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Why don't players want to contribute: Dilithium/Doffs/Commodities?

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  • telbasta7386telbasta7386 Member Posts: 761 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I dont know other players' reasons, but I assume they're similar to mine:

    Expense.


    Dilithium is, more or less, the equivalent of real world money (especially since so many people buy zen just to convert it to dilithium). It takes a lot of time to get, it's limited by the daily refining cap, and typically the best methods for gaining dilithium are the most boring - grinding out the headache-inducing asteroid mining minigames, running duty officer missions, or doing the same daily missions over and over and over again.

    Duty Officers, similarly, are not easy to come by. You can run recruitment every, what, 3-4 days? and it takes two days just to finish those recruitment missions, which only wind up giving you 5-6 doffs. The only other way to get duty officers is via the exchange, and people have jacked up prices to far beyond what the officers are actually worth. 50k for a common/white quality duty officer? Are you kidding me? At that rate it will take billions just to finish some of the fleet projects.

    Commodities, similarly, cost quite a bit of energy credits. Credits may be easier to come by than doffs or dilithium, but there are often other things a player wants to spend their hard earned money on than fleet projects. I contribute commodities more than anything else, but when you think about the fact that most commodity contribution projects require over a million energy credits, that's a lot of money for a casual player.



    There's also the fact that you gain less fleet credits for contributing duty officers, commodities, or dilithium than you do for contributing fleet marks. I really think that cryptic needs to raise the amount of fleet credits you get for the other types of contributions, to give more incentive and make it a little easier for fleets to get their projects done.
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  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I am a tyrant about it and anyone that doesn't follow the fleet rules is ushered out, there is simply no other way to handle it.

    If you are a greedy person, there are special projects to suck up fleet marks, another greedy person already fill it and nothing else? aww, too bad for you

    If you want to help the fleet there are fleet xp projects that require a lot of Doffs. If you are caught dumping your fleet marks in these projects and running, cya.. we don't need you sacrificing the fleet for your own personal gain.

    This is how it has to role because cryptic has made it this way, and they haven't done anything meaningful to stop it.
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  • peter1z9peter1z9 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Because everything in the game is so EXPENSIVE. Then there's all the grinding out the multiple reputation systems (we'll be up to four pretty soon). And there's also that annoying fact that everything of at least a decent quality costs dilithium. Lastly there's that stubborn old Dilithium refining cap that comes up to bite everyone in the rear-end.
    "Our Bugs are working as intended" - Cryptic
  • edited October 2013
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  • linyivelinyive Member Posts: 1,086 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    How is any fleet supposed to progress its starbase if people are only willing to part with Fleet marks?

    It's seems that most Star Bases have come to a grinding halt or slow crawl - but already I talk to many people in many fleets and no-one except a tiny tiny few want to actually put in anything but fleet marks.

    That leaves the bulk of the "real" work to just a few.

    Now we have a new holding coming - which will add to the problem again.

    So how do you get people to put in the massive amounts of dilithium/ EC /Commodities /doffs that are required when you move past T4 ??

    Don't come in this thread with insulting comments like: recruit more people - that in itself is difficult and another full time job that many people don't like. Or: "starbases are long-term projects" sorry most players DON"T think long term and are looking around for right now - and why shouldn't they - this is a game - not a life or a career!!

    So what is the solution - or are Starbases just another waste?

    With Many fleets offering free access to T5 bases for gear - why build out your own? After a few hundred thousand fleet marks you have enough for any gear a toon could need.

    So Solutions? Ideas?
    *nods*

    As many of us have been trying to tell Cryptic, the grinding aspects of "Star Trek: Online" have burnt many players out. People have consolidated their efforts to the reputation system. Many players are also having trouble with progressing through the reputation system. Instead of leveling four or five characters, some players are only moving two to three avatars.

    Players have burnt out.

    *shrugs*

    Second, some fleets are giving away access to tier four and five. If you have enough dilithium and fleet credits, you can now gain instant access to certain gear. You just have to ask around.

    Since Cryptic doesn't want to solve the game's issues, some nice souls stepped forward to help others out.

    Bless everyone who stepped forward to help others.

    *thumbs up*
  • bazagbazag Member Posts: 375 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Best way to get DOFFs for Starbase?

    Complete all the star cluster exploration doff chains, and complete the Support Colonization in XX repeatable. On crit you get a specific purple doff and a refugee, on success you just get refugee.

    Use refugee in Asylum missions... Use the "Exchange Officer" Doff missions from the Personnel officer at SFA or KA to make all the newly gained DOFFs into multiple whites.

