I'm not sure how related this is, but i'm genuinely unsure which consoles i should be flying with these days. I find myself and everyone i associste with who do the same escort job as me to have way too many choices!
The Borg console, the Tachyo console, the Zero Point Module, the Leech console, the new armor consoles, the new RCS consoles and everything else that the decerning Pewer uses.
I'd rather have more choice then more limitations, but am i the only one where who struggles to decide?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I'm not sure how related this is, but i'm genuinely unsure which consoles i should be flying with these days. I find myself and everyone i associste with who do the same escort job as me to have way too many choices!
The Borg console, the Tachyo console, the Zero Point Module, the Leech console, the new armor consoles, the new RCS consoles and everything else that the decerning Pewer uses.
I'd rather have more choice then more limitations, but am i the only one where who struggles to decide?
You aren't alone there, with all of the very nice universal consoles ingame, it's difficult to decide what will fit best on a space PvP build.
I'm not sure how related this is, but i'm genuinely unsure which consoles i should be flying with these days. I find myself and everyone i associste with who do the same escort job as me to have way too many choices!
The Borg console, the Tachyo console, the Zero Point Module, the Leech console, the new armor consoles, the new RCS consoles and everything else that the decerning Pewer uses.
I'd rather have more choice then more limitations, but am i the only one where who struggles to decide?
Absolutely, and I think this is actually a good direction with less "must haves" and a lot of interesting choices.
I love choice, and I love interesting effects and powers - I just have concerns that are generally related to when those powers are force multipliers, as they tend to be the hardest to make both balanced and usable.
I'm not sure how related this is, but i'm genuinely unsure which consoles i should be flying with these days. I find myself and everyone i associste with who do the same escort job as me to have way too many choices!
The Borg console, the Tachyo console, the Zero Point Module, the Leech console, the new armor consoles, the new RCS consoles and everything else that the decerning Pewer uses.
I'd rather have more choice then more limitations, but am i the only one where who struggles to decide?
It's how things should be, but it tends not to work that way. Every choice we make should be a hard choice - do we want X or do we want Y? IMHO, we don't have enough of those choices - there are things that are good, things that outright suck, and things folks complain are OP. It generally makes most decisions easier...what Cryptic appears to be getting around to is offering more choices that don't suck, and thus introducing those choices that should have been there from the start.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Don't also forget that much of that same stuff that people considered to be 'Klingon cheese' was why they didn't want to play against Klingons in PvP.
It's not really the fault of Klingons, but when I get around to it I'm going to create a list that breaks the consoles down into lists such as the Pets one.
I hope noone is surprised, that the vast majority of "good" or "OP" consoles are primarily force multipliers, and primarily found on KDF side, while the "weak" and "useless" (standard, usually self only 1 shot stuff) is found Fed side.
Elite Fleet Weapons?
KDF = Force Multiplier
Fed = Self only heal
Which ones did people flock to or complain about?
Which ones (outside of people who play uber-tank healers) do people avoid?
I'd say that x years of Force Mutliplier Consoles, Force Multiplier Pets and the only available functional cloaking & carriers for such an extended period unfortunately did severe and lasting damage to KDF side's general health with regards to faction image, powers balance and playability. It's unfortunate that KDF is still avoided by many, even though most things have been proliferated.
My thread exists specifically to highlight the problem of Force Multipliers, what they are, and what balance issues they present so that the mistakes of the past are hopefully at the least avoided, if not hopefully fixed *one day*.
It's not really the fault of Klingons, but when I get around to it I'm going to create a list that breaks the consoles down into lists such as the Pets one.
I hope noone is surprised, that the vast majority of "good" or "OP" consoles are primarily force multipliers, and primarily found on KDF side, while the "weak" and "useless" (standard, usually self only 1 shot stuff) is found Fed side.
Elite Fleet Weapons?
KDF = Force Multiplier
Fed = Self only heal
Which ones did people flock to or complain about?
Which ones (outside of people who play uber-tank healers) do people avoid?
I'd say that x years of Force Mutliplier Consoles, Force Multiplier Pets and the only available functional cloaking & carriers for such an extended period unfortunately did severe and lasting damage to KDF side's general health with regards to faction image, powers balance and playability. It's unfortunate that KDF is still avoided by many, even though most things have been proliferated.
