I doubt anyone here wants to force you to do those things. However, in PvP, for it to be interesting, someone has to die.
I've often had 1v1 battles with a good friend of mine where neither of us could best the other. To be honest, I'd rather have my captain die than stay in that perpetual stalemate - but, like it or not - balance is what gives you that constant tied-game status.
In reality, Escorts should always win, because they're dedicated warships (yes, the same can be said of some cruisers, and those cruisers should win more often also).
I get that its upsetting to loose on your preferred playstyle, but...
Personally, I think you've become too focused on just one thing. The vaping of an opponent in such a way as to prevent them from doing anything. Basically you're making the other players into training dummies that just sit there and take it simply because your builds kill them off before they can even react. What you call skill is really just loading up on the buffs, then waiting for the right moment to strike. Maybe there IS skill to that, but then what skill is there to surviving such an attack if it goes off correctly and you get the crits to happen? You use skill but your opponnent cannot, how is that at all PvP?
Finally, for all you complain of DHCs, DHCs used on competent opponents still do not kill someone in 2 seconds or less. So there is a reaction time, its actually a hit-response situation, not a I hit you and you just take it.
I think the change will improve the quality of PvP, in that it will be more fun for more players.
What percentage of deaths are from a doubletap or even a tripletap? What percentage of zippy deaths are from either? What percentage of zippy deaths are actually because of the target themselves? Their builds? Their knowledge of the game? Their skill, actions taken, reactions made?
It's why some are questioning the particular method of the change and what it means for PvP...imho.
Players can hit up PvE in whatever failboat they want and have a blast...that's the design intent. Are they looking to do the same for PvP?
If they want that kind of thing, they should create a separate mode of PvP that offers that sort of thing...imho.
and I'm for a to-hit roll for SNB but only for the CD reduction not the buff stripping.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of anything have a 100% to-hit - not a fan of the lack of hardening (somebody with 250 Sensors should not get jammed as easily as a guy with 0 Sensors) - not a fan of buff stripping (nor of how cleanses work for debuff stripping either).
I think stripping Captain buffs in particular, all of them, is problematic game design.
It allows for the Sci captain, and the Sci captain alone, to hold the only trump card in the entire game vs. the other two captain types.
It allows for the Sci captain to be ironically the most immune to "losing" their "buff" powers since Sensor Scan, Subnuc & Photonic Fleet are not even Buffs that can be stripped.
Whereas the Tac can lose APA, Tac Init, GDF & Tac Fleet and the Eng can lose RSF, EPS, NI & Eng Fleet.
I like the punch counter punch gameplay of it, but I also think that it should only:
A) Strip 1 captain buff maximum, or perhaps be a chance based mechanic to strip 1 or more powers.
or
All Captain buffs have a X # of seconds grace period vs. buff strip.
or
C) Select Captain powers are simply immune to being stripped.
Premade teams often take 3 Scis. It's very strong.
If they drop a Tac and pick up a 4th Sci, it gets stronger.
If they drop a Sci and pick up a Tac or Eng, there is a good chance the team will be weaker.
Sci has its coming shortly I would think all joking aside.
I believe we are likely to see the 5s SNB lockout on the double nuke soon... I mean... at this point I think 5 man sci teams are pretty much the accepted best practice now I think.
Sci has its coming shortly I would think all joking aside.
I believe we are likely to see the 5s SNB lockout on the double nuke soon... I mean... at this point I think 5 man sci teams are pretty much the accepted best practice now I think.
For the love of...
Don't give Jorf any more ammunition than he needs man, I know you guys are both from the wild North...but come on. :P
If they institute a hard lockout on SNB right now in the current game - it would be pretty awful for premade PvP.
Not just premades...but everybody.
Coordinated unable to kill folks would not be that far off from PUGland where there might be three guys shooting at three different butterflies, one guy glaring menacingly at a dandelion, and the fifth guy daydreaming as he watches clouds pass overhead.
I still prefer the idea of the SNB removing a set number of buffs, scaled off of SNB. Coordinated folks could still strip somebody...but Joe Random's not going to strip somebody.
Course, I always package that with my "complaint" about cleanses (c'mon, a TT1 can cleanse an APB3...an HE1 can cleanse an AB3/ES3...they've got Ensign abilities cleansing LCdr/Cmdr stuff - even Captain stuff...meh)...
...but with them doing the 40% cleanse everything DOFF on EPtX use - meh, yeah - it's hard to care.
Fly around in circles, somebody's going to die...whoopee.
