So far a lot of people saying nothing. If you really think the Nebula is okay and that I'm being subjectively emotional, then stop being subjectively emotional and explain what the Nebula does better than other ships.
For those less versed in Star Trek, the "Advanced Research Vessel" is a Nebula-class ship. I could point out that in Trek lore, the Nebula is considered to be in the same weight and armament class as the Galaxy...
In other words, you are now applying canon statistics and comparisons. Okay, good so far.
Take a cruiser. Remove 25% of the firepower. Remove 25% of the hull durability. Change the inarguably useful engineer Commander to a questionable science Commander. And then, to make it fair and reasonable, give it sensor analysis: An ability that requires a full minute of engaging the same target to reach its full potential. And even then all it's doing is making up for your missing weapons. And increase the turn rate a bit...
Now remove 25% firepower and hull durability.
Lt Tac, 1 tac console. Hull points now at 33,000.
Cmdr station now Science. (The Lt Sci is now a Lt Eng)
Sensor analysis.
Oh, and let's give it a hangar, just like your Corsair example.
Momaw's New Fleet Nebula-class XX TRIBBLE
XX
X XXXX 5/4/1 console setup
33,000 base hull
Sensor analysis (subsyst targeting too?)
And this is what you propose? I'd rather take the existing Nebula, please and thanks.
Basically, why is the Nebula all costs and downsides. What exactly is it buying by giving up so much? As far as I can tell: Nothing.
Buff Nebula.
You're giving up a lot of high level science abilities in order to turn into a very durable starship.
Take a look at this build. It has been set up for team healing, and can perform disables as a side job. VM3/PSW console can be replaced with GW3/Theta console for some movement disables.
I've seen the man who wrote this build in action. It is quite an effective healer, and is in the same playing field as Sci Odysseys in terms of team healing.
What is the ship giving up? Perhaps some damage potential, but even with 2 tactical consoles you can set up the ship for PvE and have some decent damage output. Gravwell 3, Eject warp plasma, TT, APB, Theta console... all of these can be used to deal damage either through the ship's six weapons slots or via exotic/burn damage.
I'm even tempted to buy myself a Fleet Nebula and prove that this ship is more than capable at spitting out damage, even if it isn't the vessel's strong point.
To answer your question, "what does the Nebula do better?"; It's a low cost starship that can turn better than an Odyssey and perform team healing that is close to, if not exceeding, a Science Odyssey set up for team heals. Alternatively, it can be switched into a more dangerous version of the Fleet Galaxy, using the right combination of consoles, doffs and boff abilities.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
OK.. based on Star Trek Canon the Nebula is (science or not) an outright equal to the Galaxy Class ship. It's built on a modified Galaxy Hull with a saucer mount noticeably different BUT the same saucer as a Galaxy .
The Nebula class's Science abilities are part of an extra added on Missions Module, so Technically this ship IS a Galaxy class ship .
Nebula class ships should by default be as armed and equipped as a Galaxy class Starship
As an Aside one variant of the Nebula is not even equipped with a science Mission module but instead has expanded combat capability so the ship can be used as a Tactical Assault Cruiser. If we went full Canon the Nebula should be available in 3 types or as a 5k Zen pack .
That version can and does carry Cannons and can basically tear a Galor class ship to shreds in seconds. (watch the episode with the Nebula ) That was a Tactical Assault Variant.
OK.. based on Star Trek Canon the Nebula is (science or not) an outright equal to the Galaxy Class ship. It's built on a modified Galaxy Hull with a saucer mount noticeably different BUT the same saucer as a Galaxy .
The Nebula class's Science abilities are part of an extra added on Missions Module, so Technically this ship IS a Galaxy class ship .
Nebula class ships should by default be as armed and equipped as a Galaxy class Starship
As an Aside one variant of the Nebula is not even equipped with a science Mission module but instead has expanded combat capability so the ship can be used as a Tactical Assault Cruiser. If we went full Canon the Nebula should be available in 3 types or as a 5k Zen pack .