My thread exists specifically to highlight the problem of Force Multipliers, what they are, and what balance issues they present so that the mistakes of the past are hopefully at the least avoided, if not hopefully fixed *one day*.
I certainly hope so. My original thread title .... left a lot to be desired.
The new title suddenly has this thread hopping.
No it isn't. I mean, yes people could choose to not to use em, but some people did, and thus the damage was done.
But you should make that thread, Ultimatum, I'd support it, especially a thread about the Klingon stuff. I think the 'Klingon cheese' did far worse to the KDF faction than anything else.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
You can see the effect of this in PvE as well. A team with guys running APB, Grav Well, the SIC console, etc can wreck STFs in no time. That's how you clear Cure Space's optional in 5 minutes. I got used to that speed playing with my fleet and myself in my Prometheus (with Grav Well). When I was on my A2B Ha'feh and playing with a PESTF group it took over 10 minutes, and I was like "WTF, our DPS sucks". When I thought about it, our DPS was probably fine in an individual sense. We lacked force multipliers. I am still seeing that SIC console freakin EVERYWHERE in STFs though, nerfed though it may be.
You can see the effect of this in PvE as well. A team with guys running APB, Grav Well, the SIC console, etc can wreck STFs in no time. That's how you clear Cure Space's optional in 5 minutes.
Absolutely.
Although 5 mins on CSE is a little on the slow side. :P
Force Multipliers aren't inherently bad though, it's good that the mechanic exists and that players utilize it in coordinated fashion.
It just needs to be kept in check when it's placed on clicky consoles and set bonus powers.
Force Multipliers aren't inherently bad though, it's good that the mechanic exists and that players utilize it in coordinated fashion.
It just needs to be kept in check when it's placed on clicky consoles and set bonus powers.
Yup, agree. Grav Well takes a Lt. Cdr Sci slot. TBR has that, plus requires significant practice to use without creating a circus. APB can be slotted into a Lt. Tac, but risks denying you APO when you need it. These powers, therefore, have an opportunity cost when you could otherwise just stick to the more obvious DPS or healing skills. A console's opportunity cost can be very little. You go without a Neut or a Sci console? More than acceptable for a 1-click super debuff that turns the target into a sitting duck.
Yup, agree. Grav Well takes a Lt. Cdr Sci slot. TBR has that, plus requires significant practice to use without creating a circus. APB can be slotted into a Lt. Tac, but risks denying you APO when you need it. These powers, therefore, have an opportunity cost when you could otherwise just stick to the more obvious DPS or healing skills. A console's opportunity cost can be very little. You go without a Neut or a Sci console? More than acceptable for a 1-click super debuff that turns the target into a sitting duck.
Absolutely, and I think this is actually a good direction with less "must haves" and a lot of interesting choices.
I love choice, and I love interesting effects and powers - I just have concerns that are generally related to when those powers are force multipliers, as they tend to be the hardest to make both balanced and usable.
A large part of me still wishes that consoles that came with a cruiser (AMS, that emission seeking torp, Riker console etc) should be limited to that type of ship. AMS is a pain, but if Cryptic put the limiter of ship type back on a lot less people would find fault with it.
The same goes for consoles that come with escorts & sci ships. It would ultimately deduce choices we have but geared with a new DoFF pack that could give doffs to make the less useful consoles more powerful or at a reduced cooldown and we might lose just as much choice as we gain.
My C Store is full of ships that have rubbush consoles, i'd like some doffs to mix them into a build finally!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
A large part of me still wishes that consoles that came with a cruiser (AMS, that emission seeking torp, Riker console etc) should be limited to that type of ship. AMS is a pain, but if Cryptic put the limiter of ship type back on a lot less people would find fault with it.
The same goes for consoles that come with escorts & sci ships. It would ultimately deduce choices we have but geared with a new DoFF pack that could give doffs to make the less useful consoles more powerful or at a reduced cooldown and we might lose just as much choice as we gain.
My C Store is full of ships that have rubbush consoles, i'd like some doffs to mix them into a build finally!
Unfortunately their earlier strategy was flawed, they sold ships with consoles to entice but the game moved so heavily to "endgame" focus (which primarily means fleet level grind, and vanity items for your max level characters) that there is really little reason to own most low level ships without the consoles.
Even that wasn't enough, so then they made them universal below T4 (5?).
That gave a greater profitability angle.
Next came further change to implement cross-faction console proliferation with a new way of selling them > lockbox ships.
