Its not apa that causes the problem by itself. It is the ap omega and beta, the decloak, and for some eptw, that make the standard kinetic damage and effected by global bonus damage so toxic when you try to make sci boff damage balaced.
APO
APB
Decloak
Crit%
These are all captain type agnostic.
Should these no longer work for Sci captains either?
I mean, why should APO 3 work as well for a Sci captain or Eng captain with 9 ranks in Starship Attack patterns?
Why should AMBUSH be +25% damage for any captain type?
Why should 9 Ranks in Projectiles & 9 Ranks in Projectile Spec +20% crit builds be an option for a Sci/Tvaro running a brutal Transphasic build? (Hi f00k!)
Maybe we should just shut off Critical %, APO/B/D (after-all, anyone can take ranks in Startship Attack Patterns), Ambush Decloaking - and remove all these options that Science captains can also use to power their Sci abilities.
Why should Sci captains be able to get 20% crit that is career type agnostic? :rolleyes:
Or maybe Sensor Scan should only debuff vs. damaging Sci powers and not work for Cannons, Beams, Torpedoes, Mines, Pets, etc.
I don't believe in any of the above, this post is simply to embody the sillyness of the idea that Tacs doing damage with sci powers is inherently "bad", or that +damage/-res powers should not be usable with Sci powers.
However I wouldn't want any captain using Gravity Well 3 to be outdone by a Tac captain using Gravity Well 1, comparing just those boff powers. The Tac also gets more weapon slots in his Tac ship so he likely still does more damage overall. But at least the GW3 part of the Sci ship should have an edge over GW1 for any captain willing to try a Science ship.
Should these no longer work for Sci captains either?
I mean, why should APO 3 work as well for a Sci captain or Eng captain with 9 ranks in Starship Attack patterns?
Why should AMBUSH be +25% damage for any captain type?
Why should 9 Ranks in Projectiles & 9 Ranks in Projectile Spec +20% crit builds be an option for a Sci/Tvaro running a brutal Transphasic build? (Hi f00k!)
Maybe we should just shut off Critical %, APO/B/D (after-all, anyone can take ranks in Startship Attack Patterns), Ambush Decloaking - and remove all these options that Science captains can also use to power their Sci abilities.
Why should Sci captains be able to get 20% crit that is career type agnostic? :rolleyes:
Or maybe Sensor Scan should only debuff vs. damaging Sci powers and not work for Cannons, Beams, Torpedoes, Mines, Pets, etc.
I don't believe in any of the above, this post is simply to embody the sillyness of the idea that Tacs doing damage with sci powers is inherently "bad", or that +damage/-res powers should not be usable with Sci powers.
For the same reason sci powers cannot crit. Look sci boff ability damage has always been either pathetic or OP after years of tweaks to the basic numbers. And they will always be thatt way until they change the number of things effecting them.
My issue isn't the current game (I have a tac in a vesta. Love a APA buffed quantum phaser). My issue is how science powers are balanced. No science powers will be buffed to do enough damage because its's balanced around a tac captain stacking buffs. A tac in a Ha'nom, for example can do a decloak GW for more damage than a science captain. Sure a science captain can get 3 stacks of CoE, but in order to get those stacks he has to take energy damage for enough time to get 3 stacks then cloak. Since LoR, however, you have to fully cloak to get the decloak bonus. Doing so makes the science captain lose at least one stack of CoE. The tac captain in this case does way more damage with GW then.
This is what the damage of GW is balanced on. If it wasn't able to be buffed with crazy high numbers, they would allow it to be buffed with high aux and particle generators, but its not now, which gives the other two careers a disadvantage. This game in pve, mostly comes down to dealing lots of damage, a little CC (sometimes), and APB. A tac captain can do all that and better.
What's wrong with not letting APA and other damage buffs not buff exotic damage, then buff exotic damage to do more damage? Everyone (very few don"t) says science powers are under powered, but when someone points out why, you get " No No No, don't change the game."
I'm not angry or anything. Everyone in this thread has well thought out arguments. I also know this is an old argument. I use to love the idea of APA and other tac buffs buffing science powers, but the game has changed. All of the power creep has been to energy weapons, making everything else not so desirable.
I don't remember if that's actually correct (TBR I believe can crit, or at least it did) - I will take your word for it and let's say that they don't.
I'll say your statement is still irrelevant.
A Sci captain can still hop into a warbird, can still get APO 3 + Ambush + 15 to 20% crit chance to all of their DHCs or Beams, or Torpedoes.
A good Sci/Escort can solo an entire flank of NWS or be the floater, they can solo an entire section of an Elite STF and they can duel the hell out of a Tac/Escort of equal skill as the Sci holds all of the trump cards.
You'll notice all of the Tac boff powers are basically some way to power up a weapon or damage in general.
So should all +damage & weapon buffing, +crit bonuses only work for Tacs?
Should Sensor Scan debuff not count towards Energy/Kinetic weapon damage? After all, its a Sci power, maybe it should only debuff for Sci powers damage.
A good Sci/Escort can solo an entire flank of NWS or be the floater, they can solo an entire section of an Elite STF and they can duel the hell out of a Tac/Escort of equal skill as the Sci holds all of the trump cards.
You'll notice all of the Tac boff powers are basically some way to power up a weapon or damage in general.
So should all +damage & weapon buffing, +crit bonuses only work for Tacs?
In order for a sci escort to do the same base damage as a tac escort, the captain skills have to be spec'd the same (eg, same skill points in Attack Patterns and Weapons and so forth), meaning they have no skill points for actual science skills. Yeah its theoretically possible, but you're deep into the theoretical vs the practical. 99.9% of sci captains dont do the same base damage as tac captains.
In order for a sci escort to do the same base damage as a tac escort, the captain skills have to be spec'd the same (eg, same skill points in Attack Patterns and Weapons and so forth), meaning they have no skill points for actual science skills. Yeah its theoretically possible, but you're deep into the theoretical vs the practical. 99.9% of sci captains dont do the same base damage as tac captains.
In order for a tactical captain to be effective with Sci powers they need to spec into Sci skills.
You know like graviton gens and particle gens.
So what's the difference?
Nothing, it's just more anti-tac rhetoric.
For the record, there are enough points to go around to spec into a wide variety of things for every captain, you should be doing this anyway. With heavy specialization of skills depending on the ship you intend to fly.
Let's try harder guys, why should Sensor Scan be allowed to debuff targets in an AoE for Energy & Projectile Weapons to do more damage?
The way I look at it.. there are ALOT Of variables to consider when it comes to Damage Dealing Powers and Tacs vs Sci..
Let's look at the Damage dealing Power List (Leaving consoles out), in no particular Order (These would be classified as Exotic Damage)
Eject Warp Plasma (Plasma Damage)
Aceton Beam (Plasma Damage)
Photonic Shockwave (Kinetic Damage)
Tractor Beam (Kinetic Damage)
Tractor Beam Repulsors (Kinetic Damage)
Aux Based, Feedback Pulse (Untyped I think?)