    Might have to space civilian doffs for room.
  • pappy02upappy02u Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    My Fleet doesn't have a problem of filling the projects. We have a couple of members who are trying to maintain the highest credit count. They are throwing everything they can in order to stay on top of the contributor lists.
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    How is any fleet supposed to progress its starbase if people are only willing to part with Fleet marks?
    Obviously, they aren't. Cough up, slackers.
    It's seems that most Star Bases have come to a grinding halt or slow crawl - but already I talk to many people in many fleets and no-one except a tiny tiny few want to actually put in anything but fleet marks.
    Just like in the real world, 80% of everything is caused by 20% of everyone.
    So how do you get people to put in the massive amounts of dilithium/ EC /Commodities /doffs that are required when you move past T4 ??
    You assign responsibilities. Make it ONE person's job to do a specific thing. And usually, that means YOU.
    So Solutions? Ideas?
    There are three ways to get something done: Do it yourself, pay someone else to do it, or forbid your children to do it.
    studly479 wrote: »
    The fleet I am in has guidelines laid out for how much fleet credit you must earn before you can purchase fleet gear. If you want the good stuff you have to contribute simple as that.
    And this is exactly how not to do it if you run into this kind of problem, because then people will rack up pay only in low-value items that reward high FC for cost, and your projects all stall. Meanwhile, some final guy gets to be the unsung hero by filling in the hard stuff...and getting jack for it.

    How it works in my fleet is that everyone gets stuff, but those who didn't take initiative are starved for FC and have to put up with me calling them SLACKERS constantly.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Something I wonder, regarding the folks who suggest buying doffs with fleet marks: Can you make a profit by turning around and burning them in fleet projects, or will you be operating at a loss (ref: dilithium provisions from your ship's replicator)?
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  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    At a loss.
  • lordvalecortezlordvalecortez Member Posts: 479 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    At a loss but sometimes you just got to do what you got to do. It's not that bad as it cost 500 FC and you get back 300 so you only lose 200 each time you do it. It's still a loss but only 40% not 100% like provisions.

    I'm in a small fleet of 18~ some people and I do 80% of the contributing. This means I actually have the FC to burn to do huge injects of Doffs when needed. That being said I'm probably not your average contributor as I'm building a base more or less by myself.

    I get around the Dil issue by playing the market for tiny tiny profit margins.
    Cheers from Antonio Valerio Cortez III, Half-Celestial Archduke of the Free Marches Confederacy.
  • futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Doffs and commodities because they're designed to be a pita to contribute, dil because it's designed to be a pita to obtain, and is too useful for too many other things.

    Also because contributing dil for a 1:1 return on fleet credits is a bit like being punched in the head.
  • jetwtfjetwtf Member Posts: 1,207
    edited October 2013
    I just wont run provision projects until there are zero left and people start complaining. then run one after the current and queued projects are completed. No provisions and they have to contribute to get provisions buy anything.

    Another good way to get contributions is by having prizes for the top 10 contributors, top 5 and number 1 contributor. Throw an FSM or something equal or more in value for top prize, something around 3 million worth for 2-5 and 1.5 mil worth for the last 5. Random other items to other contributors as well.

    Set aside a bank for the items thats locked to admin only being able to remove items and donate something every now and again and when it's full the contest is run. Setup the bank where the first 10 slots are for the top ten and then the rest of the slots with random usefull items to be given to everyone under the 10, could be a purple MK XII DHC or something else for the rest but even having a chance to win any item can get them motivated. To get the bank full let people donate to it but rules about the minimal quality and worth, someone may get a decent drop that they don't need may donate instead of selling.
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  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    farmallm wrote: »
    Not how I play. Since I only play a few hours per week. Due to life, family, work. It took me 2 months to build up 120k for my Vor'cha to purchase from the Dil store. Also I bought a K'Tinga from the Fleet. That sucker costed way more than the 120k I put in for the Vor'cha. Not to mention the amount of EC as well. I really wanted the ship. So I did what I had to do to get it. After this no more, its not worth it.

    So in reality unless I can use EC to contribute. They are not getting my dil since I'm using it.

