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Forums > Home› Test Servers› Tribble› Tribble - General Discussion and Feedback

Gravity Well Feedback Thread

burstdragon323burstdragon323 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
edited March 2014 in Tribble - General Discussion and Feedback
Not a cryptic-made thread, but lets keep track of the changes in this thread.

If possible, please post:
PvP or PvE test
Damage per tick
-Repel Effectiveness
Skill in Particles and Gravitons (if you're the attacker)
Skill in Inertial Dampeners (if you're the target)
Post edited by Unknown User on
«13

Comments

  • burstdragon323burstdragon323 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    You can't tell me that no one is testing this.....

    I would if cryptic had used my suggestion for TRIBBLE.
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Testing Parameters
    - Test of Mettle KDF story mission
    - House of Torg Cruiser enemy
    - Gravity Well 3
    - Aux 130
    - Particle Generators 174
    - B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit

    No special doffs or anything else.


    Holodeck tooltip: 1440.3 kinetic/sec
    Holodeck observed results: 936.61 DPS/17,983 total damage dealt
    [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 901 Kinetic Damage to House of Torg Cruiser.
    http://i.imgur.com/Ap1O5QK.jpg




    Tribble tooltip: At aux 130 1202.3 kinetic/sec
    Tribble observed results: 1083.47 DPS/21,286 total damage dealt
    [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1220 Kinetic Damage to House of Torg Cruiser.
    http://i.imgur.com/dcxghsr.jpg



    Analysis:
    This does not appear like a nerf. The damage has increased by about 10% at aux power 130 with 174 particle generators. The change is underwhelming, however. Was able to reproduce the same results three different times (included screens of only one of each test for brevity). The tooltip on Tribble is accurate more or less, but the one on Holodeck is way off.

    I recommend the developers consider increasing the damage another 30-50% due to the fact the ability has a long cooldown. It isnt like you can just keep spamming it, cannon scatter volley 3 (commander tactical) parses out at over 2500 sustained DPS with a good build.

    As it stands, gravity well 3 over time will only do about 300 DPS. This is about 1/8th of the damage output of a comparable tactical commander bridge officer ability. If I had been a tactical captain using CSV3 on that same MOB, I would have done over 50,000 damage to it in the same 20 second span (if not more).

    This is one of the major issues with science abilities. They just cannot compare. Please consider these results and recommendations, development.
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • dontirridontirri Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Testing Parameters
    - Ker'rat
    - Borg Sphere
    - Gravity Well I
    - Aux 117
    - Particle Generators 99
    - B'rel Bird of Prey Retrofit
    No Doffs that affect Grav Well
    Attack Pattern AlphaIII, Attack Pattern OmegaIII, Fire on My Mark III and Tactical Fleet III, 15% all damage from cloak active

    Damage: 35901 total damage with an average tick of 1500

    Same parameters, no APA,APO,FoMM or TF, but cloaked

    Damage: 15023 total damage with an average tick of 950.
    Tooltip states 550,6 damage per second.

    Second test
    -Ker'rat
    -Borg Sphere
    - Grav Well III
    - Aux 125
    - Part Gen 99
    - Wells class temporal science vessel
    No doffs
    No buffs.

    Total damage: 15438 with an averge tick of 900

    Same parameters, this time with Sensor Scan III

    30113 total damage with the averga tick of 2000


    On Holodeck with the B'Rel, same parameters otherwise.
    With Full buffs total damage: 27319
    Without buffs outside of the cloak: 13148

    What does this prove? Not much. Outside that the buff to Grav Well serves Tacs better than Sci. After all, a GW1 fully buffed by Tac abilities outstrips GW3 with Sci-buffs... *facepalm*

    GJ Cryptic.
  • burstdragon323burstdragon323 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    No, thank Borticus. Apparently, GW3 was too OP if it could destroy FRIGATES, thus we got what he called a "rebalance", but in all actuality, its a massive nerf to it's potential damage. The devs are too scared to give Science powers any teeth.
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,676 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    What about -Repel Effectiveness? Can it actually stop a EPtE Borg Sphere now? The encounters at Gamma Orionis have Spheres with EPtE if a Gold would like to test this.
  • burstdragon323burstdragon323 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Bort claims to be reading this thread and analyzing the results.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2013
    burstdragon323 wrote: »
    Bort claims to be reading this thread and analyzing the results.