Aux Based, Gravity Well (Kinetic Damage)
Aux Based, Tyken's Rift (Yes it does Exotic damage) (Kinetic Damage)
Tactical powers that effect these:
Attack Pattern Alpha
Go down Fighting
Tactical Team
Fire on my mark (Debuffs increase damage, so counts)
Science Powers That Effect these:
Sensor Scan
(In a way Subnucleonic Beam because its a Debuff)
Traits that can effect these:
Astrophysicist (+10 Particle Gen boost)
Science Officer Exclusive: Conservation of Energy (Boosts Exotic Damage)
Inspirational Leader
Doffs:
Romulan only: After a Singularity power usage, gain a buff that increases Exotic damage for x seconds. (Don't recall the name or how long)
And then we have Cloak, and Ambush Boffs/Romulan Traits that can further increase the damage.
So, if you were to build a Tactical to fly a Fleet Ha'nom (Romulan science ship with a Battle Cloak) vs a Science Officer flying a Fleet Ha'nom, And both players had Astrophyscist, and Inspirational Leader, the Science officer having Conservation of Energy, and all gear was equal (same Deflector/Consoles/Set Bonuses (if any), and other non mentioned variables)) which would come out on top in the damage? Currently Tactical Officer in terms of Damage. Because yes, they can increase the damage effects to some times Extreme Values (FBP 3 Being the BEST example)
Now if they were to change so that the Tactical Captian Abilities no longer could effect Exotic Damage, it would then be the Sci who could produce the best Exotic Damage, because they get the Conservation of Energy Trait, and as stated a high powered Aux science user could debuff a target better then a Tac can.
How ever it then comes into question what is Cryptic's desire for powers like the above listed? Do they want a Tac to get that greater feeling of oomph when using Exotic Damage powers, or do they want Exotic Damage based powers to be in the best hands when used by a Science officer?
So far it seems like they want to give Tactical officers that oomph feeling when in a Science heavy based ship.
I mean lets face it, If you were to take that Ha'nom, make it into a Transphasic Bomber, using a Tac with 125 Aux, whos to say you couldn't produce some kills that a Sci can't do since not only are you boosting the damage your weapons are dealing, you also can take advantage of not needing weapon power, and further boost Exotic Damage dealing skills better then a Sci can because of your damage boosting skills. Decloak bonus then just becomes gravy.. And because of a Tactical's ability to improve Crit, you give those Exotic Damage effects even greater damage. Because yes, those powers can and do Crit. But it becomes more noticable in the hands of a tac.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
And because of a Tactical's ability to improve Crit, you give those Exotic Damage effects even greater damage. Because yes, those powers can and do Crit. But it becomes more noticable in the hands of a tac.
Well, at the same time even a Fed Sci can run...
+3% Crit Rom Passive
+1.8% Zero Point
+0.92% Borg
+0.76% Tachyokinetic
+2% 9 Ranks in Weapon Specialization
8.48% chance to crit
Add 2 Embassy boffs?
12.48%
vs. Tac 17.48% with APA up.
A Rom Sci?
Add 11.5% to 8.48
Sitting 19.98 or nearly 20% critical chance for a Sci captain.
Where once Tac had the market on Crits cornered, this is no longer the case.
Sure, the Tac can get more. 5% more.
But 25% vs. 20% is not as big as before when all we had was the Weapon Specialization and Borg console.
2.92% vs. 7.92%
Right now any career can come packing at least 10% crit, with Romulans cornering the market at a whopping 20% crit.
So in fact you can actually build a Rom Sci or Rom Eng with more Crit than even a Fed Tac with APA is capable of.
For the same reason sci powers cannot crit. Look sci boff ability damage has always been either pathetic or OP after years of tweaks to the basic numbers. And they will always be thatt way until they change the number of things effecting them.
I've had my tractor beam, photonic shockwave, and gravity well Critically hit before. It's not frequent, but they do Critically hit.
I don't care about careers, I have a ton of toons. This has nothing to do with tacs, scis, etc etc. The only thing I want are exotic boff abilities that deal respectable damage.
The only way that can happen is if they remove some of the things that are effecting the damage potential. They are terrified that a GW3 with a .25 skill mod and 1% aux mod would be able to kill NPC destroyers. They aren't even considering (AFAIK) the fact I can then nearly double that number with decloak and other universal +Damage abilities followed up with a full AUX sensor scan(or FOMM) +APB possibly to double that number again.
They have tweaked the numbers how many times and yet have always failed to make exotic boff ability damage both viable and not OP. Expecting them to repeat the same activity and it having a different result is insanity. Kinda like me bothering to participate in this debate I guess....
ussultimatum you're missing the point more than my [dmg]x4 quad cannons would miss a JHAS if I was dumb enough to try them.
All things being equal, same ship, same stupidly powerful romulan boffs, same doffs, same crit and damage boosting consoles (particle gens, ZP console, assimilated console etc) and everything else including skill points (though a tactical captain would have to max attack patterns but 6 points is advisable to most classes) bar the captain this is how it is stacked for boosting damage.
Tactical captain:
Attack Pattern Alpha: +50% dmg, +5% CrtH, +20% CrtD
Fire On My Mark: -41 damage resistance
Tactical Fleet: +20% dmg
Go Down Fighting: +25-100% damage with +0-30 Damage resistance.
Total: +70-170% damage and -41 damage resistance.
Science Captain:
Sensor Scan: -20-70 damage resistance highly dependant on aux.
Subnucleonic Beam: Removes currently applied buffs and increases recharge times.
Total: -70 damage resistance
Engineering Captain:
-
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the ability gets balanced so it's not OP at +170% damage and -41 DR, which only 1 captain type can achieve, then the other two captain types will end up with an ability that is a lot less damaging than is useful.
If you remove the tactical captains buffs from buffing science abilities then what do you end up with?
Tactical Captain:
FOMM: -41 Damage resistance
+ 70-170% more damage from weapon
Science Captain:
Sensor Scan: -20-70 Damage resistance, highly dependant on aux
Engineering Captain:
-
Engineering captains still lose out but it's not by such a wide margin and we don't have to have abilities that are p*** poor for all but a stupidly high buff stacking tactical captain. We can have abilities that perform well for those that invest in them regardless of career but tactical captains will still get a lot more out of it as they have the ridiculously high weapon damage the other two captains are not capable of.
The arguments are not there to single out tactical captains because we have beef with them. It's there because only they can reach the extreme levels of buffs needed to get good (note good, not OP or even great) damage out of these abilities which have a damage component for a reason.
If you want to start on this childish "Should Sensor Scan debuff not count towards Energy/Kinetic weapon damage? After all, its a Sci power, maybe it should only debuff for Sci powers damage." thing then you really are plucking at straws. As said it's not about picking on the tacticals for doing what they can do, it's about the huge disparity between usefulness of these abilities between tactical captains and the other two classes.