    No, you just took the community's resource provisioning to get what you wanted, and now effectively give them the finger. What a way to play the game.... leeching from people and flicking them off.
  • ficrficr Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    How is any fleet supposed to progress its starbase if people are only willing to part with Fleet marks?
    Walk down Earth Starbase and you can still hear people asking for 5 to form a fleet and that you don't have to stay...So now you're in a fleet and you don't know how it's suppose to progress.
    Don't come in this thread with insulting comments like: recruit more people - that in itself is difficult and another full time job that many people don't like. Or: "starbases are long-term projects" sorry most players DON"T think long term and are looking around for right now - and why shouldn't they - this is a game - not a life or a career!!

    So what is the solution - or are Starbases just another waste?

    The solution starts with you. What do you want to do?

    You want this to be a game but also don't want it to be a career? You say that most people don't think long term but then you ask "How is any fleet suppose to progress".

    Not trying to be mean but you should ask these questions before you join a fleet.

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  • reynoldsxdreynoldsxd Member Posts: 977 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Here is why:

    1.)
    Getting new doffs to throw into the Fleet Furnace is tedious and aggravating.
    2.)
    Dilithium is money. Well Zen. Dilithium is Zen. You are asking people to throw ZEN into the furnace. When Dilithium is basically needed for EVERYTHING from buying some decent gar to buying fleet gear to buying new things via zen....
    So yeah none of that compels people to part with it.... Even if you could refine unlimited dilithium...
    3.)
    the fleet credit returns in anything but fleet marks are comparatively ****ty when taking into account the difficulty and opportunity cost of aquiring that stuff.

    Dilithium has a crappy return, commodities - despite being lockbox keys essentially because they consume your EC - do give crappyty returns and the utter broken hassle that is clicking every frikkin doff and getting more doffs is just ludicrously bad.
    4.)
    EC and Dilithim, even Doffs are required for Reputation projects...


    So yeah, people are not very motivated especially if they are asked to choose between saving up for the newest lockbox/c-store/rep stuff and contributing to fleet projects.

    It is a fact that small fleets suffer greatly from this and frankly thats what you got yourself into when you begun the project.

    You cannot force people to part with valuable stuff.

    In a bigger fleet you have more people to chip in small amounts of what they "earn" and get ahead, small fleets must take more.

    So you really should think about fleet mergers...
  • thedodgehopperthedodgehopper Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    The problem is the tediousness of the task involved. Filling Doffs for instance takes a great deal of time, its extremely boring, and it requires a lot of shuffling of inventory, mails, running back and forth between exchange, mailboxes, fleet, etc. At a certain point, a player also wants to still feel like they are playing a game, and the Starbase system is like Doffing all over again, only more an worse. I've offered a solution for a long time to this, but who knows if they'll ever implement anything like it. I have seen other people mention similar. Essentially, I recommend they create a Storage or Hopper that players can feed into a base independent of actually launching the missions. In this way, if a player gets some spare white doffs they can dump them straightaway into the base, instead of storing them in mails, and letting them pile up across a number of characters to feed the base in the future. The doff system itself is clunky in regard to the Starbase because you are asked to dump hundreds of doffs a day, but we can at best store 400, and we need many of those for the other system (DOFF SYSTEM) so we can't really use all that space for the base. Additionally, there is cleanup involved in this if you're opening packs to feed the base, which is in and of itself time consuming. I've also proposed that we should be able to give green, blue, and even purple quality doffs if we want, at a higher value. So green is worth 5 of this doff credit, blue is worth 25, purple is worth 125.

    The system just needs streamlining. The real problem is they've made the system unfun. Making a supergroup base on city of heroes was fun... its extremely boring in this game. My fleet has gotten rather far along, both KDF and FED, but I'm fully aware of the tediousness of the system.

    I've thus far only discussed doffs, which are probably the most annoying element. The direct credit-sink portion is also rather tedious though. Purchasing 50 torpedoes, 1000's of Commodities, Traces, and Samples is just droll. Doing it day in and day out, is excessively droll and also highly expensive. I realize they did it to create an EC sink, but its also an ugly time sink that pulls you away from actually playing what I consider the REAL part of the game. While the efforts are most certainly worthwhile, it boggles my mind that they couldnt' have made these sinks at least paired with fun, particularly making it a lot more like the Supergroup bases were in City of heroes. From what I understand Champions Online is similar to City of heroes when it comes to bases, but I don't have enough experience to speak on that. I do however know that the same company made all three games, and some of those same people are still working at cryptic and even work on Star Trek Online.

