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Dyson Sphere Pillar, next Fleet Holding

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  • reximuzreximuz Member Posts: 1,172 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    Um.. what? Most depictions of the Dyson sphere, even in TNG was about harnessing energy on the inside not building communities on the inside where everybody walks around with a spinning sphere to create gravity. There have been some poetic attempts at a society inside but that's like saying, you want to create a surface value hundreds or thousands the surface value of Jupiter, compile more dirt/water/air etc on the inside.. It just doesn't make any pragmatic sense nor would that actually work.

    The sun's constant barrage of energy would fry anything in its wake. The only reason we don't experience that is due to a natural magnetic shielding the earth produces. Spires on the inside seem fine.. It's just really tacky to try and put trees and rivers and such on the inside because nobody in their right mind would attempt that across the cosmos and nor would it work.

    You need to watch TNG: Relics again, because that Dyson Sphere clearly had a Earth like environment on the inner surface. Besides, a society that advanced would be able to provide radiation shielding. Shell type Dyson structures are usually depicted as using the inner surface for habitation.
  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    I don't mind having a Fleet Pillar project added to the Fleet System. The only drawback to these Rep-grind systems is the number of Mission you get to earn the required Mark-types. What makes things feel grinding is the limited number of ways you can earn the Marks. Hopefully there will be more than a handful of Mission types within the Sphere to earn the required Marks.

    me too, variety is the spice of life after all
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    Sto forums are full of Armchair Lawyers, Engineers, Developers, Doctors, Historians and now Armchair Theoretical Physicists.:eek:

    don't forget Keyboard Warriers! Qa'Pla!
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    These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    Exactly. That dyson episode seems to have this earth-like atmosphere on the inside, without magnetism of some sort at least it'd be hyper charged in particles lol.. Even science fiction can be ridiculous.. We saw that in the 1950's where we thought the better the tech, the more blinky the lights and bigger the master laboratory had to be. Now we know computers can be compact and don't need a bunch of christmas lights to operate.

    For all we know the purpose of those humongous great spires is to transfer that charge harmlessly to the outer shell. It's also possible that the structure of the sphere is full of giant electromagnets to simulate a magnetosphere. Or it could all be done with forcefields; who knows? The level of technology required to build a Dyson Sphere is staggering; there's no saying what its builders could do.
  • cptjhuntercptjhunter Member Posts: 2,288 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    alikain wrote: »
    with all this fleet stuff i sure hope, you guys haven't forgot about those who are not in fleets. the reason i say this is because the fleet stuff are more powerful than normal, which mean for those in fleet do have advantage of those who are not. am not saying that those who are in fleet doesn't deserve to have their gadgets. just something cryptic you need to think about.

    My KDF characters are fleet less, and with the STF gear, and rep awards, they are mostly equipt with High end purple XII gear. In fact, selling the "garbage" resources they have no use for to fleet builders on the exchange has made my Main KDF toon very wealthy.If he can't earn the high end gear from mission rewards now, he can certainly afford it.:)
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    If I'm right and that thing is a spire/pillar, then it appears to be big enough to contain a bunch of buildings. Maybe the Spire/Pillars are what passes for cities, maybe they're like the Arcologies from Simcity.
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cptjhunter wrote: »
    My KDF characters are fleet less, and with the STF gear, and rep awards, they are mostly equipt with High end purple XII gear. In fact, selling the "garbage" resources they have no use for to fleet builders on the exchange has made my Main KDF toon very wealthy.If he can't earn the high end gear from mission rewards now, he can certainly afford it.:)

    Yeah, only fleet gear I am using is my 2 forward DHC's and 2 forward DBB's.... everything else is either eschange or rep gear. I'm about to go either XII MACO or Borg space this weekend when I complete my borg rep.... may even getg both.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    reximuz wrote: »
    You need to watch TNG: Relics again, because that Dyson Sphere clearly had a Earth like environment on the inner surface. Besides, a society that advanced would be able to provide radiation shielding. Shell type Dyson structures are usually depicted as using the inner surface for habitation.

