In PvP yeah. But what gets Nerfed there gets Nerfed in PvE..... and thats BS.
Why would you ever use BO in PvE though? You don't need that level of burst, and the damage that a single BO does is surpassed roughly halfway through a BFAW of the same level. As smokey said, one BO3 hit from ONE BA followed by the rest of the BAs firing at reduced power will usually only equal about 8k damage. A full BFAW3 will deal easily that and more.
Changing BO will hardly affect PvE at all. And any PvE changes don't really matter... because... PvE is a faceroll. I can do PvE using just two abilities and never die. Tactical Team 1, EPtS1. Throw in the occasional HE and Aux2SIF, and you don't die. Period.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
In light of this long-standing issue & controversy surrounding double/triple BO, which of the following options do you feel would be the most sensible change & why?
1) After a Beam Overload is fired, all weapons are automatically disabled for 5 seconds (original design of STO at the very beginning)
2) Beam Overload can no longer be activated while cloaked (just like many other powers), whereas cloaking will remove an existing BO buff that hasn't fired yet
3) Once a Beam Overload buff is activated, a 2nd copy cannot be activated until the first copy is fired, similar to how different copies of Subsystem Targeting cannot be stacked on top of each other until the first one is fired or expired
4) After a Beam Overload is fired, all energy weapons are automatically disabled for 5 seconds
5) After a Beam Overload is fired, all beam energy weapons are automatically disabled for 5 seconds
6) Beam Overload has an internal CD such that no more than 1 copy can be fired within every 5 seconds cycle
Let's provide some constructive feedback for the Devs to review. Comments are welcome.
Option 3 is the only workable option.
90% of my builds rely on 2x dual heavies 1x torp 1x Dual beam bank. I've spent a lot time, in game currency, real life currency perfecting these builds. Remove the ability to stack Beam Overload and that is that, a fix that makes everyone happy (never was a fan).
A beam overload alpha, followed by cannon rapid fire/ Torp HY will make my Klingon BoP's obsolete and useless if the developers go with option 1.
I think this issue is quite a bit more complex than just a bug fix, which is why the devs are taking their time. There just isn't an easy solution or quick fix as can be seen in many of the comments here.
Ideally, I prefer to see Beam Overload damage based on the number of beams on the ship and cannot be fired back to back. But I am afraid this change would be too complex.
Realistically, I think BO should have an internal CD, which doesn't allow it be fired more than once within a 5 seconds period.
BO Stacking takes alot of in game currency time effort and of course the ship itself has to give up a lot of other boff spots to fit it in so take that into mind when swinging the nerf hammer
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
BO Stacking takes alot of in game currency time effort and of course the ship itself has to give up a lot of other boff spots to fit it in so take that into mind when swinging the nerf hammer
With respect, every niche build is very expensive.
Ship + Tact Consoles + Sci Consoles + 5 space doff = 125 mil + 40 mil + 100 mil + 90 mil = 355 million ec, not including the cost of weapons, uni consoles and devices.
I am sure there are other examples. As a comparison, the BoP's double tap build is nothing compared to the cost of a Federation Pure Science build. The most expensive item being Marion at about 20 mil, that's nothing. Yet, the double tap exploit has resulted in one-shot of big cruisers and is constantly being abused in game, which makes no sense whatsoever. This exploit needs to be fixed. The balance needs to be taken in moderation to be sure however the "cost" is not one of the valid reasons.
I am sure there are other examples. As a comparison, the BoP's double tap build is nothing compared to the cost of a Federation Pure Science build. The most expensive item being Marion at about 20 mil, that's nothing. Yet, the double tap exploit has resulted in one-shot of big cruisers and is constantly being abused in game, which makes no sense whatsoever. This exploit needs to be fixed. The balance needs to be taken in moderation to be sure however the "cost" is not one of the valid reasons.
Its not the bop abusing this so much, its the T'Varos and other warbirds, and a lot more of them are fedroms then kdf.
Most bop don't even use marion as its like 70 mil for kdf if you can even find it, we are using setups similar to what Drizzt just said, 1dbb, 2dhc, and 1 torp and relying on precise timing, watching the buff cycle and instantly tractoring and firing on decloak. The only thing close to double tapping you can do with that setup is using tac initiatve after activating bo and hy then waiting for it to get near the end of that timer so they can be fired quickly again, but still not as fast as a 2dbb setup most tvaros are using with marion.
Bop only has 4 boffs, and only tac boffs can buff crit chance unlike all boffs for romulans. so bop has to run 2 tac boffs, that leaves not much room for sci and eng for your heals and cc, so hard to fit dem on it unless you use the lt cmdr uni as eng then you will be short on something like an eptx, sci heal or tractor beam, and the way bop are outnumbered in kerrat you need those also.
On a Tvaro however it gets 5 boffs, and 2 are cmdr and ensign tac, just enough to do alphas with, allowing the lt cmdr uni to be used as eng, making it much easier to fit dem in and not be short on heals or crit rate, thats why these are abusing this tactic with marion and 2dbb much more. Its a easy mode alpha that doesn't require as much skill and timing as a bop alpha without using marion.
Its not bo that is the problem or bop, its marion, and romulans with op ships and boffs.
Hahahaha Bop are the exploiters of double tap BO's?!? Propoganda horse TRIBBLE!!
The double tap is an old design I first saw over a year and a half ago designed on the Defiant w/cloak. The only reason it never saw mass use was the insane level of precision needed to wield it correctly.
The KDF BoP pilot are not even close to being the BO boogeyman in this game. Grethors furnaces, only a handful of BoP pilots even have the skills needed to decloak strike properly much less achieve the grand claims found in this subject matter.
