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The difficulty of elite ground stf's. Virtually impossible to do.

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  • carasucia83carasucia83 Member Posts: 568 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    iconians wrote: »
    Something else that needs repeating. STO has more Tac players than any other class. Largely because people see 'Tactical' as the 'Warrior' class. This is to be fully expected, but the thing with Tactical officers is in the name. Tactical.

    You aren't supposed to be cannon fodder or a dumb jock. You're supposed to use tactics and strategy and help your team.

    But they aren't Rambo. They're a fifth wheel. A skilled tactical officer will see the rest of his team as the real weapon to use against the Borg, and will take steps to maximize the team's efforts on the ground.

    Redshirt Goofus slaps on the fire team kit, grabs a sniper rifle, and spends the entire time knocking Borg back from the rest of the team which takes even longer to kill.

    Redshirt Gallant uses Squad Leader, Grenade Satchel, or if using Fire Team -- using a split beam rifle or the Omega Force Autocarbine to debuff the entire group of Borg and/or buffing the entire team around him.

    Redshirt Goofus thinks using Tactical Initiative takes precious seconds away from using his single-target sniper rifle, which already takes a while to kill a single Borg on elite.

    Redshirt Gallant uses Tactical Initiative every time it comes up because he knows it helps the entire team, and engineers and science officers love having their powers on cooldown.

    Redshirt Goofus thinks he's Duke Nukem and the rest of the team are civilians he has to prevent from dying, so he has to kill everything before they harm the engineers and science officers.

    Redshirt Gallant recognizes that an Engineer deals more damage than he ever will, and that a Science Officer can tank harder than he can while providing crowd control to make everyone's job easier. His job is to debuff the Borg with the Fire Team kit so the Engies turrets and drones chew them up and spit them out, and so the science officer can more effectively heal everyone or drop AoE pain from a distance.

    Exactly. Most players say ground is broken. It's lolGround. But one thing is for sure, there is a heck of a lot more synergy between the classes on the ground than in space. the right kit combinations of 5 sci, 5 engis or 5 tacs all at the same skill and experience levels will get the job done just as fast as eachother. Not necessarily true in space.
    "So my fun is wrong?"

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  • mcduffie369mcduffie369 Member Posts: 787 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    This should help you gain a little insight with the ground...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YvlJo8u-vQ&feature=youtu.be
  • ericphailericphail Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    The real problem with ground is pugs.

    I agree KAGE is the easiest (and thus the most populated and also most known, so most players are better)

    I (personally) find Infected hardest (mostly because of the boss room - I end up with only 1 other who knows what he's doing too often and my jumping is iffy at best).

    I don't play Hive Ground (buggy the few times I ran it) it doesn't matter anyway, everything in the game doesn't care about it anyway.

    The only change I would make to ground STFs would be to remove the need to unshield the core again if you die fighting the boss (it's hard enough for dodgy pugs to do it once, by about the 3rd time everyone's to injured/tired to do it right and quitting is all too common) or reduce it to 2 switches instead of three (I believe infected is the only one that is absolutely unwinnable with only 2.)

    Actually on that note: has anyone 2 manned any of the grounds (even on normal)?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I know it's possible to solo Armek, I doubt you could solo the rest of that STF, but 2 man might work. The Borg turrets kinda self-destruct if you know how to do it just right.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Ground STFs in general are impossible becaue of PUGs, people that don't communicate in a game play that requires teamwork to advance.

    Other than the occasional 1 hit deaths elite STFs are very easy.

    Knowing how to play ground is crucial, how many people take the time to learn it? Few, they just rush in and shoot, never learning or improving. How many people in the fleet say they hate ground combat? Most, because they are lazy.

