neural Implant.
Once again, you're doing it wrong, Cryptic... Heck, add a 1% of getting a Master Key as a drop if you don't want to work on new(er) stuff.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
At least we get a choice of marks for things now. I would like to see Dilithium given for these missions you mention. Especially the longer ones like Mine Trap. The regular loot drops can be good though in some of the STFs and Minefield. I got a very rare MK XII Polaron Beam Array at the end of Khitomer Vortex Elite last night worth at least a mil EC...
Please summarize or present bullet points if you seriously want their attention.
- Judge Aaron Satie
back when the original stfs were split up, there was a purpose for each of the six missions. you had to run all six if you wanted a full space and ground set and you generally had to run them multiple times. in the private channels, games for all six maps would be continuous and there was hardly a shortage of participants daily. even the optional objectives meant something with a group party bag at the end.
what I miss most about all of this is the "wow" factor. at the end, with the group party bag and the mission reward, there was always a chance at the "wow" factor. getting that piece of tech that you really needed and that feeling of "fist pump, hell yeah" is what drove most of us to run those missions repeatedly. it brought the players closer together at the end when the lucky ones shared their spoils and the others responded with congratulations and at some times, envy.
now, people leave as quickly as they can. it's all pretty much the same. we run the missions that we can do as quickly and effortlessly as possible. once everything is said and done, there is no real incentive to go back and run these missions again. you run them once successfully for the optional if you really want the costume unlock, but that's about it.
in essence, there's no way for cryptic to keep up with the demand for new content given the speed that most of us gamers burn through it. the fault lies in the lack of replay value for our existing content and even within that existing content, there's a player bias as to which missions are the easiest and quickest to complete, while still providing an optimal reward.
I'd like to see a lot of the junk drops removed.
One of the top complaints I've heard from friends who try the game is that they don't know how to get EC and other games have trained them not to bother with vendoring. Either you want to use something or you want to sell it on the auction house/exchange.
I realize Cryptic makes money from selling extra bag space but I think the current approach is not the best way to do it.
I think it would be far better to have enemies drop EC and rare pieces that are thematically appropriate. Ie. enemies drop the kinds of weapons and consoles that those enemies use plus random commodities.
Now, from there, you fill up inventory with DOff commodities and crafting supplies. I have some thoughts on how you revive crafting.
Part of that, in my mind, means giving each "war front" that is playable by all factions its own reputation, marks, and crafting elements.
I'm also inclined to think that crafting should focus on hybridization.
Those Hybrid weapon types like we have in lockboxes? Enable the crafting of all possible hybrid types. Enabe fleet quality crafting at fleet starbases.
Enable hybrid kits and hybrid genetic trait resequencers. (For example: Vulcan genetic resequencer Opens up Vulcan ears at the tailor plus Vulcan traits.)
But the reagents (or ingredients if you prefer) could be tied to replay. You want spiral wave weapons? You replay Cardassian missions and gather phasers and disruptors from elsewhere while gathering Cardassian technology samples.
That being said than that would indicate a at best of 35 w/2.5x, if optional is missed, and event not present than it would only reward 14 marks as a base
Definitely would be nice if mark earning was equally, and as easily obtained as omega marks for romulan/nukara. And gear was set at also equal pricing, and not the current uneven amount like 9k/35k....etc causing you w/cap to have to rely on alts or go that extra day to get the gear piece leaving you with an uneven amount of dilith.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Good Luck with that...
Thousands of People pulling in every possible direction at once... the "Story" wouldn't move any bit... not even getting started on those that give a rats a*s about Story and will try to TRIBBLE it up for a quick laugh...
This Stuff is better suited for a Single Player Game... or a "Standard" Multiplayer Game.
Wait for star citizen. guy who made freelancer and Wing commander is making Star citizen. He called it Freelancer on steroids.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
The difference is this. Not all mmo's have grind + a terrible reward system. STO is one of the few that does this right now and it's suffering because of it. It's gotten worse as well with the recent nerfs to dilithium especially for the older STFs. So saying that it doesn't matter because everyone's doing it isn't accurate sorry.
All MMOs that have a grind eventually start feeling a pinch because people have better things to do with their time that are more rewarding than sitting there doing the same unrewarding nonsense for pennies.
I wouldn't hold my breath OP your post was good but the people they have in charge here right now are the worst of the worst imo with how they accused players of exploiting with no apologies, tried to make the game worse with nerfs on several fronts, and have done nothing to remedie the grind involved to max out spec points.
This lifer won't be back until they fix these issues I can tell you that right now.
My character Tsin'xing
anyone remember when they cut the random item reward from stfs a year ago or so?
reactions been the same, empty queues and much protest on forums.
but cryptic back then actually realized their mistake and they
put them back a few weeks later.
something that is absolutely clear wont happen with the new cryptic team.
they just repeated a mistake that backfired before.
that arrogant geko statement "but we make the game!!1" really gets funnier over time.
yeah op, on point, any effort/reward fairness went out the window with dr,
not just with the stf queues sadly.
Cryptic as our representatives meekly go along with everything as they have from Launch, kowtowing to whoever holds the reins.
Expect more of the same for the life of the game.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree with this completely. Though 20 player missions should reward 1.5x the marks to make the queues easier to fill. I think they should extend this to the battlezones as well, giving the xp of Kobali, and the dill marks and implants(or area appropriate special item). It would also be nice if adventure zones had non-combat gameplay to reward R&D mats - like doing a puzzle on New Romulus and earning 10 common, 5 uncommon or better, 3 rare or better mats for completion. This adds a small bit of diversity to the game, and makes getting R&D mats easier both in effort expended and variety of ways/places to earn them.
It'd be nice to see scavenger hunts across the bigger maps too which could reward a randomized rare or better mk XII item and a small amount of dill. The art in this game is very nice and everyone would enjoy a little reward for exploring it. Just don't do something painful like make us warp around from planet to planet. But if I could grab a few friends and run around Defera looking for Easter eggs while hunting Borg I think that could be good fun.
Another idea too is provide a daily dill reward for completing a story mission, and a small amount of dill and marks (kind of like in the delta quadrant) for patrols. This would encourage players to go back and visit old missions, some of which are pretty good and deserve some spot light.
You (the devs) work hard on creating this content after all and if rewards are equal (in amount of course, marks should be appropriate to the mission) the players will play a more diverse selection of the content and the popular missions will be the good ones, not the ones that simply pay good.
Well said.