Note: Yes I am aware tactical fleet affects the whole team, in a co-ordinated effort a science captain could benefit from that but only if a tactical captain was present and it would be at that captains discretion and timing therefore cannot really be counted upon all the time.
I would complain about the ludicrous damage tactical captains can buff weapon damage to but weapons for all classes are competitive. A science and engineering captain may not get as large numbers but they do get respectable damage and enough to be useful. In fact the engineer can buff them by reducing weapon drain with nadeon inversion so everyone gets a decent buff for that.
Notice I say useful and that is really what the thread is about, "Thus the tipping point: At what point does a damage-dealing power (any kind of power, not just sci BOFF skills) go from being just simply useful for it's damage, to suddenly overpowered due to tac buffs?"
We've seen this with damage from:
Eject Warp Plasma
Feedback Pulse
Gravity Well
Photonic Shockwave
Tricobalt mines + Dispersal patterns
Tractor Beam repulsors
Those are just off the top of my head, I am sure there are more.
ussultimatum you're missing the point more than my [dmg]x4 quad cannons would miss a JHAS if I was dumb enough to try them.
All things being equal, same ship, same stupidly powerful romulan boffs, same doffs, same crit and damage boosting consoles (particle gens, ZP console, assimilated console etc) and everything else including skill points (though a tactical captain would have to max attack patterns but 6 points is advisable to most classes) bar the captain this is how it is stacked for boosting damage.
Tactical captain:
Attack Pattern Alpha: +50% dmg, +5% CrtH, +20% CrtD
Fire On My Mark: -41 damage resistance
Tactical Fleet: +20% dmg
Go Down Fighting: +25-100% damage with +0-30 Damage resistance.
Total: +70-170% damage and -41 damage resistance.
Science Captain:
Sensor Scan: -20-70 damage resistance highly dependant on aux.
Subnucleonic Beam: Removes currently applied buffs and increases recharge times.
Total: -70 damage resistance
Engineering Captain:
-
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the ability gets balanced so it's not OP at +170% damage and -41 DR, which only 1 captain type can achieve, then the other two captain types will end up with an ability that is a lot less damaging than is useful.
If you remove the tactical captains buffs from buffing science abilities then what do you end up with?
Tactical Captain:
FOMM: -41 Damage resistance
+ 70-170% more damage from weapon
Science Captain:
Sensor Scan: -20-70 Damage resistance, highly dependant on aux
Engineering Captain:
-
Engineering captains still lose out but it's not by such a wide margin and we don't have to have abilities that are p*** poor for all but a stupidly high buff stacking tactical captain. We can have abilities that perform well for those that invest in them regardless of career but tactical captains will still get a lot more out of it as they have the ridiculously high weapon damage the other two captains are not capable of.
The arguments are not there to single out tactical captains because we have beef with them. It's there because only they can reach the extreme levels of buffs needed to get good (note good, not OP or even great) damage out of these abilities which have a damage component for a reason.
If you want to start on this childish "Should Sensor Scan debuff not count towards Energy/Kinetic weapon damage? After all, its a Sci power, maybe it should only debuff for Sci powers damage." thing then you really are plucking at straws. As said it's not about picking on the tacticals for doing what they can do, it's about the huge disparity between usefulness of these abilities between tactical captains and the other two classes.
Note: Yes I am aware tactical fleet affects the whole team, in a co-ordinated effort a science captain could benefit from that but only if a tactical captain was present and it would be at that captains discretion and timing therefore cannot really be counted upon all the time.
I would complain about the ludicrous damage tactical captains can buff weapon damage to but weapons for all classes are competitive. A science and engineering captain may not get as large numbers but they do get respectable damage and enough to be useful. In fact the engineer can buff them by reducing weapon drain with nadeon inversion so everyone gets a decent buff for that.
Notice I say useful and that is really what the thread is about, "Thus the tipping point: At what point does a damage-dealing power (any kind of power, not just sci BOFF skills) go from being just simply useful for it's damage, to suddenly overpowered due to tac buffs?"
We've seen this with damage from:
Eject Warp Plasma
Feedback Pulse
Gravity Well
Photonic Shockwave
Tricobalt mines + Dispersal patterns
Tractor Beam repulsors
Those are just off the top of my head, I am sure there are more.
Why do so many people still complain about the damage dealt by Tactical buffs? Legacy of Romulus literally killed the "Tactical officers are better in science vessels than Science officers" argument. Go down fighting is now only usable below 50% hull and it has a 4 minute cooldown, making it sitiational at best. Tactical Fleet is a team buff with a 5 minute cooldown, as such tactical officers really don't get much damage out of that ability. Attack Pattern Alpha provides a +49.5% damage boost for 30 second with a 2 minute 30 second cooldown. Prior to Legacy of Romulus this was the big one, the buff many claimed made Tactical officers better at science.
With the launch of Legacy of Romulus, Cryptic revamped the trait system and gave Science officers the science only trait called Conservation of Energy. The ability has no cooldown and activates when dealt any damage. It stacks up to 3 times and provides a +10% all exotic damage (particle generator abilities) for 15 seconds. While Tactical officers can deal 19.5% more damage than Science officers, they lack subnuke beam. The tactical damage resistance debuff "Fire on my Mark" is also cleared by the most widely used ability in the game, while the science damage resistance debuff "Sensor Scan" is larger and it is cleared by the less commonly used Science Team.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the ability gets balanced so it's not OP at +170% damage and -41 DR, which only 1 captain type can achieve, then the other two captain types will end up with an ability that is a lot less damaging than is useful.
The ability will get balanced to be in line with the top damage that can ever be achieved with it.
If you remove the possibility that tactical captains can buff it in the ways you said they don't tend to, then the abilities can be balanced for a much tighter spectrum of damage which does not make it useless to those classes who are not capable of such buffing.
I do agree though, a tactical captain is not very likely to repeatedly stack those buffs and really GDF would at most give between 50-75% damage boost and cannot be activated at will anymore.
However the ability will get balanced under the maximum buffs available and that is by popping all the long CD buffs, the shorter ones and the debuffs on a decloaking ship with full romulan crew at 130 aux with 4 embassy consoles and full particle gens on a tactical captain and firing...with APO1 or APB2 in use too (did I miss anything?).
Remove the tactical captains buffs from the table (or at least all but APA maybe) then you tighten the spectrum significantly between max damage and average/min damage. It will also mean all classes can get close to the max damage from it if they spec for it.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the ability gets balanced so it's not OP at +170% damage and -41 DR, which only 1 captain type can achieve, then the other two captain types will end up with an ability that is a lot less damaging than is useful.
No you're missing the point.
Tactical captains are designed to deal damage.
Sci captains are force multipliers, they bring control and teamwide mitigation.