    And so far there have been a grand total of two players that have posted their results in two different testing scenarios, both with very different results (one saw an increase to baseline, the other was all over the place with Tac Buff analysis). If this gives you the impression that it's early enough to draw conclusions, then you are grossly mistaken.

    So please, don't spam the thread. Your feedback is being heard.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • burstdragon323burstdragon323 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    borticuscryptic wrote:
    And so far there have been a grand total of two players that have posted their results in two different testing scenarios, both with very different results (one saw an increase to baseline, the other was all over the place with Tac Buff analysis). If this gives you the impression that it's early enough to draw conclusions, then you are grossly mistaken.

    There are so few because for some reason you guys decided that TRIBBLE needed to be GOLD ONLY, therefore a HUGE chunk of the playerbase is barred (myself included, 2 year science powers veteran) from testing these changes.
    borticuscryptic wrote:
    So please, don't spam the thread. Your feedback is being heard.

    How can I spam a thread that I started?
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited September 2013
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    And so far there have been a grand total of two players that have posted their results in two different testing scenarios, both with very different results (one saw an increase to baseline, the other was all over the place with Tac Buff analysis). If this gives you the impression that it's early enough to draw conclusions, then you are grossly mistaken.

    So please, don't spam the thread. Your feedback is being heard.

    Dear dev:

    Many more of us would love to test this before this makes it into prod, unfortunately only people with access to Tribble can. I'll be out for two weeks so now I guess I'll just have to see what makes it to Holodeck and complain then.

    On another note, good job with Tyken's Rift from what I've read, the combination of working drain and damage seems to be deadly. As far as Gravity Well goes, the fact that using tac buffs to hike up the damage is better than investing in science skills sucks as far as fairness and balance goes.
  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited September 2013
    PVE Smash & Grab - Cardassian Galor,Keldon, and Hideki ships
    Romulan Sci Capt = 142 in graviton generators and 125 particle gens
    space skill points
    Boff setup
    weapons loadout

    Using the MU Ha'nom guardian warbird for test running full power to aux: Sensor scan, GW-3 immediately upon decloaking. The Repel/Hold portion of GW seemed to be working as it would even cluster 2 of the transports together along with the Galor and 2-Hideki ships.

    I must be doing something wrong with ACT as I can't get a combatlog to save to the normal directory, not sure where it is since I ran 3 separate tests of just the space part of the mission. :(

    This is the Damage the in-game combat log is showing for the 1st firing which effected 4-Hideki class ships:

    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 642 (437) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 842 (573) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1326 (903) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1544 (1051) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 747 (508) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1472 (1002) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1390 (946) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 568 (386) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1096 (746) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1503 (1023) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 935 (637) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 438 (298) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1506 (1025) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1294 (881) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 412 (280) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 497 (338) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 854 (581) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 913 (622) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 480 (327) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 397 (270) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 454 (309) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 579 (394) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 454 (309) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 451 (307) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 349 (237) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1155 (786) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 590 (401) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 313 (213) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1374 (935) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 410 (279) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 860 (586) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 275 (187) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1302 (886) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 578 (393) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 785 (534) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 273 (186) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 807 (550) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1286 (875) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 901 (613) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 355 (242) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1328 (904) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 816 (555) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 991 (675) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1199 (816) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 993 (676) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1250 (851) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 733 (499) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1194 (813) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 727 (495) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1234 (840) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1399 (952) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 787 (535) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1183 (805) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 530 (361) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1286 (875) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 583 (397) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1424 (969) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 579 (394) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 841 (573) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 554 (377) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1019 (694) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 971 (661) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 692 (471) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 638 (434) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1285 (875) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 836 (569) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 768 (523) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 620 (422) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1326 (903) Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 644 (438) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 878 (598) Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 632 (430) KineticDamage(Critical)toHideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 950 (647) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 1061 (722) Kinetic DamagetoHidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 970 (660) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 556 (379) Kinetic Damage to HidekiClass.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 848 Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 485 Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 557 Kinetic Damage to Hideki Class.
    [6:04] [Combat (Self)] Your Gravity Well III deals 500 Kinetic Damage(Critical) to Hideki Class.