    So far, Starbases look cool, they have interesting artwork that we unlock worth about 20 dollars a pop, or hundreds of hours of game play, Whatever comes first. They really need to find a better way though. They need to find a way that we can customize our base, so that your fleet base doesn't look exactly like mine. Sure we share common tools, common models, etc, but I do think distinctives would be nice. If someone has an Orion focused fleet, maybe make it so their starbase can look more Orion? Klingon? Klingon. etc. The way the system works now, its just a lazy cash grab as far as I'm concerned. We're asked to pay 10's of 1000's of dollars worth of material to make a base that we have absolutely no real input in the designing of, and that's just sad. So that's my biggest gripe about the fleet system. I don't mind as much that its a longterm labor of love, but that we get really very little input into its actual design. If they took the time to do something about that, I think people wouldn't feel it to be such a terrible timesink... maybe.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Any sink can be an issue with fleet's, dilithium is needed for almost everything and is limited per toon per day for refinement. EC's is also an issue with some looking to buy from exchange, doff's can be also a problem because of the EC or FC costs (FYI make friends with Rom toons they gain doff's twice as fast) for me it's a pain because almost every doff recruitment gives me un-commons a lot of the time and not the common's I was after. It can be discouraging to have to ask member's to contribute, but to force them can also be a negative. People will come and go, become burnt out grinding or may be needing those resources to get their toon(s) up and off the ground in rep and gear. So take it how it comes, and reward those you actually see contributing and find new ways to help those who will contribute, but need the resources at the moment to get in a comfort zone to not need those resources so much. They as member's are just as big a part of the fleet as it's leader(s) are, so make them feel like they are and not some pack mule with the only goal in the fleet is to advance it just because they need or have to.
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  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Cryptic has introduced the concept of different quality dilthium crystals: purple, green and gold or something like that.


    I think it would help a lot if we could refine an additional 2000 dilithium per day.
    But that extra refinement results in less pure dilithium grades.

    Those grades are not good for powering a starship, but can be used for trade on a starbase and reputations.
    So if you overgrind your 8k dilithium you might feel ok with converting another 1000 that are only good for base and rep and finally 1000 that are only usable on the base.
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  • ztstrikeztstrike Member Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    1) Dilithum, because I can only refine 8k a day!

    2) Doffs, because they are expensive, and useful.

    3) Commodities, because it adds up to be a lot of credits that you don't get a good return for.
    -ZT Strike
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  • farmallmfarmallm Member Posts: 4,630 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    tekehd wrote: »
    No, you just took the community's resource provisioning to get what you wanted, and now effectively give them the finger. What a way to play the game.... leeching from people and flicking them off.

    Nope cause I only give to projects where I can do with EC. All my Dil is for my personal needs. At the time, the fleet has stalled out with lack of Dil. My self personally restarted their projects that needed dil for them. Finishing off several projects in the process of getting the ship. Currently that fleet is stalled out completely. As they need everything. I don't have Fleet marks to give them. So that fleet is not a healthy one at this time.

    Unless you know the situation don't jump to conclusions.
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  • stuart1965stuart1965 Member Posts: 691 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    To get anywhere in a fleet,you need a dedicated player base,that thinks of progression in a fleet.My fleet has completed everything and is at tier 5 in all areas.
    I think one of the reasons we have done well,is because its adults who use real money to get what they want and to help the fleet progress onwards.
    I have noticed that its kids in this game that hold things up,because all they want is an easy time of it,with just shootem ups and none of the work involved.
    Also,many kids do not have an income,so they can not use real money in this game.
    Sadly this game is not free to play if you want to get anywhere at reasonable speed.
    If players stuck to free to play only,then it would be alot slower,and people would be TRIBBLE off and just leave.
    For a fleet to succeed,and for all fleet members to get what they want,powerful weapons and equipment,you have to work hard for it and grind to get all resources and currencies.
    There are too many freeloaders in this game,that want everything given to them free.
    Well think again freeloaders,you will not get what you want,unless you earn it by working hard in a fleet.
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I've thus far only discussed doffs, which are probably the most annoying element. The direct credit-sink portion is also rather tedious though. Purchasing 50 torpedoes, 1000's of Commodities, Traces, and Samples is just droll. Doing it day in and day out, is excessively droll and also highly expensive.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Eh the whole fleet system is what it is, it can be fun or it can be a dull boring drain!!! I do like the idea that un-common-very rare doff's should be able to be used in place of commons only at a higher trade ratio (and no not doing the doff trade missions either). I tend to get more un-commons than commons when recruiting for common doff's. Would be nice if I could get rid of some of them faster than once a day!!! Besides selling them and buying commons I mean, which I never buy commons EVER when they are free.
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  • erhardgrunderhardgrund Member Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Well maybe people are just sick of it and need the recources for themselfes to get the good stuff from other grind like the reputations or the exchange.
    Its getting a bit out of hand. And alot of players i had the chance to talk to about fleets seems to agree that there isnt much of a point.
    Sometimes its just easier to farm ec and buystuff from other fleets that are more advanced already. Even if they have to somehow cough up the fleet credits in the first place its still easier to farm those than the extra dill cost and commodities and so on.

