I totally forgive thissler for having a bad attitude writing this OP. By the time I got to the meat of the post I was crying into my scotch.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Here's a tip. If you EVER used the terms "bleed, pressure, or per second as modifiers of the word 'damage' you don't get it. So if you find that statement offensive, assuming you're reading this after the first paragraph, this post really isn't for you.
I'm gonna do what I normally do and prove to Thissler that IDK what the hell he's talking about by expounding on it in all the wrong ways.
Everybody calm down, DPS is still king. In the way that MPH(KPH) is king in NASCAR (Formula 1). How do you win the race? Going fast. See, DPS is all that matters just like going fast is all that matters to race car drivers.
Wait, what? You're telling me that the person in the car that has a top speed of 212 mph doesn't automatically beat the guy in the car that only goes 210?
Ah, the winner has to actually get in front of the other guy. Like, put the back end of his car ahead of the front end of the other guy's car. But that's not speed, exactly, that lets him do it. Since there's no term to actually describe it available in human thinking I'm going to invent one and call it distance per second per second. What? Somebody already named that "acceleration"? Why wasn't I told?
So my lovelies, the next time somebody asks you what your dps is, you can call them a noob and tell them that you're more interested in d/s^2.
Continuing in my quest to prove to thissler that I don't get it, let's stick with my race car analogy. Acc is your ability to keep your foot on the gas. Def is the weaving about the other guy does. A Def failure lets you pass, and if Acc beats Def by enough you get to clip him as you go by and put him into the wall as a bonus. A tractor beam destroys his Def so you can floor it on the straightaway.
Now, you've beaten Def, you've got your lane for passing (your shots are landing). You're going 2mph faster than he is. Nothing can stop you now, because you are faster. Except that as you pass him he turns his head and you realize that the driver of the other car is Bugs Bunny. He winks at you and activates his resistance buffs. Suddenly the front of his car is farther away, in fact his car is the size of a limo. But that's ok, you're still going faster, you'll get there eventually. But you won't, because now his car stretches halfway around the track and you have to take your foot off the gas for a turn.
As you resume your place behind Bugs you notice Thissler the Roadrunner is still at the starting line casually pecking away at some birdseed. Thissler hasn't mattered because he never started the race. When the green flag waived he just stood there with the birdseed. But now, Bugs is a quarter lap from the finish line of this non-nonsensical one-lap race. There's a puff of smoke where Thissler used to be and suddenly they're waiving the checkered flag. How could he win? Everybody was going faster than he was the whole time. Except for the tiny moment where he accelerated all at once. Bugs had no chance to make the front of his car farther away. In fact, he accelerated so fast it looked like cheating. It looked like nothing at all, really, because most people couldn't understand how it happened.
And now, like chlam, I am going to prove that I have no idea what Thissler was actually trying to say. By shooting my mouth off, right here, right now.
I mean think about it. People exterminating others in 1v1s in less than a second? I don't think that was ever intended. But it's here now. And the devs did try to compensate for it by putting in massive bonus defense so you could POSSIBLY dodge, and MAYBE survive, but then people were suddenly surviving too much, and that resulted in this ludicrous amount of accuracy put in (accx3 weapons. I mean really?), and then passive crth and crtd was put in (rom BOffs), which then turned the game into this massive DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA war.
Starship maneuvers and Starships targetting systems do balance each other out (if you have one, you can counter the other and vice versa), but what can you do when faced with this opposing captain who has the accurate trait, and accx3 weapons? Well ok, so they will guarantee hit you, but they will lose out on some crth chance and some crtd due to only having accuracy on their side. You are somewhat ok to survive. But oh wait, they have a borg console, tachykinetic converter, and a zero point. Ok, so they have somewhat boosted crtd and crth. You still have a decent chance of survival. Except they also have 5 rommie BOffs with Superior Romulan Operative. *TABLE FLIP!* You're boned.