    GW-3 collapsed
    As a general impression its hard to tell if it's an improvement since I haven't run GW-3 in forever, But as it is supposed to be a sci ski I would expect a max Aux activation to cause greater damage and increased hold the hold seems to be working unsure about the damage aspect though.

    Anyone know if ACT works with tribble I think I broke it. :P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • deianirrahdeianirrah Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    What I would like to know:

    * has the Hold-Effect of GW 2 and 3 been increased on Tribble in comparison to Holodeck or not and how does it fare in Infected Space against the Borg Spheres using EPtE, the Probes in Kithomer Space or the borgified Klingon ships in Cure Space in comparison?
    * how strong is the Hold-Effect of GW 2 and 3 on Tribble in comparison to the Singularity created by the Tier 4 Singularity Jump ability?
    * how much did the range of the GW actually extend - afaik, roughly 3.75 km have been the current maximum?

    I am personally not really interested in an actual damage increase of either Tyken's Rift or Gravity Well. I'd like to see them work as intended in PvE at least, though. Meaning noticeable Hold-Effects for GW and a significant (but definitely not complete) Energy drain by Tyken's Rift - even when being used multiple times on the same target by different players.
    Taskforce 47 Falkenwacht (Federation) / Greifenreiter (KDF)
    (at) deianirrah
    Free Gear and where to get it
  • jivedutchjivedutch Member Posts: 358 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I have stopped using Tykens completly, since in Holodeck it seems only usefull on the Unimatrix vessels and select Cubes .... all other ships just fly off as iff nothing has happened ...

    As for GW ... it really should only be "escapable" if u can pour in enough engine power, like now with EP2E, A2D and Evasive ....
    "Tricks" like PH and APO really should break the gravity-well, since its not a tractor like effect, but a gravity one ...
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    And so far there have been a grand total of two players that have posted their results in two different testing scenarios, both with very different results (one saw an increase to baseline, the other was all over the place with Tac Buff analysis). If this gives you the impression that it's early enough to draw conclusions, then you are grossly mistaken.

    So please, don't spam the thread. Your feedback is being heard.

    I would have posted my results for PVP Based feedback, but the player I was testing against didn't have anything in Inertial Dampners. So he kept getting pulled in.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Could someone please log into tribble and test a gravity well I and a gravity well III with 130 auxiliary power with at least 200 in particle generators? If you can, please take note of the following:
    1. The base damage with Gravity Well I at 130 auxiliary power. Please also record your current total skill point investment in Particle Generators.
    2. The base damage with Gravity Well I at 130 auxiliary power and +1 Particle Generator console. This will help determine the amount of bonuses per point in particle generators.
    3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 for Gravity Well III.
    4. Please copy and save the actual combat log damage from a single Gravity Well I to a stationary unshielded target. The Romulan mission Minefield, specifically the Rubindium Asteroids near the end of the mission, would serve as ideal targets.
    5. Please repeat the above step for Gravity Well III

    I would really like some controlled numbers to work with before giving feedback. If these previous numbers are right, then Gravity Well I (Tribble) is 20% less effective on the damage side than Gravity Well I (Holodeck). Also, Gravity Well III (Tribble) is 10% more effective on the damage side than Gravity Well I (Holodeck). If this is indeed the case, I hope something can be done before this reaches holodeck. The current Gravity Well I barely scratches the surface of NPCs. Gravity Well won't be a viable damage dealing ability if this goes live in the current state. They are Lt. Commander and Commander abilities. Tactical and Engineering captains both have a very large return on their high end abilities, surely Science shouldn't be any different.
    --->Ground PvP Concerns Directory 4.0
    --->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
    Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2013
    Guys, don't panic about Tribble having restricted access at this time. I guarantee that you will all have a chance to try out these changes and offer your feedback before they go to Holodeck, either by Tribble becoming unrestricted, or by these changes being put onto Redshirt.