    The new holding wont be different. Especialy when there isnt much of value in it. Those tac consoles , if they stay the way they are wont sell like crazy imho. Those new cores offer little in terms of power so they are rather too specalized.
    The only thiung the new holding has to offer is a 6th doff station wich alot of players will just switch fleets to get as soon as some fleets unlocked it and selling it for ec.

    All those grinds are becomming more and more boring and cumbersome, even more currencies over and over.

    I mean i understand they want people to spend money to speed it up a bit but the offerings are not geting better imho.
    How about polls or competitions for ingame ideas.

    Cryptic should at some point stop making new universal consoles and put the new powers into weapons, warpcores, devices and so on.
    How much more uni consoles do they want to do. Were allready flooded with them.
    And at some point when its getting pointless to field ships without 5 tac consoles your left with 4 or 5 console slots with 1 or 2 already taken for some 3min cooldown stuff nobody uses after the new and shiney wears off.
    Cruisers ftw!
  • xapocalypseponyxxapocalypseponyx Member Posts: 577 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Being a late comer to a large fleet, these are pretty much the only things I can donate. Like everyone else though, I can tell you why it sucks.

    Dilithium: What can I say that hasn't been said. But, you know what would help? If the most important commodity in the game gave something better than a 1:1 return on credits. A freaking Stem Bolt gives 8:1. Not to mention Fleet Marks 50:1. With Dil usually being the only thing left open for donation, it's a slow and painful way to earn credits.

    As brought up in another thread, if Cryptic would at least GREATLY increase the FM requirements for certain projects, it would make the pathetic return on Dil a little more bearable for those who will donate it. I don't mind helping with fleet progression. I'm just tired of getting TRIBBLE rewards for it.

    Doffs: Is there anything more boring? I would prefer the mission "Watch Paint Dry". Like many people here, I also live in the real world. My time for STO is rare and precious. I have ground up and donated more Doffs than I could ever remember. But god damn, do I wish I was doing something else. And again, TRIBBLE rewards for the effort.

    Suggestion - how about a mission in which we shoot things in the face and get Doffs as a reward? Say, rescue a crew from hostiles and get x amount of their (white) Doffs to throw into your fleet's grinder.

    Commodities: I have no problem with this. I think the main reason they don't fill as fast is most people will want to travel to where ever sells the cheapest.

    TLDR: You get Fleet Marks by PLAYING the game. You know, what we all used to do. You get a 50:1 return on FMs. For everything else, you either give up some very precious commodity or you do some mind-blowingly boring task, as if you were still at work and you get simply pathetic rewards in return. That is why people don't want to donate said resources.

    EDIT:
    So Solutions? Ideas?

    I didn't address this, did I? I think the solution is simple. Raise the rewards to match the value/effort of the donation.
  • saxfiresaxfire Member Posts: 558 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I'm not paying because I don't need anything. I'm fine with what I have and if they want to contribute, sure.
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  • amberdzamberdz Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Because my fleet leaders keep doing stupid things and don't seem to understand concepts like budgeting or a spreadsheet. Prioritizing the dil discount on the mine instead of elite cores. Queuing up T5 tac projects when we're just 5k xp away from Elite Fleet Shields. Loading up the dumbazz cosmetic projects when there are facility upgrades in need of resources. If someone wants my resources they need to prove they're going to use them responsibly, or else no.

    I completely agree with this. It's like the stupid fleet dilithium mine. I work like mad to get everything filled every day for this. I work on it so we get the discounts, not only for the other projects, but so members get the dilithium discount when buying from stores requiring dilithium. I do not do this so the mine can be turned into another dilithium sink. I have told them that if they turn it into a dilithium sink I won't bother helping with it, so NO stupid special projects that take a fortune of dilithium and give NO points towards completing the mine. It is after all a mine and a mine does NOT need to be pretty. Almost no one hangs out at the starbases and we do all of the stupid dilithium sink projects there, there is no logical reason to waste fleet member's dilithium on making a mine pretty.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I like making the mine pretty... but I do wish the rewards were better
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