If our fragile BoPs could so easily achieve Double tapping the aether of Ker'rat space would be awash in fed blood and the forums would be filled with ******** of how unsafe it was to be a fed within it.
Its sad to see the 5 day bleed hissy fit that PvP has become every time someone thinks up a good build concept that outs the old concept that the playerbase has become acustomed too.
Makes the game truelly unpleasing and unworth the effort.
In some ways I agree with the above, I've certainly not seen many BoPs in kerrat even bother with double tapping. I have seen warbirds, specifically Fed tvaro's doing it with a dedicated healer to make sure they don't get squashed on the run up.
The problem is a combination of all the things that make it what it is. If the devs do not intend for people to spike that much then space out the time between each BO by option 3. One other alternative might be to exclude beam overload from being covered by marion, don't like it well tough, now you know what non escort classes feel like in PvE.
I am merely tired of seeing numerous threads of " XXXX is broken, OP, noobish, unmanly, nwomanly, frowned upon by God, a sign of end of PvP, etc..." everytime somebody or anybody comes up with a good idea for a build or a use of a power coupled with other factors to maximum benefit in PvP.
A broken power or combination for effect that is legitamely not working as intended is one thing, but every new idea that comes down the creative pipe is not a mistake or a sign of exploitation. It gets old to see threads like "A2B and Bfaw is an exploit" or " BO stacking is unfair" or any thread that claims its exploitive to think outside the box and use new ways to achieve a desieed effect.
Not to mention it confuses us whom wish to enjoy PvP but can not because the court of public opinion is constantly crying foul over the slightest thing.
Fix what IS broken, not what is not.
I am merely tired of seeing numerous threads of " XXXX is broken, OP, noobish, unmanly, nwomanly, frowned upon by God, a sign of end of PvP, etc..." everytime somebody or anybody comes up with a good idea for a build or a use of a power coupled with other factors to maximum benefit in PvP.
A broken power or combination for effect that is legitamely not working as intended is one thing, but every new idea that comes down the creative pipe is not a mistake or a sign of exploitation. It gets old to see threads like "A2B and Bfaw is an exploit" or " BO stacking is unfair" or any thread that claims its exploitive to think outside the box and use new ways to achieve a desieed effect.
Not to mention it confuses us whom wish to enjoy PvP but can not because the court of public opinion is constantly crying foul over the slightest thing.
Fix what IS broken, not what is not.
Indeed. There's a big difference between simply making a new build idea, or also just simply adapting to the meta, which really, is what this shift of 'double tap BO builds' has come from.
Defensive power creep has majorly increased the survivability rate of all ships by a considerable factor, as such, the meta-game has changed to focus on delivering as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.
Or in other words: This usage of people going to BO builds IS people adapting. It isn't really a FOTM anymore, it's meta-game now.
Plus, to say that 'evil BoPs' are the cause of it is silly at best.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The funniest part is how easy it is to survive a BO double tap. Why is that never brought into the light? It's powerful, but requires careful timing and placement to do properly. I see more of those fail than I do succeed.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
It seems that the BO stacking has a fix coming to Tribble with a further fix to all weapon buffing Tac Boff abilities to boot.
Unless I am confused ( and it is possible) Tac Boff abilities like CRF and HYT plus others that buff damage will no longer be stackable due to a 5 second waiting period between the use of one and before the prepping of the second.
Wonder how this will affect Tac Boff use on any vessel?
Does this fix ruin A2B builds and thus weaken cruisers again?
How does it affect the cycling of the indirect damage buffing powers like ApO?
Should the career Boff buffing abilities of other classes be similiarly fixed to keep stacking to a minimum?
Should players even bother with PvP anymore since any good or creative use of the ability choices that kills another player in STO is always nerfed because some players refuse to accept the fact they are not invincible and can die as easily as the next player to a better foe?
It seems that the BO stacking has a fix coming to Tribble with a further fix to all weapon buffing Tac Boff abilities to boot.
Unless I am confused ( and it is possible) Tac Boff abilities like CRF and HYT plus others that buff damage will no longer be stackable due to a 5 second waiting period between the use of one and before the prepping of the second.
Wonder how this will affect Tac Boff use on any vessel?
Does this fix ruin A2B builds and thus weaken cruisers again?
How does it affect the cycling of the indirect damage buffing powers like ApO?
Should the career Boff buffing abilities of other classes be similiarly fixed to keep stacking to a minimum?
Should players even bother with PvP anymore since any good or creative use of the ability choices that kills another player in STO is always nerfed because some players refuse to accept the fact they are not invincible and can die as easily as the next player to a better foe?
I doubt it will affect the tac boff use on most non escorts as we just don't have the number of tactical positions. CRF and CSV will be unaffected AFAIK as it has a 15s duration from activation.
Doubt it will affect A2B cruisers for the most part.
Might nerf APD/APO back to back, might not, I don't think it will as I think it's more to stop same ability stacking as in APO with APO straight after which cannot be done so it won't affect APO.
Should stacking be kept to a minimum, I dunno, it's great when teamwork happens like a sci uses sensor scan on enemies in a GW and a CPB3 to soften shields as a tactical swoops (yes, swooping is bad.) in with APA on, CSV and a torp spread and all is decimated. That's good stacking.
Super stacking of class specific buffs so that one skill suddenly gets blown completely out of proportions...not so big a fan. It leads to nerfs and others that are not that class suffering. It's usually a tactical but it could happen with engineers and how unkillable they can be or sci....nah that last one will never happen.