    I don't have timelines for either of those happening, though. Sorry.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • lordcuttersladelordcutterslade Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    majortiraomega wrote: »
    Could someone please log into tribble and test a gravity well I and a gravity well III with 130 auxiliary power with at least 200 in particle generators?

    alright so i tested GW1 and GW3 on tribble

    Here are the Tooltip stats first:

    ( 226 points in particle generators,4consoles and 130 aux)

    GW1 660.8
    GW2 881
    GW3 1.100.9


    ( 195 points in particle generators,3 consoles and 130 aux)

    GW1 640.6
    GW2 854
    GW3 1067.3

    majortiraomega wrote: »
    1. Please copy and save the actual combat log damage from a single Gravity Well I to a stationary unshielded target. The Romulan mission Minefield, specifically the Rubindium Asteroids near the end of the mission, would serve as ideal targets.
    2. Please repeat the above step for Gravity Well III

    now to the dmg ticks:

    GW1-226points(4 particle consoles)and 130 aux

    GW3- 226 points(4 particle consoles)and 130 aux
    [SIGPIC]Everything is awesome![/SIGPIC]
  • burstdragon323burstdragon323 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    Guys, don't panic about Tribble having restricted access at this time. I guarantee that you will all have a chance to try out these changes and offer your feedback before they go to Holodeck, either by Tribble becoming unrestricted, or by these changes being put onto Redshirt.

    I don't have timelines for either of those happening, though. Sorry.

    No panic here, but I still don't understand why TRIBBLE was restricted in the first place. I looked at the changes, nothing there that could warrant the lockout.

    Personally Bort, I want a shot to do my own testing before the first round of nerfs go out. Specifically:

    Damage VS 1 target
    Damage VS Multiple targets
    Repel Effectiveness VS Players
    Offensive Potential in a Team
    Defensive Options VS the Repel
    Efectiveness with various AUX levels (15/25/40/50/100/125)
    Damage Scaling differences
    Damage Differences VS NPCs and Players
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    lordcutterslade wrote: »
    alright so i tested GW1 and GW3 on tribble

    Here are the Tooltip stats first:

    ( 226 points in particle generators,4consoles and 130 aux)

    GW1 660.8
    GW2 881
    GW3 1.100.9


    ( 195 points in particle generators,3 consoles and 130 aux)

    GW1 640.6
    GW2 854
    GW3 1067.3




    now to the dmg ticks:

    GW1-226points(4 particle consoles)and 130 aux

    GW3- 226 points(4 particle consoles)and 130 aux

    that looks pretty fair considering the console and skill investment
    gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
  • canis36canis36 Member Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    What about some low end stats for comparison? Say no points invested, zero consoles, 15 aux?
  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    lordcutterslade wrote: »
    alright so i tested GW1 and GW3 on tribble

    Here are the Tooltip stats first:

    ( 226 points in particle generators,4consoles and 130 aux)

    GW1 660.8
    GW2 881
    GW3 1.100.9


    ( 195 points in particle generators,3 consoles and 130 aux)

    GW1 640.6
    GW2 854
    GW3 1067.3


    now to the dmg ticks:

    GW1-226points(4 particle consoles)and 130 aux

    GW3- 226 points(4 particle consoles)and 130 aux
    Thank you very much for doing this test lordcutterslade. As of right now, Gravity Well I (Holodeck) is dealing 941.9 damage/second under 226 points in particle generators. However, Gravity Well I (Tribble) is dealing 660.8 damage/second. Under these test results, Gravity Well I (Tribble) is 30% less effective than Gravity Well I (Holodeck). This is indeed unfortunate, when this goes live Gravity Well I will be putting out less damage than a single beam array. The damage dealt by the current holodeck Gravity Well I is fine in the current state. It could use a hold buff (which it gets), but the damage against players is nowhere near over the top.

