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Its PvP. Someone has to die.
ussultimatum
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This thread was inspired by a post by adjucatorhawk.
Let's move away from specific powers for a moment, and address the larger issue.
My question is, what amount of time is appropriate foir it to take to kill someone in STO PvP?
This is a game with "magic" style healing, that can heal a player completely.
I think there is a problem with the assumption that killing someone in a short time (say 3 to 5s) is bad in this game, when the reality is that the windows don't get much longer than 15s to begin with against any organized opposition.
It's not PvE.
Attrition damage does not matter - we don't have enough of it to outpace current healing, and it can completely be wiped away.
You can hammer at a big Gate or Cube that will eventually die.
Players can heal themselves, they can heal each other, they have passive abilities that automatically repair damage.
They have resistances that no NPC has, and all of this gets inflated with every new season or major update.
They have an ensign level power that turns 1 shield facing into 4 shield facings for 10s out of every 15s and completely removes all damage debuffs.
So what is an acceptable window for someone to die? 5s? 10s? 15s?
Is it reasonable to require up to 3 subnucs on a single target + 2 escorts worth of APA + damage to score a single kill against good opposition?
Is it within the design that some PvP matches should go 30 minutes? 45 minutes? 60 minutes? Or the legendary matches that ran for 3 hours?
Most recent tournaments now have a cap on a single match of 45 minutes.
That's a relatively short match.
Maybe too much spike in too short of a window is problematic, but is it any more problematic than what brought us to these spike windows in the first place?
adjucatorhawk wrote:Yeah, I'm not a fan of this mechanic - it's way too much burst damage in a short window. I'll probably take a look at this soon.
Let's move away from specific powers for a moment, and address the larger issue.
My question is, what amount of time is appropriate foir it to take to kill someone in STO PvP?
This is a game with "magic" style healing, that can heal a player completely.
I think there is a problem with the assumption that killing someone in a short time (say 3 to 5s) is bad in this game, when the reality is that the windows don't get much longer than 15s to begin with against any organized opposition.
It's not PvE.
Attrition damage does not matter - we don't have enough of it to outpace current healing, and it can completely be wiped away.
You can hammer at a big Gate or Cube that will eventually die.
Players can heal themselves, they can heal each other, they have passive abilities that automatically repair damage.
They have resistances that no NPC has, and all of this gets inflated with every new season or major update.
They have an ensign level power that turns 1 shield facing into 4 shield facings for 10s out of every 15s and completely removes all damage debuffs.
So what is an acceptable window for someone to die? 5s? 10s? 15s?
Is it reasonable to require up to 3 subnucs on a single target + 2 escorts worth of APA + damage to score a single kill against good opposition?
Is it within the design that some PvP matches should go 30 minutes? 45 minutes? 60 minutes? Or the legendary matches that ran for 3 hours?
Most recent tournaments now have a cap on a single match of 45 minutes.
That's a relatively short match.
Maybe too much spike in too short of a window is problematic, but is it any more problematic than what brought us to these spike windows in the first place?
mancom wrote:The core problem is that the inflation in shield resists due to the elite fleet shields has made this instakill approach pretty much the only thing other than multi-SNBing that still works to actually score a point against a somewhat coordinated opponent.
Post edited by ussultimatum on
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You guys.
Gee wiz you guys just don't get it. It shouldn't be about how long it takes to die. But I guess that's all you guys can think of in ARENA PVP. ARENA PVP that's been around since Quake1. ARENA PVP where the only thing that does matter is how long it takes to kill someone.
The customers and the developers will never get it, they will never improve PVP. They will never understand that the root of the problem IS ARENA PVP.
Here's an equation for you all: Get rid of the ARENA = fix pvp.
In a 1v1, the time range fluctuates even here. I have been in these sort of matches; I've killed ships within 5 seconds, and I've tanked for over 30 minutes before calling it a stalemate. Trying to place a time frame on data that is all over the board won't accurately represent the whole spectrum.
I was thinking about this "magic" style healing. Perhaps if Cryptic switched over to a system where hull regeneration is very low but damage resists are very high, and balanced it accordingly, subnucs would only be a "softener" and not something that can be chained to prevent an enemy from having any active buff/debuffs.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Ask yourself, "Do I autoresolve?" And why do you autoresolve.
Do you know how incredibly boring this game would be without the big map. IN fact it would be a shadow of it's current self and barely anyone would buy it.
It would take care of itself, both in PvP and PvE.
And then you managed to find a break in heal cycles or catch someone off guard and they're gone in 3 seconds flat.
Many solution have been proposed to this. Ask systems, they are the pro's after all.
It doesn't matter if the kill window is 5s 7s or 99s. Burst being the only viable damage kind, thats the problem. I hate to sound like a hippie, but its all connected. While we whine about CC via universal consoles, and ZOMGPEW tac Boffs, the broken trinity is at the heart of all of this.
hawks, post just reconfimed my opinion that systems is quite clueless about pvp or the complete set of skills and abilities they have bestowed onto players.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Everything should be about different amounts of pressure. Remove peaks and valleys, convert to a model of sustained DPS is winner, and then let the zippy escorts enter and leave the engagement as needed for survival. Right now its all decloak spike escorts who strike as opportunity presents itself, do not bring any other ships.