    Looks like you didn't read the entire thread before jumping to post. Mistakes happen, especially if you read the entirety ;)
    May good management be with you.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    hevach wrote: »
    And now you're actively lying about what I've said, so I think we've finally come full circle on admitting you're wrong. I mentioned Venus's induced magnetic field multiple times, going back to my first post about Earth's magnetic field and my link storm. AANDA's model proves the Earth's atmosphere would induce the same type of field if the geomagnetic field were absent.

    Oh give it up.. Anybody can read the thread, I may have lacklustered a memory about the dyson episode (and albeit I was wrong) but you're not a cosmologist and you've been stumbling with whatever point you're trying to make here, it's certainly lost in obscurity.

    Pretty sure my mind blocked it out because of how preposterous an inside atmosphere is inside a dyson sphere. But hey sci fi for ya.

    Moving on
    May good management be with you.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    If I'm right and that thing is a spire/pillar, then it appears to be big enough to contain a bunch of buildings. Maybe the Spire/Pillars are what passes for cities, maybe they're like the Arcologies from Simcity.

    Yeah.. That is kinda sim city-esque.. If whatever society built the sphere could create a concave environment of massive proportions I'd expect a lot better than a few tac consoles with minor addons lol
    May good management be with you.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    Oh give it up.. Anybody can read the thread, I may have lacklustered a memory about the dyson episode (and albeit I was wrong) but you're not a cosmologist and you've been stumbling with whatever point you're trying to make here, it's certainly lost in obscurity.

    Pretty sure my mind blocked it out because of how preposterous an inside atmosphere is inside a dyson sphere. But hey sci fi for ya.

    Moving on

    This whole talk about magnetospheres on other planets is completely meaningless to a Dyson Sphere. 25th Century Federation has force fields, gravity plates, structural integrity fields that would help in creating a viable Dyson Sphere. A race that could create a Dyson Sphere would be so advanced that any concern we or 25th Century Federation might have about it is not a concern. A Dyson Sphere could have a force field or a transparent material stronger than transparent aluminum and can be adjusted to create a simulated night sky to contain the atmosphere. They could phase it out of reality, cloak it, or do whatever they want with a Dyson Sphere. An inside atmosphere inside a Dyson Sphere created by a highly advanced race is not preposterous, it makes complete logical sense.
  • tacofangstacofangs Member Posts: 2,951 Cryptic Developer
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    Interesting but.. I'm pretty sure that looks really weird. Especially since a Dyson sphere, being that of spherical is supposed to look like this:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=LWI7SsaSBQTUvM&tbnid=G3jH5aiP-9-OzM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fio9.com%2F5797597%2Fare-we-surrounded-by-dyson-spheres&ei=C8kgUuO3C8W7iwL4kYHwDA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.cGE&psig=AFQjCNHzYIjYfrzX0IJ_SZmlOJUOA7yNPA&ust=1377966640955708

    The one from TNG was a massive metal largely irregular, spherical in nature construct. If anything it should realistically be thusly so, not some tower hanging out on a planet(which that picture seems to indicate).

    That's no planet. . .
    kortaag wrote: »
    Um.. what? Most depictions of the Dyson sphere, even in TNG was about harnessing energy on the inside not building communities on the inside where everybody walks around with a spinning sphere to create gravity.

    ORLY?


    Upon further reading:
    You know. . . nevermind, I don't want to get into this again.
    Only YOU can prevent forum fires!
    19843299196_235e44bcf6_o.jpg
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    This whole talk about magnetospheres on other planets is completely meaningless to a Dyson Sphere. 25th Century Federation has force fields, gravity plates, structural integrity fields that would help in creating a viable Dyson Sphere. A race that could create a Dyson Sphere would be so advanced that any concern we or 25th Century Federation might have about it is not a concern. A Dyson Sphere could have a force field or a transparent material stronger than transparent aluminum and can be adjusted to create a simulated night sky to contain the atmosphere. They could phase it out of reality, cloak it, or do whatever they want with a Dyson Sphere. An inside atmosphere inside a Dyson Sphere created by a highly advanced race is not preposterous, it makes complete logical sense.