As for dying to better foes. Well I casual PvP. Do I come crying on here when I get my TRIBBLE handed to me from ganking Klingons using 200 different abilities on me and elite interceptors to weaken me and I die? Not really. I haven't really invested in it and I'm just happy if I can stop 2 of them ganging up on me.
Do I complain about how my science abilities in PvE have no teeth due to the insanely high shields/hull compared to players in PvP and other things? You betcha but I don't complain about someone beating me in PvP because they put more time and effort into their build.
As with all of it we'll just have to check it on tribble. I will be testing the PvE aspect of it but here's a curious thing. In that entire post about double tapping only once was PvE brought up and it was immediately dismissed as inconsequential and that that person could do PvE with only 2 abilities.
I do dislike how no-one thinks or seems to care about the impact it has on PvE for both the high end of the spectrum and the medium and low. As I said to Iskandus, we should not balance the game for PvP at the cost of the PvE majority.
I simply think we should stop nerfing the Game because a player dies in PvP and does not like it, can't accept it and runs to the forums and rants until nerfs happen. It has become a very ugly tradition in STO that has replaced hard work.
What one can not adapt too must be nerfed is not how one balances a game.
But then it draws the fine line between where a tactic/abilities/stacking is part of the game and meant to be strong but counterable and where something is an unfair advantage that either few have or cannot be countered.
It depends if there is no counter or whether they are too bone idle to counter it. Either way I doubt this BO change will affect PvE at all as most players can't/don't use it.
I simply think we should stop nerfing the Game because a player dies in PvP and does not like it, can't accept it and runs to the forums and rants until nerfs happen. It has become a very ugly tradition in STO that has replaced hard work.
What one can not adapt too must be nerfed is not how one balances a game.
Look at Black Ops, they started with one Nerf, the AK74U, then procedded to nerf EVERYTHING as it was better and everyone was using it until it was the 74u back at the top with less damage than it originally had.....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As with all of it we'll just have to check it on tribble. I will be testing the PvE aspect of it but here's a curious thing. In that entire post about double tapping only once was PvE brought up and it was immediately dismissed as inconsequential and that that person could do PvE with only 2 abilities.
I do dislike how no-one thinks or seems to care about the impact it has on PvE for both the high end of the spectrum and the medium and low. As I said to Iskandus, we should not balance the game for PvP at the cost of the PvE majority.
Couple things I'd like to say, Bpharma:
1. I'm in the same boat as some others are: PvE just isn't that difficult. I wouldn't go so far as to say you only need two abilities, but it is easy. And anything that was difficult is getting easier.
PvE doesn't challenge people, doesn't make them work. Those that do PvE and significantly work on their builds are a rarity. Most don't bother, or just use a cookie-cutter build. Yes, exceptions to every rule, I know.
2. Anytime a nerf happens, in terms of combat stuff, most people are not willing to 'put up or shut up'. Or in other words, most just don't want to actually provide evidence for why something shouldn't be nerfed or altered. Like the SIC console, most people simply got behind the nice, 'safe' banner of "PvPers are evil, they want to nerf everything", and that was that for them.
No real arguments aside from mostly complaints, no videos, no proof, no evidence. No tests were done to show ANYTHING for why it shouldn't be nerfed.
I'm pretty confident that if people were actually willing to put up some testing results and evidence, things might go a bit better.
You say there's the PvE majority, which I agree with, but that majority isn't willing to do all that much most of the time. If they did put something forward more, that 'majority weight' might actually apply more often.
And to make true by my own words, here's an example:
Item X is under review for a potential nerf.
PvPers have tested it considerably, with videos and tests, etc.
PvEers just see it as another nerf of something.
A PvEer says, "PvPers don't ever want to adapt to anything new. All they want is to nerf everything so they don't have to!"
A PvPer might come in and say, "Ok, then how do you counter X?"
My question to ask is: When that situation occurs (and it has plenty and will happen plenty in the future), how often does the PvEer answer and actually offer anything to that PvPer as any kind of proof as to how to counter it. Most of the time I see that the PvEer person simply ignores it.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
1. I'm in the same boat as some others are: PvE just isn't that difficult. I wouldn't go so far as to say you only need two abilities, but it is easy. And anything that was difficult is getting easier.
PvE doesn't challenge people, doesn't make them work. Those that do PvE and significantly work on their builds are a rarity. Most don't bother, or just use a cookie-cutter build. Yes, exceptions to every rule, I know.
2. Anytime a nerf happens, in terms of combat stuff, most people are not willing to 'put up or shut up'. Or in other words, most just don't want to actually provide evidence for why something shouldn't be nerfed or altered. Like the SIC console, most people simply got behind the nice, 'safe' banner of "PvPers are evil, they want to nerf everything", and that was that for them.
No real arguments aside from mostly complaints, no videos, no proof, no evidence. No tests were done to show ANYTHING for why it shouldn't be nerfed.
I'm pretty confident that if people were actually willing to put up some testing results and evidence, things might go a bit better.
You say there's the PvE majority, which I agree with, but that majority isn't willing to do all that much most of the time. If they did put something forward more, that 'majority weight' might actually apply more often.
And to make true by my own words, here's an example:
Item X is under review for a potential nerf.
PvPers have tested it considerably, with videos and tests, etc.
PvEers just see it as another nerf of something.
A PvEer says, "PvPers don't ever want to adapt to anything new. All they want is to nerf everything so they don't have to!"
A PvPer might come in and say, "Ok, then how do you counter X?"
My question to ask is: When that situation occurs (and it has plenty and will happen plenty in the future), how often does the PvEer answer and actually offer anything to that PvPer as any kind of proof as to how to counter it. Most of the time I see that the PvEer person simply ignores it.