I think that is where things went horribly wrong. Spike and sustained used to be separated by this HUGE margin. But now, with all the bonus crth and crtd chance you have available, the numbers are so much closer together than they used to be. Slamming someone for 40k damage in less than two seconds used to be something only a spike build could do. But now my Scimitar can do that with ease, running only mk XI blue equipment and an only halfway decent BOff and skill layout. How? Because the accx2 mods on my DHCs, the Assimilated Module, the Zero Point Energy Conduit, and the 5 romulan BOffs with Superior Romulan Operative. My crit chance (passively, before skills and equipment applied) is already 12.5%. Add in my Energy Weapons Specialist, that goes up to 15%. Add in the Precision Passive, that goes up to 18%. Add in the Zero point and Assimilated Module, that goes up to 20.74%. So statistically I have a 1/5 chance for each shot to be a crit (without even bringing acc bleedover into account). Add in that crits affect your entire salvo, and that's for ALL of my weapons... yeah it's easy to see how one can sustain 10-20k dps pretty easily.
And of course with that 40k in under 2 second possibly being sustainable (depending on the RNG), your spike damage potential... well you can imagine. I mean, I see dps spikes of up to 100k in PvE. So taking in changes for PvP, and player capabilities and brain (yes, that hunk of grey matter matters), I would guestimate that it would translate into about half that for PvP. When faced with that level of destructive capability, it's no wonder you see people being practically insta-popped. And now, after having shown my complete and utter ignorance, I will finish by saying that I agree with Thissler, the entire system could use an overhaul, if not at least a lookover.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
It has nothing to do with being king or not being king.
DPS is a thing, it actually does exist as a simple measurement of how much damage you put out over a given number of seconds.
The number of seconds could be "2", which some people want to call spike.
The number of seconds could be "300", which is probably a meter of damage only relevant to PvE and completing X content in Y amount of time.
It doesn't matter how much one person wants to rail against specific terms because they have pet peeves, those terms still define specific things.
These aren't mutually exclusive terms from damage applied/damage landed or "effective" damage (i.e. the stuff that isn't just beating against shields or inflating the scoreboard from TS + Transphasics, TBR or BFAW).
It has nothing to do with being king or not being king.
DPS is a thing, it actually does exist as a simple measurement of how much damage you put out over a given number of seconds.
The number of seconds could be "2", which some people want to call spike.
The number of seconds could be "300", which is probably a meter of damage only relevant to PvE and completing X content in Y amount of time.
It doesn't matter how much one person wants to rail against specific terms because they have pet peeves, those terms still define specific things.
These aren't mutually exclusive terms from damage applied/damage landed or "effective" damage (i.e. the stuff that isn't just beating against shields or inflating the scoreboard from TS + Transphasics, TBR or BFAW).
I'm going to be a wee bit contrary here and insist that "damage-per-second" actually means amount of damage per one second. What you're talking about, and what most people mean when they say DPS, is "average damage-per-second". And it's still measured by the second. You're just averaging it out over some subjective time frame to show what kind of damage most people should dish out with the exact same setup against the average opponent.
Now if everyone would like to agree how many samples we need before the average is reliably accurate, we can move along. But it's not really all that relevant except for the Devs who have real numbers to try to crunch. What matters to most players is whether you're able to do enough damage to overwhelm defenses.
What Thissler is saying, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, is that prior to the addition of extra ACC normal STO combat was either
A) The defenses are weak enough to pop easily, or
One-on-one with two evenly matched opponents comes down to luck or somebody making a mistake.
WITH the addition of extra ACC, and piling extra Crit potential on top of that, and the presence of effective CC's available to everybody, option B is no longer a given unless defenses and damage are also increased. Which is what happened, but not in a way that's immediately available to every player.
So now combat in PvP comes down to the haves and the have-nots and if you're one of the have-nots you better hope the guy on the other side is also a have-not. Sure, you can mitigate that through skill and experience and a tactically-challenged person will remain so even if he's one of the haves. But the inequity is there, and you can only fix that inequity with time and/or money.
Did I get it?
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Last I checked, Beam Arrays used to have an accuracy bonus built in. I could be wrong on that. And if I am, then I appologize.
I actually checked over my lunch break - have a set of Phaser Array Mk XI [Dmg]x2 on a character and the hover pop-up made no mention of increased accuracy unlike DHCs which even on white quality will display an increased crit severity as part of the hover pop-up.
