Fleeing out of range in a 1v1

usshannibal

A few weeks ago i probably met the most exotic opponent i have ever seen. he challenged me in a 1 on 1 and thereafter we engaged each other in arena.

i used a fleet dhelan with my rommy tac, a standard escort build nothing special while he utilized a jem heavy escort carrier, a torpedo boat with warp plasma and which was capable of reaching an enormous velocity. I estimate his speed almost as fast as a risian corvette and for that reason it was hardly possible to attack him still less to pursue him. I dont know how he was able to be as quick as a falcon, he might have used epte 3 or somerhing like that.

though his strategy was remarkable and quite difficult to counter with a normal build without trac or skills in my own speed: he came into range waited until my APO ran out, then he dropped his transphasic mines and breen torp. and spammed much plasma onto the map so that it got more difficult to follow the JHEC. right after he dropped his mines he was at least 15-20 km out of range yet and he was hiding between and inside the asteroids so that he could plan his next assault/recover himself when I attempted to do a strike with APA whatsoever. i have to say he used the terrain quite effectively. The match took place in briar patch.

the problem with this tactics was that he was at least half of the match time out of fire range and that increased his survivability ofc. As i asked him why he keeps fleeing out of battle range he explained that it would be part of his strategy. nevertheless the match ended 4:5 forthe JHEC. Now the question is if it was legit how he executed his maneuvers or rather not?

I have heard that some guys say that would be fine considering fleeing in 1v1 pvp and in turn other guys say "no that isnt ok, because each time he escapes fire range it is a foul and will be counted as a kill for you since i would have been able to kill him when he stayed in range".

Now i want to know how you consider this case in your view?

ursusmorologus

I'd find it lame and annoying but its not using any P2W items so its legit

bitemepwe

Did the two of you decide on any rules? Like no Flee-ies or no X consoles?

If not then while an annoying tactic it is still a valid one.

I would call it a stalemate with points to your favor towards a technical knockout.
Unless he could also near-kill you, which does not seem the case.

ivantomdisplay

It is unwritten rule that if u break 10 km from your opponent, it is considered as a foul, ie kill. At least by what I have witnessed or take part in it.

ursusmorologus

No such thing as unwritten rule.

thissler

ursusmorologus wrote: »

No such thing as unwritten rule.

The first rule is that you can't write it so it is sort of hard to prove exactly what the rule says.

I think I'm familiar with the rule ivan is speaking of. I agree in toto with his estimation of the unwritten rule and I furthermore believe that it goes on to state the following:

2) If you battle cloak it is considered a foul because like, if you didn't I could have killed you.

3) If you ambush someone out of battlecloak that is also a foul cause like, if you were fair you wouldn't use such shenanigans and I clearly would have killed you instead. Cause like you should be within 10k of each other at all times and like know what the other guy is doing.

I'm running out of ****** to pour into this particular bucket. And I'm fresh out of stupid. I know right? ME? Run out of STUPID? Who thought that would have happened.

Well for any of you that are still working on PROVING there's a TANKING trinity in STO or GLOBAL COOLDOWN for ****s sake, have some time, maybe you could share some of your wisdom on the unwritten rules of Pro Duellists.

The next one would be 4. So start your list with 4 and not 1. KK?:D

masterkeychnk5

If you think 'fleeing' out of 10km arc is a sign of a kill or foul play, loss or w.e. you're probably deluding yourself lol.

Rules are there to be written, if it was not written down then anything is allowed. Whowever gets most kills wins.

I could care less about 1v1's these days, Ive done probably 1000 of em, some day some guy used all the new p2w toys in a 1v1 and he won, and I said gg.

Peace.

baelogventure

I've got some stupid for you...some REAL stupid...

aaaaannnnd /stupid on

4. Using FBP is like, totally unfair to Alpha Strikers since like, they can totally kill themselves instead of the other person actually killing them.

5. Using any sort of DoT is totally unfair, because why should I have to pack Hazard Emitters to wipe DoTs when I can use Tractor to hold you still?

6. Using Polarize Hull to get out of my Tractor is unfair

7. Being tanky enough to survive my Alpha is like, really unfair, because no one survives my Alpha, you must be cheating or something

8. Using Jam Sensors to completely throw off my Alpha Strike is like, such a total noob cheese tactic, gawd.

9. You can't Aceton Beam me! Not only does it apply a DoT it totally negates all of my Alpha damage!

10. How'd you get such long time on the Heavy Graviton Beam? No one actually puts points into THOSE Science Skills, hacker!

11. WTF, Trico Mines inside of the Warp Plasma, OMFG U NOOB that's SO CHEAP!!

/stupid off

How's that?

usshannibal

bitemepwe wrote: »

Did the two of you decide on any rules? Like no Flee-ies or no X consoles?

If not then while an annoying tactic it is still a valid one.