As a primary PvE'er, i would gladly accept all nerfs if Optional timers where extended.
This is the example ill go with, The hive, (Nerfed or unNerfed) It is really difficult to take out 6 1Mil HP Tac cubes and all those little EPtE Spheres in the time given.
Instead of Nerfs why not put in Counters?
So instead of making people angry and appeasing others find a way to appease more people(clearly not everyone as not everyone is ever happy)
Now i do PvEvP (Ker'rat) and i think the damage boost from Battle Cloak should be dropped to +5 All damage.
My reasoning is the Near Constant Alpha strikes these guys keep doing. (Experience from the times ive been in there)
Now im not saying all romulans and klingons are evil PvP'ers, but when ive got three of them slapping me around and i cant hit anyone because they are in and out of cloak so fast.
Or increase the CD in between cloaks. So at least you have more than a few seconds to do something.
I know the Wiki states its 20s but i just dont see it, as i ve seen people in and out (would love to have video proof but sadly i dont have that ability)
Maybe its just me. Who knows.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I can confirm there seem to be some romulans who can decloak; fire their strike; and recloak within 1 - 2 seconds.
Kinda of curious as to how they do that; if it is something you can do using skills; BOFF;s and DOFF's; hey good in them for finding the way.
If they are exploiting some "broken" ability; then shame on them.
I am not saying people who can do this are evil; but there is a difference between finding a buildf that can do this; and using a exploit/
Same with the Dual Beam overload stacking; I am kinda of on the fence about this; I have seen it myself with my cruiser being double BO overloaded (so far have survived each time).
We have to be careful with this; if we are going to "nerf" the ability to do double BO; cryptic have to find a way to do it without affecting the other BOFF abilities or tactical abilities.
As a primary PvE'er, i would gladly accept all nerfs if Optional timers where extended. This is the example ill go with, The hive, (Nerfed or unNerfed) It is really difficult to take out 6 1Mil HP Tac cubes and all those little EPtE Spheres in the time given.
Instead of Nerfs why not put in Counters? So instead of making people angry and appeasing others find a way to appease more people(clearly not everyone as not everyone is ever happy)
Now i do PvEvP (Ker'rat) and i think the damage boost from Battle Cloak should be dropped to +5 All damage. My reasoning is the Near Constant Alpha strikes these guys keep doing. (Experience from the times ive been in there)
Now im not saying all romulans and klingons are evil PvP'ers, but when ive got three of them slapping me around and i cant hit anyone because they are in and out of cloak so fast.
Or increase the CD in between cloaks. So at least you have more than a few seconds to do something. I know the Wiki states its 20s but i just dont see it, as i ve seen people in and out (would love to have video proof but sadly i dont have that ability) Maybe its just me. Who knows.
I admit, a bit longer on the timer for the first part of Hive would be nice. Anyways, thing is, most nerfs really don't affect PvE most of the time, at least not as much as people think. I mean, it can be nice to have other things to hold enemies down or whatever, but the PvE content itself just simply has NOT changed. The Borg are still the Borg, the Tholians are still the Tholians, they don't change, there's nothing new or challenging.
Counters are nice, and I agree, but you can only counter so much. People can cleanse/counter Graviton Pulse with engineering team, but if someone on another team is spamming it, they KNOW that, and they will force you to spend all those counters.
Nerfing cloaks won't change anything. Romulans have flipped the game, PvP-wise at the very least, on it's side. Even if you nerfed cloaks, Romulan BOFFs are what really throw everything out of whack.
Back when season 7 first hit, and they added in the Embassy, Romulan BOFFs weren't bad. You could get some nice traits, but it was limited.
Romulan toons however, can get a full bridge crew of 5 of them with TWO space traits, including one of them being Superior level most of the time.
You are right, 20 seconds is the base for cloaking. With Embassy BOFFs, a Fed/KDF can get their cloak CD to about 15 seconds. A nice reduction, but nothing OTT. Along with a nice boost to Def, CrtH, CrtD, etc.
A Romulan can easily get that to 10 seconds. Not to mention have a LOT more base CrtH/CrtD due to double space traits, have that bonus def, much longer Ambush buff duration and a much stronger Ambush buff compared to Feds or KDF. It's so long, the Ambush buff lasts LONGER than their cooldown for their cloak itself, hence why you might see the 'cloak flicker' as people just quickly cloak and de-cloak to re-fill the Ambush buff.
Though Romulans do essentially have a permanent almost-APA running with all their bonus crit and Ambush bonuses. Heck, then make it a Romulan tac for actual tac captain bonuses.
That doesn't really pertain to the topic at hand however.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I admit, a bit longer on the timer for the first part of Hive would be nice. Anyways, thing is, most nerfs really don't affect PvE most of the time, at least not as much as people think. I mean, it can be nice to have other things to hold enemies down or whatever, but the PvE content itself just simply has NOT changed. The Borg are still the Borg, the Tholians are still the Tholians, they don't change, there's nothing new or challenging.
Counters are nice, and I agree, but you can only counter so much. People can cleanse/counter Graviton Pulse with engineering team, but if someone on another team is spamming it, they KNOW that, and they will force you to spend all those counters.
Nerfing cloaks won't change anything. Romulans have flipped the game, PvP-wise at the very least, on it's side. Even if you nerfed cloaks, Romulan BOFFs are what really throw everything out of whack.
Back when season 7 first hit, and they added in the Embassy, Romulan BOFFs weren't bad. You could get some nice traits, but it was limited.
Romulan toons however, can get a full bridge crew of 5 of them with TWO space traits, including one of them being Superior level most of the time.