And finally we have the most recent strategy, that is working very well.
2 piece console sets for Low Tier/Mid Tier same ship combos.
1 off special consoles in lockboxes.
Special consoles in 2 piece sets in Lockbox + Lobi ship
PvP needs to be broken off into its own gear setup.
For anyone that has played Guild Wars they know what I mean... Ships need a PvP paper doll... a doll that can only equip PvP gear... set bonuses need to be remoeved in general (or PvP specific ones added to -p gear)... weapons need to loose there purple / Fleet status... and simply be "mk XII - p" Weapons with the same number of modifiers for everyone... and the idea of dual weapons removed from PvP.
Until Cryptic goes down that road this games PvP system will be forever flawed and nothing more then a diversion for true pvpers... while they are away from other more serious games.
That may seem harsh... it is however just the way it is.
I basically agree with what you are saying but feel the need to elaborate a bit further because I think there are many who would honestly miss your real point...
That being that with the way things are currently there is faaaaar too big of a gap between a good player in a free ship with average gear and a good player in a fleet or serious C-Store/Lobi ship with the top of the line gear. It is such a big gap that if those two players are similar skill level then the latter one will win every single time and handily at that.
Now a good number of people who play PvP prefer this super imbalance because they do not want a challenge or any real fight they just want to win again and again without worry that they may lose.
"Real" PvP'ers on the other hand, as you allude to, want the challenge of a match to be in strategy and execution of that strategy rather than who has the most OP gear and ship. Chess being a good example as both sides have all the same pieces leaving it up to the skill of the players to determine who will be victorious.
However... There is a dark side to all this which is that the PvP'ers who just want to win will pay whatever it takes to get the advantages they need to make up for their lack of skill and PWE is WELL aware of that... So who do you think they will pander to?
Well here is my idea... I'll try to flesh it out more.
1) They add a second paper doll. (think of your Shuttle paper doll you have now).
This ship doll would be for the ship you have now. (let people keep what ever ship they have... we don't want to make it a chore to pvp)
This ship however will only slot "-p" gear which would not fit on your normal doll. So this gear would ONLY work while you are in a PvP map. Your normal gear would not.
This would include weapons / deflectors / engines / shields / and consoles.
This would equalize all gear... the only thing that would change would be peoples load out. Cannons/beams/torps... which consoles ect.
Universal consoles could be handled in a very simple way... Everyones PvP paper doll would have 2 Universal Console slots. (thats right that would be increasing the total number of consoles people can have by 2)... it would however limit there total uni console setup to 2. This would allow people to bring there defiant cloaks ect... but not load ISO/Subspace/Rift/AMS/Leech at the same time ect ect.
2) When every you enter a PvP map.... either Qued or Open Sector... the game would switch your load out to your PvP paper doll. Activating that gear and deactivating your pve loadout.
As for what gear would be included... Think of Every type of weapon we have now... make basic MK XI versions of them with 1 mod. (thats right we can ALL pvp with green weapons)
Shields - again MK XI basic shields... NO maco... No borg... No fleet... The 3 standard types again with 1 mod.
Engines same thing.
Deflectors... same thing.
Consoles... Mk XI -p blues...
{EDIT - When I talk console / weapon color I only mean for effective values... the items should all be Orange or something so people don't confuse them with regular items}
Again this would all need to be free from a console somewhere... so people can setup however they want... and pvp.
Cryptic would have to NOT be adding -p gear with set bonuses to lockboxes and stuff or it would defeat the purpose completely.
3) When you load a PvP map... ALL rep bonuses need to be deactivated.
4) Doffs... touchy I would say there fine... however if they could be turned off that is one option... or perhaps have a second space/ground doff screen where you can slot PvP doffs... allow the slotting of the same doff... But at that point you could make it clear that doffs would have reduced effect in PvP ect. Would make it easy to balance doffs for PvP / PvE... perhaps even buffing some boffs in PvE only.
1) Create new Vanity Slots on the PvP doll... and include items for that In the lockboxes.
What if you could get special firework displays for your PvP Vanity Slot. OR special Emots for your ground Vanity slot. They could even offer special Vanity PvP Skins. (Think of the cool pain jobs they did for the summer ship... what if you could slot cool paint jobs on your PvP version of your ship.
Imagine.