I would call it a stalemate with points to your favor towards a technical knockout.
Unless he could also near-kill you, which does not seem the case.

all right, hm no we didnt arrange any rules, so he might have had the right to flee all the time as soon as i put him under fire. Further before i started the match I also didnt expect to face such a special type of opponent so I thought it wouldnt be necessary to set up any rules^^

aquitaine985

Seems totally legit to me. He's clearly got a plan and is acting it out. If there was an agreement beforehand about distance then i'd call him out on it.

ussultimatum

I'd say it should be treated like any challenge match.

Lay down ground rules beforehand, then abide by those rules.

dontdrunkimshoot

duals that arent between 2 pretty stranded tac scorts are mostly a joke. if its between anything else, or its some kind of niche build, it gets real stupid real fast.

it should be obvious that you dont intentionally disengage and run in a duel, your strategy is invalid if you break that rule. sometimes fat cruisers can get a bit separated during duals, or gravametric anchor kills your turning and you got no choice but to fly strait off in 1 direction, or stop and have no defense score.

warbirds are a tricky thing to call. so much of their ability comes from constantly cloaking and ambushing. without that they are just escorts missing a bunch of power. id allow BCing in a dual, as long as you dont run out of range first, and you decloak like as soon as possible, no staying cloaked so long red alert ends. with so many anti cloaking measures, VM, CPB, GW, TB, you can really set yourself up for failior if you cloak in front of someone and were counting on getting away.

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roxbad

usshannibal wrote: »

"foul"

lol

"I'd kill you in a fair fight!"

"Well, that's not much incentive for me to fight fair, is it?"

usshannibal

patrickngo wrote: »

his move was totally legit, and strategically counter-able. Cloak Up and be the hunter. the situation's no real difference from a KDF taking a BoP up against a Fed in a Risan Corvette-he's going to use speed and distance to break weapons lock, you need to use stealth and patience to force the initiative in your favour and make him burn up the (likely) consumables he's burning to keep that speed up. (My guesses would include engine batteries and/or Deuterium surplus-obtainable from the "Military Contract" mission in Eta Eridani...)

The so-called 'unwritten rule' favours static punching bag builds, just like 'no cloaks' favours Fed ships over all other types.

By staying de-cloaked you were giving him the initiative-you were, in short, playing his game instead of making him play yours.

ahh you mentioned a good point there, i forgot to tell you about the use of battlecloaks, regarding 1v1. As i have done 1 on 1 battles in the dhelan warbird i never utilized the cloak in case if I meet someone else being able to use cloak aswell. Since it would be pretty much pointless when 2 cloakers clash and consequently it may lead to a long-lasting and never- ending fight. For this reason i dont use it in 1v1.

usshannibal

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

duals that arent between 2 pretty stranded tac scorts are mostly a joke. if its between anything else, or its some kind of niche build, it gets real stupid real fast.

it should be obvious that you dont intentionally disengage and run in a duel, your strategy is invalid if you break that rule. sometimes fat cruisers can get a bit separated during duals, or gravametric anchor kills your turning and you got no choice but to fly strait off in 1 direction, or stop and have no defense score.

warbirds are a tricky thing to call. so much of their ability comes from constantly cloaking and ambushing. without that they are just escorts missing a bunch of power. id allow BCing in a dual, as long as you dont run out of range first, and you decloak like as soon as possible, no staying cloaked so long red alert ends. with so many anti cloaking measures, VM, CPB, GW, TB, you can really set yourself up for failior if you cloak in front of someone and were counting on getting away.

I see what you wanted to mediate, a good point and argument.

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rylanadionysis

baelogventure wrote: »

i've Got Some Stupid For You...some Real Stupid...

Aaaaannnnd /stupid On

4. Using Fbp Is Like, Totally Unfair To Alpha Strikers Since Like, They Can Totally Kill Themselves Instead Of The Other Person Actually Killing Them.

5. Using Any Sort Of Dot Is Totally Unfair, Because Why Should I Have To Pack Hazard Emitters To Wipe Dots When I Can Use Tractor To Hold You Still?

6. Using Polarize Hull To Get Out Of My Tractor Is Unfair

7. Being Tanky Enough To Survive My Alpha Is Like, Really Unfair, Because No One Survives My Alpha, You Must Be Cheating Or Something

8. Using Jam Sensors To Completely Throw Off My Alpha Strike Is Like, Such A Total Noob Cheese Tactic, Gawd.

9. You Can't Aceton Beam Me! Not Only Does It Apply A Dot It Totally Negates All Of My Alpha Damage!

10. How'd You Get Such Long Time On The Heavy Graviton Beam? No One Actually Puts Points Into Those Science Skills, Hacker!

11. Wtf, Trico Mines Inside Of The Warp Plasma, Omfg U Noob That's So Cheap!!

/stupid Off

How's That?

Lololololol

voporak

Going out of range or battlecloaking to stop from dying is one thing. I see that as fine in 1v1.

Running away or battlecloaking and never showing up again or for a while is another thing.

webdeath

Honestly, the whole thing of crying because some one left weapons range is silly to me.

Same goes for people complaining about Battle cloak/Cloak.

If you can't adapt to those measures, and you didn't agree to some thing before hand, well.. then its your fault for not agreeing to something ahead of time.