I'm sure many remember those old days of facing off against a 5 man cruiser TSI team slugfest.
A little over a year ago, BFAW didn't miss like torpedo spread and there was no immunity for a phaser proc. This meant a team of 5 cruisers could spam FAW and ES and could shut down almost anyone while being almost untouchable.
Then they "fixed" BFAW by making it way inaccurate and totally useless. It wasn't till a few months ago (maybe a little longer) that the true bug was found, that BFAW uses no mods like [acc]. So the second fix that actually worked means that an [acc]x3 beam using BFAW will actually be shooting with [acc]x3 and be using all those accuracy points you put in to the accuracy skill.
So FAW has no acc built into it, but it does use your acc skill and the weapon mod.
I'm going to be a wee bit contrary here and insist that "damage-per-second" actually means amount of damage per one second. What you're talking about, and what most people mean when they say DPS, is "average damage-per-second". And it's still measured by the second. You're just averaging it out over some subjective time frame to show what kind of damage most people should dish out with the exact same setup against the average opponent.
I don't think you're actually being contrary.
In general, it is the amount that is averaged out calculated in seconds but if the entire attack is unsustainable, and lasts only 2s, but did 240k damage, you did 120k DPS, but you only did it over the course of 2s.
Some people call that spike, I'm happy to call it spike as well, but it is some measure of damage that was applied and averaged out over a specific number of seconds.
I generally don't concern myself with it in PvP, but I don't see the point to rail against the term either.
What Thissler is saying, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, is that prior to the addition of extra ACC normal STO combat was either
A) The defenses are weak enough to pop easily, or
One-on-one with two evenly matched opponents comes down to luck or somebody making a mistake.
WITH the addition of extra ACC, and piling extra Crit potential on top of that, and the presence of effective CC's available to everybody, option B is no longer a given unless defenses and damage are also increased. Which is what happened, but not in a way that's immediately available to every player.
There are still, very few sources of extra ACC that have actually been added beyond what we already had before LoR.
IIRC:
The Nukara Particle Converter (+10% ACC to Beams)
The New Conn officer DOFFs that add a chance to increase +ACC on use of Tac Team
The first one is limited to beams, the second is limited by 5 DOFF slots - so you give up to get something.
On the flip side we have Embassy DOFFs that can add up to 3.75% DEF each, Romulan Bridge Officers that can add up to 2.5% DEF each and Reman Bridge Officers that can add over 6% DEF each.
Pre-LoR a fed/kdf healer could load up on embassy boffs for up to +18.75% static bonus defense (static meaning its there even when you are sitting still).
Now, a fully tricked out Reman could potentially up to +35% static bonus defense (although warbirds will have 10 less than escorts IIRC)
So there is an element of haves and have nots, but its been pretty clear since LoR beta that the Rom Faction was going to "have" and all of the Fed and KDF would "have not as much".
In general, it is the amount that is averaged out calculated in seconds but if the entire attack is unsustainable, and lasts only 2s, but did 240k damage, you did 120k DPS, but you only did it over the course of 2s.
Some people call that spike, I'm happy to call it spike as well, but it is some measure of damage that was applied and averaged out over a specific number of seconds.
I generally don't concern myself with it in PvP, but I don't see the point to rail against the term either.
There are still, very few sources of extra ACC that have actually been added beyond what we already had before LoR.
IIRC:
The Nukara Particle Converter (+10% ACC to Beams)
The New Conn officer DOFFs that add a chance to increase +ACC on use of Tac Team
The first one is limited to beams, the second is limited by 5 DOFF slots - so you give up to get something.
On the flip side we have Embassy DOFFs that can add up to 3.75% DEF each, Romulan Bridge Officers that can add up to 2.5% DEF each and Reman Bridge Officers that can add over 6% DEF each.
Pre-LoR a fed/kdf healer could load up on embassy boffs for up to +18.75% static bonus defense (static meaning its there even when you are sitting still).