Yeah this would go a long way too, especially the magic hull repairs.
Not my own idea, but much more trek imv.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Agreed. There is way too much spike damage in this game, as it stands. Only a handful of ships in Trek have been seen to perform the kind of spike damage we see on a regular basis.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Also doffs and procs have to much influence on skill power numbers.
Ships we fly are getting faster and better and Cryptic sells us more stuff. Once upon a time one subnuke was fine for killing somebody if the team wasn't quite on guard. Now it's two subnukes and in some bad cases three. The more nukes we have the more clears for it we tend to have. Add in all the placates, misses, etc and as you say, the window of opportunity is tiny.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Do you even Science Bro?
Here we go, a juicy nugget to latch on to.
So let's talk about the opposite side of the burst coin.
Burst healing.
How much healing is acceptable to put out in the space of 3s?
If its not acceptable to overload a target's shields, resistance and hull with a single, massive attack in a short window.
Why is it OK to bring that target from, literally, the brink of death to full health in what can often be just as short a window?
There is also more healing over time than there is damage over time.
Which brings us back to tiny burst windows and multiple chained subnucs.
Well there is damage that would be pressure damage.
That isn't actually the problem.
Ballooning resistances, passive heals lapped onto what we already had with cross-healing and no diminishing returns on heals basically drowns the pressure damage that actually exists.
It's just prevented from doing anything.
Reg, truly you have a gift for understatement. :P
thats the fundamental problem with pressure, spike only has to deal with 1 shield facing, it blows through it and delivers damage faster then distribution tics can close the hole. the only real solution is to replace pressure damage wherever it is, with SHC and beam arrays with 2 shots per cycle, not 4. on fed cruisers, beam arrays equipped up front should fire 1 shot per cycle. this would create a dynamic that hits hard and effectively, but can lack a follow up. this is were you would want torps for example, if the game mechanics allowed them to even work. fewer shots, greater effect is whats needed in a game with regeneration, shield distribution, and active and passive heals. thats all there is to it. take that same honest look at torpedoes as well, the game has to many things working against them for it to be possible to use them on anything but a thissler style alpha. and thats far to narrow a usage.
The model won't support it.
The devs are extremely unlikely to go taking a nerf bat to all of the different heal powers and how they function. Could you for a moment, even imagine the level of PvEr rage this would induce?
They are even less likely to start taking whacks at all of the Rep passives, Rep gear, fleet gear and all of the items to come.
All of the inflation for player survivability, all of the power creep.
It's not going to change.
So my thread here, is to pose the question on if that is the case then why do we need to tone down spike damage?
Does it even make sense to?
As I said in the other thread, no one likes to be killed in under 5s.
On the other hand, no one likes to beat their heads against a target that yo-yo's from near death to full health and 50%+ resistances constantly either.
This is PvP, and unlike PvE - someone does have to die.
in most cases theres to big a difference between organized teams and puging, you cant balance one without ruining the other. if they made it easier for escorts to kill in premades, 4 DHCs would kill every pug in a single weapons cycle.
Deaths will happen even faster. 2-3s will be 1-2s (can't get below the 0.5s activation times, lol). Deaths that don't happen, can't take longer not to happen - but yeah, er...they will take longer not to happen. :P
S8's going to have a new Rep. There'll even be a new STF quality gear set. Probably get another secondary set. Etc, etc, etc...
Face it, how long before folks are firing Torp Spreads of Genesis Devices, eh?
Very rarely is it that you actually see someone slowly die out.
In terms of abstract, ideal TTK values? For PvP in MMOs, that sweet spot is usually in the 20 sec - 2 min range, depending on the class and skill loadout matchup and the abilities used by either participant. A sitting duck totally failing to mitigate incoming damage in any way may die faster than that, but they would soon learn not to be a sitting duck and not to fail to mitigate damage. TTK for PCs has to be substantially longer than TTK for NPCs (many of whom need to die in under 20 seconds for the PCs defeating them to feel accomplishment).
It's a complex problem that's not fully solved within the industry, but those are my general thoughts on the situation. As a tangent to answer one of your later questions, the prolonged match times of 45 mins - 3 hours are a big problem for accessibility of the game to new players, but they're potentially core aspects to what the current PvP players enjoy, so any change to that would be considered risky and approached very carefully.
Please don't take this post as advocating for any changes or announcing anything other than my own, personal, inner thoughts on what makes PvP tick in MMORPGs. Just trying to have some real talk - if this post gets misconstrued and twisted to fit agendas, I'll have to avoid talking theorycraft and design with you guys in the future (in this abstract sense), and that would suck - so please don't do that.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Why dont you make a special 'how to survive an alpha' you punk!