I know Tac's deal more damage with some sci skills, thats the entire point of Tactical captains - to deal damage.
Unfortunately a lot of players, such as yourself, really have no idea what Sci captains were actually designed to do and want Sci powers to do enough damage to be a threat but only in the hands of a Sci captain.
Sci captains already do more than any other career. They stack the best, bring the best team buffs & that's why good premade teams bring 3 of them.
Think APA should no longer work for Sci skills? Great.
Let's have Sensor Scan only debuff resistance to Sci skills.
That's not what's being asked for though right? No we want our cake and eat it too. We want all Sci captain abilities to work with everything, energy weapons, torpedos, Warp plasma, you name it.
I've mentioned this last part at least 3 or 4 times now. Notice how no one is able to touch it?
Most likely because while they are busy lobbying for a Tac nerf, they kind of forgot that some Sci captain abilities should be on the same chopping block if that's the direction the game should go.
And you also don't see the point I am making, that is that abilities are balanced for IF a tactical captain buffs it as much as they can which IS more than a science AND an engineer captain can. I'm not asking for science to be the best at doing damage with them.
I'm asking for a tightening of the extremely high damage that is capable by only one class so that it does not completely and utterly eclipse that of the other two and make the damage component of it irrelevant.
I mean how many abilities have to be nerfed into obscurity before we have a reigning in of tactical buffs?
As for your APA vs Sensor scan, I answered that. It's the same reason I don't call for FOMM to be excluded from affecting science abilities. This is about reigning in the extremes of the damage spectrum not nerfing tacticals so they don't do more damage but I guess you didn't touch that.
A problem with this discussion, is PvE vs. PvP...imho. The value of what the Sci can do to "boost" the damage in PvE is going to be far less than what they can do in PvP. Mobs don't use various abilities that come into the equation when comparing Sci and Tac.
The NPC's not going to pop APO, AtS, HE, PH, BFI...the NPC's not going to pop TT to clear the FoMM....etc, etc, etc.
There's no doubt that the Tac can do more "bursty" Sci damage than a Sci in PvE.
In PvP though...outside of SNB DOFFs, the Tac is not going to clear those +Damage Resistance abilities - is not going to clear any escape abilities - is not going to clear any heals over time...and the Tac is going to see the FoMM gone. It gives the edge to the Sci for Exotic damage over the Tac.
It seems like more of a PvE discussion than a PvP discussion...
After messing around for a little bit w/a Rommy Sci ship build there's basically a choice of either using the decloak for the boost or the Sci Trait, can't really pull them both off.
Personally, I prefer the decloak debuff option and "hit and run" the debuffs. It allows for more debuff options in boff ability selection.
One thing I noticed is there's a huge difference between the damage someone takes from TB3&GW3 if they have any kind of Kinetic resist from those that don't. I'm still not sure if that's a good or bad thing in terms of the max kinetic resists, but just a quick scrolling of the logs showed some players took 10-20x less than another. That just feels like too much of a variance in the extremes, but not unexpected.
Also, as others have mentioned Sci abilities most certainly crit. What I don't know is what if any difference defense plays in that. Anecdotally, it seemed like my PSW would crit more vs a target who was TB'd 1st, but it's been awhile since I've run that combo.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
One thing I noticed is there's a huge difference between the damage someone takes from TB3&GW3 if they have any kind of Kinetic resist from those that don't. I'm still not sure if that's a good or bad thing in terms of the max kinetic resists, but just a quick scrolling of the logs showed some players took 10-20x less than another. That just feels like too much of a variance in the extremes, but not unexpected.
That's along the lines of the point I was trying to make.
Exotic Damage is Kinetic Damage. It is "Exotic" damage because it doesn't come from a weapon, but it is still Kinetic damage.
The Tac boosting Exotic damage...well, my guys tend to run more "defensive" than "offensive" - so I'm going to be popping those buffs. Heck, even against a Sci using FBP while on a Tac, I'm going to pop those buffs and "teehee" the damage unless they SNB the buffs off...at which point I take a moment while waiting on the respawn to consider my future actions. The Tac can't strip those buffs like that.
That has to be a consideration for the amount of damage that can be done when comparing the Tac and Sci in PvP. In PvE, it's not part of the consideration because mobs don't have that "teehee factor" going for them.
Sci captains are force multipliers, they bring control and teamwide mitigation.
I know Tac's deal more damage with some sci skills, thats the entire point of Tactical captains - to deal damage.
Unfortunately a lot of players, such as yourself, really have no idea what Sci captains were actually designed to do and want Sci powers to do enough damage to be a threat but only in the hands of a Sci captain.
Sci captains already do more than any other career. They stack the best, bring the best team buffs & that's why good premade teams bring 3 of them.
Think APA should no longer work for Sci skills? Great.
Let's have Sensor Scan only debuff resistance to Sci skills.
That's not what's being asked for though right? No we want our cake and eat it too. We want all Sci captain abilities to work with everything, energy weapons, torpedos, Warp plasma, you name it.
I've mentioned this last part at least 3 or 4 times now. Notice how no one is able to touch it?
Most likely because while they are busy lobbying for a Tac nerf, they kind of forgot that some Sci captain abilities should be on the same chopping block if that's the direction the game should go.
and in a game where dps is king, this creates all kinds of issues... because the control in this game all comes from consoles.
there are no good high level science control powers as it stands now.
id be more then happy to have my sensor scan only increase sci damage if tac captain abillites only increase weapon damage.
Tac in a sci ship isn't overpowered, I do it sometimes in a Vesta for lulz mostly, but against any organized team once they catch on to your tricks it won't work so good anymore.
The most common method tacs in sci ships are getting kills with right now is the 2x FBP build, the infamous Kax being the main user of this. He will do a lot of damage at the begining, and will cause people to 1 shot themselves with BO, but once people catch on and watch for his fbp when shooting him his damage in the later part of the match goes down a lot.
The other methods of tac damage in sci ships don't work as good anymore since they have all been nerfed like TBR and PSW. GW is ok but not enough on its own. For TBR to work ok you need to use a2b to drain your aux so you won't push them faster then you can keep u, but drained aux reduces gw damage unfortunatley. Isometric charge is also great with these builds but long cd.
Overall its not very overpowered, tac in sci ship is pretty gimicky and can lead to amazing damage at times like with bo critting on fbp or Iso criiting the whole other team, but very useless even more times then that.
i ran into a premade months ago with all 5 ships using GW on 1 target at the same time. it was breathtakingly effective. i would not worry that the updates dont go far enough, you will be seeing a lot of GWs soon, and you will come to be warry of them, i predict.
i ran into a premade months ago with all 5 ships using GW on 1 target at the same time. it was breathtakingly effective. i would not worry that the updates dont go far enough, you will be seeing a lot of GWs soon, and you will come to be warry of them, i predict.
