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The Other Side of the Cheesiness Coin
scurry5
Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
Quite recently, I was running in the queues, when I went up against some players who were apparently from the same fleet. Now, things were hellishly spammish - SS doff, Elachi console, TIF, danubes, all 4 sci, the works. Things were so bad the highest number I saw on a respawn counter was 3 - 12 seconds behind the clock.
Now, I doubt they were particularly familiar with PvP, due to the fact that they were pretty squishy.
Now, something I feel is cheesy used by many players in what looks like a premade is a berserk button for me. I jumped in my tacrom and queued up again. Sure enough, I ran into what seemed like the 4 of them again. Their non-fleet player was AFK, and my pug managed to beat them. I started crowing in OPVP chat, despite them being outnumbered.
In short, I acted like an *******.
When you think of it, players who aren't familiar with the debate over cheesiness might simply think that an ability is good, so use it. What may be partially justified qqing over spammage might seem fine to us, but to them it just looks like "you can't handle it, so you cry".
And this, I think, may contribute to the image that many non-PvPers seem to have about PvP in general.
Anyways, this is partially an apology to those chaps. Whether justified or not, I acted in a horribly arrogant way. That was a lousy attitude to take.
And on the other note, when newer players use something some may call cheesy, could it be because they don't know yet that something doesn't work as intended/is frequently frowned upon? If so, how do our complaints/QQs look to them, and may these contribute to the bad image of PvP? Just something we could think about.
In fact, if we still manage to gain victory despite them running these skills, is this then partly to blame for the general population reacting so negatively to nerfs? After all, they are still killed pretty easily despite using these supposedly 'OP' abilities. How can those abilities then be called OP?
Perhaps how we could look at making PvP more popular is to more often put ourselves in the shoes of the average new player, and think about how to make a good impression.
Just a little ramble from the mind of your local PvP rodent.
Now, I doubt they were particularly familiar with PvP, due to the fact that they were pretty squishy.
Now, something I feel is cheesy used by many players in what looks like a premade is a berserk button for me. I jumped in my tacrom and queued up again. Sure enough, I ran into what seemed like the 4 of them again. Their non-fleet player was AFK, and my pug managed to beat them. I started crowing in OPVP chat, despite them being outnumbered.
In short, I acted like an *******.
When you think of it, players who aren't familiar with the debate over cheesiness might simply think that an ability is good, so use it. What may be partially justified qqing over spammage might seem fine to us, but to them it just looks like "you can't handle it, so you cry".
And this, I think, may contribute to the image that many non-PvPers seem to have about PvP in general.
Anyways, this is partially an apology to those chaps. Whether justified or not, I acted in a horribly arrogant way. That was a lousy attitude to take.
And on the other note, when newer players use something some may call cheesy, could it be because they don't know yet that something doesn't work as intended/is frequently frowned upon? If so, how do our complaints/QQs look to them, and may these contribute to the bad image of PvP? Just something we could think about.
In fact, if we still manage to gain victory despite them running these skills, is this then partly to blame for the general population reacting so negatively to nerfs? After all, they are still killed pretty easily despite using these supposedly 'OP' abilities. How can those abilities then be called OP?
Perhaps how we could look at making PvP more popular is to more often put ourselves in the shoes of the average new player, and think about how to make a good impression.
Just a little ramble from the mind of your local PvP rodent.
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Hey, is that your mom again?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Pretty much.
This is why in general, I let almost everything slide in the queues.
The only ire I have are for the worst of the worst.
Even then I usually just save it as ammunition for mechanics discussions on the forums, there's zero benefit (to me) from getting into a pissing contest in zone/OPvP about it.
Well that, or make a very specific point of farming any particular bad form players and ignoring their teammates if necessary.
Anyway, yes, I think a lot of the part-time/casual PvPers hear "X is powerful" and load a copy of it - without going any further in the thought process.
You bring up some excellent points, Scurry. I have some points I wanna mention to...but I need to think of them first. :P
Heh, that is true. I could make a post about Aceton Beam being really powerful right now, and almost guarantee that there would be at a decent-sized influx of people using it all of a sudden due to that.
I picked up the Dark Poo Matter/Baseball Console recently. Many folks are going to laugh at that console since it was changed, but I use it like I mentioned I envisioned it being used when they mentioned the changes...well, I use it that way primarily.
See somebody's about to unload on an ally - can't nuke them, heals on CD, etc, etc, etc - hit them in the head with the Baseball as a distraction for a moment. Somebody's being persistent in wanting to kill wee Willard, well, if I've used the other 9000 escape mechanisms already...time to go over 9000!
Some folks would even /facepalm my giving up a Tac console for it - Willard's a Support'varo more than anything though (and he's still got +25% base (2pc KHG) and +25% non-base (2pc T'varo & Cloak) to go with the three remaining +28.1% base consoles)...