You are right, 20 seconds is the base for cloaking. With Embassy BOFFs, a Fed/KDF can get their cloak CD to about 15 seconds. A nice reduction, but nothing OTT. Along with a nice boost to Def, CrtH, CrtD, etc.
A Romulan can easily get that to 10 seconds. Not to mention have a LOT more base CrtH/CrtD due to double space traits, have that bonus def, much longer Ambush buff duration and a much stronger Ambush buff compared to Feds or KDF. It's so long, the Ambush buff lasts LONGER than their cooldown for their cloak itself, hence why you might see the 'cloak flicker' as people just quickly cloak and de-cloak to re-fill the Ambush buff.
Though Romulans do essentially have a permanent almost-APA running with all their bonus crit and Ambush bonuses. Heck, then make it a Romulan tac for actual tac captain bonuses.
That doesn't really pertain to the topic at hand however.
But thats just the thing, Abuse makes nerfs, not Evil PvP'ers. And you are correct most PvE isn't impacted by Nerfing.
But in a specific case, How will this Nerf affect me and my Dreadnought?
Will i only be able to use either my Lance or my BO? if so thanks for players Abusing things wrecking my ship and making it even more obsolete (without specialized builds)than it already is. UNLESS they unlink BO and the Lance's CD and Interaction.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It seems that the BO stacking has a fix coming to Tribble with a further fix to all weapon buffing Tac Boff abilities to boot.
Unless I am confused ( and it is possible) Tac Boff abilities like CRF and HYT plus others that buff damage will no longer be stackable due to a 5 second waiting period between the use of one and before the prepping of the second.
My understanding is that you will no longer be able to fire two HYTs back-to-back. CRF shouldn't really be affected: CRF has a 15-second shared cooldown and lasts for 10 seconds, so it always had a 5-second gap.
I would of thought a nerf to ambush damage bonus would be a better solution, isn't that what is putting double taps over the edge? This will encourage a return to everyone running cannons again no? At least we are currently seeing some build diversity.
But thats just the thing, Abuse makes nerfs, not Evil PvP'ers. And you are correct most PvE isn't impacted by Nerfing.
But in a specific case, How will this Nerf affect me and my Dreadnought?
Will i only be able to use either my Lance or my BO? if so thanks for players Abusing things wrecking my ship and making it even more obsolete (without specialized builds)than it already is. UNLESS they unlink BO and the Lance's CD and Interaction.
Indeed.
I do not know the answer to your question however. Instead all I can say is, once this change is put on Tribble, if it hasn't been already, go on there, and test it. Find out for yourself, make a post with your results, push for them to not have Lance (and to a lesser extent, other 'super weapons' like the Quantum Phaser off the Vesta) and BO affect each other. Show them your results, let people KNOW, and most likely that will not happen.
The BO changes might still happen, but at least the interactions between BO and 'super weapons' wouldn't be altered.
I would of thought a nerf to ambush damage bonus would be a better solution, isn't that what is putting double taps over the edge? This will encourage a return to everyone running cannons again no? At least we are currently seeing some build diversity.
Ambush damage doesn't affect things as much as you think.
Besides, nerf Ambush, won't change how Romulan BOFFs have changed things so much.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
If abuse is the road to a nerf, not the evil decision of some, then why are these tactics always old news to the some but only abusive when used by the many?
If a tactic was not bad when used by the few whom kept it a rare event why is it suddenly bad when it is adopted by the masses?
There in lies my personal angst on how a tactic is ok if only a handful know it but a teavesty of balance when everyone does it.
We see it with the BO stacking debacle, heard it as an outcry about A2B, and have seen it in the past with APO recently... The one question always pops back into my mind...
Why is it ok when a few discover a tactic and use it for a length of time but suddenly said tactic is evil when it becomes common knowledge?
If abuse is the road to a nerf, not the evil decision of some, then why are these tactics always old news to the some but only abusive when used by the many?
If a tactic was not bad when used by the few whom kept it a rare event why is it suddenly bad when it is adopted by the masses?
There in lies my personal angst on how a tactic is ok if only a handful know it but a teavesty of balance when everyone does it.
We see it with the BO stacking debacle, heard it as an outcry about A2B, and have seen it in the past with APO recently... The one question always pops back into my mind...
Why is it ok when a few discover a tactic and use it for a length of time but suddenly said tactic is evil when it becomes common knowledge?
Well BO-stacking is nothing new, you know that, Roach. Been around forever. Those who were good at it, was because it took them a lot of time and effort to get their skill to that level. Most people didn't want to put in the work, they just expected an 'I win' strategy that apparently had no effort or skill in it, when the exact opposite is true.
Now, it's gotten so popular in today's meta, because of ALL the passive mitigation, healing, etc that has been given to everyone: Fleet shields, rep passives, etc.
BO-stacking got popular due to that stuff. Not saying everyone did it, but it got more widespread. To some it was a problem, and they bitched of course. I never considered it an issue personally. But the meta shifted according to how survivable people have become. Players adapted to that accordingly, but others weren't willing to adapt to counter said BO builds.
It also got more popular due to stuff like the Marion DOFF, and the Omega Weapons Amplifier.
HOWEVER, it was the choice of the devs that they are changing it, they considered BO-stacking (and to another extent: Stacking other weapon buffs, like double Torp spreads for example) an exploit, and that is that in this case. Irregardless of what people think, it is being changed now.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
3) Once a Beam Overload buff is activated, a 2nd copy cannot be activated until the first copy is fired, similar to how different copies of Subsystem Targeting cannot be stacked on top of each other until the first one is fired or expired
6) Beam Overload has an internal CD such that no more than 1 copy can be fired within every 5 seconds cycle
Comments
Why would you ever use BO in PvE though? You don't need that level of burst, and the damage that a single BO does is surpassed roughly halfway through a BFAW of the same level. As smokey said, one BO3 hit from ONE BA followed by the rest of the BAs firing at reduced power will usually only equal about 8k damage. A full BFAW3 will deal easily that and more.
