test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Know your role Jabroni! (A guide to career abilities in organized PvP matches)
ussultimatum
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
This is a guide and an analysis of career abilities focusing on Space PvP for organized teams.
A note on PUG Teams vs. Organized (PUGmade/Premade) Teams in PvP:
I'm sure more than a few players feel the PUG experience is an important experience and my intent is not to marginalize those players, perhaps someone would like to pick up the torch and write a similar rating system with that in mind. A lot of this is still applicable anyway, although the less coordinated your team is the stronger Tac will seem and the less powerful Sci will appear. The truth is actually the opposite.
If you are a vet PvPer, this is all going to be pretty obvious to you. Hint: You are not my intended audience.
I chose my number rankings based on my own experience in the game, and chose numbers according to "feel".
Each power has been ranked on a scale of 1 (the lowest) to 10 (the highest). Scores were given based on the overall value the power has for a player functioning as part of a whole team.
This last part is a critical element, if you do not play organized team scenarios some of this might not be true for you.
Careers are listed in the order they appear at character creation.
A note on PUG Teams vs. Organized (PUGmade/Premade) Teams in PvP:
I'm sure more than a few players feel the PUG experience is an important experience and my intent is not to marginalize those players, perhaps someone would like to pick up the torch and write a similar rating system with that in mind. A lot of this is still applicable anyway, although the less coordinated your team is the stronger Tac will seem and the less powerful Sci will appear. The truth is actually the opposite.
If you are a vet PvPer, this is all going to be pretty obvious to you. Hint: You are not my intended audience.
I chose my number rankings based on my own experience in the game, and chose numbers according to "feel".
Each power has been ranked on a scale of 1 (the lowest) to 10 (the highest). Scores were given based on the overall value the power has for a player functioning as part of a whole team.
This last part is a critical element, if you do not play organized team scenarios some of this might not be true for you.
Careers are listed in the order they appear at character creation.
- Engineer
- Science
- Tactical
Post edited by ussultimatum on
0
Comments
The Engineer has a suite of primarily self-only mitigation powers, and as such their role on a premade team is often questionable. They are self-reliant, and can be useful to PUG teams, but self-reliance is not particularly a requirement of premade teams due to cross-healing. The Eng brings nothing to help score kills, and does not have any particular abilities to deny or assist on kills on allies either.
This relegates them to a low threat status, and consequently ignorable. Most premade teams will not bring an Engineer and a Sci captain is almost always a better choice. This is pretty unfortunate, and should be rectified.
That being said, the meta has shifted to huge spike and cloaked ships so perhaps there are some niche areas for an Eng that the player base has yet to fully explore.
The diametric opposite to the Tactical captain, the Engineer is also a one trick pony (self buffing mitigation) - unfortunately that trick requires people to shoot you, and nothing the Engineer has can force or convince your human opponents to do this. The reality is that the Engineer was designed as a quasi-tank for PvE with little thought given to PvP.
Rotate Shield Frequency:
RSF is a solid self-buff, with good uptime. Suffers from the same issue many Eng powers suffer from in that it is a self only buff which means the opposing team can simply switch targets (if they were ever firing at the Eng at all) or SNB it off. In addition, with current resistance levels from fleet/rep gear, etc., the amount you gain from RSF is not as useful as it appears on its face and is probably better post-SNB strip if anything. This skill is easily trumped by SNB if used too soon by the Engineer. Making this power usable on allies would turn this from an OK skill to a very good skill.
Tier = Lt.
CD = 90s
10 Point Scale = 5
Self Only
EPS Power transfer:
EPS has been Heavily marginalized by multiple sources of added subsystem power, and is completely negligible as a concern to the opposite team.
Tier = Ltc.
CD = 120s
10 Point Scale = 2
Self or 1 Ally
Nadeon Inversion:
The benefit is decent, if not amazing. However for being a career skill this power should negate all drain, especially drain attacks. Making this power an AoE (with a lesser effect on allies perhaps) would turn this from a mediocre skill into a very good one. This is another ability that has seen its effects ported to items/consoles.
