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Can we just call PvP dead and end it?

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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I guess the KDF Is finished in this game when the leader of the largest kdf fleet is trying to get people to move to another game. So if a couple hundred hobo players follow you to star citizen what becomes of the kdf presence in sto?

    the kdf doesnt need hobo any more than hobr did. in fact, sto would be a better place if one hobo in particular would just dry up and blow away.
  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Hmmm....about the fewer veterans playing - could it be not so much PvP dying as transitioning to a different audience, a different type of average player? More casual players who play a game every once in a while as opposed to the veteran who practices and works on team tactics and focuses almost exclusively on PvP? And who don't go on the forums?

    Just a thought.

    After all, other games like Star Citizen would understandably cater towards the more hardcore PvP players, leaving the more casual players as the majority.

    Edit: Derp, I meant casual players who don't go on the forums.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    scurry5 wrote: »
    Hmmm....about the fewer veterans playing - could it be not so much PvP dying as transitioning to a different audience, a different type of average player? More casual players who play a game every once in a while as opposed to the veteran who practices and works on team tactics and focuses almost exclusively on PvP? And who don't go on the forums?

    Just a thought.

    After all, other games like Star Citizen would understandably cater towards the more hardcore PvP players, leaving the more casual players as the majority.

    That's death to me.

    This game recovered from losing a lot of vets just before f2p, but to me it won't recover from another loss of them. It's already a niche gametype that is punishing to new players.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ivantomdisplayivantomdisplay Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    the kdf doesnt need hobo any more than hobr did. in fact, sto would be a better place if one hobo in particular would just dry up and blow away.
    This is not a place for such conversation. While I agree with you to some point, we are here discussing pvp. I have seen exactly 2 hobr players in matches last month. Maybe we are different timezones, who knows. Anyways, if we move to star citizen, it will further degrade kdf as a pvp fatcion. Not that devs are interested, or care.
    [10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
    Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
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  • mustafatennickmustafatennick Member Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    deokkent wrote: »
    PvP hardcore players in sto are a handful. STO will survive their loss, or will gain new ones if the old ones are gone.

    No it really won't

    The more players that are getting sick of the various problems grows there's no coming back this time
    ----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
  • redsnake721redsnake721 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    Before someone pounces on the "you can buy a key with dilithium/ec" thing. Keys are bought with Zen and all Zen in this game has to be bought in some way. The only exception to this is the 500 stipend lifers get but even then it's 18months before they actually get that for free.

    Also when looking at big numbers and sample sizes you can take chances to be absolute, especially if you're the ones setting the odds. For the most part a lot of these ships have about a 0.5% chance to drop from a box, which gives the $200 price tag.

    Make no mistake the lock boxes make money hand over fist, I dread to think how much the JHAS promotions make.

    1 day to go till I get GW2...stupid slow British Internet.


    I own every Lockbox and Lobi ship in the game every Uni console and DOff and Hybrid weapon and have not opened any lockboxes.
    For example the new carriers advanced Lobi option. It costs 800 lobi. There is no way im going to use keys to open all the boxes it would take to get 800 lobi.
    I just go on the exchange and buy the ship for 100 mil EC. Same with everything else. It's all on the exchange.
    EC is so easy to make. Not to boast but by the end of the month I should hit the 1 billion EC mark. Now making lots of EC is a game in itself and as it is in real life it takes money to make money. But once you get to the 250 mil EC mark its not hard to double that in a few months that then double that.
    But to comment on the topic at hand most of these players that are accused of being P2W most likely did what I did and got their ships with EC rather than opening 100's of boxes. But it's a two sided coin. People like myself need the obsessive gamblers to open the boxes to get the stuff and then sell it on the exchange. I also need them to buy my keys to open the boxes to sell the stuff I want to buy. It's a vicious circle. It's sad but when ever Cryptiv releases a new Doff or ship or lockbox players like me make a killing. Just last month before the avenger came out I bought about 15 Fleet modules. I caught them selling one night for 4.3 mil EC each. The day the Avenger came out the price jumped to 10.8 mil each. And I'm right now stocking up on keys for the next lockbox. They day it hits keys will jump to over 2 mil each as everyone scrambles to get the new consoles and weapons and ships that the PVP comunity will no doubt hate. It's sad but the way the company makes money works for them but its counter to making PVP work.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    It's already a niche gametype that is punishing to new players.