Changing BO will hardly affect PvE at all. And any PvE changes don't really matter... because... PvE is a faceroll. I can do PvE using just two abilities and never die. Tactical Team 1, EPtS1. Throw in the occasional HE and Aux2SIF, and you don't die. Period.
Two answers:
Mogai
Torpedo boat
Option 3 is the only workable option.
90% of my builds rely on 2x dual heavies 1x torp 1x Dual beam bank. I've spent a lot time, in game currency, real life currency perfecting these builds. Remove the ability to stack Beam Overload and that is that, a fix that makes everyone happy (never was a fan).
A beam overload alpha, followed by cannon rapid fire/ Torp HY will make my Klingon BoP's obsolete and useless if the developers go with option 1.
Ideally, I prefer to see Beam Overload damage based on the number of beams on the ship and cannot be fired back to back. But I am afraid this change would be too complex.
Realistically, I think BO should have an internal CD, which doesn't allow it be fired more than once within a 5 seconds period.
With respect, every niche build is very expensive.
For example : Pure Federation Science Vessel
Picture here
Ship + Tact Consoles + Sci Consoles + 5 space doff = 125 mil + 40 mil + 100 mil + 90 mil = 355 million ec, not including the cost of weapons, uni consoles and devices.
I am sure there are other examples. As a comparison, the BoP's double tap build is nothing compared to the cost of a Federation Pure Science build. The most expensive item being Marion at about 20 mil, that's nothing. Yet, the double tap exploit has resulted in one-shot of big cruisers and is constantly being abused in game, which makes no sense whatsoever. This exploit needs to be fixed. The balance needs to be taken in moderation to be sure however the "cost" is not one of the valid reasons.
Its not the bop abusing this so much, its the T'Varos and other warbirds, and a lot more of them are fedroms then kdf.
Most bop don't even use marion as its like 70 mil for kdf if you can even find it, we are using setups similar to what Drizzt just said, 1dbb, 2dhc, and 1 torp and relying on precise timing, watching the buff cycle and instantly tractoring and firing on decloak. The only thing close to double tapping you can do with that setup is using tac initiatve after activating bo and hy then waiting for it to get near the end of that timer so they can be fired quickly again, but still not as fast as a 2dbb setup most tvaros are using with marion.
Bop only has 4 boffs, and only tac boffs can buff crit chance unlike all boffs for romulans. so bop has to run 2 tac boffs, that leaves not much room for sci and eng for your heals and cc, so hard to fit dem on it unless you use the lt cmdr uni as eng then you will be short on something like an eptx, sci heal or tractor beam, and the way bop are outnumbered in kerrat you need those also.
On a Tvaro however it gets 5 boffs, and 2 are cmdr and ensign tac, just enough to do alphas with, allowing the lt cmdr uni to be used as eng, making it much easier to fit dem in and not be short on heals or crit rate, thats why these are abusing this tactic with marion and 2dbb much more. Its a easy mode alpha that doesn't require as much skill and timing as a bop alpha without using marion.
Its not bo that is the problem or bop, its marion, and romulans with op ships and boffs.
The double tap is an old design I first saw over a year and a half ago designed on the Defiant w/cloak. The only reason it never saw mass use was the insane level of precision needed to wield it correctly.
The KDF BoP pilot are not even close to being the BO boogeyman in this game. Grethors furnaces, only a handful of BoP pilots even have the skills needed to decloak strike properly much less achieve the grand claims found in this subject matter.
If our fragile BoPs could so easily achieve Double tapping the aether of Ker'rat space would be awash in fed blood and the forums would be filled with ******** of how unsafe it was to be a fed within it.
Its sad to see the 5 day bleed hissy fit that PvP has become every time someone thinks up a good build concept that outs the old concept that the playerbase has become acustomed too.
Makes the game truelly unpleasing and unworth the effort.
R.I.P
The problem is a combination of all the things that make it what it is. If the devs do not intend for people to spike that much then space out the time between each BO by option 3. One other alternative might be to exclude beam overload from being covered by marion, don't like it well tough, now you know what non escort classes feel like in PvE.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
A broken power or combination for effect that is legitamely not working as intended is one thing, but every new idea that comes down the creative pipe is not a mistake or a sign of exploitation. It gets old to see threads like "A2B and Bfaw is an exploit" or " BO stacking is unfair" or any thread that claims its exploitive to think outside the box and use new ways to achieve a desieed effect.
Not to mention it confuses us whom wish to enjoy PvP but can not because the court of public opinion is constantly crying foul over the slightest thing.
Fix what IS broken, not what is not.
R.I.P
Indeed. There's a big difference between simply making a new build idea, or also just simply adapting to the meta, which really, is what this shift of 'double tap BO builds' has come from.
Defensive power creep has majorly increased the survivability rate of all ships by a considerable factor, as such, the meta-game has changed to focus on delivering as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.
Or in other words: This usage of people going to BO builds IS people adapting. It isn't really a FOTM anymore, it's meta-game now.
Plus, to say that 'evil BoPs' are the cause of it is silly at best.
Unless I am confused ( and it is possible) Tac Boff abilities like CRF and HYT plus others that buff damage will no longer be stackable due to a 5 second waiting period between the use of one and before the prepping of the second.
Wonder how this will affect Tac Boff use on any vessel?