    The maximum a player can get a Gravity Well I's damage unbuffed is 1066.22 damage/second. With buffs (Attack Pattern Omega I and Conservation of Energy), Gravity Well I can deal 1546.019 damage/second. That is 21,324.4 damage over 20 seconds unbuffed and 30,920.38 damage over 20 seconds when buffed. Cannon Scatter Volley II will deal that amount of damage over it's 8 second duration, the gravity well I's holodeck numbers are reasonable. Based on the tooltip, the maximum a player can get Gravity Well III on holodeck is 1,777.527 damage/second without buffs. With buffs (Attack Pattern Omega I and Conservation of Energy) Gravity Well III would deal 2,577.41415 damage/second. This would be 35,550.54 damage over 20 seconds without buffs or 51,548.283 damage over 20 seconds with buffs. Yes, Gravity Well III would be very powerful when fully buffed, but it would require a massive skill point, trait, and gear investment in order to get the stats.

    Reaching 310.5 particle generators requires 5 fleet embassy particle generator consoles, the nukara particle converter, the Adapted MACO Deflector, the Astrophysicist trait, and 36,000 skill points. In order to make the ability's hold effective, a player needs to invest an extra 12,000 skill points and 2 graviton generator universal consoles (Assimilated Module and Tachokinetic Converter). The conservation of energy trait and 1 copy of Attack Pattern Omega I is also required to up the damage further. On top of this, the player must ensure that the target remains in close proximity of the gravity well to actually deal the damage listed on the tooltip. There is a massive investment required to make this ability very powerful. If Gravity Well III functioned as well as the tooltip on Holodeck lists, then it would be on par with a fully specced Cannon Rapid Fire/Scatter Volley III, Eject Warp Plasma III, or Directed Energy Modulation III.

    As for the Tribble version of Gravity Well III, the maximum you can get out of it is 1156.025, just 89.805 damage more than the current maximum specced Gravity Well I here on holodeck. Essentially, the changes to Gravity Well III (Tribble) has made it a barely better version of Gravity Well I (Holodeck) and Gravity Well I (Tribble) has gone from somewhat useful to having significant underperformance issues. Gravity Well III (Tribble) still remains as an underperforming ability over the current Gravity Well III (Holodeck).
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  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited September 2013
    canis36 wrote: »
    What about some low end stats for comparison? Say no points invested, zero consoles, 15 aux?

    going to test that now :)
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  • lordcuttersladelordcutterslade Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    i wanted to test it with 15 aux and 0 in particle generators but my boffs all disappeard lol
    any idea how to fix this?^^

    anyways....i'm a bit confused now...
    wasn't it the plan to fix Gravity Well 3?since GW1 did more damage than GW3...

    when i look at the stats on holo and tribble i notice that the dmg from GW3 has been significantly reduced

    GW3

    1333 dmg on holodeck with 130 aux and 126 particle generator points
    (that's what the tooltip says at least)

    1000 dmg on tribble with the same stats as above
    (and really doing that amount of dmg since i tested it earlier)
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  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited September 2013
    So basically borticus nerfed science again while telling us he actually fixed. The Picard facepalm is just not enough here.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited September 2013
    compiling data now, but something I hadn't ever noticed before but I may have missed is the Gravity well supposed to collapse if the primary target dies even if there are other affected targets caught in the GW and you still have time remaining on the duration.

    Example the asteroid in the Mission:Minefield was down to a sliver of health fired the GW-3 at it pop asteroid disappears along with the gravity well is that normal or new?
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  • majortiraomegamajortiraomega Member Posts: 2,214 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    kapla1755 wrote: »
    compiling data now, but something I hadn't ever noticed before but I may have missed is the Gravity well supposed to collapse if the primary target dies even if there are other affected targets caught in the GW and you still have time remaining on the duration.

    Example the asteroid in the Mission:Minefield was down to a sliver of health fired the GW-3 at it pop asteroid disappears along with the gravity well is that normal or new?

    That would also be a new. Gravity Well persists the full 20 seconds here on Holodeck. This is rather disappointing. Gravity Well I (Tribble) is 30% less effective than Gravity Well I (Holodeck) and Gravity Well III (Tribble) is basically a Gravity Well I (Holodeck) with an insignificant boost to damage. And now we learn that Gravity Well vanishes if the target is destroyed...
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  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Someone try it again, and on something else. I thot we had Starbase 234 for it?

