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Undergunned Science Vessels
capnshadow27
Member Posts: 1,731 Arc User
And before people start pointing me at "10K DPS" vestas, I directly mean lacking in weapon slots, out side of that i am actually more than happy with most of my science ships.
I just think they could do with more weapon slots. Espescially since they are basically stuck with beams - the vesta of course.
Thoughts?
Comments?
Rage?
I just think they could do with more weapon slots. Espescially since they are basically stuck with beams - the vesta of course.
Thoughts?
Comments?
Rage?
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Post edited by capnshadow27 on
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Comments
But thats what i mean, aside from the shield modifiers, they are the least armed ships in the, and cyrptic/pwe's answer to that was the sensor scan. which takes too long to really build up in most cases.
i could care less about having cannons on cruiser types, im fine with them being locked mostly onto escorts. BUT science ships are great crwod control ships that are mostly at a loss once they have that crowd. not a big hull and not enough weapons.
outside of the vesta.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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"Underlooked" is correct.
I don't really mind having 6 weapons, even with sensor analysis' complete futility.
Point being, other science skills make them seem undergunned.
Heck, even a fleet science vessel retrofit can outgun a bugship, but how many science-specific skills does it need to sacrifice?
The captains' skill sensor scan was made in advance right to smooth as much as possibile the dps abyss between sci's lesser weaponry and the tac's uber-cannon boats.
What makes it useless is it's reload time.
3 frickin minutes.
Just think its logic. You scan a vessel, you debuff it, and then? Then your sensors have to be recalibrated for 3 minutes.
Really? Is scanning a vessel really so intensive that you need to recalibrate your sensors from scratch because of that?
TL;DR: Want sci to keep up with tacs? Reduce the sensor scan's ability cooldown time!
this is specifically about the ships and their BO's and weapons. NOT YOUR TOON.
AND not to make science ships too much stronger, but i would like to not have to sacrafice a beam for a torpedoe.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Then you're missing the point of science ships.
Science ships are meant to be flown by science captains with a main focus on science skills.
Science ships are fine, they lack however the backbone that makes other ships effective: actual usefulness of the captain's inherent career.
A sci ship still more effective when flown by anything but a sci, despite all the skillpoints you want to spend on science skills.
Don't want to sacrifice 2 weapons on a sci vessel? Go for star cruisers.
Also, BOff abilities are and always will (except a few cases) be affected by the player's skill build.
But the main point is that science skills IN GENERAL are way underlooked by the devs than they should.
BUt let's analyze what your last post said.
Then you have made a science captain for no reason since you're flying a kind of ships that has no real purpouse to you other than compensating lacking dps and resiliency.
The toon makes the ship and viceversa.
You can skill a crossover between a sci and eng, but if you fly an escort there's no point to it.
There will NEVER be a 4/4 science vessel.
Even the Nebula which belongs to the Galaxy-ships family has no 4/4 layout despite the size.
If they'll ever make a sci ship with 4/4 weaponsl, then i think that'd be a:
The game got a dps-centric spin since it got acquired by PWE.
Sci ships will either mount cannons or simply won't exist.
Also, Devs don't really look at forums, so no matter how much grey matter we can put into this topic they'll never listen(or read, if you wish) to good reasons to rework science ship's concept.
Now that aside YES science ships are meant for science toons, BUT that aside science ships have weaker hulls, and less weapons. while they benefit from all the science abilities, they should get a little more love. Especially the nebula being in th same weight class as the Galaxy.
telling me to go for a cruiser is pointless, like did you think that tiny revelation was going to say something and people would have an epihany? I OWN cruisers.
Science ships need to have a little more in the beef category, they have the best crowd control with nothing to back it up.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Be glad you have dedicated science ships with the best shield modifiers in the game.
Now, lighthearted trolling aside: I feel the science ships themselves are relatively okay. You have to realize they aren't intended to DPS like other ships. One of the Fleet science ships has a LTC eng slot, allowing for Emergency Power to Weapons 3 - a moderate boost to damage and weapon power. They can be made to work well enough, especially when working with others.
Now for the science skills . . .yeah, they're low on the DPS front. They're kinda meant to be. I agree that some of them, like Tachyon Beam, need work. What you have to realize is that science powers will never be a source of raw DPS. That's what the tactical powers are for. What science is designed to do is drain power, disable subsystems, slow/stop targets, disable cloaks, damage shields, and so on. All of these are support powers, and are actually reasonably powerful as they are.