    Well, on the contrary, most seem to think a sun is just this cute ball of slowly burning mass. There's a lot more that happens like coronal mass ejections that happen more often than people think. An object which is truly highly volatile in close range would largely negate most pragmatic approaches at an inside environment being livable. Even those great force fields we've come to love are no match for a colossal magnetic arc which would surely latch out to the inner circumference. This is why the dyson sphere theories that involve collection on the entirety of the surface makes more sense.

    All those ideals of simulated night skies would much moreso pragmatically be involved in a normal manner where the surface area of a convex surface area would be much easier.

    But since we're debating something purely fictional to the best of our knowledge and empirical capacity. I'd say the community who's got what I'm talking about has the right idea. But hey that's an opinion too, isn't it?
    May good management be with you.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    tacofangs wrote: »
    That's no planet. . .



    ORLY?


    Upon further reading:
    You know. . . nevermind, I don't want to get into this again.

    To be human is to err. Just like you didn't read the rest of the thread before posting, I've already addressed this. I blocked out the last half of the dyson episode because of the preposterous nature of a breathable environment on the inside. (even with force fields etc etc etc).

    No worries. No harm done. Just a bunch of cats flying on the wings of speculation.
    May good management be with you.
  • logicalspocklogicalspock Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The next fleet holding will be a Tribble Farm for Feds and a Targ farm for KDF. Rather than using the normal reputation system where fleets put assets toward projects they want to complete, Cryptic has opted to outsource the development to the Zynga, the creators of Farmville. They will develop a unique form of STO social networking farm game that will be used to complete the fleet holding.


    Unlike previous reputation projects where you farmed STO missions, this one can only be completed either through the STO gateway or with the help of your Facebook friends.

    Farming in STO just took on a complete new meaning!
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    Well, on the contrary, most seem to think a sun is just this cute ball of slowly burning mass. There's a lot more that happens like coronal mass ejections that happen more often than people think. An object which is truly highly volatile in close range would largely negate most pragmatic approaches at an inside environment being livable. Even those great force fields we've come to love are no match for a colossal magnetic arc which would surely latch out to the inner circumference. This is why the dyson sphere theories that involve collection on the entirety of the surface makes more sense.

    All those ideals of simulated night skies would much moreso pragmatically be involved in a normal manner where the surface area of a convex surface area would be much easier.

    But since we're debating something purely fictional to the best of our knowledge and empirical capacity. I'd say the community who's got what I'm talking about has the right idea. But hey that's an opinion too, isn't it?

    And a race advanced enough to build a Dyson Sphere would be advanced enough to deal with anything that a star could throw at them. Even controlling the star so that it wouldn't produce colossal magnetic arcs or harness those colossal magnetic arcs.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    And a race advanced enough to build a Dyson Sphere would be advanced enough to deal with anything that a star could throw at them. Even controlling the star so that it wouldn't produce colossal magnetic arcs or harness those colossal magnetic arcs.

    I guess you could explain it all way just as easy but calling it one of Q's endless charades and such. Even though I highly dislike the Q episodes, that would actually make more sense as much as I'd hate to admit it.
    May good management be with you.
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,987 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    hdoggy wrote: »
    I doubt we're BUILDING one, but I'd say there's plenty of room on a sphere that surrounds an entire star.

    Depends on how puny your civilization is.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    I guess you could explain it all way just as easy but calling it one of Q's endless charades and such. Even though I highly dislike the Q episodes, that would actually make more sense as much as I'd hate to admit it.

    Why does a Dyson Sphere have to be explained away? The Iconian Gateways aren't explained away. Just highly advanced races that uses technology far beyond our understanding. That is really the only explanation that is needed. Explaining it away through Q cheapens whoever created it.
  • mrsladewilsonmrsladewilson Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Depends on how puny your civilization is.

    What? I mean...what?

    For example, it's hard to know exactly how big the Federation is. According to Memory Alpha, it was once stated to encompass over a thousand worlds.