Tier = Cmd
CD = 180s
10 Point Scale = 4
Self Only
Miracle Worker:
A significant heal that repairs downed subsystems. Healing without resistance and greater debuff cleansing makes this less powerful than it should be, falls into the same issue as RSF in that self-only means it is completely ignorable by the opposite team. Changing this from a self-only to a self or ally power, along with greater debuff cleansing and resistance added could turn this into a very good power. The new trait seems like a step in the right direction, but it still requires the opposite team to want to shoot an Engineer (who is already borderline invincible) in the first place. I've given this skill a rating of 6 due to the new trait.
Tier = Cpt.
CD = 240s
10 Point Scale = 6
Self Only
Engineering Fleet:
Due to cool down period, hull resistance diminishing returns, and weakness of hull tanking in comparison to shield tanking this skill is of low overall value, especially compared to other fleet skills. Still, it is a force multiplier which makes it generally better than most of the Engineer's self-only powers.
Tier = VA
CD = 300s
10 Point Scale = 4
Force Multiplier
Science captains are often the most valuable units on a premade team, their role is both debuffing/control and team-wide mitigation. Most premade teams will bring 3 Science captains, and some might even be tempted to bring 5 Science captains if there wasn't an unofficial agreement of "no more than 3 of any captain type".
The reason for this whether spoken or not, is because the Science captain is a force multiplier.
4 out of 5 (and arguably, all 5 of them are) of their career abilities are force multipliers, and generally speaking no self-buffing archetype in any MMO will ever stack as well as a force multiplier.
The Science captain is not a "jack of all trades". The Science captain is the force multiplication specialist bringing to bear some of the most powerful and critical career abilities to any premade match, with Subnucleonic Beam being "the one power to rule them all".
PUG teams rarely take complete advantage of the Sci captain's full suite of powers, so Sci captains are often perceived to be weaker than they truly are and undervalued. Once your team is organized, multiple Sci captains stacking & staggering their powers creates the backbone of any good team.
Sensor Scan:
An AoE resistance debuff (force multiplier) that is based on Aux power, stresses one of the more important cleanse/shield heal resources (Sci Team) on multiple targets at once and also helps to counter cloaking. Has a very high uptime, and frequent use due to low cooldown.
Tier = Lt.
CD = 90s
10 Point Scale = 8
Force Multiplier
Subnucleonic Beam:
The undisputed, single most powerful ability in PvP. This definition holds true in the literal sense as it can strip other Captain buffs from any target . It is the single most powerful force multiplier in the entire game through removing defense buffs and it can be used offensively to set up kills or defensively to neuter the opposing team's damage dealers.
Tier = Ltc.
CD = 120s
10 Point Scale = 10
Force Multiplier
Scattering Field:
An AoE force multiplier (buff) based off of Aux power, tends to do Eng Fleets job better than Eng fleet. Has a good uptime and multiple Scis working in tandem can chain cast it for extended periods of coverage. Only the range keeps it from scoring higher, but with it's solid duration AoE coverage and fire and forgetusage, it is an excellent tool in the current meta-game of decloak alpha strikes.
Tier = Cmd.
CD = 180s
10 Point Scale = 7
Force Multiplier
Photonic Fleet:
This is the only weak power in the Sci captain's arsenal. It creates spam pets, and is now even spammier than previously due to the new trait. The pets are generally weak, causing a distraction or occasionally an annoying Dreadnought class ship. Probably the most useful feature is the UI or sensory overload that 3 captains rotating this can cause on the opposing team.
Tier = Cpt.
