And so far there have been a grand total of two players that have posted their results in two different testing scenarios, both with very different results (one saw an increase to baseline, the other was all over the place with Tac Buff analysis). If this gives you the impression that it's early enough to draw conclusions, then you are grossly mistaken.
So please, don't spam the thread. Your feedback is being heard.
Bort, the baseline went up by such a small amount that I hope you didnt miss the part where I flat out said more needs to be done (at least from what i can see), because with the nerf due to the aux scale changing, you might gain 10 percent more damage outright, but youre losing crowd control and damage on lower tiers.
I would strongly recommend pushing the aux scaling back up where it was, and letting it scale to 2k ticks. What can it possibly hurt? Tactical escorts do 10 times that kind of damage in a cone of effect that can be ran twice as often as a full part/graviton specced sci. If youre worried about AOE damage being too high, I will point you directly to beam fire at will aux to bat cruiser builds and cannon scatter volley escort builds. both of which do far more damage than even a triple strength gravity well could ever match, and have twice the uptime.
When you consider that based on other analysis so far of the lesser tier skills GW1 and GW2 losing damage compared to the holodeck build... a sci captain cycling gravity wells is is going to experience a net LOSS in damage versus a net gain. We gained a little bit on GW3 but lost significantly on 1 and 2.
For the sake of Sci captains everywhere, please put the aux scaling back in and raise the baseline damage another 20 percent. It still wont match a tacscort, but it narrows the gap a bit. The current tribble build widens the gap.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
GravWells dissipating if the primary target dies, you say? Easy to troubleshoot, if so. I will investigate and verify.
It's how they currently function on Holodeck. Drop a GW on a target that will pop from the first tick - the first tick happens - the GW's gone. Like if you want to pop a minefield...oopsie.
Bort, the baseline went up by such a small amount that I hope you didnt miss the part where I flat out said more needs to be done (at least from what i can see), because with the nerf due to the aux scale changing, you might gain 10 percent more damage outright, but youre losing crowd control and damage on lower tiers.
I would strongly recommend pushing the aux scaling back up where it was, and letting it scale to 2k ticks. What can it possibly hurt? Tactical escorts do 10 times that kind of damage in a cone of effect that can be ran twice as often as a full part/graviton specced sci. If youre worried about AOE damage being too high, I will point you directly to beam fire at will aux to bat cruiser builds and cannon scatter volley escort builds. both of which do far more damage than even a triple strength gravity well could ever match, and have twice the uptime.
When you consider that based on other analysis so far of the lesser tier skills GW1 and GW2 losing damage compared to the holodeck build... a sci captain cycling gravity wells is is going to experience a net LOSS in damage versus a net gain. We gained a little bit on GW3 but lost significantly on 1 and 2.
For the sake of Sci captains everywhere, please put the aux scaling back in and raise the baseline damage another 20 percent. It still wont match a tacscort, but it narrows the gap a bit. The current tribble build widens the gap.
+1 on this comment.
On another note, good job to whomever found the GW dissapearing on enemy destruction bug. Does Tyken's Rift have the same bug?
For the sake of Sci captains everywhere, please put the aux scaling back in and raise the baseline damage another 20 percent. It still wont match a tacscort, but it narrows the gap a bit. The current tribble build widens the gap.
I agree, restoring the aux scaling would help, but I don't think increasing the baseline damage another 20% is needed. Such a change would only help players not heavily invested into Gravity Well. The old base damage was just fine, all we need back is the bonus damage from particle generators and the high aux scaling. Currently on holodeck, Gravity Well I receives +1.48 damage for every point in particle generators. Gravity Well III's tooltip receives +2.47 damage for every point in particle generators. Now with tribble, this has been standardized to +1.05 damage per point in particle generators, which is far too low. Simply restoring the aux scaling and standardizing the particle generator bonus to +1.48 should solve the concern over Gravity Well's damage.
Right now on Tribble, Fleet Mk XII particle generator consoles grant 33.5 damage per console with Gravity Well. I'd get a better damage return out of Tractor Beam I or Tractor Beam Repulsors I than I would with Gravity Well. Interestingly enough, a max specced Tractor Beam Repulsors I will deal 1286.35 (1865.2075 buffed) damage/second. A fully specced lieutenant science level ability becomes more powerful than a fully specced commander science level ability due to how small the bonus gravity well gains from aux as well as particle generators. Tractor beam repulsors can also be chained for about a 85% uptime with two copies/cooldown reduction, compared to Gravity well's 33% uptime (20 seconds up, 40 seconds down). This isn't to say Tractor Beam Repulsors needs a nerf, it doesn't, this is just attempting to show how underperforming Gravity Well will become if this change goes live.
I would strongly recommend pushing the aux scaling back up where it was, and letting it scale to 2k ticks. What can it possibly hurt? Tactical escorts do 10 times that kind of damage in a cone of effect that can be ran twice as often as a full part/graviton specced sci.