Does this fix ruin A2B builds and thus weaken cruisers again?
How does it affect the cycling of the indirect damage buffing powers like ApO?
Should the career Boff buffing abilities of other classes be similiarly fixed to keep stacking to a minimum?
Should players even bother with PvP anymore since any good or creative use of the ability choices that kills another player in STO is always nerfed because some players refuse to accept the fact they are not invincible and can die as easily as the next player to a better foe?
R.I.P
I doubt it will affect the tac boff use on most non escorts as we just don't have the number of tactical positions. CRF and CSV will be unaffected AFAIK as it has a 15s duration from activation.
Doubt it will affect A2B cruisers for the most part.
Might nerf APD/APO back to back, might not, I don't think it will as I think it's more to stop same ability stacking as in APO with APO straight after which cannot be done so it won't affect APO.
Should stacking be kept to a minimum, I dunno, it's great when teamwork happens like a sci uses sensor scan on enemies in a GW and a CPB3 to soften shields as a tactical swoops (yes, swooping is bad.) in with APA on, CSV and a torp spread and all is decimated. That's good stacking.
Super stacking of class specific buffs so that one skill suddenly gets blown completely out of proportions...not so big a fan. It leads to nerfs and others that are not that class suffering. It's usually a tactical but it could happen with engineers and how unkillable they can be or sci....nah that last one will never happen.
As for dying to better foes. Well I casual PvP. Do I come crying on here when I get my TRIBBLE handed to me from ganking Klingons using 200 different abilities on me and elite interceptors to weaken me and I die? Not really. I haven't really invested in it and I'm just happy if I can stop 2 of them ganging up on me.
Do I complain about how my science abilities in PvE have no teeth due to the insanely high shields/hull compared to players in PvP and other things? You betcha but I don't complain about someone beating me in PvP because they put more time and effort into their build.
As with all of it we'll just have to check it on tribble. I will be testing the PvE aspect of it but here's a curious thing. In that entire post about double tapping only once was PvE brought up and it was immediately dismissed as inconsequential and that that person could do PvE with only 2 abilities.
I do dislike how no-one thinks or seems to care about the impact it has on PvE for both the high end of the spectrum and the medium and low. As I said to Iskandus, we should not balance the game for PvP at the cost of the PvE majority.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
What one can not adapt too must be nerfed is not how one balances a game.
R.I.P
It depends if there is no counter or whether they are too bone idle to counter it. Either way I doubt this BO change will affect PvE at all as most players can't/don't use it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Look at Black Ops, they started with one Nerf, the AK74U, then procedded to nerf EVERYTHING as it was better and everyone was using it until it was the 74u back at the top with less damage than it originally had.....
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Couple things I'd like to say, Bpharma:
1. I'm in the same boat as some others are: PvE just isn't that difficult. I wouldn't go so far as to say you only need two abilities, but it is easy. And anything that was difficult is getting easier.
PvE doesn't challenge people, doesn't make them work. Those that do PvE and significantly work on their builds are a rarity. Most don't bother, or just use a cookie-cutter build. Yes, exceptions to every rule, I know.
2. Anytime a nerf happens, in terms of combat stuff, most people are not willing to 'put up or shut up'. Or in other words, most just don't want to actually provide evidence for why something shouldn't be nerfed or altered. Like the SIC console, most people simply got behind the nice, 'safe' banner of "PvPers are evil, they want to nerf everything", and that was that for them.
No real arguments aside from mostly complaints, no videos, no proof, no evidence. No tests were done to show ANYTHING for why it shouldn't be nerfed.
I'm pretty confident that if people were actually willing to put up some testing results and evidence, things might go a bit better.
You say there's the PvE majority, which I agree with, but that majority isn't willing to do all that much most of the time. If they did put something forward more, that 'majority weight' might actually apply more often.
And to make true by my own words, here's an example:
Item X is under review for a potential nerf.
PvPers have tested it considerably, with videos and tests, etc.
PvEers just see it as another nerf of something.
A PvEer says, "PvPers don't ever want to adapt to anything new. All they want is to nerf everything so they don't have to!"
A PvPer might come in and say, "Ok, then how do you counter X?"
My question to ask is: When that situation occurs (and it has plenty and will happen plenty in the future), how often does the PvEer answer and actually offer anything to that PvPer as any kind of proof as to how to counter it. Most of the time I see that the PvEer person simply ignores it.
As a primary PvE'er, i would gladly accept all nerfs if Optional timers where extended.
This is the example ill go with, The hive, (Nerfed or unNerfed) It is really difficult to take out 6 1Mil HP Tac cubes and all those little EPtE Spheres in the time given.
Instead of Nerfs why not put in Counters?
So instead of making people angry and appeasing others find a way to appease more people(clearly not everyone as not everyone is ever happy)
Now i do PvEvP (Ker'rat) and i think the damage boost from Battle Cloak should be dropped to +5 All damage.
My reasoning is the Near Constant Alpha strikes these guys keep doing. (Experience from the times ive been in there)
Now im not saying all romulans and klingons are evil PvP'ers, but when ive got three of them slapping me around and i cant hit anyone because they are in and out of cloak so fast.
Or increase the CD in between cloaks. So at least you have more than a few seconds to do something.
I know the Wiki states its 20s but i just dont see it, as i ve seen people in and out (would love to have video proof but sadly i dont have that ability)
Maybe its just me. Who knows.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/10char
I can confirm there seem to be some romulans who can decloak; fire their strike; and recloak within 1 - 2 seconds.
Kinda of curious as to how they do that; if it is something you can do using skills; BOFF;s and DOFF's; hey good in them for finding the way.