Now, a fully tricked out Reman could potentially up to +35% static bonus defense (although warbirds will have 10 less than escorts IIRC)
So there is an element of haves and have nots, but its been pretty clear since LoR beta that the Rom Faction was going to "have" and all of the Fed and KDF would "have not as much".
Which trait does the Reman boff have that increases Defence that much besides infiltrator?
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
It has nothing to do with being king or not being king.
DPS is a thing, it actually does exist as a simple measurement of how much damage you put out over a given number of seconds.
The number of seconds could be "2", which some people want to call spike.
The number of seconds could be "300", which is probably a meter of damage only relevant to PvE and completing X content in Y amount of time.
It doesn't matter how much one person wants to rail against specific terms because they have pet peeves, those terms still define specific things.
These aren't mutually exclusive terms from damage applied/damage landed or "effective" damage (i.e. the stuff that isn't just beating against shields or inflating the scoreboard from TS + Transphasics, TBR or BFAW).
I was being a smartass,sort of. It's why I equated dps to speed. Nobody cares who went the fastest in a race just like nobody cares who has the highest dps. It's coming in first and killing. Going fast might accompany first place, or you just put the other guy into the wall. High dps over time might accompany a kill, or you can remove their bonus def and crit their face off.
I was being a smartass,sort of. It's why I equated dps to speed. Nobody cares who went the fastest in a race just like nobody cares who has the highest dps. It's coming in first and killing. Going fast might accompany first place, or you just put the other guy into the wall. High dps over time might accompany a kill, or you can remove their bonus def and crit their face off.
That of course is correct. In PvP matches, it really doesn't matter who did the most damage, who healed the most, blah blah blah. It comes down to which team got the big W.
I have seen PvP matches where one team massively out-healed and out-damaged the other team, but still lost. It just comes down to who can pick up the kills. There was one weak link, and the team with the massive healing and damage didn't support/cover/even care about that weak link, and as such, the other team exploited that weak link and got the kills and won.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
As someone who played closed beta till about 6 months ago, I believe I'll have to /agree with the OP on about 99%. It is so broken that it can't be fixed and the "new/improved" DPS creep out of the C-Store next month (and every month thereafter) will further place PVP gameplay in the dumpster.
The ACC adds were the worst development I've seen in a game since the NGE.
I was being a smartass,sort of. It's why I equated dps to speed. Nobody cares who went the fastest in a race just like nobody cares who has the highest dps. It's coming in first and killing. Going fast might accompany first place, or you just put the other guy into the wall. High dps over time might accompany a kill, or you can remove their bonus def and crit their face off.
Well, I do sometimes sit down and take an estimate of how much (theoretical) output a specific buff stack+available attacks should generate (it's more of a range, really) into a particular time frame and then compare that to some estimated target resistances to try to get an idea of how much brute force kill power any particular build is capable of - I usually do this assuming the target is moving with moderate buffs.
Why?
There have been times I've personally been multi-tractored by good teams and have not been killed, so I never assume the target will have minimal DEF, or that minimal DEF intrinsically translates to a guaranteed kill.
Re: the 100% to-hit, was in Ker'rat again where somebody else ended up doing it - had been dorking around doing my normal stuff in Ker'rat (where I just try to test several things)...and spent time blipping around them with everything normal. Then, bam - the same thing. There wasn't anything different about their buffs, my debuffs, what they were doing, what I was doing - etc, etc, etc.
I flew around them for like 5+ minutes (them and somebody else) - nada - was all good (was actually hoping others would show up for testing of something else). Then after the reset, went in and...bazinga...boom, boom, boom, pop.
The closest thing I can that's different between the two periods (the second was over in the blink of an eye - kind of) was somebody winning a ship during one of those normal ship win periods of time.
Which has left me wondering, if it's tied into the possibly broken RNG that takes place during that period of time...where it's affecting the to-hit as well...
...but that's just massively wild speculation and pretty far out there.
It's just something that's driving me crazy...cause there's a big difference between 51.9% to-hit and 100% to hit.