That's because one is designed for damage, and the other one is designed for control.
Do cannons pull all surrounding NPCs into a neat little ball and hold them there for chain warp core breaches?
Do cannons have an effectively unlimited AoE target?
Does GW have 'drop off' damage from range?
No.
Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
Compare GW to EWP, that's a better place to approach what GW should or should not be doing.
If we push for both GW's damage and pull, we will end up with a mediocre power that does neither well. I'd much rather see GW be really good at one aspect, with just a minor aspect of the other.
Compare GW to EWP, that's a better place to approach what GW should or should not be doing.
If we push for both GW's damage and pull, we will end up with a mediocre power that does neither well. I'd much rather see GW be really good at one aspect, with just a minor aspect of the other.
It's a Lt. Commander and Commander level ability, asking for reasonable damage and reasonable control is not an unreasonable request. As of right now, Tractor Beam Repulsors I does a much better job at damage and control than Gravity Well I or III on Tribble.
That's because one is designed for damage, and the other one is designed for control.
Do cannons pull all surrounding NPCs into a neat little ball and hold them there for chain warp core breaches?
Do cannons have an effectively unlimited AoE target?
Does GW have 'drop off' damage from range?
No.
Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
Compare GW to EWP, that's a better place to approach what GW should or should not be doing.
If we push for both GW's damage and pull, we will end up with a mediocre power that does neither well. I'd much rather see GW be really good at one aspect, with just a minor aspect of the other.
Yes one is the control power and no it is not GW it is TBR that is the control power.
Second yes GW has a damage drop down on distance as the farther away from the Center of the hazzard the less damage it causes.
GW is a targeted stationary hazard where cannon powers can Redirect the firing vector.
So please before you throw out something like not comparing apples with oranges ain't make the apples into pears and the oranges into lemons but stay on track.
Thank you Sir.
Back to Topic i am looking forward to see more feedback related to actual performance observations.
As for my part thank everyone taking the time on Tribble helping with data gathering.
It's a Lt. Commander and Commander level ability, asking for reasonable damage and reasonable control is not an unreasonable request. As of right now, Tractor Beam Repulsors I does a much better job at damage and control than Gravity Well I or III on Tribble.
Does BOFF tier suddenly denote damage?
VM & SS are both good control powers that are Ltc and Cmd Tier, neither does any actual damage.
If we push for both GW's damage and pull, we will end up with a mediocre power that does neither well. I'd much rather see GW be really good at one aspect, with just a minor aspect of the other.
How would it be mediocre at both if you pushed both higher?
VM & SS are both good control powers that are Ltc and Cmd Tier, neither does any actual damage.
Now who is comparing apples to oranges? :rolleyes: Tractor Beam Repulsors and Gravity Well are both damage dealing crowd control abilities. They fall under the particle generators damage category. Scramble Sensors falls under the Starship Countermeasures sector, specializing at debuffing the enemy's ability to target the enemy. Viral Matrix is a single target subsystem disable, scaled off of Subspace Decompiler, and falls more in the energy drain/subsystem disable category. They have vastly different functions. You know full well that damage improves with BOFF Tier. You can't give me a single example where this is not the case.
Gravity Well's primary function is to pull all nearby targets and to deal damage in the form of a DoT. If the ability merely held the target, then it would be borderline useless due to the fact that Science officers must run max auxiliary power in order for all of their abilities to be effective. This leaves them at minimal weapon power on top of the fact that their ships only have 3 weapon slots for and aft. Science officers specced for damage deal a significant portion of their damage though their science abilities. The ingame Starship Tutorial on Earth Spacedock actually mentions specifically that a Science officer's lack of weapons is accounted for their damage from science abilities.
Playing around with it I found that tactical abilities do buff GW3 to the same sort of levels as a science captain. I have managed to get about 5k per tick on enemies.
With my sci at 130 aux, 112 PrtG and with 4 Elite Mesh weavers (beta 3 x4), sensor scan and 3 stacks of conservation of energy I did this:
[4:52] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 4993 (1927) Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
Testing again with 192 PrtG and same as above I was getting this:
[4:47] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 5435 (2097) Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
That's not exactly something I'm gonna want to pump PrtG for and I would not be willing to give up 3 science consoles for a +440 per tick GW.
Now that's the upper limit of what I can test with my science captain and I do not have the same ship and pets to do it on my tactical captain so I can't comment on that other than in a vesta I was able to get GW3 to do 4-5k per tick in line with what I displayed here but without elite mesh weavers.
I'm not particularily overwhelmed by the role Particle generators plays in it at the moment and in the current game with the current science consoles etc it's not worth pumping them for GW.
When I tested with GW1 I got an upper range of 3k per tick with my tactical captain popping FOMM, APA and APB3. I also got about 3.1k per tick from my science captain as described above and 112 in PrtG with GW1.
All instances I held the target in the centre with a tractor beam and after several tests the results were more or less the same.
