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Demotion process for Admirals
abfabfleet
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Respectfully to Cryptic/PWE:
The fleet I am currently in has approx. 15 admirals which we are all good friends. About 10 mos ago we decided to promote one with 5 toons and over time discovered this toon stripped our fleet provisionary. When confronted we discovered that the 'kick' and 'demote' option was for this person to placed on a countdown to 14 days one toon at a time. This person, who remains nameless, has logged in countless times within 24 days to stop this process. How is this acceptable on any level? Granted this 'demotion' process was never like this before and I understand it was done for some reason, but let me ask any of the devs and moderators, when you demote someone for a clear infraction, and I do understand an admiral. Why should it take 14 days? Any other level you can kick or demote or give warning to. Considering, you are allowing a person to do more damage, harass, insult and do serious damage to a fleet by allowing them to stay present and even log into another one of their toons to stop the process of demotion.
The 15 of us are long time friends 13 of us are lifetime members and worked devotedly to grinding and getting our fleet to Tier 3 up until the past 60 days when we discovered our fleet provisionary was stripped out by one person with enough credit in dilithium and FC. Again, I ask PWE/Cryptic, yeah a bold move. But why should we attempt to pay this fleet member off for him to leave the fleet considering the game clearly has a set of house rules regarding tolerance.
To other fleets that are having this same issue, I'd strongly ask you reply for guidance on how to handle this issue, because I'll be damned if I allow one person to destroy what the rest of us has worked so hard to destroy this T3 going into T4 fleet.
Thoughts?
The fleet I am currently in has approx. 15 admirals which we are all good friends. About 10 mos ago we decided to promote one with 5 toons and over time discovered this toon stripped our fleet provisionary. When confronted we discovered that the 'kick' and 'demote' option was for this person to placed on a countdown to 14 days one toon at a time. This person, who remains nameless, has logged in countless times within 24 days to stop this process. How is this acceptable on any level? Granted this 'demotion' process was never like this before and I understand it was done for some reason, but let me ask any of the devs and moderators, when you demote someone for a clear infraction, and I do understand an admiral. Why should it take 14 days? Any other level you can kick or demote or give warning to. Considering, you are allowing a person to do more damage, harass, insult and do serious damage to a fleet by allowing them to stay present and even log into another one of their toons to stop the process of demotion.
The 15 of us are long time friends 13 of us are lifetime members and worked devotedly to grinding and getting our fleet to Tier 3 up until the past 60 days when we discovered our fleet provisionary was stripped out by one person with enough credit in dilithium and FC. Again, I ask PWE/Cryptic, yeah a bold move. But why should we attempt to pay this fleet member off for him to leave the fleet considering the game clearly has a set of house rules regarding tolerance.
To other fleets that are having this same issue, I'd strongly ask you reply for guidance on how to handle this issue, because I'll be damned if I allow one person to destroy what the rest of us has worked so hard to destroy this T3 going into T4 fleet.
Thoughts?
Post edited by abfabfleet on
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I do however also not understand how fleets always let in members and promote them to a level of having absolute freedom and then complaining that those individuals "rob" them. It is your free choice to promote someone to a status of unlimited access and basically your fault if that individual appears to be doing harm, not Cryptic's.
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The core problem here stems from cryptic's unwillingness or inability to address accounts instead of just characters. In the OP's situation you have a fleet with many fleet leaders, all of which are in agreement, that 1 needs to be removed. Because he has multiple characters as rank 7 they are unable to get rid of him because he can "rescue" himself with his alts. Surely it was not the intent of this fleet security system to allow rogue rank 7s to continue to harass and damage a fleet.
There are three solutions to this, all of which were suggested and ignored when this system was first released.
1. Make it an account wide demotion so you can demote all of an accounts rank 7 characters at once rather than 1 at a time. Leave the time and rescue system as is. This would not solve the issue of someone having multiple accounts with multiple rank 7s, but that should be a small minority.
2. Implement a voting system to override the 14 day timer, if a majority of the account holders with rank 7 characters vote for the removal of 1 character it is removed immediately.
3. Make it impossible to rescue one character with another on the same account. Atleast this way while slow it would be possible to remove someone over the course of weeks or months, rather than impossible as it is now.
Obviously option #1 would be the best choice, but any would be a better system than we have now.
Something to keep in mind, this is not just an issue if you have a fleet leader go rogue. Imagine if one of the fleet leaders in your fleet had his account TRIBBLE, you have 4 or 5 other fleet leaders so he can't steal the fleet, great system working as it should. However since the other leaders are all powerless to do anything except demote one character at a time which he can promptly rescue the TRIBBLE leader will be able to systematically go through and kick every single member of your fleet, wipe out your bank, and raid your provisions to his hearts content. Eventually the account holder will get through to cryptic support and get his account back, but this could take days, and the damage would be done. This is the fundamental flaw in the current fleet security system.
We are a young and small fleet but maybe you could adapt the system we use in our fleet.