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Klingon Logo Fireworks Display]
[Vanity Item - Ground PvP - Touch Down Dance]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Metalic Gold / Silver Ship Skin]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Rainbow Energy Weapon Effect]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Red/Black Energy Weapon Effect]
If they comboed my changes... with the changes I have talked about to the ques... making them TD style ques linked to a Leader board, that was balancing matches.
They would have something great that people would line up for... getting buts in the game makes them money in the end even if they don't directly make $ from a specific activity. People would still be after fleet ships and lockbox ships... even if all they did was pvp.
Force Multiplier: A force multiplier refers to a factor that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item.
Why would APA not be a force multiplier of an energy attack? Does it not increase the effectiveness of weapons by +All Damage Strength, +Critical Chance, & +Critical Severity
Force Multiplier: A force multiplier refers to a factor that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item.
Why would APA not be a force multiplier of an energy attack? Does it not increase the effectiveness of weapons by +All Damage Strength, +Critical Chance, & +Critical Severity
A simpler example is APO vs. APB. Both increase damage...one increases damage for you and one for everybody shooting at that target. Force Multiplier improves what the team's attempting to do...one of those things where you can think of force not only applying to what's being done, but also think of force as referring to the team.
Various target debuffs, control abilities, team buffs, etc...help the team. It's part of that coordinated effort rather than individual effort (one of the reasons that Eng get lambasted, they don't bring the team love like a Sci - they're not a force multiplier like a Sci with SNB, Sensor Scan, and Scattering Field...even the Tac can drop out a well timed FoMM - the Eng...nothing outside of Eng Fleet)...
A simpler example is APO vs. APB. Both increase damage...one increases damage for you and one for everybody shooting at that target. Force Multiplier improves what the team's attempting to do...one of those things where you can think of force not only applying to what's being done, but also think of force as referring to the team.
Various target debuffs, control abilities, team buffs, etc...help the team. It's part of that coordinated effort rather than individual effort (one of the reasons that Eng get lambasted, they don't bring the team love like a Sci - they're not a force multiplier like a Sci with SNB, Sensor Scan, and Scattering Field...even the Tac can drop out a well timed FoMM - the Eng...nothing outside of Eng Fleet)...
Indeed. That is partially why this recent trend of FAW-boats has been so potent. A team of 5 people can potentially go together, all using constant FAWs everywhere and stacking APB on everything all the time and simply overwhelm.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Force Multiplier: A force multiplier refers to a factor that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item.
Why would APA not be a force multiplier of an energy attack? Does it not increase the effectiveness of weapons by +All Damage Strength, +Critical Chance, & +Critical Severity
APA only boosts a force of one in the context of teamplay.
In that it improves multiple weapons/other sources of damage from a single captain (pets not included) it can be thought of a force multiplier for 1v1s.
But, again in this context it's teamplay.
For me, resist buffs and debuffs are obvious examples of force multipliers in that they boost others' effectiveness at repairs and damage. AoE or another form of team boosts are multi target force multipliers. Some Sci Captain abilities are an example of this.
A less obvious and not always true example is movement buffs and debuffs (not talking def vs acc just positioning). Movement buffs allow for better positioning and w/that initiative. Defensively it can allow for damage avoidance providing time for allies to repair, it can also put a player out of range of repairs. Offensively, it can position a player for an attack run, but it can also lead to overshooting (no pun intended) a target before the attach run has finished. These are situational if they are force multipliers or not.
Now to contradict the APA example from earlier, using APA w/an AoE damage ability may weaken multiple target shields to allow for things like FaW balls in that a threshold is reached where additional attacking forces AoE benefit from the damage inflicted. Following that a coordinated APA strafe that strips shields on a target that otherwise would've been able to maintain them allows for effective application of damage from other forces which may have been useless otherwise.
Follow all that? :P
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Force Multiplier: A force multiplier refers to a factor that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item.
Why would APA not be a force multiplier of an energy attack? Does it not increase the effectiveness of weapons by +All Damage Strength, +Critical Chance, & +Critical Severity
I think the other guys have all covered it well.
Not being a force multiplier doesn't necessarily make a statement about the power of an ability - its more about the potential of the ability as you channel other player's powers through it as well as what happens if you stack or chain such abilities.
So APA is individually strong on its own, and SNB is individually strong as well.
SNB however becomes a major power when you have other players on the team that can take advantage of the opening it creates.
APA never does that, APA on the other hand is the premiere ability to exploit the opening that SNB created.