As far as the holds go, I didn't really notice too much of a difference between buffing Grav Gens and not buffing them. Needless to say they held things pretty well anyway.
It's also worth mentioning that in all my tests the Elite mesh weavers completely and utterly shredded the target in less than a minute. In fact I can't get a proper test going for total damage done with 4 copies of beta3 added as the recluses die before the well expires.
As for any devs that do read this. If you are intending to alter the way science abilities are getting buffed by consoles or something like that it would be nice to know. At the moment given the performance and increase given from the consoles it's not really worth slotting them to buff PrtG or GrvG for this skill.
Playing around with it I found that tactical abilities do buff GW3 to the same sort of levels as a science captain. I have managed to get about 5k per tick on enemies.
With my sci at 130 aux, 112 PrtG and with 4 Elite Mesh weavers (beta 3 x4), sensor scan and 3 stacks of conservation of energy I did this:
Tholian Mesh Weavers with Attack Pattern Beta III x4 will stack about -200 all damage resistance to the target. Only the recluse has the ability to stack APB III x4 like that from it's rather overpowered carrier pets. You can do the above right now on Holodeck with Gravity Well I.
I'm not particularily overwhelmed by the role Particle generators plays in it at the moment and in the current game with the current science consoles etc it's not worth pumping them for GW.
This is and has been for a long time one of the core issues of Science ships/powers. Their scaling with their stat is just too bad.
Let's see. If you use 4 tactical consoles for one energy type, you get a >20% boost for each individually.
If you use 4 science consoles of any type... you get a 20-30% boost of effectiveness FOR ALL 4 together. If you use one you won't even notice a difference.
And that is made even worse by the fracturing in lot's of different offensive and defensive science stats. Or how the added damage boost from weapons has a 100% uptime while a boost for sci powers only effects one spell every half a minute or so.
[5:27] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 2036 Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
This was done in my recluse (to enemy recluse) without tactical debuffs and without any debuffs. This is GW3 at 130 aux, 112 PrtG and 3 stacks of conservation of energy with a tractor beam holding the target in the middle.
With 207 PrtG and the same as above I was getting the following:
[5:42] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 2019 Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
It seems that really the thing that pushes the damage per ticks higher are damage resistance debuffs which have a much much bigger role than the skill that's supposed to determine it's damage.
Once again it holds things very nicely at a passive 142 grav gens.
Edit: I only skimmed over some of the apples, pears, oranges and sour grapes hubub but all I have to say is this.
When a high uptime of tactical abilities can do Khitomer Accord Space on elite difficulty in 1m50s I think one of the last things I'm worried about in PvE is GW3 doing too much damage per tick with a 40-60s CD.
Tactical abilities have completely run away with this game, it might be balanced for PvP where there is cross healing and debuff removal but it is hopelessly imbalanced for PvE.
Setting GW3 at 3-4k per tick base would be decent, it will make either escaping or equipping kinetic consoles needed. All I hear from the PvP forums is there's too much healing, too much cross healing etc etc. Give some AoE abilities some teeth and it might help solve this problem while making it worth something in PvE. I would also increase the role PrtG has on the ability. We're currently seeing about a +400 per tick for some +80 points (about +5dmg per point). Perhaps increasing this by 50-100% would help (so +7.5-10 dmg/tick per point of PrtG).
I think the whole idea of this change has been ill-thought out. Gravity Well III should be one of Sci's best tools, since it already takes a Cmdr-slot and heavy skill and console investment to be effective.
So why not just boost the coefficient from PartGen and AUX a lot higher? I mean, with a cooldown of a minute or so, a fixed location escapable by APO and PH(And possibly EPtE), DoT-mechanic for delivering damage... Why shouldn't a GW3 be absolutely devastating if used by a Sci with maxed out PartGen and 4-5 PartGen consoles? Because at that point, the Sci has already dedicated A LOT to get the effect.
Let's see. If you use 4 tactical consoles for one energy type, you get a >20% boost for each individually.
If you use 4 science consoles of any type... you get a 20-30% boost of effectiveness FOR ALL 4 together. If you use one you won't even notice a difference.
#1 - Each best tac console gives +30% of the base damage. Please keep the diminishing returns comments for the things that actually have that like armor and power insulators.
#2 - This statement about the bonus from sci consoles is a half truth blown out of proportion a bit depending on what consoles are being used exactly and for what. I can only show one sci skill and some other stuff benefited from the flow caps console since I never got to testing tachyon beam or Tyken Rift's drain.
Skill Flow capacitors
One +30 console gives you (Bonus compared to base amount)
+30% plasmonic leech
+30% energy siphon
+15% tetryon weapons proc
+15% polaron weapon proc
+12% tetryon glider
Two +30 consoles give you (showing +73 skill bonuses, but basically you can see it's a bit over double one):
+70% plasmonic leech
+74% energy siphon
+36.8% tetryon weapons proc
+36.8% polaron weapon proc
+32.7% tetryon glider
in conclusion, including ALL sci console + skill/proc combinations is not fair.