That version can and does carry Cannons and can basically tear a Galor class ship to shreds in seconds. (watch the episode with the Nebula ) That was a Tactical Assault Variant.
well, not so much agreeing with the first part, but the second part is an awesome idea. after all the model doesn't even feature impulse engine...lol
if we take the same episode you mentioned the enterprise was superior, otherwise it would have been foolish to send only the enterprise after the nebula.
if we take that episode further as a basis for the combat strength of the ship, it may be a specialized ship for long range torpedo attacks and only average close combat abilitys. I think it is data, who mentioned the greater range of its weapons compared to a galor.
the 3 type idea is really great. i see each variant with a universal commander and 4/3 weapon slots. ltd cmdr engi; ltd tac; ensign engi; ltd science
and maybe: 4/3/3 console setup for engi variant...3/4/3 for the science and 3/3/4 the tac variant
the universal consoles is not so easy...should rewatch some episodes that feature the ship.
for the tac console however i think something that buffs torpedos would be appropriate. passive firerate increase for torpedos maybe?
also a 180? photon torpedo launcher would be cool.
the science version could feature the special torpedo that data used to uncover the cloaked romulan ships. maybe somthing that decloaks all cloaked ships 5-7 km around the ship and fires a torpedo at them automatically, however with only if the 180? torpedo is equipped (similar to the wing cannon of the andorian ship)...if there are no cloaked ships a single torpedo is fired at each enemy.
and the engi version could feature a "healing module" that essentially does what HE1 does...but a little weaker maybe.
or the module could be a support vessel...
i could even see a tac console that essentially is what the veteran ship has...this phaser lotus thing.
OK.. based on Star Trek Canon the Nebula is (science or not) an outright equal to the Galaxy Class ship. It's built on a modified Galaxy Hull with a saucer mount noticeably different BUT the same saucer as a Galaxy .
The Nebula class's Science abilities are part of an extra added on Missions Module, so Technically this ship IS a Galaxy class ship .
Nebula class ships should by default be as armed and equipped as a Galaxy class Starship
Actually if you read the tech manuals you'll see the Neb is about 3/4 of the mass of a Galaxy: Galaxy 4.5 million tons, Neb 3.3 million. The Neb is 442 meters long (beam of 318) and the Galaxy is 642 meters long (beam of 463) - notice the Neb's width is about 150 meters narrower; meaning a much smaller saucer.
Also, the Galaxy uses 12 Type 10 phaser arrays while the Neb has 10 Type 8 arrays. While I can't rationalize the difference between a Type 10 and Type 8 I assume it has to be a meaningful amount.
So while the Neb might look like a Galaxy without a neck it's actually smaller and carries less, and weaker, weapons.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
thing is, end game in sto, both would be totally refit for mk12 systems.
Yeah, but STO's not following Tech manual specs - thus a Galaxy gets 8 total slots rather then 14. But even then you could assume the difference between 6 and 8 slots in the game is pretending to make up for the actual difference in firepower between the two ships in canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
also, no need for sto to follow the tech manual, since even forllowing the ships own supposed refit cycles, any of thes ships that survived, the dominion war or where build after, would be built to the recent spec.
Even then, STO is 30 years past Nemesis. A Galaxy is 45 years old in this timeline and might have been refit 5-10 times by now - as would a Nebual. Still, we need to assume that even with Refits there's a point where newer ships are just better. AKA TOS movie Connie Refit versus Excelsior.
All I'm simply saying above is that from a canon perspective alone, the Neb is smaller and weaker then a Galaxy. From a game perspective it is as well. I don't see that as a bad thing - it's probably the most canon thing in this game.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
excel had double the volume to play with compared to the Connie. as far as physics & a space ship fight goes, that means twice as good.
If that were true then the Defiant must be the worst "warship" Starfleet ever created - as it has about half the mass of a Connie.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
i wouldn't attempt to give any ship a certain definition or classification based on naval warfare...
the writers thought DS9 could use a ship, i couldn't be too large, but should be larger than a runabout...so the defiant was born.
not of a tactical reason or what...it just fitted the story and everything the ship could do was plot dependent.
one episode a bug ship was a serious thread, the other day it was cannon fodder
going down the road of which ship is stronger than the other is leading nowhere, since there never was a clear statement for no ship. the specifications are made up and the implementation of one new technology meant it was better...for one episode.
depends on your source, since the defiant's size was all over the place.
given the models in game, the defiant may have mass advantage.
straight up 1 vs 1 fight...