If they institute a hard lockout on SNB right now in the current game - it would be pretty awful for premade PvP.
Perhaps thats what needs to happen... PvP needs to hit bottom.
To be honest though I'm seeing less and less reason to not just run 5 man sci teams all the time... I mean we all hate on the fleets that are douche enough to do it... seriously though perhaps its time we just give in and realize Sci is the pvp class.
Perhaps thats what needs to happen... PvP needs to hit bottom.
To be honest though I'm seeing less and less reason to not just run 5 man sci teams all the time... I mean we all hate on the fleets that are douche enough to do it... seriously though perhaps its time we just give in and realize Sci is the pvp class.
This^^
This, however can never happen when 1% shields can block 75% damage.
Dude , don't we already have shield bleed through through the wazoo ?
Why do you want more of the same poison ?
Torps were meant to be used when shields were knocked off line .
If that can no longer happen , or if that is unlikely to happen (due to the passive power creep) -- why do you blame the torps ?
An alternative to your suggestions would be to request a Mk XII of the Breen Set and buff the 2 pice set (which currently offers a +30.5 Transphasic Projectile Damage at Mk XI) .
Thus you'd have a set that buffs Transphasic torpedoes , which are built to function in the way you want all torps to function -- via bleed through .
It allows for the Sci captain to be ironically the most immune to "losing" their "buff" powers since Sensor Scan, Subnuc & Photonic Fleet are not even Buffs that can be stripped.
the debuff is cleared with sci team, and the buff is cleared with snb.
Well as half joking as some of us are ... we are all painfuly aware... that 5 sci in a premade is better then 4.
In light of all tac buffs being turned into pressure skills.... and the only way to spike being comboing up things that work in very hit or miss ways... it seems the most sure fire way to ensure people die is simply being able to quadruple nuke if need be.
Dude , don't we already have shield bleed through through the wazoo ?
Why do you want more of the same poison ?
Torps were meant to be used when shields were knocked off line .
If that can no longer happen , or if that is unlikely to happen (due to the passive power creep) -- why do you blame the torps ?
An alternative to your suggestions would be to request a Mk XII of the Breen Set and buff the 2 pice set (which currently offers a +30.5 Transphasic Projectile Damage at Mk XI) .
Thus you'd have a set that buffs Transphasic torpedoes , which are built to function in the way you want all torps to function -- via bleed through .
oh wow, you're kinda late to the show...
and I was responding to antoniosalieri, where he said.
I do agree it doesn't need to affect torpedo skills... however.....
I do understand that the devs like continuity, so likely if it comes in it will effect all skills.
Perhaps this is the point where we really really need to push them on a Torpedo change.
This is my idea to make Torpedos a viable... and widely used weapon type.
Implement a Sliding scale of Bleed through on shields with less then 30% of there cap.
So Anyone that has more then 30% of there facing will still resist 75% of the torpedo dmg as it is now.
At 28%... it would drop to 73
at 26%... it would drop to 70
at 24%... it would drop to 67
at 22%... it would drop to 64
at 20%... it would drop to 60
at 18%... it would drop to 56
at 16%... it would drop to 52
at 14%... it would drop to 48
at 12%... it would drop to 44
at 10%... it would drop to 40
at 8%... it would drop to 35
at 6%... it would drop to 30
at 4%... it would drop to 25
at 2%... it would drop to 20
Something along those lines... meaning that battering a shield facing down and unloading torps will always do something useful... if a cruiser can keep there facing at the 20% mark it won't be a bunch of one shots... but it sure would make torpedos a lot more attractive. It would also mean people would be much less upset about not being able to back to back HY and Spread patterns anymore.
Because as it stands, in pvp, one can heal their shields way too fast for the torpedoes to hit the hull. That means you lose 75% of the damage (and even higher with resists) with even 1% shields.
I know there's transphasics and the breen set. I have a b'rel and t'varo torpedo boat, but that wasn't the point of my post in this thread.
the debuff is cleared with sci team, and the buff is cleared with snb.
.
That's avoiding the main point.
The point is that SNB's buff strip is unresistable.
That's the most powerful effect anyway, the CD reduction is just a kick to the jewels while the target is already down.
In a better designed environment you wouldn't need 2 or sometimes 3 guys to chain cast a complete and full buff strip on a single target in 10s to score a kill - so I'm not actually in favor of nerfing SNB ... now.
On the other hand, SNB should really not be a complete trump card vs. nearly every other captain skill held by Tac & Eng.