Finally, I also heard through an interview with I think it was Gecko that there may be changes to science ships and cruisers in the near to mid future.
If we knew a little bit about these changes or at least what they're intended to alter then we can perhaps give more informed feedback on where GW should be going and getting it right for such a time. I mean a 3-4k base GW3 might be ok now but be over/under powered when/if changes are made.
While testing in N'vak on spheres and probes I noticed my GW3 ticks crit for the amount of a regular tick. And I might be really unlucky but I wasn't able to get a single crit tick of GW1.
Since everybody is yelling about what it should be: GW is the multi-target AoE sibling to TB for hold/damage, and as such they should be comparable to each other for effectivness: GW1 should be comparable to TB1, but apply the hold and damage in a zone instead of on a single target. The strength of the hold should be modified by gravitons, the amount of damage should be modified by partgens, and the size of the hold sphere should be determined by AUX power.
IMO, the optimal skill target should be calculated at 200 skill points and 100 AUX. If you only wanted to focus on holds only and didnt care about the damage part then you would only need to build up the graviton gens, or conversely if you only wanted the damage part you could focus on partgens only. AUX would simply increase the reach.
Since everybody is yelling about what it should be: GW is the multi-target AoE sibling to TB for hold/damage, and as such they should be comparable to each other for effectivness: GW1 should be comparable to TB1, but apply the hold and damage in a zone instead of on a single target. The strength of the hold should be modified by gravitons, the amount of damage should be modified by partgens, and the size of the hold sphere should be determined by AUX power.
IMO, the optimal skill target should be calculated at 200 skill points and 100 AUX. If you only wanted to focus on holds only and didnt care about the damage part then you would only need to build up the graviton gens, or conversely if you only wanted the damage part you could focus on partgens only. AUX would simply increase the reach.
Not certain i read you post correct but i'll try to reduce what i understood to a few lines.
GW should get nerfed compared to what it is already on holodeck.
SCi powers should be balanced and scaled around 100 AUX and not 75 AUX where all other Subsystem powers like WPN and ENG related powers scale already from 50?
Skill investmend should be atleast three to four consols depending. While SCi powers more often then not make use of two diffrent skills to buff their effects? And compared with tactical weapon buffs you only Need to stack damage type consols to affect several diffrent typ of powers?
Please correct me if i miss interpreted your post but i get the Impression you either fear the prospect of SCi powers that actualy can deal damage or you hate SCi.
Given the minimal effect of graviton and particle generators on this ability I think we should ask the question, why chose a ship with more science consoles slots then less? Because right now flow capacitors are the only reason.
Lets take the vesta pack as an example. If i am some one who has baught the vesta pack and my goal is to maximize the effectivness of my gravity wells, why would I use the Surveillance explorer (vesta with 5 science 3 tac consoles)?
Loading up on graviton generators will effect the pull of the well by so small an amount that it is not noticable, and to achive this unnoticable benefit I must sacrafice a range of universal consoles and shield enhancing ones.
Loading up on particle generators might increase the damage I can get out of the gravity well by a small amount, but not enough to make up for having 1 less tactical console and using fewer crit boosting universal consoles.
I think graviton generators should effect the pull of gravity wells to a high degree. When a science ship with 5 graviton generator consols a [Grav] deflector and a captain with 6 or more points in the skill usess a gravity well 3 every one in their instance should imediatly know that their graviton generator skill is godly.
Particle generators probably shouldnt scale damage up to such a noticable degree, but there should be some advantage to using them that isnt renderd obsoleet by a tactical console right?
If gravity wells of ungodly pull strength are not on the table then at least reduce the effectivness of gravity wells without some graviton generator boosting so that graviton generating consoles can surve a purpose.
just as a comparison I picked up 4 - mk xi very rare partgen 28.1% consoles for testing on tribble for 200k ec now if those had been a tac disruptor consoles of the same mk and rarity I would have paid in the 10s of millions for them. as obvious from the test I ran wasting console space on the part Gen consoles for minimal effect is why they carry no value on the exchange. since the partgen skill is the damage aspect of sci skills you would reasonable expect them to have the same effect as stacking tactical consoles. otherwise why bother to slot them instead of say a Tachyokinetic, Assimilated module, and Zero-point console which boosts my overall crit chance/severity?
The gist of many of the posts is, why waste my sci console slots for something that just adds a max of 3% DPS to a gravity well. I agree with this. Maybe the devs are considering the cascading effect of warp core breaches like in No Win Scenario or the Azure Nebula Rescue, but really, many times you're just using it and trapping two or three ships in an elite STF that a tac captain can dispose of quickly with cannons.
Would it be to much trouble to beef up the damage done by Grav well (and all other sci abilities for that matter)? Just change the the tac abilities to NOT modify exotic damage that sci abilities do. Then your escorts can still shred everyone with their current powers, but sci captains who actually invest in particle generators and damaging sci abilities (especially the Cmdr. ones) can finally have some teeth. Even if it that damage falls short of what an escort can do, maybe we could finally be competitive again.