Don't forget the Romulan DOFF...Deflector Officer for +5% Exotic Damage after activating a Singularity Ability.
i ran into a premade months ago with all 5 ships using GW on 1 target at the same time. it was breathtakingly effective. i would not worry that the updates dont go far enough, you will be seeing a lot of GWs soon, and you will come to be warry of them, i predict.
This is ok by me. They just did the same thing as five tacs alpha striking the same target, but hat will never come up for a nerf. If they have a problem with five gw on one target the. I should only be able to take damage from on Alpha at a time. Make it level is all I am asking.
Which is worth something in PvP where you can do 30% damage to 5 ships at a time or more and maybe pop some pets too. That's great. I'm all for that being balanced so that 5 tacs cannot faceroll another team with high spec gravity wells that no one can escape, which brutalize the enemy causing it to be one sided.
What I am not OK with is if it gets balanced so that scenario of 5 tacs can't happen, which then leaves the engineer/science captain, Bob Johnson, with a GW3 which might as well not do any damage in PvE because he just can't buff it to the silly levels, doesn't have another 4 players stacking it and the enemies have 2-3 times more health than players.
Bob Johnson would use tricobalt mines but he just can't get the spike needed for them to be effective. He would use CSV but he's in a science ship. Maybe FAW will save him, doing 800-1000 damage per hit, when he finally gets through shields. Ah wait he has CPB2 that might just remove half the shields. Oh an escort captain showed up and used CSV3 and destroyed them in seconds. Nevermind, all is well.
I'll put you an example of a way to have science abilities so tacs still get the most from them but the disparity is not stupid.
GW3 base damage at 50 aux: 1000 per tick
GW3 with 100 aux: 2000 per tick
GW3 with 100 PrtG, 50 aux: 1500 per tick (so +500 damage per 100 points in PrtG)
GW3 with 100 aux and 200 PrtG: 3000 per tick
Tacticals currently have their buffs applied ontop, so APA will buff 3000 and make it 4500 and could buff it a lot more with GDF, tactical fleet and against 1 target FOMM. A conservative estimate could hit +120% whhich gives the tactica captain a total of 6600 damage per tick, more when you factor negative resists.
If you changed it to buff base instead you would get 3500 from APA with the other buffs able to push it perhaps more to the 4200 end of the spectrum. This would mean that Tactical Captains STILL get the most bang from it, the damage can be tweaked to a decent amount by slowly increasing the amount from PrtG and Aux at a ratio to base and we don't end up with the damage component only relevant to tactical captains.
Because GW is an AoE power, it affects multiple targets.
Because GW is both control and damage.
GW is an AoE Control & Damage Force Multiplier.
The difference is there, not everyone understands it.
Tacs have AoEs. And with more weapons at bear it is fair for five tacs to gang up on one target than five people using gravity well. Sorry but there is a counter for the gravity well. There is not one for being alpha'd by five tacs. Yes you can sub nuc one, but that is only one. Five gravity wells to one target displays good team work not OP, five alpha strike to one target is good team work, might be over kill but good team work.
The problem is most tacs don't want to run counter like sience team, they would rather run TSS. I understand why, TSS is a bigger heal. But because a Pearson does not want to be able to counter what is being done to them does not mean something is OP. Thismind set is why science has be nerfed to nothing, yes there are still good builds for science, but there is a lot broke too.
No one is asking for a science charter or ship be better than any other class, What people want is for the classes and ships to be balanced.
Tacticals currently have their buffs applied ontop, so APA will buff 3000 and make it 4500 and could buff it a lot more with GDF, tactical fleet and against 1 target FOMM. A conservative estimate could hit +120% whhich gives the tactica captain a total of 6600 damage per tick, more when you factor negative resists.
If you changed it to buff base instead you would get 3500 from APA with the other buffs able to push it perhaps more to the 4200 end of the spectrum. This would mean that Tactical Captains STILL get the most bang from it, the damage can be tweaked to a decent amount by slowly increasing the amount from PrtG and Aux at a ratio to base and we don't end up with the damage component only relevant to tactical captains.
I do not agree with this at all. Tacs should not be dealing more damage with science bridge officer skills than anyone else. They should be on the same playing field. This makes balance. They would still be doing more damage because the buffs to weapons damage is still there.
Here is the reasons why I say this.
1. A tac should not do more damage with science BOFFs skills than anybody one else. If they did Cryptic has to adjust the skill so max output is within game balance requirements. This in effect would nerf the ability for the other to classes. The buff from science skills should be from specing into science skills, aux, consoles, and devices.
2. Tacs are supposed to do more damage. Everyone complains about have class specific rolls but they are supposed to be the damage dealers. On that note you are only supposed to do more damage with weapons. (You never saw Worf go to gravemetricts to produce a GW because he could make it do more damage. That is a gravimetrics officers job.).( this has nothing to do with game balance)
3. Game balance. All three classes in there respected ships should not be able to kill each other in a true balanced PvP. This creates balance. Yes there are timing, crits, and luck involved to get a kill. Balance PvP then balance the rest of the game to abide by the balance in PvP.
Comments
APO
APB
Decloak
Crit%
These are all captain type agnostic.
Should these no longer work for Sci captains either?
I mean, why should APO 3 work as well for a Sci captain or Eng captain with 9 ranks in Starship Attack patterns?
Why should AMBUSH be +25% damage for any captain type?
Why should 9 Ranks in Projectiles & 9 Ranks in Projectile Spec +20% crit builds be an option for a Sci/Tvaro running a brutal Transphasic build? (Hi f00k!)
Maybe we should just shut off Critical %, APO/B/D (after-all, anyone can take ranks in Startship Attack Patterns), Ambush Decloaking - and remove all these options that Science captains can also use to power their Sci abilities.
Why should Sci captains be able to get 20% crit that is career type agnostic? :rolleyes:
Or maybe Sensor Scan should only debuff vs. damaging Sci powers and not work for Cannons, Beams, Torpedoes, Mines, Pets, etc.
I don't believe in any of the above, this post is simply to embody the sillyness of the idea that Tacs doing damage with sci powers is inherently "bad", or that +damage/-res powers should not be usable with Sci powers.
However I wouldn't want any captain using Gravity Well 3 to be outdone by a Tac captain using Gravity Well 1, comparing just those boff powers. The Tac also gets more weapon slots in his Tac ship so he likely still does more damage overall. But at least the GW3 part of the Sci ship should have an edge over GW1 for any captain willing to try a Science ship.
For the same reason sci powers cannot crit. Look sci boff ability damage has always been either pathetic or OP after years of tweaks to the basic numbers. And they will always be thatt way until they change the number of things effecting them.
This is what the damage of GW is balanced on. If it wasn't able to be buffed with crazy high numbers, they would allow it to be buffed with high aux and particle generators, but its not now, which gives the other two careers a disadvantage. This game in pve, mostly comes down to dealing lots of damage, a little CC (sometimes), and APB. A tac captain can do all that and better.