Re: the 100% to-hit, was in Ker'rat again where somebody else ended up doing it - had been dorking around doing my normal stuff in Ker'rat (where I just try to test several things)...and spent time blipping around them with everything normal. Then, bam - the same thing. There wasn't anything different about their buffs, my debuffs, what they were doing, what I was doing - etc, etc, etc.
I flew around them for like 5+ minutes (them and somebody else) - nada - was all good (was actually hoping others would show up for testing of something else). Then after the reset, went in and...bazinga...boom, boom, boom, pop.
The closest thing I can that's different between the two periods (the second was over in the blink of an eye - kind of) was somebody winning a ship during one of those normal ship win periods of time.
Which has left me wondering, if it's tied into the possibly broken RNG that takes place during that period of time...where it's affecting the to-hit as well...
...but that's just massively wild speculation and pretty far out there.
It's just something that's driving me crazy...cause there's a big difference between 51.9% to-hit and 100% to hit.
When you say 100% chance to hit...
Was that with 1 attack, 1 specific weapon (DBB for example) or was it with all attacks from various weapons (DBB & DHCs & Turrets)
How many attacks were made with 100% chance to hit?
What specific weapon(s) was/were the attack(s) made with?
Was that with 1 attack, 1 specific weapon (DBB for example) or was it with all attacks from various weapons (DBB & DHCs & Turrets)
How many attacks were made with 100% chance to hit?
What specific weapon(s) was/were the attack(s) made with?
DEM, FAW, 6-7 Beams...15-20+ hits. I was healing in the process.
The last one was with Elachi Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x3. They have Accurate, 9 Targeting, Nukara Console, etc, etc, etc. Don't believe they 3stacked the +Acc DOFF.
But again, spent over 5 minutes flying around them with the normal hit/miss. After the restart, it was bazinga - boom.
Which is pretty much how it has occurred in the past when I've brought this up.
I have seen it with DHCs/Turrets - but that's extremely rare (I'm normally not going to be blipping in the forward arc like that).
I've done things where I've dropped Photonic/Nimbus out - cause in one thread (might have been this one), was a case of wondering if FAW vs. the pets resulted in a better to-hit rate. But that wasn't the case.
I've wondered if it's a case that while blipping, that the +Def is lost - but then it would be an all the time thing and not just sporadic. I've turned, I've flown straight. I've not cleared Tac debuffs, I've cleared Tac debuffs. I've not cleared PDoTs, I've cleared PDoTs. I've left Singularity Charge build high, I've cleared it as soon as possible.
It's like I said to the person I asked about it in Ker'rat, it's not an accusation in the least - I made that clear to them - it's just me flying around and trying to figure out what's going on with it (and well, a couple of other things - otherwise Ker'rat is pretty much eating away at time I could be spending on various grinds).
I'm trying to find...er...what that's in reply to in this thread.
its not like i quoted anyone. the point is 1 of the 2 stats this thread ia about is now blown out of the water on warbirds. its pretty hard to hit one on the move with less then acc 3 weapons
Comments
My thoughts exactly.
I totally forgive thissler for having a bad attitude writing this OP. By the time I got to the meat of the post I was crying into my scotch.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
way too much damage in this game.
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Everybody calm down, DPS is still king. In the way that MPH(KPH) is king in NASCAR (Formula 1). How do you win the race? Going fast. See, DPS is all that matters just like going fast is all that matters to race car drivers.
Wait, what? You're telling me that the person in the car that has a top speed of 212 mph doesn't automatically beat the guy in the car that only goes 210?
Ah, the winner has to actually get in front of the other guy. Like, put the back end of his car ahead of the front end of the other guy's car. But that's not speed, exactly, that lets him do it. Since there's no term to actually describe it available in human thinking I'm going to invent one and call it distance per second per second. What? Somebody already named that "acceleration"? Why wasn't I told?
So my lovelies, the next time somebody asks you what your dps is, you can call them a noob and tell them that you're more interested in d/s^2.
Continuing in my quest to prove to thissler that I don't get it, let's stick with my race car analogy. Acc is your ability to keep your foot on the gas. Def is the weaving about the other guy does. A Def failure lets you pass, and if Acc beats Def by enough you get to clip him as you go by and put him into the wall as a bonus. A tractor beam destroys his Def so you can floor it on the straightaway.