1) Tactical abilities buff all damage. Exotic damage IS kinetic damage and so is tied to those buffs thusly. I don't know if you could separate them but it is a good idea imo.
2) GW is an AoE damage and hold. Now while it's pretty pathetic on the hold part against players it should be good against NPC's again. Thing is, while doing 15k damage to 1-3 enemies is ok, doing 15k to 10 enemies = 150k total and oh look it's stupidly powerful. Add buffing and debuffing into the mix and you got yourself an ability that trully can take out a whole team in PvP when stacked by a few players.
There's also another problem. If you dig back a few pages I have linked a video where some fine young gentlemen display how more dps translates to laughably quick completion times of elite content. We're talking less than 2 minutes. We have devs that feel gravity well is too powerful if it crushes frigates but at the same time feel it is ok to let tactical abilities and captains run away with the show so to speak.
For the devs reading this. I don't mean it as a slight against you and balancing anything must be a hard job. Right now I and many other PvPers and other players are waking up to how to make these builds. Unfortunately we then look at our science vessels and we realise that they just can't compete or even come close in completion times for PvE content.
Cruisers can with the auxiliary to battery builds we see reducing cooldowns on tactical abilities but even then they're relying on tactical abilities to get the job done only facilitated by the engineering ability auxiliary to battery.
The problem with gravity well, and all exotic damage is very simple.
Why on earth does it synergies better with attack pattern beta! than anything else?
Everyone talks about how 'tacs have run away with the game' in PvE mostly and the number one reason is attack pattern beta, also the reason they haven't run away with the game in PvP as TT removes it.
"Gravity Well is a slow" - FALSE
"Gravity Well is a hold" - FALSE
"Gravity Well is an engine debuff" - FALSE
"Gravity Well is a knockback" - Mostly FALSE (Knocks have an upward trajectory associated with them, and animation for animating models. It's really just a technicality.)
"Gravity Well is a Repel" - TRUE
"Gravity Well is a Repel with a Negative Trajectory" - EVEN MORE TRUE
The effects on a ship's movement and velocity may resemble many of the above, but only one of them is actually what is taking place.
The best way to think of the effect would be as if a giant hand kept shoving your ship back towards the center of the Gravity Well, every ~1 second, as long as you remain within the radius of the hazard's effects.
The strength of that push actually weakens as you near the middle, in an effort to avoid having affected ships yo-yo-ing back and forth around the epicenter.
These factors combined make it behave much more like an actual force of gravity would on your ship. You can slingshot through it, for example. And traveling very quickly through the hazard may have very little effect on your ship, because the force of the 'push' might not be able to overwhelm that of your engines' forward thrust. It's physics! (or a close approximation)
I'm not sure if that explanation helps or hinders the understanding our players may have of the ability's effects. I'm just hoping to put to rest a few misconceptions about what the ability is and isn't.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Comments
Bort, the baseline went up by such a small amount that I hope you didnt miss the part where I flat out said more needs to be done (at least from what i can see), because with the nerf due to the aux scale changing, you might gain 10 percent more damage outright, but youre losing crowd control and damage on lower tiers.
I would strongly recommend pushing the aux scaling back up where it was, and letting it scale to 2k ticks. What can it possibly hurt? Tactical escorts do 10 times that kind of damage in a cone of effect that can be ran twice as often as a full part/graviton specced sci. If youre worried about AOE damage being too high, I will point you directly to beam fire at will aux to bat cruiser builds and cannon scatter volley escort builds. both of which do far more damage than even a triple strength gravity well could ever match, and have twice the uptime.
When you consider that based on other analysis so far of the lesser tier skills GW1 and GW2 losing damage compared to the holodeck build... a sci captain cycling gravity wells is is going to experience a net LOSS in damage versus a net gain. We gained a little bit on GW3 but lost significantly on 1 and 2.
For the sake of Sci captains everywhere, please put the aux scaling back in and raise the baseline damage another 20 percent. It still wont match a tacscort, but it narrows the gap a bit. The current tribble build widens the gap.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
It's how they currently function on Holodeck. Drop a GW on a target that will pop from the first tick - the first tick happens - the GW's gone. Like if you want to pop a minefield...oopsie.
+1 on this comment.
On another note, good job to whomever found the GW dissapearing on enemy destruction bug. Does Tyken's Rift have the same bug?
I agree, restoring the aux scaling would help, but I don't think increasing the baseline damage another 20% is needed. Such a change would only help players not heavily invested into Gravity Well. The old base damage was just fine, all we need back is the bonus damage from particle generators and the high aux scaling. Currently on holodeck, Gravity Well I receives +1.48 damage for every point in particle generators. Gravity Well III's tooltip receives +2.47 damage for every point in particle generators. Now with tribble, this has been standardized to +1.05 damage per point in particle generators, which is far too low. Simply restoring the aux scaling and standardizing the particle generator bonus to +1.48 should solve the concern over Gravity Well's damage.