If they are exploiting some "broken" ability; then shame on them.
I am not saying people who can do this are evil; but there is a difference between finding a buildf that can do this; and using a exploit/
Same with the Dual Beam overload stacking; I am kinda of on the fence about this; I have seen it myself with my cruiser being double BO overloaded (so far have survived each time).
We have to be careful with this; if we are going to "nerf" the ability to do double BO; cryptic have to find a way to do it without affecting the other BOFF abilities or tactical abilities.
Very tight rope we have here on our hands
I admit, a bit longer on the timer for the first part of Hive would be nice. Anyways, thing is, most nerfs really don't affect PvE most of the time, at least not as much as people think. I mean, it can be nice to have other things to hold enemies down or whatever, but the PvE content itself just simply has NOT changed. The Borg are still the Borg, the Tholians are still the Tholians, they don't change, there's nothing new or challenging.
Counters are nice, and I agree, but you can only counter so much. People can cleanse/counter Graviton Pulse with engineering team, but if someone on another team is spamming it, they KNOW that, and they will force you to spend all those counters.
Nerfing cloaks won't change anything. Romulans have flipped the game, PvP-wise at the very least, on it's side. Even if you nerfed cloaks, Romulan BOFFs are what really throw everything out of whack.
Back when season 7 first hit, and they added in the Embassy, Romulan BOFFs weren't bad. You could get some nice traits, but it was limited.
Romulan toons however, can get a full bridge crew of 5 of them with TWO space traits, including one of them being Superior level most of the time.
You are right, 20 seconds is the base for cloaking. With Embassy BOFFs, a Fed/KDF can get their cloak CD to about 15 seconds. A nice reduction, but nothing OTT. Along with a nice boost to Def, CrtH, CrtD, etc.
A Romulan can easily get that to 10 seconds. Not to mention have a LOT more base CrtH/CrtD due to double space traits, have that bonus def, much longer Ambush buff duration and a much stronger Ambush buff compared to Feds or KDF. It's so long, the Ambush buff lasts LONGER than their cooldown for their cloak itself, hence why you might see the 'cloak flicker' as people just quickly cloak and de-cloak to re-fill the Ambush buff.
Though Romulans do essentially have a permanent almost-APA running with all their bonus crit and Ambush bonuses. Heck, then make it a Romulan tac for actual tac captain bonuses.
That doesn't really pertain to the topic at hand however.
But thats just the thing, Abuse makes nerfs, not Evil PvP'ers. And you are correct most PvE isn't impacted by Nerfing.
But in a specific case, How will this Nerf affect me and my Dreadnought?
Will i only be able to use either my Lance or my BO? if so thanks for players Abusing things wrecking my ship and making it even more obsolete (without specialized builds)than it already is. UNLESS they unlink BO and the Lance's CD and Interaction.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My understanding is that you will no longer be able to fire two HYTs back-to-back. CRF shouldn't really be affected: CRF has a 15-second shared cooldown and lasts for 10 seconds, so it always had a 5-second gap.
Indeed.
I do not know the answer to your question however. Instead all I can say is, once this change is put on Tribble, if it hasn't been already, go on there, and test it. Find out for yourself, make a post with your results, push for them to not have Lance (and to a lesser extent, other 'super weapons' like the Quantum Phaser off the Vesta) and BO affect each other. Show them your results, let people KNOW, and most likely that will not happen.
The BO changes might still happen, but at least the interactions between BO and 'super weapons' wouldn't be altered.
Ambush damage doesn't affect things as much as you think.
Besides, nerf Ambush, won't change how Romulan BOFFs have changed things so much.
If a tactic was not bad when used by the few whom kept it a rare event why is it suddenly bad when it is adopted by the masses?
There in lies my personal angst on how a tactic is ok if only a handful know it but a teavesty of balance when everyone does it.
We see it with the BO stacking debacle, heard it as an outcry about A2B, and have seen it in the past with APO recently... The one question always pops back into my mind...
Why is it ok when a few discover a tactic and use it for a length of time but suddenly said tactic is evil when it becomes common knowledge?
R.I.P
Well BO-stacking is nothing new, you know that, Roach. Been around forever. Those who were good at it, was because it took them a lot of time and effort to get their skill to that level. Most people didn't want to put in the work, they just expected an 'I win' strategy that apparently had no effort or skill in it, when the exact opposite is true.
Now, it's gotten so popular in today's meta, because of ALL the passive mitigation, healing, etc that has been given to everyone: Fleet shields, rep passives, etc.
BO-stacking got popular due to that stuff. Not saying everyone did it, but it got more widespread. To some it was a problem, and they bitched of course. I never considered it an issue personally. But the meta shifted according to how survivable people have become. Players adapted to that accordingly, but others weren't willing to adapt to counter said BO builds.
It also got more popular due to stuff like the Marion DOFF, and the Omega Weapons Amplifier.
HOWEVER, it was the choice of the devs that they are changing it, they considered BO-stacking (and to another extent: Stacking other weapon buffs, like double Torp spreads for example) an exploit, and that is that in this case. Irregardless of what people think, it is being changed now.
Choices 3) and 6)
3) Once a Beam Overload buff is activated, a 2nd copy cannot be activated until the first copy is fired, similar to how different copies of Subsystem Targeting cannot be stacked on top of each other until the first one is fired or expired
6) Beam Overload has an internal CD such that no more than 1 copy can be fired within every 5 seconds cycle
As noted here as well :
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12291751&postcount=35
Thanks to everyone who participated, we provided valuable feedback to the Devs that ultimately resulted in positive changes.
Congratulations to all those who picked Choice #3 and #6