So SNB enables the advantage, and APA exploits the advantage, in this context.
A less obvious and not always true example is movement buffs and debuffs (not talking def vs acc just positioning). Movement buffs allow for better positioning and w/that initiative. Defensively it can allow for damage avoidance providing time for allies to repair, it can also put a player out of range of repairs. Offensively, it can position a player for an attack run, but it can also lead to overshooting (no pun intended) a target before the attach run has finished. These are situational if they are force multipliers or not.
Absolutely.
Movement/control debuffs are clearly force multipliers.
They allow your entire team to capitalize on the effect.
Movement buffs are only force multipliers when they affect the entire team - for example the Dominion Coordination Protocol console from the JHHEC or the new Tac Profession Tac Fleet trait that adds movement buffs & debuff resistance to the entire team.
This game should have a resolve bar or whatever its called so that nobody can be exploited by others with force multipliers.
like if you are CC spammed at some point the bar is full and more CC simply doesnt effect the player no more.
crazy idea or good thought?
Not really, IMO.
People would test it to kingdom come and then figure out just how much they can do before it maxes out, and then things really wouldn't change all that much.
Besides, what counts as CC, and for how much? Does VM count with just being a systems disable? If so, how would the DOFFs count for it? Would EWP count? If so, does it only count if you are in the cloud, or does it count as long as you care taking damage from it?
Can CC-consoles count? Like Graviton Pulse. How much would it count for?
There is a LOT of factors going into it. Besides, it wouldn't really change things. People who mindlessly spam CC obviously would be affected, but those who chain and do it in an effective, team-based manor, wouldn't change much. Like chained Graviton Pulse. People who do that, would continue to do that, and just be a bit more careful about it in their timing.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
1) Create new Vanity Slots on the PvP doll... and include items for that In the lockboxes.
What if you could get special firework displays for your PvP Vanity Slot. OR special Emots for your ground Vanity slot. They could even offer special Vanity PvP Skins. (Think of the cool pain jobs they did for the summer ship... what if you could slot cool paint jobs on your PvP version of your ship.
Imagine.
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Klingon Logo Fireworks Display]
[Vanity Item - Ground PvP - Touch Down Dance]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Metalic Gold / Silver Ship Skin]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Rainbow Energy Weapon Effect]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Red/Black Energy Weapon Effect]
If they comboed my changes... with the changes I have talked about to the ques... making them TD style ques linked to a Leader board, that was balancing matches.
They would have something great that people would line up for... getting buts in the game makes them money in the end even if they don't directly make $ from a specific activity. People would still be after fleet ships and lockbox ships... even if all they did was pvp.
It is not a bad idea and your idea in general is a good one and probably one of the best for fixing PvP BUT... We have vanity items for sale in the main game as well and while they do get bought it appears that PWE does not find their sale to be good enough to sustain itself on.
Another huge problem is this: I have dealt with PWE in the past and I know the way they do things. I hate to break the bad news to you if you have not figured it out but they do not really care to have any sort of level playing field in PvP. They actively encourage ganking with high level equipment against lower level players in other games. Moreover one of their favorite solutions is to make it so that your gear can break in PvP so that you have to get new gear all of which comes at massive cost for the good stuff and you will need to pay them for. OOOR you can buy items that prevent the breaking or dropping of the gear from their Store. :rolleyes:
I will say this... A Black Hole would have a hard time sucking as hard as PWE when it comes to your wallet.
maybe These Consoles Should Have Team Cooldowns, Not As Long As The Base Cooldown Though. Like How Duplicate Boff Abilities Have Global Cooldowns, Just That Some Of These Consoles Global Should Be For The Whole Team. Also Ams Should Activate Global Cd On Subspace Integration Circuit And Vise Versa, I See These Chained Back To Back A Lot By Whole Teams.
Comments
The Borg console, the Tachyo console, the Zero Point Module, the Leech console, the new armor consoles, the new RCS consoles and everything else that the decerning Pewer uses.
I'd rather have more choice then more limitations, but am i the only one where who struggles to decide?
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
You aren't alone there, with all of the very nice universal consoles ingame, it's difficult to decide what will fit best on a space PvP build.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Absolutely, and I think this is actually a good direction with less "must haves" and a lot of interesting choices.
I love choice, and I love interesting effects and powers - I just have concerns that are generally related to when those powers are force multipliers, as they tend to be the hardest to make both balanced and usable.