Now, you've beaten Def, you've got your lane for passing (your shots are landing). You're going 2mph faster than he is. Nothing can stop you now, because you are faster. Except that as you pass him he turns his head and you realize that the driver of the other car is Bugs Bunny. He winks at you and activates his resistance buffs. Suddenly the front of his car is farther away, in fact his car is the size of a limo. But that's ok, you're still going faster, you'll get there eventually. But you won't, because now his car stretches halfway around the track and you have to take your foot off the gas for a turn.
As you resume your place behind Bugs you notice Thissler the Roadrunner is still at the starting line casually pecking away at some birdseed. Thissler hasn't mattered because he never started the race. When the green flag waived he just stood there with the birdseed. But now, Bugs is a quarter lap from the finish line of this non-nonsensical one-lap race. There's a puff of smoke where Thissler used to be and suddenly they're waiving the checkered flag. How could he win? Everybody was going faster than he was the whole time. Except for the tiny moment where he accelerated all at once. Bugs had no chance to make the front of his car farther away. In fact, he accelerated so fast it looked like cheating. It looked like nothing at all, really, because most people couldn't understand how it happened.
For the record, OP, if you know I "didn't get it then, don't get it now, and won't get it after reading this", why did you make the title so catchy?
What built in accuracy component?
And now, like chlam, I am going to prove that I have no idea what Thissler was actually trying to say. By shooting my mouth off, right here, right now.
I mean think about it. People exterminating others in 1v1s in less than a second? I don't think that was ever intended. But it's here now. And the devs did try to compensate for it by putting in massive bonus defense so you could POSSIBLY dodge, and MAYBE survive, but then people were suddenly surviving too much, and that resulted in this ludicrous amount of accuracy put in (accx3 weapons. I mean really?), and then passive crth and crtd was put in (rom BOffs), which then turned the game into this massive DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA war.
Starship maneuvers and Starships targetting systems do balance each other out (if you have one, you can counter the other and vice versa), but what can you do when faced with this opposing captain who has the accurate trait, and accx3 weapons? Well ok, so they will guarantee hit you, but they will lose out on some crth chance and some crtd due to only having accuracy on their side. You are somewhat ok to survive. But oh wait, they have a borg console, tachykinetic converter, and a zero point. Ok, so they have somewhat boosted crtd and crth. You still have a decent chance of survival. Except they also have 5 rommie BOffs with Superior Romulan Operative. *TABLE FLIP!* You're boned.
I think that is where things went horribly wrong. Spike and sustained used to be separated by this HUGE margin. But now, with all the bonus crth and crtd chance you have available, the numbers are so much closer together than they used to be. Slamming someone for 40k damage in less than two seconds used to be something only a spike build could do. But now my Scimitar can do that with ease, running only mk XI blue equipment and an only halfway decent BOff and skill layout. How? Because the accx2 mods on my DHCs, the Assimilated Module, the Zero Point Energy Conduit, and the 5 romulan BOffs with Superior Romulan Operative. My crit chance (passively, before skills and equipment applied) is already 12.5%. Add in my Energy Weapons Specialist, that goes up to 15%. Add in the Precision Passive, that goes up to 18%. Add in the Zero point and Assimilated Module, that goes up to 20.74%. So statistically I have a 1/5 chance for each shot to be a crit (without even bringing acc bleedover into account). Add in that crits affect your entire salvo, and that's for ALL of my weapons... yeah it's easy to see how one can sustain 10-20k dps pretty easily.
And of course with that 40k in under 2 second possibly being sustainable (depending on the RNG), your spike damage potential... well you can imagine. I mean, I see dps spikes of up to 100k in PvE. So taking in changes for PvP, and player capabilities and brain (yes, that hunk of grey matter matters), I would guestimate that it would translate into about half that for PvP. When faced with that level of destructive capability, it's no wonder you see people being practically insta-popped. And now, after having shown my complete and utter ignorance, I will finish by saying that I agree with Thissler, the entire system could use an overhaul, if not at least a lookover.