    Also, don't listen to bad ground players giving you advice, anyone recommending the Maco set has no clue whats going on, its a terrible ground set.
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  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    iconians wrote: »
    Redshirt Gallant uses Squad Leader, Grenade Satchel, or if using Fire Team -- using a split beam rifle or the Omega Force Autocarbine to debuff the entire group of Borg and/or buffing the entire team around him.
    Grenade Satchel and Squad Leader? Grenade Satchel is the worst kit in the game due to the shared cooldowns between all grenades. Squad leader is outclassed by Security Protocols in the debuff department, the only thing good about Squad leader is the unique presence of Rally Cry. Each class has three useful kits and three weak kits. Science has Medic (Tank), Analyst (Utility/Debuff), and Physicist (Damage). Engineers have Enemy Neutralization (Damage), Equipment Technician (Tank), and Fabrication Specialist (Utility). Tactical has Fire Team (Damage), Security Protocols (Tank), and Operative (Utility/Stealth Attack). A good solid ground STF team consists of 1 tank, 2 utility, and 2 damage via any of the above combinations.
    iconians wrote: »
    Redshirt Gallant recognizes that an Engineer deals more damage than he ever will, and that a Science Officer can tank harder than he can while providing crowd control to make everyone's job easier. His job is to debuff the Borg with the Fire Team kit so the Engies turrets and drones chew them up and spit them out, and so the science officer can more effectively heal everyone or drop AoE pain from a distance.
    Take a look, the damage from Tactical officers is much higher than the damage from some turret spawned by Engineers. The above youtube video is rather old, but it demonstrates the raw damage potential of tactical officers very well. Engineers can get close to similar levels with minefields on the enemy neutralization kit, but as you can see, Tactical officer damage is considerably higher than an engineer for the majority of the time. Engineers require their targets to fall in a minefield, tactical officers can apply their damage instantly and from long range. Science officers can also rack up very impressive numbers, but that's another discussion entirely.
    nicha0 wrote: »
    Ground STFs in general are impossible becaue of PUGs, people that don't communicate in a game play that requires teamwork to advance.

    Other than the occasional 1 hit deaths elite STFs are very easy.

    Knowing how to play ground is crucial, how many people take the time to learn it? Few, they just rush in and shoot, never learning or improving. How many people in the fleet say they hate ground combat? Most, because they are lazy.

    Also, don't listen to bad ground players giving you advice, anyone recommending the Maco set has no clue whats going on, its a terrible ground set.

    The MACO ground set is terrible? Now this is news to me. I mean, I've been playing STFs for almost two years now, and I've never had problems with this set. The MACO set is a great shield tanking set, the Adapted MACO is a health tanking set, and the Omega set is a damage dealing set. Each has their place in an STF. If you are geared out correctly, the ground STFs are a cakewalk, even with a bad team.
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
    --->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Ya, you are a bit (way) off on your ground skills there. Security protocol for tactical? Are you serious in that is one of the "good" kits for tacs? It is awful, tac toons don't tank.
    Fire team is solid damage output with durability, team leader is tanky but is a team tank/buff kit which makes the tactical player sub par. Operative is bursty damage, ideal for taking out tough enemies, close combat does crazy dps and you are far more durable knocking enemies down constantly then using some lame buff for resists.

    A tac won't beat a good engineer on the ground, enemy neutralization does way too much damage, an engineer using the fabrication kits has no clue what they are doing. Tanking on the ground is a funny thing, you don't do it, you'd spend so much time healing shields every single hit you'd never do any damage.

    The tachyon harmonic shield bug makes analyst a liability if the offline condition procs for sci characters, I'd rather not use it.

    The maco set is the worst of the 3 sets, the team buff is laughable, the small shield heal could only be used as part of a engineer healing set, but its tiny and not sufficient. The omega set is the damage and tank set, over 100% dodge is your tank, exploits and crits are your damage, if you aren't using it then you should be using a KHG set with a specific kit and skill set for its bonuses (damage and health tank)
    Delirium Tremens
    Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
    Nothing to do anymore.
    http://dtfleet.com/
    Visit our Youtube channel
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    A whole lot of overanalysis in this thread of something so ungodly simple.

    just have a damn plan. thats all it is. setup means f--- all if you just do the objectives right.

    yeah sure we can run 2x bomb engies for lulz, but we dont have to. we dont have to rip out on tacs because they are often lulz, and tanking is possible by any profession if they try.