It's how things should be, but it tends not to work that way. Every choice we make should be a hard choice - do we want X or do we want Y? IMHO, we don't have enough of those choices - there are things that are good, things that outright suck, and things folks complain are OP. It generally makes most decisions easier...what Cryptic appears to be getting around to is offering more choices that don't suck, and thus introducing those choices that should have been there from the start.
Don't also forget that much of that same stuff that people considered to be 'Klingon cheese' was why they didn't want to play against Klingons in PvP.
Also, 'consoles gone wild', are we gonna see a commercial early in the morning of the 'cheese' consoles going 'wild and crazy' at 2 AM?
It's not really the fault of Klingons, but when I get around to it I'm going to create a list that breaks the consoles down into lists such as the Pets one.
I hope noone is surprised, that the vast majority of "good" or "OP" consoles are primarily force multipliers, and primarily found on KDF side, while the "weak" and "useless" (standard, usually self only 1 shot stuff) is found Fed side.
Elite Fleet Weapons?
KDF = Force Multiplier
Fed = Self only heal
Which ones did people flock to or complain about?
Which ones (outside of people who play uber-tank healers) do people avoid?
I'd say that x years of Force Mutliplier Consoles, Force Multiplier Pets and the only available functional cloaking & carriers for such an extended period unfortunately did severe and lasting damage to KDF side's general health with regards to faction image, powers balance and playability. It's unfortunate that KDF is still avoided by many, even though most things have been proliferated.
My thread exists specifically to highlight the problem of Force Multipliers, what they are, and what balance issues they present so that the mistakes of the past are hopefully at the least avoided, if not hopefully fixed *one day*.
I certainly hope so. My original thread title .... left a lot to be desired.
The new title suddenly has this thread hopping.
No it isn't. I mean, yes people could choose to not to use em, but some people did, and thus the damage was done.
But you should make that thread, Ultimatum, I'd support it, especially a thread about the Klingon stuff. I think the 'Klingon cheese' did far worse to the KDF faction than anything else.
Heh, no kidding there though.
Great thread.
Absolutely.
Although 5 mins on CSE is a little on the slow side. :P
Force Multipliers aren't inherently bad though, it's good that the mechanic exists and that players utilize it in coordinated fashion.
It just needs to be kept in check when it's placed on clicky consoles and set bonus powers.
Yup, agree. Grav Well takes a Lt. Cdr Sci slot. TBR has that, plus requires significant practice to use without creating a circus. APB can be slotted into a Lt. Tac, but risks denying you APO when you need it. These powers, therefore, have an opportunity cost when you could otherwise just stick to the more obvious DPS or healing skills. A console's opportunity cost can be very little. You go without a Neut or a Sci console? More than acceptable for a 1-click super debuff that turns the target into a sitting duck.
Absolutely, all good points.
A large part of me still wishes that consoles that came with a cruiser (AMS, that emission seeking torp, Riker console etc) should be limited to that type of ship. AMS is a pain, but if Cryptic put the limiter of ship type back on a lot less people would find fault with it.
The same goes for consoles that come with escorts & sci ships. It would ultimately deduce choices we have but geared with a new DoFF pack that could give doffs to make the less useful consoles more powerful or at a reduced cooldown and we might lose just as much choice as we gain.
My C Store is full of ships that have rubbush consoles, i'd like some doffs to mix them into a build finally!
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Unfortunately their earlier strategy was flawed, they sold ships with consoles to entice but the game moved so heavily to "endgame" focus (which primarily means fleet level grind, and vanity items for your max level characters) that there is really little reason to own most low level ships without the consoles.
Even that wasn't enough, so then they made them universal below T4 (5?).
That gave a greater profitability angle.
Next came further change to implement cross-faction console proliferation with a new way of selling them > lockbox ships.
And finally we have the most recent strategy, that is working very well.
2 piece console sets for Low Tier/Mid Tier same ship combos.
1 off special consoles in lockboxes.
Special consoles in 2 piece sets in Lockbox + Lobi ship
Special item/console sets in Lobi store.
I basically agree with what you are saying but feel the need to elaborate a bit further because I think there are many who would honestly miss your real point...
That being that with the way things are currently there is faaaaar too big of a gap between a good player in a free ship with average gear and a good player in a fleet or serious C-Store/Lobi ship with the top of the line gear. It is such a big gap that if those two players are similar skill level then the latter one will win every single time and handily at that.