"well, I use it that way primarily." - comes to the part where you said...
Because there are certain combinations of things being used out there that will cause me to go, "Oh #!@%, this #!@% is getting real - these #@^%&! want to play?" At which point, in combination with things other players do - it can be used very offensively rather defensively to set up a guaranteed kill against a non-Rom.
At which point, zone often tends to turn to folks griping about a part of what happened - that did the least damage - as if that was the thing that was their problem during the death...
...and you realize that it wasn't getting real - they're not really aware of what they're doing or what's going on - and like you said, they're likely in that crowd that may have just seen something or heard somebody mention it as powerful so they used it.
Does it change what they were doing? Sure does - because now they feel like they were cheesed, they're going to want some vengeance (sound familiar?) - and they'll probably pick up something else, not really know how or when to use it - will just spam it along with some others that are feeling that way...
...they'll tick somebody off in turn, who will in turn tick them off more, and the cycle continues.
Ka-ching! Ka-ching! Cryptic wins...everybody else loses.
I wrote a thread about Tacs Crying Vs my Sci...
I was the one crying in the end.. I was the one who made a trollish thread...I was the one who got offended.
It boiled down to me getting sick and tired of having KDFs Loading up and alpha strike, APB, CRF, TT and whatever other buffs they use, De-Cloaking, POINT BLANK, right on my TRIBBLE... and unloading Anti Proton hell into my shields and hull.
This tactic DRIVES ME NUTS....
If you survve, and manage to get the edge in the batle, then they'll slink off like the LOSERS that they are..and cloak into the darkness of space, and try their little trick again.
It would literally drive me nuts..
So I said F it... I'm going to build the most powerful FBP'er build possible, and turn the tables on their sorry, pathetic, cowerdly tactics.
And yup, it definatly discourages this type of tactic, they try it once, and if lucky enough to survive, they don't dare try it again. But, then they have the nerve to complain about my Cheesy FBP build...
Ya know, I'm just fighting Cheese with Cheese... I never said I was a better "Captain", I never said I thought the build was fair... I just did it to facepalm other Cheesy PvP'ers..
If it works for you... If it keeps you alive in the face of cheesy tactics...Use it...their is no rule about using cheesy builds..
I just noticed, that the cheesier the opponent, the angier they get, when their build doesnt get the job done...
To me, its made the game some much more enjoyable... I can actually have the freedom to do what a Sci Captn should be doing - Healing mates and debuffing enemies, while adding modest damage.. not worrying about healing myself non stop, under fire from Pure DPS builds..
They try it once, and they forget about me...suits me just fine.
Just dont be a hippocrite...if your build is just as cheesy (if not more) then mine...quit crying... Youre doing it too !
My build was inspired to counter some of the cheesiest tactics in STO.. I would have never dreamed up a FBP build had KDFs, fought with honour, and not tried exploiting there cloaking...
Like really...you have the nerve to literally park on my ships aft section, decloaked, fully buffed, and unload Sto'Ka'Vor hell into me...then you get mad, when I don't die right away, and hit my little FBP3 button..
Get real, get some perspective.
Gimme a break...I'm just a sci, trying to stay alive.
If there was another way, sure Id use it... but, I have found no other way to counter the Decloak, backdoorstep, Burst DPS KDFs...
So what...just allow people to keep facerolling me, because I'd like to maintain some semblance of Honour... TRIBBLE that...Some of these PvP'ers will kill you by any means necessary.. You must react accordingly...never let someone convince you that your build is cheap...if it saves skin ...then use whatever means necessary...your opponent surely will.
So...KDF cloaking tactics are bad, but Romulan cloaking tactics are ok?
So er...other Sci out there...they've been forced to do the same thing?
No? Hrmmm...
If somebody's doing something, where you feel that you're being forced to do something which you feel is cheesy to counter - you might want to take note of who else plays the Career/Ships/etc that you do, and ask them what they might do. There are some extremely Evil Sci out there that could help avoid being a one-trick pony that's easily countered...by another Sci.
...I may not like the tactic, but it is effective, and I can understand why people would use it...I just don't think people should get up in arms, when there is a counter, and someone is using it..
I'm only using it for survival sake.. If there was any other way...I'd try it...but this is hands down the best counter.
Would be nice if there was no need for a counter.. but in my view I have no choice...in a way...it's almost a punishment for me, I have to keep this tactic in mind when building my captain, it takes away from my options.
But it keeps me alive in the face of a devastating tactic.. so, i'll take a hit elsewhere in the build to make sure I negate that specific attack.
It is limiting my options.. but Ill do what is necessary. I'm not going to be someones doormat, in the name of Honourable builds.
Player X is using A.
Player Y is using B.
Player X complaining about B comes off a bit silly. Player Y adapted. Player X should adapt.