It has nothing to do with being king or not being king.
DPS is a thing, it actually does exist as a simple measurement of how much damage you put out over a given number of seconds.
The number of seconds could be "2", which some people want to call spike.
The number of seconds could be "300", which is probably a meter of damage only relevant to PvE and completing X content in Y amount of time.
It doesn't matter how much one person wants to rail against specific terms because they have pet peeves, those terms still define specific things.
These aren't mutually exclusive terms from damage applied/damage landed or "effective" damage (i.e. the stuff that isn't just beating against shields or inflating the scoreboard from TS + Transphasics, TBR or BFAW).
In other news, balance discussions in the PvE sections can be detrimental to you psychological well-being. I wouldn't recommend them.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Last I checked, Beam Arrays used to have an accuracy bonus built in. I could be wrong on that. And if I am, then I appologize.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I'm going to be a wee bit contrary here and insist that "damage-per-second" actually means amount of damage per one second. What you're talking about, and what most people mean when they say DPS, is "average damage-per-second". And it's still measured by the second. You're just averaging it out over some subjective time frame to show what kind of damage most people should dish out with the exact same setup against the average opponent.
Now if everyone would like to agree how many samples we need before the average is reliably accurate, we can move along. But it's not really all that relevant except for the Devs who have real numbers to try to crunch. What matters to most players is whether you're able to do enough damage to overwhelm defenses.
What Thissler is saying, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, is that prior to the addition of extra ACC normal STO combat was either
A) The defenses are weak enough to pop easily, or
WITH the addition of extra ACC, and piling extra Crit potential on top of that, and the presence of effective CC's available to everybody, option B is no longer a given unless defenses and damage are also increased. Which is what happened, but not in a way that's immediately available to every player.
So now combat in PvP comes down to the haves and the have-nots and if you're one of the have-nots you better hope the guy on the other side is also a have-not. Sure, you can mitigate that through skill and experience and a tactically-challenged person will remain so even if he's one of the haves. But the inequity is there, and you can only fix that inequity with time and/or money.
Did I get it?
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I actually checked over my lunch break - have a set of Phaser Array Mk XI [Dmg]x2 on a character and the hover pop-up made no mention of increased accuracy unlike DHCs which even on white quality will display an increased crit severity as part of the hover pop-up.
A little over a year ago, BFAW didn't miss like torpedo spread and there was no immunity for a phaser proc. This meant a team of 5 cruisers could spam FAW and ES and could shut down almost anyone while being almost untouchable.
Then they "fixed" BFAW by making it way inaccurate and totally useless. It wasn't till a few months ago (maybe a little longer) that the true bug was found, that BFAW uses no mods like [acc]. So the second fix that actually worked means that an [acc]x3 beam using BFAW will actually be shooting with [acc]x3 and be using all those accuracy points you put in to the accuracy skill.
So FAW has no acc built into it, but it does use your acc skill and the weapon mod.
I don't think you're actually being contrary.
In general, it is the amount that is averaged out calculated in seconds but if the entire attack is unsustainable, and lasts only 2s, but did 240k damage, you did 120k DPS, but you only did it over the course of 2s.
Some people call that spike, I'm happy to call it spike as well, but it is some measure of damage that was applied and averaged out over a specific number of seconds.
I generally don't concern myself with it in PvP, but I don't see the point to rail against the term either.
There are still, very few sources of extra ACC that have actually been added beyond what we already had before LoR.
IIRC:
The Nukara Particle Converter (+10% ACC to Beams)
The New Conn officer DOFFs that add a chance to increase +ACC on use of Tac Team
The first one is limited to beams, the second is limited by 5 DOFF slots - so you give up to get something.
On the flip side we have Embassy DOFFs that can add up to 3.75% DEF each, Romulan Bridge Officers that can add up to 2.5% DEF each and Reman Bridge Officers that can add over 6% DEF each.
Pre-LoR a fed/kdf healer could load up on embassy boffs for up to +18.75% static bonus defense (static meaning its there even when you are sitting still).