Now a good number of people who play PvP prefer this super imbalance because they do not want a challenge or any real fight they just want to win again and again without worry that they may lose.
"Real" PvP'ers on the other hand, as you allude to, want the challenge of a match to be in strategy and execution of that strategy rather than who has the most OP gear and ship. Chess being a good example as both sides have all the same pieces leaving it up to the skill of the players to determine who will be victorious.
However... There is a dark side to all this which is that the PvP'ers who just want to win will pay whatever it takes to get the advantages they need to make up for their lack of skill and PWE is WELL aware of that... So who do you think they will pander to?
1) They add a second paper doll. (think of your Shuttle paper doll you have now).
This ship doll would be for the ship you have now. (let people keep what ever ship they have... we don't want to make it a chore to pvp)
This ship however will only slot "-p" gear which would not fit on your normal doll. So this gear would ONLY work while you are in a PvP map. Your normal gear would not.
This would include weapons / deflectors / engines / shields / and consoles.
This would equalize all gear... the only thing that would change would be peoples load out. Cannons/beams/torps... which consoles ect.
Universal consoles could be handled in a very simple way... Everyones PvP paper doll would have 2 Universal Console slots. (thats right that would be increasing the total number of consoles people can have by 2)... it would however limit there total uni console setup to 2. This would allow people to bring there defiant cloaks ect... but not load ISO/Subspace/Rift/AMS/Leech at the same time ect ect.
2) When every you enter a PvP map.... either Qued or Open Sector... the game would switch your load out to your PvP paper doll. Activating that gear and deactivating your pve loadout.
As for what gear would be included... Think of Every type of weapon we have now... make basic MK XI versions of them with 1 mod. (thats right we can ALL pvp with green weapons)
Shields - again MK XI basic shields... NO maco... No borg... No fleet... The 3 standard types again with 1 mod.
Engines same thing.
Deflectors... same thing.
Consoles... Mk XI -p blues...
{EDIT - When I talk console / weapon color I only mean for effective values... the items should all be Orange or something so people don't confuse them with regular items}
Again this would all need to be free from a console somewhere... so people can setup however they want... and pvp.
Cryptic would have to NOT be adding -p gear with set bonuses to lockboxes and stuff or it would defeat the purpose completely.
3) When you load a PvP map... ALL rep bonuses need to be deactivated.
4) Doffs... touchy I would say there fine... however if they could be turned off that is one option... or perhaps have a second space/ground doff screen where you can slot PvP doffs... allow the slotting of the same doff... But at that point you could make it clear that doffs would have reduced effect in PvP ect. Would make it easy to balance doffs for PvP / PvE... perhaps even buffing some boffs in PvE only.
1) Create new Vanity Slots on the PvP doll... and include items for that In the lockboxes.
What if you could get special firework displays for your PvP Vanity Slot. OR special Emots for your ground Vanity slot. They could even offer special Vanity PvP Skins. (Think of the cool pain jobs they did for the summer ship... what if you could slot cool paint jobs on your PvP version of your ship.
Imagine.
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Klingon Logo Fireworks Display]
[Vanity Item - Ground PvP - Touch Down Dance]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Metalic Gold / Silver Ship Skin]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Rainbow Energy Weapon Effect]
[Vanity Item - Space PvP - Red/Black Energy Weapon Effect]
If they comboed my changes... with the changes I have talked about to the ques... making them TD style ques linked to a Leader board, that was balancing matches.
They would have something great that people would line up for... getting buts in the game makes them money in the end even if they don't directly make $ from a specific activity. People would still be after fleet ships and lockbox ships... even if all they did was pvp.
Force Multiplier: A force multiplier refers to a factor that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item.
Why would APA not be a force multiplier of an energy attack? Does it not increase the effectiveness of weapons by +All Damage Strength, +Critical Chance, & +Critical Severity
A simpler example is APO vs. APB. Both increase damage...one increases damage for you and one for everybody shooting at that target. Force Multiplier improves what the team's attempting to do...one of those things where you can think of force not only applying to what's being done, but also think of force as referring to the team.
Various target debuffs, control abilities, team buffs, etc...help the team. It's part of that coordinated effort rather than individual effort (one of the reasons that Eng get lambasted, they don't bring the team love like a Sci - they're not a force multiplier like a Sci with SNB, Sensor Scan, and Scattering Field...even the Tac can drop out a well timed FoMM - the Eng...nothing outside of Eng Fleet)...