The real problem is the NPCs. They are essentially either immune to the effects of these powers, or the effect that the powers have is pretty meaningless given high hull, etc. Disabling subsystems doesn't really change the outcome of the battle like pouring raw firepower on 'em will do. About the only thing sci does truly effectively against NPCs is draining power, rendering them unable to shoot you or move. You can then pick them apart with the beams at your leisure, and it's only become easier with the introduction of the Plasmonic Leech to the Federation faction.
Rather than redesigning science powers, we need to make the NPCs more susceptible to science powers somehow.
Lastly: If you really think science ships or powers are 'useless' or 'weak', then I suggest flying them in PvP. You will soon realize just how devastating a strong sci build can be, especially with the science officer's subnucleonic beam. Science ships are essential in PvP, and that's in the current state of ships and sci powers.
Also, sci ships are the best shield-tankers in the game. That's gotta count for something, eh?
With that in mind, I vaguely remember, back on the old forums, reading that at one time Science ships had the same 4/3 weapons loadout as escorts did, however, when one skilled into both weapons and science in the old tree that resulted in a build that could do more DPS than escorts...
So a gun was popped to compensate.
After the F2P conversion and the tree consolidation, most Science damages went from "exotic" to Kinetic. At that point, they fell under sway of the "Tac trinity" APA / FoMM / GDF, which caused ships like MVAEs (that have a Lt Cmdr sci slot) to generate gravity well Is that were more damaging than a fully skilled out GW III from a Sci ship. Of course, the damage level and grab of these tac-modified science powers were so high that PvP escorts were being popped by a single GW, or gimped by a PSW/CPB/TBR, etc... To "fix" this PvP issue, all science damages were "adjusted" so that fully buffed tacs don't OHK in PvP...
Which is why you see the plethora of "fix science skill" threads, at one time Science was capable of playing the "mage" to the Escort's warrior and the Cruiser's Cleric.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Yep, i forgot about that.
however, being STO lacking quite widely on the PvP front, i try to use it only as a last verdict for the topics.....
No, sci ships have always been 3/3 ships at high-tiers.
The rest is true, back before F2P exotic was sci BOff-only and was a damage type on it's own.
Heck, before F2P even charged particle burst had it's use....
Not for PWE.
They'd rather want you to dumb 400mil EC into a bugship rather than rework sci ships (or NPCs like timezarg said)
Not necessarily.
Ignoring science for the moment, you have two remaining philosophies / play styles available to you:
Escorts with "best defense = good offense" method. Hit fast, hard, often. However, the ability to land these hard hits is supposed to be offset with an inability to take a solid hit - which is supposed to force the escort pilot into maneuvers designed to exploit their hits and minimize their own damages (dancing)...
Cruisers, OTOH, are designed with "defense" in mind and a "slugfest" mentality - get in, start whacking, and resist/heal long enough so that the enemy eventually pops...
Taking just these two classes and the "common" storyline oppositions - 3x frigates and solitary cruisers...
Escort: 2 hit kill each frigate. Easy-breezy, 30 second engagement. When it comes up against the cruiser, it's supposed to be in such fear of the counterattack that it has to dance. Spending more time in maneuver to stay away from counterattack and trying to whack the same weak spot, it takes the escort 4 minutes to wear down the cruiser till it pops.
Cruiser: wade in, slugging away till each frigate eventually pops. 2 minutes of shooting / healing. Come up to enemy cruiser, enter slugfest mode, outheal enemy for 2:30 boom.
So the overall goal isn't supposed to be "separate but equal" in every individual engagement, yet after running the same gauntlet of everything the game has to throw at you it should have taken everyone the same amount of time...
Bringing sciences back into the equation, they can be the most versatile class. CC focus makes Scis pop frigates as fast as escorts, but leave them equally weak against big ships as escorts are. Or, they go disable and outlast instead of out-heal and outlast to take out big foes and have the same issues with locking down the whole squadron of ships...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
This originally wasn't a problem because science abilities had the potential to do a bunch of damage to compensate. However. they've been slowly getting their viability 'nerfed' again. and again, and again.. to the point that only a select few actually still have meaningful damage potential - and others are outright useless now(looking at you, Tachyon Beam).
The sad reality of the current situation is that the best science abilities are the low level ones that most every ship has access to. Conversely, the high level abilites that require a science ship are lucky to even make an impact on the flow of combat.
Atrox/VQ does everything a pure sci ship can do, and put out above average DPS due to pets as well. You just need to put the work into learning how a big ship handles and what they can do.