Now, a fully tricked out Reman could potentially up to +35% static bonus defense (although warbirds will have 10 less than escorts IIRC)
So there is an element of haves and have nots, but its been pretty clear since LoR beta that the Rom Faction was going to "have" and all of the Fed and KDF would "have not as much".
Which trait does the Reman boff have that increases Defence that much besides infiltrator?
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Sorry I missed this earlier, well played. :P
Subterfuge, actually I think it comes standard.
Thanks, never really looked into remans
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
I was being a smartass,sort of. It's why I equated dps to speed. Nobody cares who went the fastest in a race just like nobody cares who has the highest dps. It's coming in first and killing. Going fast might accompany first place, or you just put the other guy into the wall. High dps over time might accompany a kill, or you can remove their bonus def and crit their face off.
That of course is correct. In PvP matches, it really doesn't matter who did the most damage, who healed the most, blah blah blah. It comes down to which team got the big W.
I have seen PvP matches where one team massively out-healed and out-damaged the other team, but still lost. It just comes down to who can pick up the kills. There was one weak link, and the team with the massive healing and damage didn't support/cover/even care about that weak link, and as such, the other team exploited that weak link and got the kills and won.
The ACC adds were the worst development I've seen in a game since the NGE.
Well, I do sometimes sit down and take an estimate of how much (theoretical) output a specific buff stack+available attacks should generate (it's more of a range, really) into a particular time frame and then compare that to some estimated target resistances to try to get an idea of how much brute force kill power any particular build is capable of - I usually do this assuming the target is moving with moderate buffs.
Why?
There have been times I've personally been multi-tractored by good teams and have not been killed, so I never assume the target will have minimal DEF, or that minimal DEF intrinsically translates to a guaranteed kill.
I flew around them for like 5+ minutes (them and somebody else) - nada - was all good (was actually hoping others would show up for testing of something else). Then after the reset, went in and...bazinga...boom, boom, boom, pop.
The closest thing I can that's different between the two periods (the second was over in the blink of an eye - kind of) was somebody winning a ship during one of those normal ship win periods of time.
Which has left me wondering, if it's tied into the possibly broken RNG that takes place during that period of time...where it's affecting the to-hit as well...
...but that's just massively wild speculation and pretty far out there.
It's just something that's driving me crazy...cause there's a big difference between 51.9% to-hit and 100% to hit.
When you say 100% chance to hit...
Was that with 1 attack, 1 specific weapon (DBB for example) or was it with all attacks from various weapons (DBB & DHCs & Turrets)
How many attacks were made with 100% chance to hit?
What specific weapon(s) was/were the attack(s) made with?
DEM, FAW, 6-7 Beams...15-20+ hits. I was healing in the process.
The last one was with Elachi Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x3. They have Accurate, 9 Targeting, Nukara Console, etc, etc, etc. Don't believe they 3stacked the +Acc DOFF.
But again, spent over 5 minutes flying around them with the normal hit/miss. After the restart, it was bazinga - boom.
Which is pretty much how it has occurred in the past when I've brought this up.
I have seen it with DHCs/Turrets - but that's extremely rare (I'm normally not going to be blipping in the forward arc like that).
I've done things where I've dropped Photonic/Nimbus out - cause in one thread (might have been this one), was a case of wondering if FAW vs. the pets resulted in a better to-hit rate. But that wasn't the case.
I've wondered if it's a case that while blipping, that the +Def is lost - but then it would be an all the time thing and not just sporadic. I've turned, I've flown straight. I've not cleared Tac debuffs, I've cleared Tac debuffs. I've not cleared PDoTs, I've cleared PDoTs. I've left Singularity Charge build high, I've cleared it as soon as possible.
It's like I said to the person I asked about it in Ker'rat, it's not an accusation in the least - I made that clear to them - it's just me flying around and trying to figure out what's going on with it (and well, a couple of other things - otherwise Ker'rat is pretty much eating away at time I could be spending on various grinds).
I'm trying to find...er...what that's in reply to in this thread.
Good luck.
its not like i quoted anyone. the point is 1 of the 2 stats this thread ia about is now blown out of the water on warbirds. its pretty hard to hit one on the move with less then acc 3 weapons