CD = 240s
10 Point Scale = 3
*Special Pets, technically a force multiplier as it benefits the entire force
Sci Fleet:
Arguably the best of the "Fleet" abilities as it provides a large, group wide shield resistance buff and can be chain cast by multiple users for extended periods of coverage. Only its long cooldown keeps it from scoring a bit higher - something all Fleet abilities have as a balancing factor.
Tier = VA
CD = 300s
10 Point Scale = 7
Force Multiplier
The Tactical Captain's role on a Premade PvP team is damage dealing (duh). Without the Tactical Captain's career abilities, it is unlikely most team's would be able to score consistent and repeated kills in the current passive healing/resist laden environment as the window for a kill is anywhere from 10s to as low as 5s in some situations.
Most premade teams will not usually bring more than 2 tactical captains. While they are important for kill scoring, they can also be a liability due to lack of mitigation powers and overall lack of force multiplication means they do not stack very well.
Tac is a one trick pony, but it is an extremely good trick.
Attack Pattern Alpha:
This is the premier Tactical damage skill and one of two abilities (The other is Subnuc) that still allow teams to score kills on consistent cycles. This skill works perfectly, is powerful but is also controllable by the opposing team through a number of methods (not the least of which is SNB).
Tier = Lt.
CD = 90s
10 Point Scale = 9
Self Only
Fire on My Mark:
What should be an excellent single target force multiplier with a 30s duration, in reality rarely if ever lasts more than 5s on any single target with the heavy prevalence of 66% percent uptime for Tac team and even worse if players use TT to cross-buff each other. That being said sometimes even a 5s window debuff is enough to assist on a kill
Attack Pattern Beta is mechanically better than Fire on My Mark as it is up more frequently and applies both a buff to the user's weapons as well as a debuff to the target. This means that even though TT can clear it, the user is still capable of re-applying it.
Regardless, a well placed and timed FOMM can help turn a good attack into a quick kill.
Tier = Ltc.
CD = 120s
10 Point Scale = 5
Force Multiplier
Tactical Initiative:
Due to the prevalence of CD reduction doffs, and built in boff power redundancy in most Escorts (the Tactical captain's most synergistic combination) this skill has little to no actual value for most escorts, with some application and use for asymmetrical spike builds or Tac station starved offense focused cruisers.
Tier = Cmd.
CD = 180s
10 Point Scale = 2 to 4 depending
Self or Ally
Go Down Fighting:
Now permanently locked to 50% hull requirement, yet also remains on a 4 minute cooldown. Usually SNB'd off and no longer available for an initial big alpha strike nor as an "as needed" boost to help score a kill that might not happen otherwise. It Still packs a large damage boost, with a trait that provides resistance - but also still very vulnerable to subnuc and now an even more attractive target.
Tier = Capt.
CD = 240s
10 Point Scale = 6
Self Only
Tactical Fleet:
This buff does not seem to be working correctly and is only applying a 22% bonus instead of the listed 30%. A useful ability, works as a force multiplier but is also limited due to the extreme cooldown.
Tier = VA
CD = 300s
10 Point Scale = 6
Force Multiplier
nice guide otherwise, this should replace cryptics own in game documentation for space combat. Maybe an internal memo to sytems and QNA...
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I see your point, but the reality is that we are all human and just players.
It's quite a lot to ask, or beg really, someone to rep & maintain a full premade ready Engineer.
It's one thing to recognize an issue, and another to force yourself to use completely inferior mechanics in a game environment that basically forces you to require multiple SNBs.
To be honest the meta-game has shifted so severely that we are bordering on a second Tac being superfluous as well. Long live Sci!
I appreciate the feedback though.
sure its also a lot to ask for people not to bring their pvp engs which they invested heavily in term of time and gear. Its seems even more to ask of people not to bring 5xsci because as a matter of personal preference one prefers that combo of 3xsci and 2x tac, which Jorf declared a transcendental quasi religious ideal, that can't face the heresy of full sci teams.
you and your fleet has a style they like. Nothing wrong with that. But just scrap the justification in terms of meta development, and how much it is too ask of you, and stick with the simple truth: "We like it that way, and rather have others go through the hassle then ourselves.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Edited & fixed, thank you Scurry!