    Either that, or something else broke while Tribbled.

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  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited September 2013
    GravWells dissipating if the primary target dies, you say? Easy to troubleshoot, if so. I will investigate and verify.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
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  • myrnwynmyrnwyn Member Posts: 103 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    GravWells dissipating if the primary target dies, you say? Easy to troubleshoot, if so. I will investigate and verify.

    I haven't been testing this in tribble so I can't say for most targets, but it has at least always done this when fired at the Nanite Transformer in ISE.
  • pwstolemynamepwstolemyname Member Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    borticuscryptic wrote: »
    GravWells dissipating if the primary target dies, you say? Easy to troubleshoot, if so. I will investigate and verify.

    As it happens I just jumped onto tribble to test gravity well myself. Because my primary area of interest is the pull, and most of the feedback hear is damage. Any way before I get into that I can tell you how to replicate the problem of quick gravity well dissipation.

    Go to the Japori system in tau Dewa. When ever you use a gravity well on one of the energy syphon drones that the syphon frigates spawn the well persists for just a moment and disappears as the drone pops. This holds true on tribble and Holodeck.

    Ok Now to report on gravity wells pull. For this test I went to the aforementioned Japori system. I took my wells as it helps me reuse the ability a little more often so that I could compare gravity wells with more or less graviton generator skill in quicker succession and form a more accurate assessment.

    First I would like to say that the pull of a gravity well III is certainly much better on tribble then holodeck. I am very happy to see that gravity wells will be useful again. I was also very happy with how the pull scaled with aux power so that it wasn't completely useless at lower levels but noticeably better when aux was high.

    However I am very disappointed in the effect of the graviton generators skill. For my testing I used 4 very rare mk XII graviton generator consoles. Without those I had 110 graviton generator skill, with them I had 230.

    If one sacrifices 4 console slots on consoles that represent the largest EC investment in a skill it is not unreasonable to expect a performance difference with and without that is noticeable.

    Sadly I could not tell the difference between the pull of the wells with or without these consoles. So I used the wife test. The wife test is very scientific. The wife is a good arbiter because she knows nothing about graviton generators, gravity wells or STO and has no investment in it one way or the other.

    I showed my wife the effect of 6 gravity wells on 6 groups of enemies. (that was as many as I could hold her attention for) And switched the consoles so that 3 times I was using them and 3 times I was not. Between each demonstration I had the wife look away while I changed or pretended to change the consoles.

    Each time I asked my wife if she thought the pull of the gravity well was greater, smaller or about the same. Every time her answer was about the same.

    Wife test result: Total graviton generator Failure.
  • kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited September 2013
    Gravity Well 1-3 Damage Tribble test data summary


    Gravity well was fired at the target until health of the Rubindium Asteroid was 0/21,607
    (= "x"Kdmg is dmg from tooltip x 20 sec of Gravity well to give us an overall feel)


    1.] GW-1 with no skill points and (1) 28.1% ParticleGen console @130 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 535 Kinetic damage per sec = 10,700 Kdmg total

    2.] GW-3 with no skill points and (1) 28.1% ParticleGen console @ 130 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 891.5 Kinetic damage per sec = 17,830 Kdmg total

    3.] GW-1 test no skill, no consoles @ 130 aux power, no sensor scan or other buffs used:
    ToolTip shows: 517.2 Kinetic damage per sec = 10,344 Kdmg total

    4.] GW-3 test no skill, no consoles @ 130 aux power, no sensor scan or other buffs used:
    ToolTip shows: 861.8 Kinetic damage per sec = 17,236 Kdmg total

    5.] GW-1 test 139pts PartGen from consoles(4)and deflector, no skill points @ 130 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 605.1 Kinetic damage per sec = 12,102 Kdmg total

    6.] GW-3 test 139pts PartGen from consoles(4)and deflector, no skill points @ 130 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 1,008.3 Kinetic damage per sec = 20,166 Kdmg total

    7.] GW-3 test 99pts graviton + 238pts part gen @ 130 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 1,112.8 Kinetic damage per sec = 22,256 Kdmg total