Indeed. That is partially why this recent trend of FAW-boats has been so potent. A team of 5 people can potentially go together, all using constant FAWs everywhere and stacking APB on everything all the time and simply overwhelm.
APA only boosts a force of one in the context of teamplay.
In that it improves multiple weapons/other sources of damage from a single captain (pets not included) it can be thought of a force multiplier for 1v1s.
But, again in this context it's teamplay.
For me, resist buffs and debuffs are obvious examples of force multipliers in that they boost others' effectiveness at repairs and damage. AoE or another form of team boosts are multi target force multipliers. Some Sci Captain abilities are an example of this.
A less obvious and not always true example is movement buffs and debuffs (not talking def vs acc just positioning). Movement buffs allow for better positioning and w/that initiative. Defensively it can allow for damage avoidance providing time for allies to repair, it can also put a player out of range of repairs. Offensively, it can position a player for an attack run, but it can also lead to overshooting (no pun intended) a target before the attach run has finished. These are situational if they are force multipliers or not.
Now to contradict the APA example from earlier, using APA w/an AoE damage ability may weaken multiple target shields to allow for things like FaW balls in that a threshold is reached where additional attacking forces AoE benefit from the damage inflicted. Following that a coordinated APA strafe that strips shields on a target that otherwise would've been able to maintain them allows for effective application of damage from other forces which may have been useless otherwise.
Follow all that? :P
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I think the other guys have all covered it well.
Not being a force multiplier doesn't necessarily make a statement about the power of an ability - its more about the potential of the ability as you channel other player's powers through it as well as what happens if you stack or chain such abilities.
So APA is individually strong on its own, and SNB is individually strong as well.
SNB however becomes a major power when you have other players on the team that can take advantage of the opening it creates.
APA never does that, APA on the other hand is the premiere ability to exploit the opening that SNB created.
So SNB enables the advantage, and APA exploits the advantage, in this context.
Absolutely.
Movement/control debuffs are clearly force multipliers.
They allow your entire team to capitalize on the effect.
Movement buffs are only force multipliers when they affect the entire team - for example the Dominion Coordination Protocol console from the JHHEC or the new Tac Profession Tac Fleet trait that adds movement buffs & debuff resistance to the entire team.
like if you are CC spammed at some point the bar is full and more CC simply doesnt effect the player no more.
crazy idea or good thought?
Not really, IMO.
People would test it to kingdom come and then figure out just how much they can do before it maxes out, and then things really wouldn't change all that much.
Besides, what counts as CC, and for how much? Does VM count with just being a systems disable? If so, how would the DOFFs count for it? Would EWP count? If so, does it only count if you are in the cloud, or does it count as long as you care taking damage from it?
Can CC-consoles count? Like Graviton Pulse. How much would it count for?
There is a LOT of factors going into it. Besides, it wouldn't really change things. People who mindlessly spam CC obviously would be affected, but those who chain and do it in an effective, team-based manor, wouldn't change much. Like chained Graviton Pulse. People who do that, would continue to do that, and just be a bit more careful about it in their timing.
It is not a bad idea and your idea in general is a good one and probably one of the best for fixing PvP BUT... We have vanity items for sale in the main game as well and while they do get bought it appears that PWE does not find their sale to be good enough to sustain itself on.
Another huge problem is this: I have dealt with PWE in the past and I know the way they do things. I hate to break the bad news to you if you have not figured it out but they do not really care to have any sort of level playing field in PvP. They actively encourage ganking with high level equipment against lower level players in other games. Moreover one of their favorite solutions is to make it so that your gear can break in PvP so that you have to get new gear all of which comes at massive cost for the good stuff and you will need to pay them for. OOOR you can buy items that prevent the breaking or dropping of the gear from their Store. :rolleyes:
I will say this... A Black Hole would have a hard time sucking as hard as PWE when it comes to your wallet.
^^^this^^^
It would definitely go along way to curbing their coordinated use.
Usually most of these AoE force multipliers or AoE damage consoles aren't so problematic when one ship uses them.
When multiple ships chain them with other consoles, is generally when the whole thing becomes completely unbalanced.
So something like a team based cooldown for any AoE force multiplier would be a great start. 60s to 120s for example.