    But let's say that was a low-ball estimate. A real low-ball estimate. Let's say it's not ten times that number, or 100 times that number, or even 1000 times that number. Let's say that estimate was off the mark by a factor of TEN THOUSAND. Let's say that the Federation encompasses ten MILLION worlds. (There's no way it does, but it gives us an upper boundary to play with.)

    You could drop the populations of ten million worlds on a Dyson sphere with ease; in fact, one would probably still consider the population level to be "sparse." Remember, a Dyson sphere has 500 MILLION times the surface area of the Earth.

    "Puny?" Hah.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Depends on how puny your civilization is.
    A Dyson sphere, even a small one could house several trillion inhabitants, probably the entirety of the population of the alpha quadrant, in the interior surface.

    Those things are MASSIVE.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    Why does a Dyson Sphere have to be explained away? The Iconian Gateways aren't explained away. Just highly advanced races that uses technology far beyond our understanding. That is really the only explanation that is needed. Explaining it away through Q cheapens whoever created it.

    It's the same premise. If I settled for "oh well it's beyond my understanding" and accept that as the only thing I needed to understand, I probably wouldn't like sci fi to begin with.
    May good management be with you.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    What? I mean...what?

    For example, it's hard to know exactly how big the Federation is. According to Memory Alpha, it was once stated to encompass over a thousand worlds.

    But let's say that was a low-ball estimate. A real low-ball estimate. Let's say it's not ten times that number, or 100 times that number, or even 1000 times that number. Let's say that estimate was off the mark by a factor of TEN THOUSAND. Let's say that the Federation encompasses ten MILLION worlds. (There's no way it does, but it gives us an upper boundary to play with.)

    You could drop the populations of ten million worlds on a Dyson sphere with ease; in fact, one would probably still consider the population level to be "sparse." Remember, a Dyson sphere has 500 MILLION times the surface area of the Earth.

    "Puny?" Hah.

    :)

    Good point. On that note, I doubt that so many civilizations would lay down their cards and risk hanging out so incredibly close to an otherwise unforgiving environment. Even with whatever sci fi theory may speculate.
    May good management be with you.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    It's the same premise. If I settled for "oh well it's beyond my understanding" and accept that as the only thing I needed to understand, I probably wouldn't like sci fi to begin with.

    Technology that is a few hundred years in the future should be explained away to some point, but stuff that is hundreds of thousands or millions of years in the future can't be explained away since it would be like trying to explain Quantum Mechanics to a caveman. Even then, most of us can't understand Quantum Mechanics, but we are less confused when someone tries to explain it to us compared to how confused the cave man would be.

    Not everything in Star Trek can be explained away now, but we will eventually come to the point where we can recreate it if possible like Dyson Spheres and Iconian Gateways. Just because you can't understand how people could deal with the problems associated with a Dyson Sphere doesn't mean other people can't as well. Where you see a problem, others see a benefit. A colossal magnetic arc might be a completely devastating event to humans in the 21st Century, but in the 99th Century it could be just another power source or sport event. We might surf on waves, but they might surf on colossal magnetic arcs.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    Technology that is a few hundred years in the future should be explained away to some point, but stuff that is hundreds of thousands or millions of years in the future can't be explained away since it would be like trying to explain Quantum Mechanics to a caveman. Even then, most of us can't understand Quantum Mechanics, but we are less confused when someone tries to explain it to us compared to how confused the cave man would be.

    Not everything in Star Trek can be explained away now, but we will eventually come to the point where we can recreate it if possible like Dyson Spheres and Iconian Gateways. Just because you can't understand how people could deal with the problems associated with a Dyson Sphere doesn't mean other people can't as well. Where you see a problem, others see a benefit. A colossal magnetic arc might be a completely devastating event to humans in the 21st Century, but in the 99th Century it could be just another power source or sport event. We might surf on waves, but they might surf on colossal magnetic arcs.