What's wrong with not letting APA and other damage buffs not buff exotic damage, then buff exotic damage to do more damage? Everyone (very few don"t) says science powers are under powered, but when someone points out why, you get " No No No, don't change the game."
I'm not angry or anything. Everyone in this thread has well thought out arguments. I also know this is an old argument. I use to love the idea of APA and other tac buffs buffing science powers, but the game has changed. All of the power creep has been to energy weapons, making everything else not so desirable.
I don't remember if that's actually correct (TBR I believe can crit, or at least it did) - I will take your word for it and let's say that they don't.
I'll say your statement is still irrelevant.
A Sci captain can still hop into a warbird, can still get APO 3 + Ambush + 15 to 20% crit chance to all of their DHCs or Beams, or Torpedoes.
A good Sci/Escort can solo an entire flank of NWS or be the floater, they can solo an entire section of an Elite STF and they can duel the hell out of a Tac/Escort of equal skill as the Sci holds all of the trump cards.
You'll notice all of the Tac boff powers are basically some way to power up a weapon or damage in general.
So should all +damage & weapon buffing, +crit bonuses only work for Tacs?
Should Sensor Scan debuff not count towards Energy/Kinetic weapon damage? After all, its a Sci power, maybe it should only debuff for Sci powers damage.
In order for a tactical captain to be effective with Sci powers they need to spec into Sci skills.
You know like graviton gens and particle gens.
So what's the difference?
Nothing, it's just more anti-tac rhetoric.
For the record, there are enough points to go around to spec into a wide variety of things for every captain, you should be doing this anyway. With heavy specialization of skills depending on the ship you intend to fly.
Let's try harder guys, why should Sensor Scan be allowed to debuff targets in an AoE for Energy & Projectile Weapons to do more damage?
(It's a trick question)
Let's look at the Damage dealing Power List (Leaving consoles out), in no particular Order (These would be classified as Exotic Damage)
Eject Warp Plasma (Plasma Damage)
Aceton Beam (Plasma Damage)
Photonic Shockwave (Kinetic Damage)
Tractor Beam (Kinetic Damage)
Tractor Beam Repulsors (Kinetic Damage)
Aux Based, Feedback Pulse (Untyped I think?)
Aux Based, Gravity Well (Kinetic Damage)
Aux Based, Tyken's Rift (Yes it does Exotic damage) (Kinetic Damage)
Tactical powers that effect these:
Attack Pattern Alpha
Go down Fighting
Tactical Team
Fire on my mark (Debuffs increase damage, so counts)
Science Powers That Effect these:
Sensor Scan
(In a way Subnucleonic Beam because its a Debuff)
Traits that can effect these:
Astrophysicist (+10 Particle Gen boost)
Science Officer Exclusive: Conservation of Energy (Boosts Exotic Damage)
Inspirational Leader
Doffs:
Romulan only: After a Singularity power usage, gain a buff that increases Exotic damage for x seconds. (Don't recall the name or how long)
And then we have Cloak, and Ambush Boffs/Romulan Traits that can further increase the damage.
So, if you were to build a Tactical to fly a Fleet Ha'nom (Romulan science ship with a Battle Cloak) vs a Science Officer flying a Fleet Ha'nom, And both players had Astrophyscist, and Inspirational Leader, the Science officer having Conservation of Energy, and all gear was equal (same Deflector/Consoles/Set Bonuses (if any), and other non mentioned variables)) which would come out on top in the damage? Currently Tactical Officer in terms of Damage. Because yes, they can increase the damage effects to some times Extreme Values (FBP 3 Being the BEST example)
Now if they were to change so that the Tactical Captian Abilities no longer could effect Exotic Damage, it would then be the Sci who could produce the best Exotic Damage, because they get the Conservation of Energy Trait, and as stated a high powered Aux science user could debuff a target better then a Tac can.
How ever it then comes into question what is Cryptic's desire for powers like the above listed? Do they want a Tac to get that greater feeling of oomph when using Exotic Damage powers, or do they want Exotic Damage based powers to be in the best hands when used by a Science officer?
So far it seems like they want to give Tactical officers that oomph feeling when in a Science heavy based ship.
I mean lets face it, If you were to take that Ha'nom, make it into a Transphasic Bomber, using a Tac with 125 Aux, whos to say you couldn't produce some kills that a Sci can't do since not only are you boosting the damage your weapons are dealing, you also can take advantage of not needing weapon power, and further boost Exotic Damage dealing skills better then a Sci can because of your damage boosting skills. Decloak bonus then just becomes gravy.. And because of a Tactical's ability to improve Crit, you give those Exotic Damage effects even greater damage. Because yes, those powers can and do Crit. But it becomes more noticable in the hands of a tac.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Hey no fair, EWP and Aceton belong to Engi.
Do Sci's want to steal that from them too? :P
Well, at the same time even a Fed Sci can run...
+3% Crit Rom Passive
+1.8% Zero Point
+0.92% Borg
+0.76% Tachyokinetic
+2% 9 Ranks in Weapon Specialization
8.48% chance to crit
Add 2 Embassy boffs?
12.48%
vs. Tac 17.48% with APA up.
A Rom Sci?
Add 11.5% to 8.48
Sitting 19.98 or nearly 20% critical chance for a Sci captain.
Where once Tac had the market on Crits cornered, this is no longer the case.
Sure, the Tac can get more. 5% more.
But 25% vs. 20% is not as big as before when all we had was the Weapon Specialization and Borg console.
2.92% vs. 7.92%
Right now any career can come packing at least 10% crit, with Romulans cornering the market at a whopping 20% crit.
So in fact you can actually build a Rom Sci or Rom Eng with more Crit than even a Fed Tac with APA is capable of.
I've had my tractor beam, photonic shockwave, and gravity well Critically hit before. It's not frequent, but they do Critically hit.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
I don't care about careers, I have a ton of toons. This has nothing to do with tacs, scis, etc etc. The only thing I want are exotic boff abilities that deal respectable damage.
The only way that can happen is if they remove some of the things that are effecting the damage potential. They are terrified that a GW3 with a .25 skill mod and 1% aux mod would be able to kill NPC destroyers. They aren't even considering (AFAIK) the fact I can then nearly double that number with decloak and other universal +Damage abilities followed up with a full AUX sensor scan(or FOMM) +APB possibly to double that number again.
They have tweaked the numbers how many times and yet have always failed to make exotic boff ability damage both viable and not OP. Expecting them to repeat the same activity and it having a different result is insanity. Kinda like me bothering to participate in this debate I guess....
All things being equal, same ship, same stupidly powerful romulan boffs, same doffs, same crit and damage boosting consoles (particle gens, ZP console, assimilated console etc) and everything else including skill points (though a tactical captain would have to max attack patterns but 6 points is advisable to most classes) bar the captain this is how it is stacked for boosting damage.