Right now on Tribble, Fleet Mk XII particle generator consoles grant 33.5 damage per console with Gravity Well. I'd get a better damage return out of Tractor Beam I or Tractor Beam Repulsors I than I would with Gravity Well. Interestingly enough, a max specced Tractor Beam Repulsors I will deal 1286.35 (1865.2075 buffed) damage/second. A fully specced lieutenant science level ability becomes more powerful than a fully specced commander science level ability due to how small the bonus gravity well gains from aux as well as particle generators. Tractor beam repulsors can also be chained for about a 85% uptime with two copies/cooldown reduction, compared to Gravity well's 33% uptime (20 seconds up, 40 seconds down). This isn't to say Tractor Beam Repulsors needs a nerf, it doesn't, this is just attempting to show how underperforming Gravity Well will become if this change goes live.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
That's because one is designed for damage, and the other one is designed for control.
Do cannons pull all surrounding NPCs into a neat little ball and hold them there for chain warp core breaches?
Do cannons have an effectively unlimited AoE target?
Does GW have 'drop off' damage from range?
No.
Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
Compare GW to EWP, that's a better place to approach what GW should or should not be doing.
If we push for both GW's damage and pull, we will end up with a mediocre power that does neither well. I'd much rather see GW be really good at one aspect, with just a minor aspect of the other.
It's a Lt. Commander and Commander level ability, asking for reasonable damage and reasonable control is not an unreasonable request. As of right now, Tractor Beam Repulsors I does a much better job at damage and control than Gravity Well I or III on Tribble.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Yes one is the control power and no it is not GW it is TBR that is the control power.
Second yes GW has a damage drop down on distance as the farther away from the Center of the hazzard the less damage it causes.
GW is a targeted stationary hazard where cannon powers can Redirect the firing vector.
So please before you throw out something like not comparing apples with oranges ain't make the apples into pears and the oranges into lemons but stay on track.
Thank you Sir.
Back to Topic i am looking forward to see more feedback related to actual performance observations.
As for my part thank everyone taking the time on Tribble helping with data gathering.
Does BOFF tier suddenly denote damage?
VM & SS are both good control powers that are Ltc and Cmd Tier, neither does any actual damage.
Are you talking about PvP? Sure, I suppose.
Although TBR often does more to wreak havoc on your own team's escorts.
For PvE, outside of Borg Spheres which are getting nerged, GW does exactly what it should be doing.
I'm also not the one who started the apples to oranges comparisons, but I guess he gets a free pass?
It's not like the gravity well range is being extended that much, and you can't shoot out a GW to an enemy behind you.
Yes
How would it be mediocre at both if you pushed both higher?
Now who is comparing apples to oranges? :rolleyes: Tractor Beam Repulsors and Gravity Well are both damage dealing crowd control abilities. They fall under the particle generators damage category. Scramble Sensors falls under the Starship Countermeasures sector, specializing at debuffing the enemy's ability to target the enemy. Viral Matrix is a single target subsystem disable, scaled off of Subspace Decompiler, and falls more in the energy drain/subsystem disable category. They have vastly different functions. You know full well that damage improves with BOFF Tier. You can't give me a single example where this is not the case.
Gravity Well's primary function is to pull all nearby targets and to deal damage in the form of a DoT. If the ability merely held the target, then it would be borderline useless due to the fact that Science officers must run max auxiliary power in order for all of their abilities to be effective. This leaves them at minimal weapon power on top of the fact that their ships only have 3 weapon slots for and aft. Science officers specced for damage deal a significant portion of their damage though their science abilities. The ingame Starship Tutorial on Earth Spacedock actually mentions specifically that a Science officer's lack of weapons is accounted for their damage from science abilities.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Playing around with it I found that tactical abilities do buff GW3 to the same sort of levels as a science captain. I have managed to get about 5k per tick on enemies.
With my sci at 130 aux, 112 PrtG and with 4 Elite Mesh weavers (beta 3 x4), sensor scan and 3 stacks of conservation of energy I did this:
[4:52] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 4993 (1927) Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
Testing again with 192 PrtG and same as above I was getting this:
[4:47] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 5435 (2097) Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
That's not exactly something I'm gonna want to pump PrtG for and I would not be willing to give up 3 science consoles for a +440 per tick GW.
Now that's the upper limit of what I can test with my science captain and I do not have the same ship and pets to do it on my tactical captain so I can't comment on that other than in a vesta I was able to get GW3 to do 4-5k per tick in line with what I displayed here but without elite mesh weavers.
I'm not particularily overwhelmed by the role Particle generators plays in it at the moment and in the current game with the current science consoles etc it's not worth pumping them for GW.
When I tested with GW1 I got an upper range of 3k per tick with my tactical captain popping FOMM, APA and APB3. I also got about 3.1k per tick from my science captain as described above and 112 in PrtG with GW1.