    A dyson sphere is a concept dreamt from our current conceptualization and understandings at the time it was put on TV. You don't see the terrible irony with the point you're trying to make here? I mean really? It showed mountains and oceans, not aliens hanging 10 on galactic surf boards.
    May good management be with you.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    A dyson sphere is a concept dreamt from our current conceptualization and understandings at the time it was put on TV. You don't see the terrible irony with the point you're trying to make here? I mean really? It showed mountains and oceans, not aliens hanging 10 on galactic surf boards.
    There were people living inside the Sphere at one point, but they left when the star became unstable. Maybe if we'd gotten there a few centuries sooner we would have seen those aliens hanging 10. :D
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    kortaag wrote: »
    A dyson sphere is a concept dreamt from our current conceptualization and understandings at the time it was put on TV. You don't see the terrible irony with the point you're trying to make here? I mean really? It showed mountains and oceans, not aliens hanging 10 on galactic surf boards.

    And what is so difficult to understand about that? A person can easily perceive some concept, but have no way to put it into practice like the Dyson Sphere and Space Elevator. The understanding to put it into practice is probably beyond our understanding. Although most Science Fiction with biospheres with mountains and bodies of water are limited in scope it is not unrealistic to assume that if a race can create a Dyson Sphere, then they would modify it to be as close to home as possible. An advanced race can live in a mountainous region with oceans nearby while hanging 10 on galactic surf boards. We can only travel as far as we can dream. So limiting our dreams to the solar system will limit us to the solar system while having no limit to our dreams will make us reach the ends of the universe at some point.
  • kortaagkortaag Member Posts: 525
    edited August 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    And what is so difficult to understand about that? A person can easily perceive some concept, but have no way to put it into practice like the Dyson Sphere and Space Elevator. The understanding to put it into practice is probably beyond our understanding. Although most Science Fiction with biospheres with mountains and bodies of water are limited in scope it is not unrealistic to assume that if a race can create a Dyson Sphere, then they would modify it to be as close to home as possible. An advanced race can live in a mountainous region with oceans nearby while hanging 10 on galactic surf boards. We can only travel as far as we can dream. So limiting our dreams to the solar system will limit us to the solar system while having no limit to our dreams will make us reach the ends of the universe at some point.

    Ironically the point you made is my own. At the time somebody really invested stock in painting the idea that you could virtually turn a world inside out and intimately hug a star. It's a cute idea but it bodes badly with the reality of what we've learned of stars.

    I would bet that any respectable cosmologist would chuckle at the dyson episode while appreciating the stretch of imagination.

    I'm just hoping Cryptic will employ some of that recent concept art into this as a liason for some of us who like detail.
    May good management be with you.
  • jheinigjheinig Member Posts: 364 Cryptic Developer
    edited August 2013
    Type II Kardashev civilization!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,588 Community Moderator
    edited August 2013
    Any civilization advanced enough to build a Dyson Sphere may also be advanced enough to actually create an artificial star as well. Even by the 25th Century, the ability to create a Dyson Sphere goes beyond anything any known species can do.

    Now... as to the issue of habitable areas on a concave surface... there are at least 3 examples outside of Star Trek that I know of.
    Green Sector on Babylon 5 (Inside the station itself): http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080428060812/babylon5/images/3/33/The_Gardens01.jpg
    The Halos in Halo: http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/2/2f/Installation_04_%282%29.JPG
    The "Shield World" from Halo Wars: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_0459

    Babylon 5 achieves gravity via rotation, so "Out is Down" in case anyone wanted to jump on that.
    The Halo rings are clearly advanced structures capable of maintaining an Earth like environment on the inner surface.
    The Shield World could in fact be considered a Dyson Sphere, but with a habitable surface on BOTH the outside and the inside.

    Other than B5 itself the examples given are of a technology FAR beyond anything Modern Science or even 25th Century science can explain.
    There are wonders out there that can't be explained. Why dissect it? Just accept that some ancient species decided to build a frickin' huge ball in space and make the inside habitable. Dissecting it would be like trying to discuss the plausibility of the necessary thrust required to propel the Death Star around the Galaxy!

    Now... ON topic... Taking control of a Pillar inside the Dyson Sphere sounds cool.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    jheinig wrote: »
    Type II Kardashev civilization!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale
    I can barely recycle. I don't even really fit on that scale. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
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