    And the lack of real difficulty (as oppose to artificial) is a punishment to the more experienced players, I mean, go find a piece of pve content that requires the player to do more than shoot at the target for an extended period of time and maybe move a little to find a more advantageous position.

    I'll save you the hassle... there isn't any.

    If elite NPCs put up a playerlike fight rather than being greater damage sponges that require more defence on your part then I think the more experienced players would probably stay around longer as only the storylines would get old, as it is the shoot at this target for a few seconds before it dies, move to the next, rinse, repeat gets old very quickly, give the NPCs abilities and a decent AI (which they can) and no two runs would be the same and bringing skill counters to an STF for example would be worth doing. Even better this would by effect lower the bar to pvp as you would learn how things work by playing pve, rather than the current play pve, get stomped in pvp, complain about how screwed pvp is, go back to pve, get bored, stop playing.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Can I have all your stuffs?
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • redsnake721redsnake721 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    You want to have a blast at PVP with how they game sits now?

    Start an ALT. Get it to the minimum level to be able to PVP. The Tier 3 queue's are a blast. No cheese no OP lockbox ships or a2b. None of the stuff that makes players hate to queue. The entry level PVP Queues are really fun.


    The issue is most players level past this point every quickly. I would be nice to have queues that are based on ship levels and classes. You go to say Starfleet Academy, go into one of the holodeck rooms and launch battle simulations where you get tier I, II, III, IV ships with stock white gear and you choose the console layout from tier specific white gear. You get photonic Boffs of your choice and then lauch the simulation vs other players. Granted it would just be F vs F and K vs K and so on but it would be skill vs skill no cheese no P2W. Everyone on the same gear/ship/ability level. Only teamwork and skill to determine the outcome.
  • mightyleptonmightylepton Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    That's death to me.

    This game recovered from losing a lot of vets just before f2p, but to me it won't recover from another loss of them. It's already a niche gametype that is punishing to new players.

    Snog is right though. Everytime this game was on its worst condition ever, pve or pvp wise, vets were the ones that retained the infinite knowledge of this game, and experience.

    Everytime a vet decides to leave, a part of this game dies and its directly affecting the level players in this game.

    The repercussion from this game going free to play still takes its toll till todays date. (more childish and immature, even more stubborn community that simply refuses to learn from the oldies)

    Well in the case of the OP i doubt it will matter.
    Read the book of the Rihannsu.
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    As one of the newer players in the game (only been around about 6-7 months), I am appalled at how badly the game is balanced for the pvp community.

    It is only because I am a hardcore PvPer/achiever that I have even stuck around this long. As it is I am starting to suffer from serious boredom/burn out.

    I dont even consider myself a pro, there are so many people in this community that can literally school me in those arenas, but I also go into other systems of the game and tend to be in the top tier there (stfs and so on).

    Why is the curve so steep here? Why is there so much disparity between skill and gear?

    A couple weeks back I almost swore off PvP forever when the latest exploit started coming to light. Wont share it on the forums so others dont pick it up and proliferate it, but I am sure many reading this post will know what I mean.

    All I really want to know, is why is being good at this game (and this game in PARTICULAR) completely dependent on how much gaming/exploiting you know about?

    its truly frustrating to me. Learn to fly better or learn to "hax" better?

    =/ its stupid man.
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The Tier 3 queue's are a blast. No cheese no OP lockbox ships or a2b. None of the stuff that makes players hate to queue. The entry level PVP Queues are really fun.


    This times a million ^

    i loved the hell out of both ground and space PvP when I was leveling up my first toon. When I got to VA my entire world as far as STO was concerned was shattered at just how broken endgame pvp is. (Stuck with it and got to where I am now, but jesus H christ... that was too much effort just to pewpew effectively)
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    does the damn forum work yet?