Course, that goes back to both Player X and Player Y trying to find the dirtiest...oops, inflammatory...to find the most efficient means of doing away with the other player.
Thats exactly what allows me the oppurtunity to hit up FBP3 or 2
As far as the other abilities that will decloak an enemy ship...
I'm not the hunter, I'm a sci, I dont care if there is a ship cloaked next to me...
I could care less about decloaking them and disabling them with Scattering field etc...
My goal is to make Decloaker, backdoor, Bursters, pay a HEAVY price for having the audacity to try that
tactic on me...
It's my virtual b^&*$slap
Like I said, I'm not the agressor in combat, my role is to provide huge heals to teamates, and debuff the main target for my allies.
I wouldnt care if ten ships were cloaked all around me...what I do care about is delivering a huge amount of damage to someone who has the nerve to try this tactic on me...
I've died many a deaths from the decloak strike. I've learned my lesson. And won't tolerate it.
Yeah I was on your team for that fight... And man did it get ugly. Started off fine and fun, but when it was obvious our pug team was going to win, the premade pulled out all the cheese in their arsenal. Quickly our lead disappeared and we didn't get a kill after that. Obviously the premade felt they couldn't win with their superior skills and instead had to win with their superior wallets.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Not to be rude or anything, but it's hard not read that as...
"Somebody killed me. I won't tolerate that."
...which doesn't quite come off the same as...
"Somebody killed me. What can I do to try to avoid that and maybe even kill them before they kill me?"
It's the internet - it's text, so there's no tone or anything...but what you're saying comes off as angry, so please feel to correct me on that - but in the end, it kind of comes off as whining...I shouldn't die, how dare somebody kill me, killing me shall not be tolerated!
Just saying...meh.
Now hold the hell on for a second. Saying something like THAT is going too far.
I can understand being more than a little annoyed at getting vaped by de-cloaking attack, but I think you are going overboard with comparisons and I ask this nicely that you remove that particular comparison from your post, if for no other sake than your own lest it get you a warning and possible infraction.
As far as FBP is concerned. It's an a ability to help counter people that do heavy burst fire with energy weapons. What it does not counter so well is steady damage (preferably direct to hull) and non energy weapons. Who's to blame? Well try those that made energy weapons the go to for destroying anything and everything in the game.
Personally I never use FBP. Why? It's actually less useful than PO in PvE, not as useless as MES though....
On topic: Yeah I have an appreciation for what some call cheese and try not to use said consoles etc in Kerrat and PvP whenever I have.
Interestingly enough, why not have a cheesefest? No consoles allowed except cheese consoles and set bonuses. Might be fun ya know.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
You called?
Best way to kill Willard is to leave him alone long enough and he'll blow himself up.
A VM's not going to do it. Trans aren't going to do it. Still say you should talk to s7rike about his hunter-killer.
Srsly. KDF roms need similar console!
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
race x is using mk20 (available only to race x)
race y is using mk10 (max for y race)
players from race y quit playing...
This. I think anyone who complains about BoPs hitting and running just haven't played a BoP before. It's squishy on another level entirely. It's almost like flying a shuttle, except with more firepower and abilities. I can have TT1 and EPtS1 up and my shields STILL melt away under an alphastrike, and I can no longer 'maneuver' out of the way because people apparently have no problems keeping up with BoPs and their vaunted turn rate advantage. I don't really have a lot of room to stack on defensive abilities, because I have to carry a lot of attack abilities to make up for the weaknesses of the BoP class.
Almost all BoPs hit-and-run because they have little utility outside of that role. Just staying in the fight will result in you getting blasted to pieces. In arena, at least, that's a liability.
What I can't stand is when Romulan ships use such tactics, because they ARE viable outside of that role (even the bloody Fleet T'varo is viable as a straight-up escort when out of cloak). They're not the ones with paper-thin hulls and nerfed stats.
Even if Faction X has Counter A for Faction Y's Item B?
But, but...I couldn't do what I do in the Fleet T'varo in a Fleet B'rel...without those 10k+ shields for when I get decloaked and the 41k+ hull as I'm blipping about.
Heck, it's dicey as is with all the damage in the game at the moment - I watch folks in their Cruisers get hit by the right set of debuffs/etc along with some lucky procs and they just vanish...same Cruiser without those debuffs or lucky procs can ignore a handful of folks wailing away on them.
Couldn't imagine blipping around with less than 30k hull these days. It's why I stopped flying Geist (KDF Sci) in his BoP when LoR hit and rolled Willard (KDF-aligned Rem Sci).
this is why i always scratch my head when people say sci ships are weak hulled...
i tried my hand in a bop waaaaaaay back...
and actually tried (to some success) converting my fed sci build into a bop....
ah well.
Do you even Science Bro?