    "x is better than Y" annoys me in that regard. just play your prof and dont be an idiot and in most cases youll do fine.

    Tactics/Experience > Setup.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Yeah, I've played Fabrication enough to know how to do it right. The easiest way to fail as fabrication eng is to just dump your turrets on the ground. you need to carefully place them for TWO reasons.

    1: AoE skills, sure Borg don't use grenades, but they use plasma pulsewave attacks.

    2: turrets do friendly fire damage when destroyed. If they're stacked on top of each other, they'll do almost as much damage to each other when they blow as enemies.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited October 2013
    Yeah, I've played Fabrication enough to know how to do it right. The easiest way to fail as fabrication eng is to just dump your turrets on the ground. you need to carefully place them for TWO reasons.

    1: AoE skills, sure Borg don't use grenades, but they use plasma pulsewave attacks.

    2: turrets do friendly fire damage when destroyed. If they're stacked on top of each other, they'll do almost as much damage to each other when they blow as enemies.

    Plasma pulse wave?

    I know the heavy tac drones can use a heavy bolt blast but that is single target same as on the Borg tactical prosthetic but more powerful, which Borg use a pulse wave something from Into the Hive? I haven't played that one in months.

    Also if you want Instant remod you can always use the Pre-sequenced Remodulators from Defera, irrc they were 8k etc for 20 on the exchange. making them pretty nice to use with the Fractal frequency Remodulator if you need to remod in a hurry like in boss room of IGE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    A whole lot of overanalysis in this thread of something so ungodly simple.

    just have a damn plan. thats all it is. setup means f--- all if you just do the objectives right.

    yeah sure we can run 2x bomb engies for lulz, but we dont have to. we dont have to rip out on tacs because they are often lulz, and tanking is possible by any profession if they try.

    "x is better than Y" annoys me in that regard. just play your prof and dont be an idiot and in most cases youll do fine.

    Tactics/Experience > Setup.

    This.

    /tencharacters
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    kapla1755 wrote: »
    Plasma pulse wave?

    I know the heavy tac drones can use a heavy bolt blast but that is single target same as on the Borg tactical prosthetic but more powerful, which Borg use a pulse wave something from Into the Hive? I haven't played that one in months.

    Also if you want Instant remod you can always use the Pre-sequenced Remodulators from Defera, irrc they were 8k etc for 20 on the exchange. making them pretty nice to use with the Fractal frequency Remodulator if you need to remod in a hurry like in boss room of IGE.
    I really don't remember... I'll have to pay attention to that next time I do an STF(or play foundry vs Borg).
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    nicha0 wrote: »
    Ya, you are a bit (way) off on your ground skills there. Security protocol for tactical? Are you serious in that is one of the "good" kits for tacs? It is awful, tac toons don't tank.
    Fire team is solid damage output with durability, team leader is tanky but is a team tank/buff kit which makes the tactical player sub par. Operative is bursty damage, ideal for taking out tough enemies, close combat does crazy dps and you are far more durable knocking enemies down constantly then using some lame buff for resists.

    A tac won't beat a good engineer on the ground, enemy neutralization does way too much damage, an engineer using the fabrication kits has no clue what they are doing. Tanking on the ground is a funny thing, you don't do it, you'd spend so much time healing shields every single hit you'd never do any damage.

    You have a lot to learn about STO ground.
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I played the SWG ground game (mostly PVP) for the full 8 year run. But after some time away from it, ground is kinda rough for me again. I got so used to "submarine" warfare in STO space, it really threw me off.

    I am competent at ground here, and can handle jumps ok now, but I am horribly out of practice and really only did ground for the accolades and to experience them.