All instances I held the target in the centre with a tractor beam and after several tests the results were more or less the same.
As far as the holds go, I didn't really notice too much of a difference between buffing Grav Gens and not buffing them. Needless to say they held things pretty well anyway.
It's also worth mentioning that in all my tests the Elite mesh weavers completely and utterly shredded the target in less than a minute. In fact I can't get a proper test going for total damage done with 4 copies of beta3 added as the recluses die before the well expires.
As for any devs that do read this. If you are intending to alter the way science abilities are getting buffed by consoles or something like that it would be nice to know. At the moment given the performance and increase given from the consoles it's not really worth slotting them to buff PrtG or GrvG for this skill.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Tholian Mesh Weavers with Attack Pattern Beta III x4 will stack about -200 all damage resistance to the target. Only the recluse has the ability to stack APB III x4 like that from it's rather overpowered carrier pets. You can do the above right now on Holodeck with Gravity Well I.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
This is and has been for a long time one of the core issues of Science ships/powers. Their scaling with their stat is just too bad.
Let's see. If you use 4 tactical consoles for one energy type, you get a >20% boost for each individually.
If you use 4 science consoles of any type... you get a 20-30% boost of effectiveness FOR ALL 4 together. If you use one you won't even notice a difference.
And that is made even worse by the fracturing in lot's of different offensive and defensive science stats. Or how the added damage boost from weapons has a 100% uptime while a boost for sci powers only effects one spell every half a minute or so.
TBR defeats its own damage dealing ability through its own ability to control.
You generally get a lot of one or the other in the way that it's used.
GW is the opposite, it deals better damage, the better it is able to control.
This is also why I feel GW needs to be either good at one, or the other, but not exceptionally strong at either.
I've already, earlier in the thread, mentioned the nearest example to compare GWs performance to: EWP.
The main difference between the two is the method of casting and size of the area they can control.
[5:27] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 2036 Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
This was done in my recluse (to enemy recluse) without tactical debuffs and without any debuffs. This is GW3 at 130 aux, 112 PrtG and 3 stacks of conservation of energy with a tractor beam holding the target in the middle.
With 207 PrtG and the same as above I was getting the following:
[5:42] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 2019 Kinetic Damage to Tholian Recluse.
It seems that really the thing that pushes the damage per ticks higher are damage resistance debuffs which have a much much bigger role than the skill that's supposed to determine it's damage.
Once again it holds things very nicely at a passive 142 grav gens.
Edit: I only skimmed over some of the apples, pears, oranges and sour grapes hubub but all I have to say is this.
When a high uptime of tactical abilities can do Khitomer Accord Space on elite difficulty in 1m50s I think one of the last things I'm worried about in PvE is GW3 doing too much damage per tick with a 40-60s CD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTYdY3ioGgY
Tactical abilities have completely run away with this game, it might be balanced for PvP where there is cross healing and debuff removal but it is hopelessly imbalanced for PvE.
Setting GW3 at 3-4k per tick base would be decent, it will make either escaping or equipping kinetic consoles needed. All I hear from the PvP forums is there's too much healing, too much cross healing etc etc. Give some AoE abilities some teeth and it might help solve this problem while making it worth something in PvE. I would also increase the role PrtG has on the ability. We're currently seeing about a +400 per tick for some +80 points (about +5dmg per point). Perhaps increasing this by 50-100% would help (so +7.5-10 dmg/tick per point of PrtG).
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
So why not just boost the coefficient from PartGen and AUX a lot higher? I mean, with a cooldown of a minute or so, a fixed location escapable by APO and PH(And possibly EPtE), DoT-mechanic for delivering damage... Why shouldn't a GW3 be absolutely devastating if used by a Sci with maxed out PartGen and 4-5 PartGen consoles? Because at that point, the Sci has already dedicated A LOT to get the effect.
#1 - Each best tac console gives +30% of the base damage. Please keep the diminishing returns comments for the things that actually have that like armor and power insulators.
#2 - This statement about the bonus from sci consoles is a half truth blown out of proportion a bit depending on what consoles are being used exactly and for what. I can only show one sci skill and some other stuff benefited from the flow caps console since I never got to testing tachyon beam or Tyken Rift's drain.
Skill Flow capacitors
One +30 console gives you (Bonus compared to base amount)
+30% plasmonic leech
+30% energy siphon
+15% tetryon weapons proc
+15% polaron weapon proc
+12% tetryon glider
Two +30 consoles give you (showing +73 skill bonuses, but basically you can see it's a bit over double one):
+70% plasmonic leech
+74% energy siphon
+36.8% tetryon weapons proc
+36.8% polaron weapon proc
+32.7% tetryon glider
in conclusion, including ALL sci console + skill/proc combinations is not fair.
If we knew a little bit about these changes or at least what they're intended to alter then we can perhaps give more informed feedback on where GW should be going and getting it right for such a time. I mean a 3-4k base GW3 might be ok now but be over/under powered when/if changes are made.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
My 2 EC's to the testing.