Now i undertand why Havam recommend me start a Sci-healer and not Eng-Healer!!
Good post thanks
It is a problem, of course, but they're content to set in their high tower and go "but the engie can draw aggro and tank", as if that's actually remotely a valid role in PVP and endgame PvE where all the NPC's can oneshot you regardless of what class you are.
I'm inclined to like the engineer because I play one, but I also see all the potential it could have, but doesn't.
If Cryptic ever released a re-career token? I'd use it in a heartbeat.
I'm sadly inclined to agree.
I also like engineers, a Fed Engy was my first, and main toon. Won't ever change. But I also know that his role is so small anymore, he isn't needed whatsoever.
If they made a re-career token, I would also probably use it. Make him into a sci most likely.
I love when people claim captain class doesn't matter much because the "only difference is 5 powers". I'm going to start sending them to this thread.
Nadion Inversion:
The utility of this ability is slightly diminished because it doesn't actually take care of the one source of power drain that is likely to completely shut down a player: power siphon drones. In addition, because of the strong resists provided by 9 ranks in Power Insulators, NI isn't normally needed against most sources of power drain.
Miracle Worker:
If you're giving it a 6 only because of the new trait, I'd suggest that you revise that downward. Although the new trait is, on paper, very useful, it suffers from one huge mechanical flaw: it can proc during MW's 1s activation time, and go on cooldown without actually refreshing MW. (i.e. You hit MW, and in that 1s activation time you take a huge amount of damage: Grace Under Fire goes on 1:30 cooldown, and MW goes to 4min cooldown.) This is a bigger problem because you're likely to use MW when you're taking a lot of fire; that's exactly when this bug is likely to occur and deny you the additional MW you need.
Engineering Fleet:
The main problem with this ability is that the additional hull resistance provided hit the diminishing returns curve of hull resist, especially if the player or his/her allies are already using multiple armor consoles. Also, the additional +16 Warp Core Potential skill it provides is of very little use; it translates to an additional +0.8 power in all subsystems for all teammates.
Scattering Field:
It's not quite fire-and-forget; because it's a maintained ability, it's vulnerable to stuns/disables such as PSW. These tend to be quite common in the metagame today.
Photonic Fleet:
Although you are correct in that this is usually little more than a distraction, occasionally it can be an extra source of tractors against annoying targets. However, who the pets attack seems to be determined by normal PvE aggro mechanics.
Nice work putting this together though, Ultimatum; a guide like this might have pushed me to keep my main as a Fed Sci instead of rolling the Fed Eng that we all know and love. :P
That combined with the ability to throw RSF onto an ally could make Engineers a staple in premades again.
As it stands, Fleet Shields and T4 Omega have made RSF utterly redundant. Nadion is outclassed and bypassed altogether thanks to Marion and Omega Weapons Amplifier. EPS isn't really needed due to people having crazy high power levels all around.
I know the point of this thread wasn't a "fix Engineers" post, but I had to throw that out there
Hi Ren, glad you chimed in.
I currently have NI scored at 4, mostly because it at least does something.
If you were to downgrade it, what do you think would be more accurate?
TBH, when I first wrote the guide I had it at 5, but I've run into some Engineers that are borderline invincible in the queues.
So I gave it a 6, which is also what I have given to GDF (hard locked to 50% hull, unchangeable 4 minute cooldown) and to Tac Fleet.
Same as NI, what score do you think is more accurate?
Agreed, I took that into account. I gave it a 4, because it is still a force multiplier and also because in the current game there are so many consoles to slot you can't actually say that your team is going to have 4 other guys loaded to the gills with neutrons.
This is probably the one I'm least flexible on in terms of my own opinion of ranking.
Good points - I'll update the post, but I still think its about a 7.