    Im not scared to play ground elites, by any means, I just tend to be the weakest member of the team in that respect (i have good gear, but I dont do it regularly so I lack practiced experience)

    Most of the platforms in Infected Elite do not require jumping, you can actually just run across them.
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited October 2013
    stuart1965 wrote: »
    I know there are some here who are gifted and can succeed at anything.
    I find these elite ground stf's,ridiculously far too difficult.
    Cryptic,How about making these elite ground stf's alittle more achievable please???
    Bring the difficulty down abit to make it abit easier.

    Some great advice in this thread. Regardless of your beliefs, the three basics always apply for elite STF's:

    1.) Have a decent group of players for any elite stf. Pugging is gambling. Join channels like elitestf, or publicelitestf to create groups; and,

    2.) Know the plan and discuss it in advance. Each elite STF has a strategy or multiple strategies that work when the team works together. LEARN THEM by going to Youtube - there are literally hundred of examples to watch.

    3.) Have at LEAST Mk XI common gear and a decent build. And by decent build I mean something that maximizes one energy type and allows you to support your group effectively. There are HUNDREDS of build examples over at stoacademy.com.


    My Two Bits
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    ericphail wrote: »
    The only change I would make to ground STFs would be to remove the need to unshield the core again if you die fighting the boss (it's hard enough for dodgy pugs to do it once, by about the 3rd time everyone's to injured/tired to do it right and quitting is all too common) or reduce it to 2 switches instead of three (I believe infected is the only one that is absolutely unwinnable with only 2.)

    You can finish Infected Ground with only 2 players. You have to activate a console and immediately roll to the next one while teammate activates second one. It is hard to do and takes practice, yet it works really well.
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    3.) Have at LEAST Mk XI common gear and a decent build. And by decent build I mean something that maximizes one energy type and allows you to support your group effectively. There are HUNDREDS of build examples over at stoacademy.com.


    My Two Bits

    By maximize energy type you mean always have 2 different types so you can switch once they adapt to the first, right?
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    nicha0 wrote: »
    Ya, you are a bit (way) off on your ground skills there. Security protocol for tactical? Are you serious in that is one of the "good" kits for tacs? It is awful, tac toons don't tank.
    Fire team is solid damage output with durability, team leader is tanky but is a team tank/buff kit which makes the tactical player sub par. Operative is bursty damage, ideal for taking out tough enemies, close combat does crazy dps and you are far more durable knocking enemies down constantly then using some lame buff for resists.

    A tac won't beat a good engineer on the ground, enemy neutralization does way too much damage, an engineer using the fabrication kits has no clue what they are doing. Tanking on the ground is a funny thing, you don't do it, you'd spend so much time healing shields every single hit you'd never do any damage.
    buccaneerdtb said it well, you have a lot to learn about ground combat. He does a lot of ground PvP, as do I, we know what we are talking about here. Tactical officers can tank very well when set up correctly. In the case of Security Protocols kit, it's possible to solo Armek (100% alone, no support from the team) without resorting to melee. I and other players could even do this back in Season 6, before the reputation passives made Ground STFs so much more of a cakewalk. The current optimal setup for security protocols is 3x Shield Distribution Officer (Weapon Malfunction with Draw Fire), 1x Dominion Advisor (Removes all debuffs from self and team via overwatch), and 1x Biochemist (-10 second cooldown on Hypos/Power Cells/Shield Charges). Combine that with the Adapted MACO set and the Gambling device, you will be able to tank any of the Elite STF content. That said, don't activate draw fire in the Infected Ground Elite final fight area right as you enter the room, if you do your team will not be pleased.

    Very few people use the Squad leader kit because anyone using this kit becomes the "one minute tactical officer", the kit has the longest tactical ground kit cooldowns in the game. If you don't have 3 copies of tactical initiative, you aren't contributing much to the team. You say the close combat kit does "crazy DPS", alright, you run at me with close combat while I am on fire team. After that, you can run at me with close combat while I am in security protocols. The kit's weaknesses will become very clear.