IMO, the optimal skill target should be calculated at 200 skill points and 100 AUX. If you only wanted to focus on holds only and didnt care about the damage part then you would only need to build up the graviton gens, or conversely if you only wanted the damage part you could focus on partgens only. AUX would simply increase the reach.
Not certain i read you post correct but i'll try to reduce what i understood to a few lines.
GW should get nerfed compared to what it is already on holodeck.
SCi powers should be balanced and scaled around 100 AUX and not 75 AUX where all other Subsystem powers like WPN and ENG related powers scale already from 50?
Skill investmend should be atleast three to four consols depending. While SCi powers more often then not make use of two diffrent skills to buff their effects? And compared with tactical weapon buffs you only Need to stack damage type consols to affect several diffrent typ of powers?
Please correct me if i miss interpreted your post but i get the Impression you either fear the prospect of SCi powers that actualy can deal damage or you hate SCi.
My hope is i just missread your post.
Lets take the vesta pack as an example. If i am some one who has baught the vesta pack and my goal is to maximize the effectivness of my gravity wells, why would I use the Surveillance explorer (vesta with 5 science 3 tac consoles)?
Loading up on graviton generators will effect the pull of the well by so small an amount that it is not noticable, and to achive this unnoticable benefit I must sacrafice a range of universal consoles and shield enhancing ones.
Loading up on particle generators might increase the damage I can get out of the gravity well by a small amount, but not enough to make up for having 1 less tactical console and using fewer crit boosting universal consoles.
I think graviton generators should effect the pull of gravity wells to a high degree. When a science ship with 5 graviton generator consols a [Grav] deflector and a captain with 6 or more points in the skill usess a gravity well 3 every one in their instance should imediatly know that their graviton generator skill is godly.
Particle generators probably shouldnt scale damage up to such a noticable degree, but there should be some advantage to using them that isnt renderd obsoleet by a tactical console right?
If gravity wells of ungodly pull strength are not on the table then at least reduce the effectivness of gravity wells without some graviton generator boosting so that graviton generating consoles can surve a purpose.
1) Tactical abilities buff all damage. Exotic damage IS kinetic damage and so is tied to those buffs thusly. I don't know if you could separate them but it is a good idea imo.
2) GW is an AoE damage and hold. Now while it's pretty pathetic on the hold part against players it should be good against NPC's again. Thing is, while doing 15k damage to 1-3 enemies is ok, doing 15k to 10 enemies = 150k total and oh look it's stupidly powerful. Add buffing and debuffing into the mix and you got yourself an ability that trully can take out a whole team in PvP when stacked by a few players.
There's also another problem. If you dig back a few pages I have linked a video where some fine young gentlemen display how more dps translates to laughably quick completion times of elite content. We're talking less than 2 minutes. We have devs that feel gravity well is too powerful if it crushes frigates but at the same time feel it is ok to let tactical abilities and captains run away with the show so to speak.
For the devs reading this. I don't mean it as a slight against you and balancing anything must be a hard job. Right now I and many other PvPers and other players are waking up to how to make these builds. Unfortunately we then look at our science vessels and we realise that they just can't compete or even come close in completion times for PvE content.
Cruisers can with the auxiliary to battery builds we see reducing cooldowns on tactical abilities but even then they're relying on tactical abilities to get the job done only facilitated by the engineering ability auxiliary to battery.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Why on earth does it synergies better with attack pattern beta! than anything else?
Everyone talks about how 'tacs have run away with the game' in PvE mostly and the number one reason is attack pattern beta, also the reason they haven't run away with the game in PvP as TT removes it.
Attack Pattern Beta.
"Gravity Well is a hold" - FALSE
"Gravity Well is an engine debuff" - FALSE
"Gravity Well is a knockback" - Mostly FALSE (Knocks have an upward trajectory associated with them, and animation for animating models. It's really just a technicality.)
"Gravity Well is a Repel" - TRUE
"Gravity Well is a Repel with a Negative Trajectory" - EVEN MORE TRUE
The effects on a ship's movement and velocity may resemble many of the above, but only one of them is actually what is taking place.
The best way to think of the effect would be as if a giant hand kept shoving your ship back towards the center of the Gravity Well, every ~1 second, as long as you remain within the radius of the hazard's effects.
The strength of that push actually weakens as you near the middle, in an effort to avoid having affected ships yo-yo-ing back and forth around the epicenter.
These factors combined make it behave much more like an actual force of gravity would on your ship. You can slingshot through it, for example. And traveling very quickly through the hazard may have very little effect on your ship, because the force of the 'push' might not be able to overwhelm that of your engines' forward thrust. It's physics! (or a close approximation)
I'm not sure if that explanation helps or hinders the understanding our players may have of the ability's effects. I'm just hoping to put to rest a few misconceptions about what the ability is and isn't.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.