Tactical captain:
Attack Pattern Alpha: +50% dmg, +5% CrtH, +20% CrtD
Fire On My Mark: -41 damage resistance
Tactical Fleet: +20% dmg
Go Down Fighting: +25-100% damage with +0-30 Damage resistance.
Total: +70-170% damage and -41 damage resistance.
Science Captain:
Sensor Scan: -20-70 damage resistance highly dependant on aux.
Subnucleonic Beam: Removes currently applied buffs and increases recharge times.
Total: -70 damage resistance
Engineering Captain:
-
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that when the ability gets balanced so it's not OP at +170% damage and -41 DR, which only 1 captain type can achieve, then the other two captain types will end up with an ability that is a lot less damaging than is useful.
If you remove the tactical captains buffs from buffing science abilities then what do you end up with?
Tactical Captain:
FOMM: -41 Damage resistance
+ 70-170% more damage from weapon
Science Captain:
Sensor Scan: -20-70 Damage resistance, highly dependant on aux
Engineering Captain:
-
Engineering captains still lose out but it's not by such a wide margin and we don't have to have abilities that are p*** poor for all but a stupidly high buff stacking tactical captain. We can have abilities that perform well for those that invest in them regardless of career but tactical captains will still get a lot more out of it as they have the ridiculously high weapon damage the other two captains are not capable of.
The arguments are not there to single out tactical captains because we have beef with them. It's there because only they can reach the extreme levels of buffs needed to get good (note good, not OP or even great) damage out of these abilities which have a damage component for a reason.
If you want to start on this childish "Should Sensor Scan debuff not count towards Energy/Kinetic weapon damage? After all, its a Sci power, maybe it should only debuff for Sci powers damage." thing then you really are plucking at straws. As said it's not about picking on the tacticals for doing what they can do, it's about the huge disparity between usefulness of these abilities between tactical captains and the other two classes.
Note: Yes I am aware tactical fleet affects the whole team, in a co-ordinated effort a science captain could benefit from that but only if a tactical captain was present and it would be at that captains discretion and timing therefore cannot really be counted upon all the time.
I would complain about the ludicrous damage tactical captains can buff weapon damage to but weapons for all classes are competitive. A science and engineering captain may not get as large numbers but they do get respectable damage and enough to be useful. In fact the engineer can buff them by reducing weapon drain with nadeon inversion so everyone gets a decent buff for that.
Notice I say useful and that is really what the thread is about, "Thus the tipping point: At what point does a damage-dealing power (any kind of power, not just sci BOFF skills) go from being just simply useful for it's damage, to suddenly overpowered due to tac buffs?"
We've seen this with damage from:
Eject Warp Plasma
Feedback Pulse
Gravity Well
Photonic Shockwave
Tricobalt mines + Dispersal patterns
Tractor Beam repulsors
Those are just off the top of my head, I am sure there are more.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Why do so many people still complain about the damage dealt by Tactical buffs? Legacy of Romulus literally killed the "Tactical officers are better in science vessels than Science officers" argument. Go down fighting is now only usable below 50% hull and it has a 4 minute cooldown, making it sitiational at best. Tactical Fleet is a team buff with a 5 minute cooldown, as such tactical officers really don't get much damage out of that ability. Attack Pattern Alpha provides a +49.5% damage boost for 30 second with a 2 minute 30 second cooldown. Prior to Legacy of Romulus this was the big one, the buff many claimed made Tactical officers better at science.
With the launch of Legacy of Romulus, Cryptic revamped the trait system and gave Science officers the science only trait called Conservation of Energy. The ability has no cooldown and activates when dealt any damage. It stacks up to 3 times and provides a +10% all exotic damage (particle generator abilities) for 15 seconds. While Tactical officers can deal 19.5% more damage than Science officers, they lack subnuke beam. The tactical damage resistance debuff "Fire on my Mark" is also cleared by the most widely used ability in the game, while the science damage resistance debuff "Sensor Scan" is larger and it is cleared by the less commonly used Science Team.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
The ability will get balanced to be in line with the top damage that can ever be achieved with it.
If you remove the possibility that tactical captains can buff it in the ways you said they don't tend to, then the abilities can be balanced for a much tighter spectrum of damage which does not make it useless to those classes who are not capable of such buffing.
I do agree though, a tactical captain is not very likely to repeatedly stack those buffs and really GDF would at most give between 50-75% damage boost and cannot be activated at will anymore.
However the ability will get balanced under the maximum buffs available and that is by popping all the long CD buffs, the shorter ones and the debuffs on a decloaking ship with full romulan crew at 130 aux with 4 embassy consoles and full particle gens on a tactical captain and firing...with APO1 or APB2 in use too (did I miss anything?).
Remove the tactical captains buffs from the table (or at least all but APA maybe) then you tighten the spectrum significantly between max damage and average/min damage. It will also mean all classes can get close to the max damage from it if they spec for it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
No you're missing the point.
Tactical captains are designed to deal damage.
Sci captains are force multipliers, they bring control and teamwide mitigation.
I know Tac's deal more damage with some sci skills, thats the entire point of Tactical captains - to deal damage.
Unfortunately a lot of players, such as yourself, really have no idea what Sci captains were actually designed to do and want Sci powers to do enough damage to be a threat but only in the hands of a Sci captain.
Sci captains already do more than any other career. They stack the best, bring the best team buffs & that's why good premade teams bring 3 of them.
Think APA should no longer work for Sci skills? Great.
Let's have Sensor Scan only debuff resistance to Sci skills.
That's not what's being asked for though right? No we want our cake and eat it too. We want all Sci captain abilities to work with everything, energy weapons, torpedos, Warp plasma, you name it.
I've mentioned this last part at least 3 or 4 times now. Notice how no one is able to touch it?
Most likely because while they are busy lobbying for a Tac nerf, they kind of forgot that some Sci captain abilities should be on the same chopping block if that's the direction the game should go.
I'm asking for a tightening of the extremely high damage that is capable by only one class so that it does not completely and utterly eclipse that of the other two and make the damage component of it irrelevant.
I mean how many abilities have to be nerfed into obscurity before we have a reigning in of tactical buffs?
As for your APA vs Sensor scan, I answered that. It's the same reason I don't call for FOMM to be excluded from affecting science abilities. This is about reigning in the extremes of the damage spectrum not nerfing tacticals so they don't do more damage but I guess you didn't touch that.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
The NPC's not going to pop APO, AtS, HE, PH, BFI...the NPC's not going to pop TT to clear the FoMM....etc, etc, etc.
There's no doubt that the Tac can do more "bursty" Sci damage than a Sci in PvE.
In PvP though...outside of SNB DOFFs, the Tac is not going to clear those +Damage Resistance abilities - is not going to clear any escape abilities - is not going to clear any heals over time...and the Tac is going to see the FoMM gone. It gives the edge to the Sci for Exotic damage over the Tac.