Something is missing. I don't know what. I'll just fly a sci carrier instead. Come on, Fleet Atrox!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
And as an avid PvPer, I advocate that the options for PvP be expanded and that a tier system be put in to separate uber-skilled players from the new ones. Oh, and rewards be expanded as well :P
But really, you can't exactly ignore PvP, or the fact that science ships as they are now are quite sufficient in PvP, and in fact form the core of a strong 5-man team. PvP is where the 'trinity' really comes into play. NPC opponents. . .they've been designed in such a way that simply kicking out epic amounts of DPS is all you need to do in order to win. Sci powers aren't weak, they're just wasted on the NPCs. . .and if sci powers were re-worked to 'cause more damage', that would make things screwy in PvP. Now, I know a lot of people don't give two turds about PvP (their loss), but it does exist and its considerations do have to be taken into account when it comes to adjusting anything.
That's if you play against folks known to cheese to their heart's content. Usually happens with pugging the queues. Doesn't happen as much as you'd think in Ker'rat, for example, and private matches can be regulated.
Get into situations where there's no cheese spam, and suddenly things get more interesting.
all i can picture is a can of EZ-cheese
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
The guiding philosphy for the programers really should be as follows:
1. Make all ships and power such that they are balanced against each other in 1 on 1 match.
2. Make all ships and power such that they are balanced against each other in a 3 on 3 match where there is one of each career on each team.
3. Make all ships and powers such that any combination in a 5 vs. 5 match is balanced.
4. Tailor all NPC characters such that they provide a respectable challenge to a character with skills created under the first two guidances.
5. Make a variaty of NPCs with weaknesses such that a player can use any and all possible powers effectively.
I kind og like the model SWTOR went with for their PvP where you could use your regular gear and earn PvP gear that was better and modeled for PvP, i think that would eliminate alot of PvP problems.
As for the Boffs and their powers most of them do not make sense, Tractor beams and repulsor are more like engineering powers, and aceaton beam is more science. same can be said for ground, where uoi have an orbital strike as an eng isn't hat more tactical?
The entirety of this game was mashed together without any real thought to how a lot of these powers would be used, and they way most of them work, it is laughable how they work against PvE enemies.
Take for example the stealth module for the operative kit, Most PvE enemies see right through it.
And yes ships shouldn't be in the trinity model, as in most case sceince and tactical wins the day between DPS and Healing.
As it stands i like science ships for their Boff seating, but i like cruisers for their sheer mass and resiliency, but science ships are featherweights in heavyweight battles in PvE, most times with LESS hull than escorts, and a paltry addition to sheilds that get wrecked quickly any way, heck Escorts have better defense due to their sheer speed and lack of a huge need on Aux.
Maybe a solution is to just take away the power settings and make that just standard on every ship, even though that would negate most of engineeerings powers. this game just has too much going on to make it fall into a line of balance.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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We just had this discussion last week. Most Science abilities can be done by a universal module now. For example Plasmonic Leech. It almost as if they took science abilities away from the pure science ships and gave them tot he other ships to "balance" the ship classes.
That was so funny and so true. When I brought an Atrox (My only toon is a Engineer, but I love Science abilities), I had to relearn how to fight in the game. I was flying a Multi-Mission Reconnaissance Explorer for 3 months. Though I could out maneuver everyone, I would get blown up or have to run from the fight to heal my shields. But when I got an Atrox I would be in the middle of the fight. I felt like an Elephant in a room filled with roaches. I couldn't maneuver, but I was able to eventually stomp on every other ship.
But now I'm flying a Mirror Universe Star Crusier. And to me, it's the perfect blend between my atrox and my Aventine class. The larger hull really helps me, it's more maneuverable than the atrox but less than the Aventine class.
So my advice to the OP is to join the Cruisers online movement. So far crusiers are becoming the hybrid between Escort and Science ship. They give you the best of both worlds.
I've given up on purse science ships, for the reasons everyone said.
1. It's stats is identical to the Vo'Quv Carrier http://sto.gamepedia.com/Vo%27Quv_Carrier And those two ships are the slowest in the game (turn rate).
2. If it had a universal ensign slot (atleast) that would help make it more versatile.
I relied heavily on my carrier pets to help me with faster smaller ships. At times my Graviton well wouldn't hold a ship in place to take a pounding.