Well as half joking as some of us are ... we are all painfuly aware... that 5 sci in a premade is better then 4.
In light of all tac buffs being turned into pressure skills.... and the only way to spike being comboing up things that work in very hit or miss ways... it seems the most sure fire way to ensure people die is simply being able to quadruple nuke if need be.
It's sad, and it is a half joke, but I do agree with you.
In a better designed environment you wouldn't need 2 or sometimes 3 guys to chain cast a complete and full buff strip on a single target in 10s to score a kill - so I'm not actually in favor of nerfing SNB ... now.
Imagine if cleanses didn't do complete cleanses? A target having a mix of buffs and debuffs, some countering each other out - some applying a buff without any debuff and some applying a debuff without any buff...
Then imagine a SNB that stripped a limited number of buffs (scaling or otherwise)...
It would avoid the situation of needing multiple guys to strip the buffs and the situation of the one random guy stripping all of somebody's buffs.
It would remove the extremes.
There would still be timing, there would still be skill involved, there would still be teamwork involved...but without the extremes.
Comments
yeah...I think that's going to be the next thing... who need's shields anyways...
I doubt anyone here wants to force you to do those things. However, in PvP, for it to be interesting, someone has to die.
I've often had 1v1 battles with a good friend of mine where neither of us could best the other. To be honest, I'd rather have my captain die than stay in that perpetual stalemate - but, like it or not - balance is what gives you that constant tied-game status.
In reality, Escorts should always win, because they're dedicated warships (yes, the same can be said of some cruisers, and those cruisers should win more often also).
Bring back STO's original power drain mechanics.
Bring back the chance BO shut your array down.
And for today, with the ridiculous passives handed out onto everything, those need to be reduced too.
There was more balance in this game in its first 6 months than the travesty that exists now.
Personally, I think you've become too focused on just one thing. The vaping of an opponent in such a way as to prevent them from doing anything. Basically you're making the other players into training dummies that just sit there and take it simply because your builds kill them off before they can even react. What you call skill is really just loading up on the buffs, then waiting for the right moment to strike. Maybe there IS skill to that, but then what skill is there to surviving such an attack if it goes off correctly and you get the crits to happen? You use skill but your opponnent cannot, how is that at all PvP?
Finally, for all you complain of DHCs, DHCs used on competent opponents still do not kill someone in 2 seconds or less. So there is a reaction time, its actually a hit-response situation, not a I hit you and you just take it.
I think the change will improve the quality of PvP, in that it will be more fun for more players.
It's why some are questioning the particular method of the change and what it means for PvP...imho.
Players can hit up PvE in whatever failboat they want and have a blast...that's the design intent. Are they looking to do the same for PvP?
If they want that kind of thing, they should create a separate mode of PvP that offers that sort of thing...imho.
Do you even Science Bro?
My GW3 is OP, it does too much damage. Nerf it!
... oh wait
dont you mean it sucks too hard?
see what i did there!?
:P
-easy to amuse-
Do you even Science Bro?
How about two things?
1) Add a To-Hit Roll for SNB.
2) Add Critical Misses to the game, so you hit yourself.
but with my luck, I would alpha critical miss all the freaking time
lol
and I'm for a to-hit roll for SNB but only for the CD reduction not the buff stripping.
Thissler's thing about a one roll thing got me thinking about it.
1-100, with room for: Critical Miss, Miss, Hit, Critical Hit
And yeah, lol - I was picturing something going wrong with a torp - detonating inside the ship, thus no shield reduction...and...boom!
Course, I do that enough dropping Beach Balls that are popped by FAW before the Beach Ball even appears on my screen. Willard was killed.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of anything have a 100% to-hit - not a fan of the lack of hardening (somebody with 250 Sensors should not get jammed as easily as a guy with 0 Sensors) - not a fan of buff stripping (nor of how cleanses work for debuff stripping either).
Well...to be honest.
I think SNB probably does too much.
I think stripping Captain buffs in particular, all of them, is problematic game design.
It allows for the Sci captain, and the Sci captain alone, to hold the only trump card in the entire game vs. the other two captain types.
It allows for the Sci captain to be ironically the most immune to "losing" their "buff" powers since Sensor Scan, Subnuc & Photonic Fleet are not even Buffs that can be stripped.
Whereas the Tac can lose APA, Tac Init, GDF & Tac Fleet and the Eng can lose RSF, EPS, NI & Eng Fleet.
I like the punch counter punch gameplay of it, but I also think that it should only:
A) Strip 1 captain buff maximum, or perhaps be a chance based mechanic to strip 1 or more powers.
or
or
C) Select Captain powers are simply immune to being stripped.