It seems like more of a PvE discussion than a PvP discussion...
Personally, I prefer the decloak debuff option and "hit and run" the debuffs. It allows for more debuff options in boff ability selection.
One thing I noticed is there's a huge difference between the damage someone takes from TB3&GW3 if they have any kind of Kinetic resist from those that don't. I'm still not sure if that's a good or bad thing in terms of the max kinetic resists, but just a quick scrolling of the logs showed some players took 10-20x less than another. That just feels like too much of a variance in the extremes, but not unexpected.
Also, as others have mentioned Sci abilities most certainly crit. What I don't know is what if any difference defense plays in that. Anecdotally, it seemed like my PSW would crit more vs a target who was TB'd 1st, but it's been awhile since I've run that combo.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
That's along the lines of the point I was trying to make.
Exotic Damage is Kinetic Damage. It is "Exotic" damage because it doesn't come from a weapon, but it is still Kinetic damage.
The Tac boosting Exotic damage...well, my guys tend to run more "defensive" than "offensive" - so I'm going to be popping those buffs. Heck, even against a Sci using FBP while on a Tac, I'm going to pop those buffs and "teehee" the damage unless they SNB the buffs off...at which point I take a moment while waiting on the respawn to consider my future actions. The Tac can't strip those buffs like that.
That has to be a consideration for the amount of damage that can be done when comparing the Tac and Sci in PvP. In PvE, it's not part of the consideration because mobs don't have that "teehee factor" going for them.
and in a game where dps is king, this creates all kinds of issues... because the control in this game all comes from consoles.
there are no good high level science control powers as it stands now.
id be more then happy to have my sensor scan only increase sci damage if tac captain abillites only increase weapon damage.
Do you even Science Bro?
The most common method tacs in sci ships are getting kills with right now is the 2x FBP build, the infamous Kax being the main user of this. He will do a lot of damage at the begining, and will cause people to 1 shot themselves with BO, but once people catch on and watch for his fbp when shooting him his damage in the later part of the match goes down a lot.
The other methods of tac damage in sci ships don't work as good anymore since they have all been nerfed like TBR and PSW. GW is ok but not enough on its own. For TBR to work ok you need to use a2b to drain your aux so you won't push them faster then you can keep u, but drained aux reduces gw damage unfortunatley. Isometric charge is also great with these builds but long cd.
Overall its not very overpowered, tac in sci ship is pretty gimicky and can lead to amazing damage at times like with bo critting on fbp or Iso criiting the whole other team, but very useless even more times then that.
I think, sadly, healing is king bud.
VM 3, SS 3 & PSW 3 are all still very solid.
VM 3 especially causes issues for cloakers, hard spec PSW is good for assisting on kills (the stun portion), SS 3 can be pushed to 30s.
The best control power in the entire game is still the best anyway, SNB.
Don't forget the Romulan DOFF...Deflector Officer for +5% Exotic Damage after activating a Singularity Ability.
Singularity Jump, turn, Grav Well...
...cause Romulans do everything better.
^sto's new motto
This is ok by me. They just did the same thing as five tacs alpha striking the same target, but hat will never come up for a nerf. If they have a problem with five gw on one target the. I should only be able to take damage from on Alpha at a time. Make it level is all I am asking.
No, they didn't.
Because GW is an AoE power, it affects multiple targets.
Because GW is both control and damage.
GW is an AoE Control & Damage Force Multiplier.
The difference is there, not everyone understands it.
What I am not OK with is if it gets balanced so that scenario of 5 tacs can't happen, which then leaves the engineer/science captain, Bob Johnson, with a GW3 which might as well not do any damage in PvE because he just can't buff it to the silly levels, doesn't have another 4 players stacking it and the enemies have 2-3 times more health than players.
Bob Johnson would use tricobalt mines but he just can't get the spike needed for them to be effective. He would use CSV but he's in a science ship. Maybe FAW will save him, doing 800-1000 damage per hit, when he finally gets through shields. Ah wait he has CPB2 that might just remove half the shields. Oh an escort captain showed up and used CSV3 and destroyed them in seconds. Nevermind, all is well.
I'll put you an example of a way to have science abilities so tacs still get the most from them but the disparity is not stupid.
GW3 base damage at 50 aux: 1000 per tick
GW3 with 100 aux: 2000 per tick
GW3 with 100 PrtG, 50 aux: 1500 per tick (so +500 damage per 100 points in PrtG)
GW3 with 100 aux and 200 PrtG: 3000 per tick
Tacticals currently have their buffs applied ontop, so APA will buff 3000 and make it 4500 and could buff it a lot more with GDF, tactical fleet and against 1 target FOMM. A conservative estimate could hit +120% whhich gives the tactica captain a total of 6600 damage per tick, more when you factor negative resists.
If you changed it to buff base instead you would get 3500 from APA with the other buffs able to push it perhaps more to the 4200 end of the spectrum. This would mean that Tactical Captains STILL get the most bang from it, the damage can be tweaked to a decent amount by slowly increasing the amount from PrtG and Aux at a ratio to base and we don't end up with the damage component only relevant to tactical captains.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Tacs have AoEs. And with more weapons at bear it is fair for five tacs to gang up on one target than five people using gravity well. Sorry but there is a counter for the gravity well. There is not one for being alpha'd by five tacs. Yes you can sub nuc one, but that is only one. Five gravity wells to one target displays good team work not OP, five alpha strike to one target is good team work, might be over kill but good team work.
The problem is most tacs don't want to run counter like sience team, they would rather run TSS. I understand why, TSS is a bigger heal. But because a Pearson does not want to be able to counter what is being done to them does not mean something is OP. Thismind set is why science has be nerfed to nothing, yes there are still good builds for science, but there is a lot broke too.
No one is asking for a science charter or ship be better than any other class, What people want is for the classes and ships to be balanced.
I do not agree with this at all. Tacs should not be dealing more damage with science bridge officer skills than anyone else. They should be on the same playing field. This makes balance. They would still be doing more damage because the buffs to weapons damage is still there.
Here is the reasons why I say this.
1. A tac should not do more damage with science BOFFs skills than anybody one else. If they did Cryptic has to adjust the skill so max output is within game balance requirements. This in effect would nerf the ability for the other to classes. The buff from science skills should be from specing into science skills, aux, consoles, and devices.
2. Tacs are supposed to do more damage. Everyone complains about have class specific rolls but they are supposed to be the damage dealers. On that note you are only supposed to do more damage with weapons. (You never saw Worf go to gravemetricts to produce a GW because he could make it do more damage. That is a gravimetrics officers job.).( this has nothing to do with game balance)
3. Game balance. All three classes in there respected ships should not be able to kill each other in a true balanced PvP. This creates balance. Yes there are timing, crits, and luck involved to get a kill. Balance PvP then balance the rest of the game to abide by the balance in PvP.