    Engineers in the fabrication kit can be a huge asset in a team setting. A well placed fabrication specialist can be the deciding factor in a ground PvP fight. They are also huge assets in infected ground elite for the long range portion of the fights. In cure and khitomer, they would probably want to go with enemy neutralization or equipment technician, but it would be a fine choice for infected ground. Colony Invasion, Federation Starbase Incursion, Nukara Prime, and Mine Trap are also very good places to have a fabrication specialist.

    As for the engineering vs tactical officer scenario, it would depend. Skill being equal between both players, it will usually end up in a 50/50 split for a fire team tactical officer against a enemy neutralization engineer. There is nothing to really say about your comment claiming that tanking on ground isn't worth it. That's like saying using Tactical Team in space is pointless.
    nicha0 wrote: »
    The tachyon harmonic shield bug makes analyst a liability if the offline condition procs for sci characters, I'd rather not use it.

    The maco set is the worst of the 3 sets, the team buff is laughable, the small shield heal could only be used as part of a engineer healing set, but its tiny and not sufficient. The omega set is the damage and tank set, over 100% dodge is your tank, exploits and crits are your damage, if you aren't using it then you should be using a KHG set with a specific kit and skill set for its bonuses (damage and health tank)
    The Tachyon harmonic proc knocks shields offline for 10 seconds. The only NPC in the game that can't be killed in 10 seconds is the Tholian project leader. It's not a bug, the proc does exactly as described on the tooltip, shields are restored after the proc expires.

    The MACO shield heal is not worthless, an engineer can get over 1,400 shield health out of the MK XII version because it scales off of the Repairs skill. The Omega set is not a tank set, it's a damage avoidance set. There is a huge difference between the two concepts. The point of the Omega set is to avoid taking damage, hence the two piece stealth bonus and the bonuses to self/team dodge rating. In a 1v1, the tactical officer with the MACO set will take longer to kill than the tactical officer in the Omega set. The Omega set will help him deal more damage while avoiding damage, but a science medic will take out the Omega tactical officer in short order if the tactical officer does not land enough high damage shots fast enough. Whereas a MACO set tactical officer, the science officer will have trouble keeping his shields down unless they are running the borg medic kit for tachyon harmonics at the price of one health heal.
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
    --->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I really don't remember... I'll have to pay attention to that next time I do an STF(or play foundry vs Borg).

    I believe the attack you are thinking of is Forced Plasma Bolt, which can deal about 1200 damage on Critical hit (before resistances).
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
    --->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I believe the attack you are thinking of is Forced Plasma Bolt, which can deal about 1200 damage on Critical hit (before resistances).
    Does it look like a pulsewave or do AoE damage?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Does it look like a pulsewave or do AoE damage?

    No, it's a single target shot. The borg will usually us that ability right before switching to their AoE plasma bolt scattering shot (I can't remember the name the the moment).
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
    --->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    No, it's a single target shot. The borg will usually us that ability right before switching to their AoE plasma bolt scattering shot (I can't remember the name the the moment).
    does the AoE attack kinda look like the secondary fire of a full-auto rifle? that might be what I was thinking of. Honestly I'm usually too busy hacking them to pieces to pay attention to which of their attacks do what.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • badname834854badname834854 Member Posts: 1,186 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    A few additional comments/tips.

    1) Fire team is a VERY effective kit provided you do a playstyle that takes advantage of it! (read: Crit-heavy offense). With fire team you can have almost 100% uptime with some sort of firepower buff if you rotate them correctly. Fire on my mark is an excellent team assist and debuff.

    2) Crit is KING in ground combat. Seek weapons with some sort of [CritD] or [CritH] modiifer. [Dmg] = [lol]

    3) Pulsewaves are your friend; excellent burst damage and good crowd control with the secondary. Can also set you up for a good exploit.

    4) Take advantage of the expose/exploit mechanic! If you're tac consider the trait that auto-exposes a target when grenades are used.


    I eschew stf gear completely now; Fleet Armor, Fleet Shields and VR mk xii weapons of the exchange are VERY capable. (Provided money is not an issue)
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