    1 thing about power creep here, it needs to be earned, 1 way or another. each new addition is a complexity multiplier, and until you have quit a bit of that stuff, your at quite a bit of a disadvantage. but, a perception of the game that can only be gained after hundreds of matches, that can still be the most powerful thing.


    but is this all a price to high for pvp competence? well, at least its a mirror of real life. how many competitive sports are easily picked up by anyone interested in them? none, only the best of the best of the best even play on a professional level. it takes a lot of work to get to that point.

    its the same thing in game. at least you dont have to sweet, just sit on your TRIBBLE and click and press buttons.


    pvp isnt dead at all, but like everything competitive, you need to earn your place. you could argue that kdf pvp is near its last legs though
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Yeah a big problem with PVP is the range. Low-level PVP is a lot of fun because you never run into a wells or a bug ship with a bunch of high-level rep passives and top-level consoles etc. And none of that stuff is even needed, you could get rid of player level and Mk level gear entirely and the game would be way better off. Easy to say, hard to do though--nobody wants to lose their Mk XII [acc]x3 guns or consoles
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    does the damn forum work yet?

    1 thing about power creep here, it needs to be earned, 1 way or another. each new addition is a complexity multiplier, and until you have quit a bit of that stuff, your at quite a bit of a disadvantage. but, a perception of the game that can only be gained after hundreds of matches, that can still be the most powerful thing.


    but is this all a price to high for pvp competence? well, at least its a mirror of real life. how many competitive sports are easily picked up by anyone interested in them? none, only the best of the best of the best even play on a professional level. it takes a lot of work to get to that point.

    its the same thing in game. at least you dont have to sweet, just sit on your TRIBBLE and click and press buttons.


    pvp isnt dead at all, but like everything competitive, you need to earn your place. you could argue that kdf pvp is near its last legs though

    wtf, i just made this post, how the hell is it inserted in the last page? forums are bonkers
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    test? TRIBBLE forums
  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    And the lack of real difficulty (as oppose to artificial) is a punishment to the more experienced players, I mean, go find a piece of pve content that requires the player to do more than shoot at the target for an extended period of time and maybe move a little to find a more advantageous position.

    I'll save you the hassle... there isn't any.

    If elite NPCs put up a playerlike fight rather than being greater damage sponges that require more defence on your part then I think the more experienced players would probably stay around longer as only the storylines would get old, as it is the shoot at this target for a few seconds before it dies, move to the next, rinse, repeat gets old very quickly, give the NPCs abilities and a decent AI (which they can) and no two runs would be the same and bringing skill counters to an STF for example would be worth doing. Even better this would by effect lower the bar to pvp as you would learn how things work by playing pve, rather than the current play pve, get stomped in pvp, complain about how screwed pvp is, go back to pve, get bored, stop playing.

    This post reminds me of what DCUO did a while back. DCUO has a block and lunge system, where you can block attacks, interrupt them, and so on. Learning these mechanics was a very important thing if you wanted to PVP. The only issue was, DCUO didn't really teach these mechanics much at the start.


    One day the they revamped the tutorial. They finally started teaching new players the basics of blocking and interrupting attacks. To work with this, every enemy in the game got an upgrade. They don't sit and do basic attacks like in STO anymore. Every enemy, even the lowest levels, perform weapon combos, power casts, blocks, and interruptions. This made it much easier for an upcoming player to get into PVP since they learned the mechanics while in PVE.


    If Cryptic would make the AI like DCUO, it would help a lot of players in learning to counter these abilities. They should come up with a database and put it on the main homeworlds. It could give descriptions of the powers, their counters, stats, ETC.
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Dead schmead...oh noes...it requires effort to find a fun game. Oh the humanity...the 21st Century humanity of not wanting to put any effort into anything.
  • eisenw0lfeisenw0lf Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    ashkrik23 wrote: »
    This post reminds me of what DCUO did a while back. DCUO has a block and lunge system, where you can block attacks, interrupt them, and so on. Learning these mechanics was a very important thing if you wanted to PVP. The only issue was, DCUO didn't really teach these mechanics much at the start.


    One day the they revamped the tutorial. They finally started teaching new players the basics of blocking and interrupting attacks. To work with this, every enemy in the game got an upgrade. They don't sit and do basic attacks like in STO anymore. Every enemy, even the lowest levels, perform weapon combos, power casts, blocks, and interruptions. This made it much easier for an upcoming player to get into PVP since they learned the mechanics while in PVE.