Premade teams often take 3 Scis. It's very strong.
If they drop a Tac and pick up a 4th Sci, it gets stronger.
If they drop a Sci and pick up a Tac or Eng, there is a good chance the team will be weaker.
Sorry for the off-topic post.
I believe we are likely to see the 5s SNB lockout on the double nuke soon... I mean... at this point I think 5 man sci teams are pretty much the accepted best practice now I think.
For the love of...
Don't give Jorf any more ammunition than he needs man, I know you guys are both from the wild North...but come on. :P
5s is not too short.
If they institute a hard lockout on SNB right now in the current game - it would be pretty awful for premade PvP.
Not just premades...but everybody.
Coordinated unable to kill folks would not be that far off from PUGland where there might be three guys shooting at three different butterflies, one guy glaring menacingly at a dandelion, and the fifth guy daydreaming as he watches clouds pass overhead.
I still prefer the idea of the SNB removing a set number of buffs, scaled off of SNB. Coordinated folks could still strip somebody...but Joe Random's not going to strip somebody.
Course, I always package that with my "complaint" about cleanses (c'mon, a TT1 can cleanse an APB3...an HE1 can cleanse an AB3/ES3...they've got Ensign abilities cleansing LCdr/Cmdr stuff - even Captain stuff...meh)...
...but with them doing the 40% cleanse everything DOFF on EPtX use - meh, yeah - it's hard to care.
Fly around in circles, somebody's going to die...whoopee.
Perhaps thats what needs to happen... PvP needs to hit bottom.
To be honest though I'm seeing less and less reason to not just run 5 man sci teams all the time... I mean we all hate on the fleets that are douche enough to do it... seriously though perhaps its time we just give in and realize Sci is the pvp class.
5x Sci Recluse teams...Romulan...KDF-aligned. :eek:
It does, but if you get SNB'd again, you're only saved from the -RechargeSpeed debuff. The buff strip still happens.
Dude , don't we already have shield bleed through through the wazoo ?
Why do you want more of the same poison ?
Torps were meant to be used when shields were knocked off line .
If that can no longer happen , or if that is unlikely to happen (due to the passive power creep) -- why do you blame the torps ?
An alternative to your suggestions would be to request a Mk XII of the Breen Set and buff the 2 pice set (which currently offers a +30.5 Transphasic Projectile Damage at Mk XI) .
Thus you'd have a set that buffs Transphasic torpedoes , which are built to function in the way you want all torps to function -- via bleed through .
the debuff is cleared with sci team, and the buff is cleared with snb.
.
Do you even Science Bro?
And reading the past two pages , I've come to suspect that what you may have said with irony , others say with a straight face .
Or in other words , they promote the "let's turn Sci into the next Eng story" . :rolleyes:
Keep on yapping guys , keep on yapping ... .:(
In light of all tac buffs being turned into pressure skills.... and the only way to spike being comboing up things that work in very hit or miss ways... it seems the most sure fire way to ensure people die is simply being able to quadruple nuke if need be.
oh wow, you're kinda late to the show...
and I was responding to antoniosalieri, where he said.
Because as it stands, in pvp, one can heal their shields way too fast for the torpedoes to hit the hull. That means you lose 75% of the damage (and even higher with resists) with even 1% shields.
I know there's transphasics and the breen set. I have a b'rel and t'varo torpedo boat, but that wasn't the point of my post in this thread.
That's avoiding the main point.
The point is that SNB's buff strip is unresistable.
That's the most powerful effect anyway, the CD reduction is just a kick to the jewels while the target is already down.
In a better designed environment you wouldn't need 2 or sometimes 3 guys to chain cast a complete and full buff strip on a single target in 10s to score a kill - so I'm not actually in favor of nerfing SNB ... now.
On the other hand, SNB should really not be a complete trump card vs. nearly every other captain skill held by Tac & Eng.
It's sad, and it is a half joke, but I do agree with you.
Imagine if cleanses didn't do complete cleanses? A target having a mix of buffs and debuffs, some countering each other out - some applying a buff without any debuff and some applying a debuff without any buff...
Then imagine a SNB that stripped a limited number of buffs (scaling or otherwise)...
It would avoid the situation of needing multiple guys to strip the buffs and the situation of the one random guy stripping all of somebody's buffs.
It would remove the extremes.
There would still be timing, there would still be skill involved, there would still be teamwork involved...but without the extremes.