Do they actually tractor?
Bort told me once, that they are photonic and should not have effects like weapon procs etc. I'm not sure if that translates to TBs or other powers.
Can anyone confirm for me the possible effects of the various faction's photonic fleets?
Thanks bud.
Thanks veg, I appreciate it.
I think it's more than just the Dreadnought, I've seen a Cruiser do it too.
Also Illcadia said that things in PvE oneshot, yup they do, but any decent tank can survive what oneshots lesser builds with at least 30% hull. Having said that you only would need 1 tank and more is just a waste of DPS leading to lower completion times.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Throw the eng in a Temporal, bug or what ever if there is a 1 min requirement. Make a more tanky escort. I feel that Engineer is the lowest of the three classes and cruiser is the lowest of the ship types, with carriers being more meaningful, especially with elite pets on the way.
It makes you think the Engineer Cruiser captains rode the short shuttle to the academy. Of course my Eng Oddy is my favorite to fly from my preferences, it just pains me to see it a drag on my team and I will bring the tac or the sci in a real big match just to not burden by buddies.
I will say that my Cruiser ENg comes more in handy in Cap and Hold. And situational play would be a major step to solving the role of the Tank that Needed a Team.
That sounds fair to me, and is in the spirit of why I wrote this.
So yes, go for it.
Keep in mind this is a guide for premade matches, based on the current metagame.
The metagame could shift and in 6 months things could be different.
Where they are right now, you do not really need a "more tanky escort".
What you need are escorts that kill the hell out of stuff once that stuff is SNBd.
You need escorts to be a real threat, and you have to accept some risk that they might be targeted - but you also have to have faith in your healers and their cross-heal timing.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
yeah...my fed engineer is now a kerrat Farmgineer and my kdf engineer is now a kar'fi drain/spam/annoying build. It's just about the only thing one can do now with them in pvp...
Well, that depends.
If you are there tossing out heals, and keeping them alive, then it's in their best interests and smart gameplay for them to try and keep within your arms reach.
Some keybinds for things like "Extends to TRIBBLE please be within 5km" might work.
Ask Renim for advice on that.
Regardless, when premades (like my fleet) bring a heavy ship like a Recluse it is usually kitted out as a monster healer. We all know its our priority to not stray too far from that player. He gave up mobility to bring us the heaviest amount of healing there is, the least we can do is work around his ships mobility issues.
Well, perhaps I'm not the best to ask about scoring NI; I've never really experimented with its usefulness in boosting a beamboat's damage capabilities. However, in terms of resisting other sources of drain, it's actually less useful than EPS Power Transfer: if you pop NI, you're still going to suffer some minor power loss, but if you use EPS on yourself you're probably actually going to get more power in your subsystems than normal. (Plus, EPS is on a shorter cooldown.)
As a general note, I see that you haven't scored any captain ability at 1 or 3 (okay, Tac Init falls here). You've got the full 1 to 10 scale to rate things on; use it! :P
In my opinion, it's effectively on par with RSF, especially since (with the trait) they both operate on a 1:30 cooldown. Actually, RSF is a better skill to pop right after an SNB; MW can only be used effectively with other resist/heal skills, otherwise the extra hp is gone too quickly.
If it helps, it's like a BFI + SDO doffs, except that its cooldown is half again as long, restores less shields, but also heals a chunk of hull as well.
Your guide, your score.
Fed photonic pets, at least, definitely tractor. I think Cruisers and Dreadnoughts are the major sources. I think the Sci ships and the Escorts do some minor shenanigans as well; I'd have to test more to make sure.
If only all pugs could realize this. :P
Uh, well, from my experience the only thing you can really do is to yell at the pugs in team chat to "STAY CLOSE FOR HEALS". If that fails and they start going down, pop evasive and charge after them -- although that usually has a good chance that they'll die before you can reach them. (The Oddy is a fat and slow tub that refuses to move anywhere.)