    8.] GW-1 test 99pts graviton + 238pts part gen @ 130 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 667.9 Kinetic damage per sec = 13,358 Kdmg total

    9.] GW-1 test 99pts graviton + 238pts PartGen @ 57 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 474.7 Kinetic damage per sec = 9,494 Kdmg total

    10.] GW-3 test 99pts graviton + 238pts PartGens @ 57 aux:
    ToolTip shows: 791 Kinetic damage per sec = 15,820 Kdmg total

    11.] GW-3 test 116 graviton, 238 partgen, 130 aux, tractor beam, -62.9 from sensor scan 3, aftershock gw doff, tractor beam doff:
    ToolTip shows: 1,112.8 Kinetic damage per sec(GW-3),165.3x25 [4132.5kdpsover 10sec] Kinetic damage per sec(TB) = 22,256 Kdmg total + 4132.5 kdmg = 26,388.5 kdmg

    12.] GW-1 test 116 graviton, 238 partgen, 130 aux, tractor beam, -62.9 from sensor scan 3, aftershock gw doff, tractor beam doff:
    ToolTip shows: 667.9 Kinetic damage per sec(GW-1),165.3x25 [4132.5kdpsover 10sec] Kinetic damage per sec(TB) = 13,358 Kdmg total + 4132.5 kdmg = 17,490.5 kdmg


    Supplemental comparision vs another Sci skill that uses PartGen as a Dmg Component

    13.] TBR-2 test 116 graviton, 238 partgen, 33 aux, -62.9 from sensor scan 3:
    ToolTip shows: 1,457.9 Kdps x10pulses or sec(+7.9 repel) lower graviton generators even less repel
    = 20,703kdmg total

    14.] TBR-1 test 116 graviton, 238 partgen, 33 aux, -62.9 from sensor scan 3:
    ToolTip shows: 1,104.5 Kdps x10pulses or sec(+5.8 repel) lower graviton generators even less repel
    = 14,558 kdmg total

    15.] TBR-1 test 116 graviton, 125 partgen, @33 aux, -62.9 from sensor scan 3:
    ToolTip shows: 823.2 Kdps x10pulses or sec(+5.8 repel) lower graviton generators even less repel
    = 11,024 kdmg total

    16.] TBR-2 test 116 graviton, 125 partgen, @33 aux, -62.9 from sensor scan 3:
    ToolTip shows: 1,086.7 Kdps x10pulses or sec(+7.9 repel) lower graviton generators even less repel
    = 13,786 kdmg total

    17.] TBR-3 test 116 graviton, 125 partgen, @33 aux, -62.9 from sensor scan 3:
    ToolTip shows: 1,366.6 Kdps x10pulses or sec(+9.8 repel) lower graviton generators even less repel
    = 17,322 kdmg total

    18.] TBR-3 test 116 graviton, 238 partgen, @33 aux, -62.9 from sensor scan 3:
    ToolTip shows: 1,833.4 Kdps x10pulses or sec(+9.8 repel) lower graviton generators even less repel
    = 27,596 kdmg total



    Conclusions are that there is not much benefit to using Tribble GW (as tested) unless you need to cluster enemies for your other weapons. Even with a heavy skill and console investment the damage doesn't seem to scale properly with the skill/console space required.


    Example would be a comparison between test #6 and test #7 at a cost of losing 4 console slots we gain only 2,090pts of damage where in one of those console slots I could add in the Isometric charge console which also benefits from the PartGen skill and triple my damage output roughly.
    GW-3 does seem to scale well with aux power if we compare test #7 and test #10 for a boost of 73 aux power we gain a 6,436 Kdmg boost.
    Conservation of energy may have added to the damage total but since it requires the enemy to fire at you it was inapplicable to this test of a static target.


    Solutions:

    Make GW scale better with the PartGen skill and/or add in a collapsing GW damage bonus like the
    Subspace Integration circuit console has perhaps.

    Edit: removing say 15sec+ from the GW CD would also be a positive benefit for the skill as long as the PartGen stacking is fixed it would make it more than a Hold till my torpedos or CSV arrived.

    Test Data Damage per Tick
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