So in short...join the cruisers/carriers online movement. If you want a good blend of Science and Engineering, I recommend the Odyssey. It's sexy, big and you get 4 forward and 4 aft weapon slots. http://sto.gamepedia.com/Odyssey_Star_Cruiser
When STO released, relying on Science abilities was as effective as any other skilltree. Grav Well had a stronger pull and stronger kinetic damage if shields were down. Tykien's Rift had a stronger pull and stronger energy drain. One did not have to use Tactical BUFFs to make Feedback Pulse worthwhile. Back then, energy drain wasn't resisted easily as they are today... people complained about Energy Drains despite putting no points into Power Insulators, so Cryptic made Energy Drains a joke in affecting the target. Viral Matrix had a chance to affect shields, but this was changed so shields will never go down via VM.
Really, I can go on.
The problem isn't the science ships. The problem is that the powers that science ships are built to use heavily upon, SCIENCE skills, have been heavily nerfed from within the first 6 months of the game releasing, and Science has never recovered.
Tactical abilities are the favored upon skilltrees, most especially the TAC captains associated with it. ALL their skills have some great use somewhere, and the majority of them have a great place in PVE & PVP.
Engineer abilities can be relied upon to bring resiliency and additional power to key systems at an important time. They bring other buffs, such as Aux2Dampeners. Then there's the "Oh NOES" button that is RSP. Nobody questions that ENG can do some wonders for you.
Then there's underwhelming science abilities... They do pathetic damage nowadays, most especially if a Science Captain is trying to buff Science damage abilities, while a Tactical Captain sends it sky high. The "CC" that Science has been confined to is weak. Energy Drains resisted easily; Grav Well / Tykien's Rift pulls are becoming laughable with even NPCs moving away from them like it's not there. Really, it goes on.
Again, the ablities that Science ships are supposed to rely on have been nerfed years ago. It's no wonder that Science ships are weak in carrying out their duties.
Science boff abilities are directly affected by at least 6 maybe 7 different skill boxes in terms of how effective they are. Tactical abilities are affected by 1. An argument can be made that by buffing weapon damage via the tactical skills you buff the boff abilities but you don't actually enhance the skill, only the damage of the torp (but not the base so the extra damage added by THY should be the same) one persons THY2 is the same as another persons THY2.
Science you only need 3 points in the counters to resist most of the abilities. 6 will grant you near immunity. There are 3 (5 if you count stealth as a counter to stealth sight and subsystem repair) skills to counter all of the science abilities. Technically hull plating counters exotic damage but it also counters all other forms which is why you put points in it not because of exotic damage.
Science abilities were buffed to disgusting levels by tactical captains for one shot uber AoE damage. This was addressed by nerfing the abilities so nothing but a tactical captain can get good damage out of it and even then why do that when lolz, cannons ftw.
Now is about time when people chirp up with science isn't about DPS. Not entirely, but your skills have to be equal to what you give up in damage in a damage centric game. Most people play PvE and not PvP. science skills have an almost laughable effect in PvE as everything has huge shields so shield drains are not effective. All power in weapons, 6 beams and FAW is better than using a full aux high flow caps charged particle burst and has more uses. Disables do very little, sensor abilities are nice but not needed and have you even tried to us GW on spheres?
PvP science abilities are ok. Little issue with holds being countered by all escorts with APO or EptE and once again with the 1:2 ratio of resist skills to buff skills.
Sensor ANALYSIS (not sensor scan or whatever else you people keep calling it) is a nice little buff and I like the idea but the reality is that it's too slow on build up when tacscorts go, lolz, cannons and blast things away in less than a minute. Couple this with how it gets removed when you change targets means that it's next to useless if you need to heal an ally or use a skill on another enemy even for a second.
6 weapon slots as opposed to 8 for cruisers and 7 for escorts. What makes up for that? The above sensor analysis and subsystem targetting. The latter is OK but it forces you into beams to use it which then means you must either have a largely useless beam weapon or balance power between aux and weapons on a regular basis to use all beams.
Oh and saying the vesta is a 10k DPS science ship, sure but it's the exception to the rule, not the rule. To put it another way, there are some female devs therefore there's no problem with games being sexist. Besides the vesta was designed to output more damage than regular science ships and make money off the woeful lack of punch science ships have rather than fixing them.
And to really demonstrate how bad science abilities are, do you think science is for healing? Would it surprise you to know heals make up only 16% of science abilities. Also there is only 1 resist ability too it's just they are all low ranking abilities that everyone can use them and anything else people can use is pointless.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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