As far as Gentleman or unsaid rules.. Again if you didn't agree to it.. then it was not a rule being used.

:rolleyes:

playhard88

usually when i play 1vs1 i set up only 1 rule, once the fight start, don't run away. Simple as that, is kinda lame pop evasives for run when u are about to die, the duel have no sense.

rylanadionysis

As a serious post, whatever happened to the idea of doing whatever it took to reduce your opponent to 0 without doing so yourself.

I am really confused by threads like this.

If there is an exploit or something truly broken at play, thats one thing, but if its "using what youve obtained" then "rules" relating to it are pretty dumb.

That being said, I still believe pvp gear should be limited to mark x white and below.

>_>

I really wish there was more skill in the game and less lolgear.

But thats a topic for yet another ******** thread.

buccaneerdtb

This reminds me of how the ground guys want to duel. They duel an engineer or science officer with a tac. They unload full alpha strike and if you survive they cloak and retreat to wait for all their timers to recool. That leaves you no alternative (On ground cloak is far worse as traits render it uncounterable without the weak Nukara set)) but to sit and wait for the next alpha from cloak. (they usually kit swap to cheat extra buffs while out of combat) It isn't so much a duel as a chance to be a punching bag. The recool timers were put in for balance and this is just another way to avoid them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel

The definition mentions matched weapons and rules.

Many 1 v 1 are not duels, but rather attempts to pwn others by taking advantage of the games imbalances.

timezarg

I always find it funny when people challenge BoPs to 1v1 matches, obviously meaning 'you fight me without the battlecloak'. The battlecloak is more or less what keeps the BoP alive and relevant in PvP. There's not much point in flying a BoP if you're gonna abstain from using the battlecloak at any point, not unless you're able to get your resistances and defense up to a ridiculously high level.

Demanding a BoP stop using the battlecloak is basically like say 'you sit there and let me shoot you'.

virusdancer

timezarg wrote: »

Demanding a BoP stop using the battlecloak is basically like say 'you sit there and let me shoot you'.

Which sounds like most 1v1 challenges regardless of the ship.

Why you use Beams and fly out of my arc? Sit there, let me shoot you.
Why you use T4 New Rom? Sit there, let me shoot you.
Why you use Jam? Sit there, let me shoot you.
Why you use BtW? Sit there, let me shoot you.
Why you use...whatever? Sit there, let me shoot you.

mimey2

Was this guy using Yellowstones?

inkrunner

I have a Corvette designed to pull a similar kind of stunt.

Needless to say, it's very effective at getting away.:cool:

You know what they say: "11km distance is the best defense."

(They probably don't say that, but I do.:P)

majortiraomega

buccaneerdtb wrote: »

This reminds me of how the ground guys want to duel. They duel an engineer or science officer with a tac. They unload full alpha strike and if you survive they cloak and retreat to wait for all their timers to recool. That leaves you no alternative (On ground cloak is far worse as traits render it uncounterable without the weak Nukara set)) but to sit and wait for the next alpha from cloak. (they usually kit swap to cheat extra buffs while out of combat) It isn't so much a duel as a chance to be a punching bag. The recool timers were put in for balance and this is just another way to avoid them.

I've actually seen fewer and fewer players using the Operative kit since the launch of Legacy of Romulus. The reason for this isn't just one thing, it's the result of the trait revamp (everyone has peak health), the Tier I Nukara health bonus, the damage buff to engineering minefields, the medical vanguard trait, new engineering duty officers, and the Nukara Shattering Harmonics set. It is almost impossible right now in a 1v1 situation to one hit kill a medic that is paying attention. Not to mention that Tricorder Scan debuffs cloak for a reasonable duration. As for Engineers, Legacy of Romulus significantly improved the Enemy Neutralization kit. Fuse Armor actually stuns, mines can't be dodged by cats simply leaping over them, and the new romulan duty officers vastly improve the kit's performance.

As far as kit swapping goes, it's still that one fleet and their "allies" doing the majority of the kit swapping. Once that bug is fixed, I have a feeling we will be seeing a lot less of them in the ground queues.

buccaneerdtb wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel

The definition mentions matched weapons and rules.

Many 1 v 1 are not duels, but rather attempts to pwn others by taking advantage of the games imbalances.

That is quite true for space. There are so many Romulan captains willing to 1v1...but only if their opponent is flying a Starfleet vessel. Some people wish to win PvP regardless of the cost, even it it requires using every broken mechanic they can fit into their build to ensure victory.

hurleybird

In a 1v1 you pretty much need a no fleeing rule, or it becomes impossible for either person to land kills. Like other people have been saying though, 1v1 isn't really important or meaningful with the possible exception of similarly built escorts -- this is a team game after all.

s7ike

To be honest if you don't have the skill to maneuver out of your opponents arc so you just "Run Away" is foul play. You can do the same damage while letting your opponent have equal opportunity. This is a game after all, if you do not make if at least somewhat fun for your opponent you will not have one later.

webdeath

:rolleyes:

It is not running away..

It is tactial retreating.. GOSH!