    If Cryptic would make the AI like DCUO, it would help a lot of players in learning to counter these abilities. They should come up with a database and put it on the main homeworlds. It could give descriptions of the powers, their counters, stats, ETC.

    I had the chance recently to talk with dev jheinig in OPvP and pretty much proposed the very same idea to him. I told him that PvP would be more accessible if NPC ships in PvE missions would work the same way as their respective counterpart for players does, which means they should field the same amount of weapon and BOffpowers, combined in a consistent and effective build. To balance things out I proposed Cryptic could heavily reduce the overall amount of enemies we face in the missions. This would also help to create a more canon feeling in STO since Star Trek was never about big battles but more about 1vs1/2/3 standoffs.

    Jheinig however answered that ultra casual players will remain their main target group and that they don't plan to ever change how NPCs work in this game. They want them to be easily destroyed en masse for instant gratification with whatever the player decides to bring into the battle, even if it is a mind numbingly TRIBBLE weapons- and BOffpowers choice.
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  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    eisenw0lf wrote: »
    I had the chance recently to talk with dev jheinig in OPvP and pretty much proposed the very same idea to him. I told him that PvP would be more accessible if NPC ships in PvE missions would work the same way as their respective counterpart for players does, which means they should field the same amount of weapon and BOffpowers, combined in a consistent and effective build. To balance things out I proposed Cryptic could heavily reduce the overall amount of enemies we face in the missions. This would also help to create a more canon feeling in STO since Star Trek was never about big battles but more about 1vs1/2/3 standoffs.

    Jheinig however answered that ultra casual players will remain their main target group and that they don't plan to ever change how NPCs work in this game. They want them to be easily destroyed en masse for instant gratification with whatever the player decides to bring into the battle, even if it is a mind numbingly TRIBBLE weapons- and BOffpowers choice.

    PVE becomes stale if there isn't anything new to it...... Casuals will get bored if the enemies don't do something interesting...... It's not like we're asking for super boss level AI on every enemy. Just give them more intelligence. DCUO is for both casuals and hardcore raiders. Casuals can easily level up through the story content. The enemies are intelligent but they don't use hope-crushing powers. Why is that so hard here?
    King of Lions rawr! Protect the wildlife of the world. Check out my foundry series Perfection and Scars of the Pride. arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1138650/ashkrik23s-foundry-missions
    ashkrik_by_lindale_ff-d65zc3i.png
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2013
    There is no competitive PvP in this game when you have people paying hundreds of dollars in gear and ships. Just accept the reality and enjoy the latest Asian grind fest brought to you.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    skollulfr wrote: »
    that complaint goes under quickly

    Um...folks looking for a game where certain things are not used...have options. If they don't want to put that effort into it, that's on them. Players have come together to avoid certain things - created a channel, etc, etc, etc. The more folks that put some effort into it (how much effort is it even, eh?) - the more active that would become...the better.

    If folks just queue up and expect it to be a fair fight...well, delusions - denial - etc...some learn, some go on and on and on....
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2013
    Um...folks looking for a game where certain things are not used...have options. If they don't want to put that effort into it, that's on them. Players have come together to avoid certain things - created a channel, etc, etc, etc. The more folks that put some effort into it (how much effort is it even, eh?) - the more active that would become...the better.

    If folks just queue up and expect it to be a fair fight...well, delusions - denial - etc...some learn, some go on and on and on....

    Except channels can take hours to put together a match. Also no rewards are provided like daily dilithium. So overall it is an inferior choice.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    macronius wrote: »
    Except channels can take hours to put together a match. Also no rewards are provided like daily dilithium. So overall it is an inferior choice.

    ^--- example of 21st Century Humanity.

    /cough

    edit: Two things...

    1) The more folks that get involved in certain channels, the faster one could get a game, no? So instead of sitting back and waiting for there to be enough folks...put some effort into getting more folks. Everybody puts in a little effort, tada - faster games - nifty, eh?

    2) If you're just doing it for the reward - well, the reward is given whether you win or lose...why not just afk it if you're just in it for the reward, eh? Cause you know, if you're looking for PvP...you're looking for PvP...if you're looking for Dil...you're looking for Dil.
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