We have 4 fleet admirals (founder of the fleet) and we made a deal:
Rank 7 (admiral) ? 4 main characters (no alts) so there is just 4 of us
Rank 6 (commodore) ? fleet admirals alts with almost all privileges?. To be able to add a project if we play with alts (but we can?t kick nor promote to any rank)
Rank 5 (captain) ? highest rank that a fleet member can have (privilege to buy stuff, no restriction to fleet bank)
Rank 4 ? member can?t buy, but can take up to 3 items from bank and some ec per day (it?s a low number so that we do not have to check the bank every 2 minutes)
Rank 3 ? 2 items and less ec per day
Rank 2 ? 1 item and even more less ec per day
Rank 1 ? we keep the new fleet members to see if they will stay with us a week
VR MKXII we use or we sell it asap to keep the fleet running. If a fleet member needs help to gear up we try to help per case.
It is far easier to buy a person VR MKXII and that he leaves the fleet (it happened) then to think it?s in the bank and that is not the case. It was my choice to give it away, no one stole from us.
And if one of the tree guys goes crazy in that case we have a bigger problem than few pieces of any gear which are worth nothing?
0, yes zero very rare AP MK II dual canons
p.s. I will execute my rare Jamhadar who is serving under me for 1,5 years for incompetence its just a MK II dual canon, he is Energy Weapons Officer not a Doctor.
I know this wont stop the provision stripping, but if you can buy out all the existing provision items among your fleet members, and dont run anymore, eventually you'll cause the well to run dry and the guy will most likely leave the fleet looking for a new gold mine. At that point, you can start restoring your bank and resume provisoning. And at least this way, your remaining provisions will be going to your fleet.
If he is top rank, I'm guessing he could start new provision jobs, but don't contribute to them.
I realise this is not ideal, and could set you back quite some time, but it's the best idea I've got. Send a message to those in your fleet so they know what's happening and why it is.
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I am not a Rank 7 on my fleet so perhaps I don't understand this as well as I could. So if you could enlighten me, I thought the controls simply prevented one Rank 7 from demoting more than a single other Rank 7 every 14 days.
Couldn't 5 of your other admirals get on and demote all 5 of his characters at once? In this way it has to be done as a group rather than just 1 person doing all the demoting (which is what the system was put in to stop).
How about this type of setup:
Rank 7 - Fleet Admiral (Two People Max)
Absolute control
Rank 6 - Fleet Admiral (Your Other Thirteen Admirals)
Project Activation, Promotion (Rank 5 & Below), & Bank Control
Rank 5 - Executive Assistants
Events coordinators & Promotion (Rank 4 & Below)
Perks: Full Bank Access & Events Planning
Rank 4 - Captain (Executive Assistant in training)
Promotion Req: participation, set contribution criteria, & recommendations from two admirals.
Perks: Partial Bank Access
Rank 3 - Commander
Promotion Req: three to four week waiting period, participation, & set contribution criteria
Perks: Fleet Store Access
Rank 2 - Ensign
Promotion Req: two to three week waiting period, participation, & set contribution criteria
Perks: Partial Bank Access
Rank 1 - Recruit
Promotion Req: two week waiting period & set contribution criteria
When dealing with alternate characters, I would only allow players to bring in one. What got you into trouble was from promoting his five avatars.
Some people have no motivation other than to be *******s.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Either way this should be clearly addressed to prevent this from happening to other fleets, my only other option is we would be forced to leave the fleet, create a new one and start over. Which won't happen OR leave the fleet all together and combine forces with another.
Sad, but inevitable, even with new fleets starting, I can only imagine how some of the smaller fleets than us are handling this.
This should be seriously addressed, we should not be able to continue to have this player to stay to create this type of havoc. I also realize this was a mistake for us to promote him, but overall there has to be a more sustainable way to prevent this type of abuse from happening.
1. joining a fleet you could have somebody senior pull a stunt like this and I don't want to deal with that drama.
2. If I ever controlled a fleet NOBODY but me would have boot authority. Maybe invites and recruting, but NOBODY but me would have boot authority. Stops this horse TRIBBLE.
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No that is not the way it works, when any rank 7 demotes another rank 7 it prevents any further rank 7 promotions or demotions. This means only 1 rank 7 can be being demoted at any given time, so if he has alts his alts have 2 weeks to "rescue" the one being demoted and then they have to start the 2 week process all over again.
sounds like they did and that's the problem. they demote one and he logs in and repromotes.
NFW would I give any one player the ability to do that. the fleet founder should be the ONLY person to promote others to that level. MAYBE one other
With ANY level of resistance, the place turns into an unending warzone of mutual bootkicking.
Regardless about how I am treated by others, I would never-ever wish anything like this upon anyone. Before I purchase something from someone's fleet store, I always ask the fleet admiral for permission. Fleet owners and fleet members invest so much money, energy, and time into building bases.
"Star Trek" fans should be above this type of stuff.
I'm an officer in a large multi-fleet group. We have many officers, and we monitor them to make sure they're all useful and doing well.
Well, as it happens, one of our fleets has a worthless Rank 7. He's got two toons. Which means he can simply rescue himself.
GG Cryptic. You've made it absolutely impossible for us to police ourselves.