The problem these days is that ppl take so much pay2win and uni consoles on their ship they totally lost sight of some self survivability. Im not saying its the only reason but it has alot to do with it IMO.
In the old days we didnt have pay2win and lobi and what not rep consoles, we always took a few neuts on etc. Shield caps.
The feeling of being "outplayed" or not changes. An issue is the power creep in ships, gear, rep, etc has pushed the extremes of that and even changed the way the meta game flows, imo.
The game balances differently when using base ships w/no rep and common/green gear than after all the power creep is counted, they require different playstyles because of the extremes.
In otherwords, you're never gonna find the "sweet spot" of 20-60 seconds with such extremes.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
*personal opinion not speaking for others*
45min for a good match to produce a result, or call it quits seems like a naturally grown preference from among those regular pvp'ers. So I'd say it makes a reasonable target.
This is for an arena or CnH match. I had fun in matches that werew much longer, but those always were and always will be the exception. The way that memory works, there were countless zombie matches that felt like an eternity i just wanted to warp out of.
The crucial word here is *match*
What people don't like if pre-match arrangements take 45 min, and the ensuing game despite obvious differences in skill/gear between both teams, still result in 3h matches. (not sitting still kind of noobish, but obviously differences in skill levels)
As for the agency, that one is simple: Less procs! The only time i feel like there is nothing i could have done is when procs ruin or save the day, more then what i do/time/count etc. STo pvp has a lot of procs maybe too many.
Ideally the meta would allow me to make choices that work will in premade and pug settings. Every skill has its use, and a counter, every class is viable, no console ship, boff, reigns supreme over all alternatives. Subsequently a match where skill and gear is very imbalnaced between two teams, should end the misery in something like 5-15 min. Not too quick, we want people to have time to observe and understand whats going on around them. Different play styles are hugely important: Not everyone enjoys tac/scort *boom* your dead, hi heal me i m an escort, go support me. What is the current place of slower game modes. Super vapor burst is a tac thing, what about eng and sci?
A match between balanced teams ~45min sounds good to me. With good (not zombie) 3h matches remaining the cake at the end of the STO labyrinth.
As for the burst vs pressure debate. How do you feel the current game plays out in this respect?
Lol @ agenda.
P.S.: Of course with a big enough sustainable carrot at the end of the stick. Something like territory, resources, etc. Those DS 9 style battles could be much longer and still be very entertaining.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Thanks for your insightful and constructive view on this. Indeed as have been said by many players old and new, this is not a subject that can be cured with a magical nerf pill. It is much more complex than this and more deeper. The one thing i picked up on is the mitigating factor a players individual skill/ experiance which some people fail to take into account when someone gets blown up in 2 secs.
Of course it's much more fulfilling to kill someone in 5+ mins or so, much more satisfying and much more skillful in your choice of abilities and timing and I do miss those days
But equally so popping someon in 2 secs is also satisfying for the right reasons. Tweaking your build, perfecting it and practising it until you go blue in the face.
There is a reason Minimax/Emo has perfected his skills in killing you in as little time as possible. He didn't get given it, but he found it out himself and perfected it through trial and error like most of us has in formulating builds that suit our own style of play.
There is a time and place for Double tap builds, but simply nerfing them will not solve the issue of high resists/ abilities/ Zombie builds. There is also the team element to consider and whether this should be put into consideration as they often prime the target before escort go pew pew.
All in all it's not a position I would want to be in having to find a solution that fits all, ultimately there may not be and you may make matters worse.
Since this is Star trek may I refer to the Timeship Krenim and his persuit of undoing 'unfavourable' timelines, ultimately made his own worse.
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
YES! exactly! if i get outplayed, im not bothered at all! that roles off me, and i learn something, its all part of pvp and having fun. for to many actually getting killed is immersion ruining, they have a terrible attitudes, i guess thats what most of the player base is?
im sure a great many are driven away by the feeling of being cheated, weather valid or not. it could be easy to mistake getting cheated to getting out played when your just inexperienced. the addition of new items, sets, abilitys, and ship is constantly turning things on its head though. sometimes you are being cheated, the subspace console is a perfect example. having no rep, item sets, doffs or elite equipment and going up against people that do will make you feel pretty cheated no mater how good a sport you are, the item gap is exponentially wide now.
wile it makes a quick buck, for current players, it discourages new players away, they will need a year of casual playing and learning starting from scratch to get on the level they need to be to be competitive. i was able to 'finish' gearing up my rom in 3 months, because i had so much established and saved on my account already, and already knew pretty much everything there was to know.
most of my builds take a window about that size to kill other players. it feels sort of cheep to me to go for insta vape builds, i guess i just like balanced resilient builds that fight my opponents man to man, and i play to out strong arm the other guy. wining then is whats satisfying to me, i dont want the other guy feeling cheated.
its great to hear from you about this stuff, im glad devs are thinking about the same things we are, and having the same concerns as well. there just so many things effected by every new little addition, it all stacks, and its all connected, and it does chance the dynamic of literally every player interaction with another player, slightly or profoundly.