I don't understand. Perhaps you are misunderstanding the system. Just because he has two toons in the fleet doesn't mean he can rescue himself, it just means you have to use two toons to kick him.
This thread has become a string of people who misunderstand the system blaming cryptic for problems they don't actually have.
Originpi, I believe you are incorrect about your belief. Here is what was in the release notes from August 15th when this change went live on Holodeck:
Fleet Leader Adjustments:
If there is a Single Leader of a Fleet, and that Leader has not logged in for 30 days, that Leader is considered Inactive.
If a Single Leader is inactive, a new Leader is automatically promoted:
The Member being promoted must be online to become new Leader.
The new Leader gets a pop up telling them they just became the new Leader.
The new Leader is not Provisional - they are full Leaders with full Kick/Rescue privileges. They can initiate a Kick if they wish following Ruleset 2 below.
Any "non-flagged" or "non-provisional" Leader can initiate a "Kick" on another active Leader.
A 'Kick' lasts 2 weeks.
If you are flagged as "Kicked", you cannot use any Fleet Powers.
Any "non-flagged" or "non-provisional" Leader can remove a Kick. We call this a "Rescue".
Only one Kick can be in progress at a time.
No members can be promoted during a Kick.
Provisional Leaders:
New Leaders are considered Provisional for 2 weeks after they are promoted to Leader.
Provisional Leaders have all Leader Powers except Kick or Rescue.
Provisional Leaders can be kicked instantly by any "non-flagged" or "non-provisional" Leader.
The Fleet Creator is not considered Provisional when the Fleet is first formed. He or she is a full Leader with full Kick/Rescue privileges.
Here is the link to the release notes: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=11915781#post11915781
The way I read this is once 1 of the leaders is flagged as "kick"/"demote" or "promote" no other fleet leader actions can be taken against any other fleet leader until the "rescue" has happened or the 14 day cycle has completed.
Original Join Date: Jan 2010
Sorry to say but your dead wrong. The way the system works is if any rank 7 demotes another rank 7 toon it puts the fleet into lockdown. You cannot demote any other rank 7s, not with another rank 7 toon, not with another rank 7 account, there is no way to demote any other rank 7s period. During the 2 weeks the demoted toon can be rescued by any other rank 7 toon, including one on the same account. If it is the entire process must be started again.
No, you're the one who doesn't understand this system. Cryptic put no thought into it, so it's understandable that many people won't realize how stupid it is.
Demoting a rank 7 member places the entire fleet in a sort of lockdown state that prevents any further demotions of promotions. And any other rank 7 can "rescue" the demoted leader. So if he has two toons, it becomes absolutely impossible to remove him, since he can simply rescue himself. We've tested this and we know how it works.
We'd be willing to eat two weeks of paralysis to demote this guy, if it respected accounts rather than characters. But nooo.
Okay, just to clarify first, before going off on how this person has "robbed" you. You are talking about the fleet stores, right? The ones your fleet runs projects for to create provisions so ANYONE WITH PERMISSION can BUY from the stores using THEIR OWN DILITHIUM AND FLEET CREDITS? Not the Fleet Bank, where you put stuff for all to share?
If you mean the Fleet Bank (and I don't read your message as saying that at all) then this is another example of one players' greed hurting other players' game.
On the other hand, as it seems you are talking about the Fleet Stores (provisionary) them the answer is simple. This player has done nothing wrong. This player has grinded (ground? I think ground is better)) out enough dilithium and clearly donated enough to fleet projects to have earned sufficient fleet credits to purchase whatever the hell they want. It's what fleet provisions are for, to have stuff for your players to buy. Could they have been a little more open about their intention to buy out the whole store? Probably. This, I agree, would have been the "nice" thing to do. Just a quick "Hey guys. I have my eye on kitting my ship out with a load of stuff from the fleet store, any objections?" would have been "nice". But they didn't have to do this, and you don't HAVE to kick them for it.
Solution, run some more provision projects to restock the store and ask that all players send a tell/fleet message before buying up everything so a provision project can be run to restock ASAP. Based on the fact that this player bought up your whole fleet store I can assume one of two things.
1. He contributes a tonne to have earned enough fleet credits to buy out the whole fleet store. Sounds like someone worth keeping around to fill fleet projects (especially the provisioning ones). Or...
2. Your store was barely provisioned and they bought what little there was. Run more provision projects.
I may not be popular for this viewpoint, but I just get the impression that this thread quickly went from helpful and sympathetic to "Cryptic needs to sort this" a little quickly.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
In short unless you have a second rank 7 toon, or there is someone else who is still rank 7 that can help you, you can't.
Was your break longer then a month? Because if so, then this might actually be your fault. The game will automatically promote the next highest rank active member if the current leadership is inactive for a month. (I myself have taken command of two fleets in this way.)
R.I.P. Leonard Nimoy
All other members get apprentice and they get the very basics.
there is no fleet hierarchy and there is no chance for promotion beyond journeyman.
While I have friends who play I would not allow them any special rank . Now behind the scenes they can ask for anything they want and special items etc...as they are friends .
This eliminates any friends who become foes etc.....
Too many chiefs ruin the tribe anyways.