with equal level tech...
no plot armor or other script elements keeping it alive...
in open space...
a defiant's fate would be sealed the moment it let the fight get within visual range.
beyond that, its going to be much more able to manoeuvre and employ ecm to escape.
a prometheus or an akira, would just eat it alive, let alone an excel or nebula.
in a fleet a capital ship-of-the-line, it is not, it couldnt be. a support ship acting as a screen & adding fire support, sure.
and yea, pick any current gen kdf ship of equal or greater mass, and a defiant's chance of survival, drops off in the same or greater degree than against another fed ship.
since kdf engineers didnt have to suffer the hubris of the federations power puff peace brigade.
-edit- actually, like i said in the 'bops need a buff thread, we could get some inference to their relative mass from the devs.
computePolysetVolume in maya would give the mesh volumes, and, providing the ships are vaguely canonically scaled that would provide inference of the relative masses of the ships ingame.
I'm not entirely certain what direction this conversation has gone.
The OP's premise is that, in canon, "the Nebula is considered to be in the same weight and armament class as the Galaxy." This point is taken up by a few others in the thread as well. I counter that in canon the Nebula is substantially smaller, both in mass and size, and that it uses inferior weapons - as discussed in the Tech manuals and on Memory Alpha.
You then tell me that both ships can use MK XII gear - which is accurate since they are both end-game ships. I then say it's not unreasonable for one to be a Science Vessel rather then both Cruisers, as that helps offset the canon differences between the two ships. I am implying that since the Nebula is offensively weaker then the Galaxy in canon it makes sense that the Sci Nebula is offensively weaker then the Galaxy - something that could not happen in the game if they were both end-game Cruisers.
You then tell me the ships don't need to follow the Tech Manuals as Refit cycles would make all the ships roughly equal after the Dominion War. To which I counter that having the same tech-level of gear doesn't make two ships equal. I give a Refit Connie versus a new Excelsior as my example.
To that you reply that the Excelsior would win because it's bigger then the Connie. To which I reply that the Defiant is nearly half the size of the Connie - clearly imply that the Defiant is much more powerful due to it being modern rather then being larger, and thus size isn't the determining factor, but rather the difference in modern design and technology.
And I'm really not sure where you want after that.
So I'll just reaffirm my original point. In canon the Neb is offensively weaker then the Galaxy. In the game it is offensively weaker as well - but in the game it has access to many Science and Engineering abilities that make it as powerful. IE, it's an equal end-game ship due to its abilities rather its pew-pew.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I think the "same weight and armament" argument means that the Nebula's saucer is indeed that of a Galaxy and such assumes that it can fit the same weapons as it's sister class. Though the Nebula is to the Galaxy what the Miranda is to the Constitution - it's missing the entire stardrive section and as such misses out many weapon systems and reserves. Both Nebula ad Miranda compensate by being able to slot the mission pod which can improve whatever skill is necessary for the task at hand but they will never be en-par with their larger brethren - but they are cheaper and more easily to produce and maintain essentially becoming the workhorses of Starfleet operation.
The Nebula is one tough ship but it is not a substitute for a Galaxy. I think the game reflects that well, it is more durable than other science vessels has a very neat BOFF layout that is even universal to a certain degree to reflect the mission pod choice (yes, it's more tac heavy than the Gal if you wish. But the Gal is 1. badly depicted in STO and 2. has more weapon slots) and I certainly get one once my casual grind grants me 2000 Zen to spend
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
So I'll just reaffirm my original point. In canon the Neb is offensively weaker then the Galaxy. In the game it is offensively weaker as well - but in the game it has access to many Science and Engineering abilities that make it as powerful. IE, it's an equal end-game ship due to its abilities rather its pew-pew.
1.) Nebula has fewer guns and more of its slots are devoted to science than engineering.
2.) In this game, all ships (except Birds of Prey) have the same number of ability slots they can use.
3.) The science that works best and most reliably are heals and buffs, which are not unique to science; the engineering-heavy cruisers can do this job.
4.) Offensive science abilities are special application, have long cooldowns, have irrelevant magnitudes, or are in general not as useful as firepower for the purpose of completing game content.
6.) Nebula surrenders significant firepower for no substantive gain in performance compared to cruisers, especially cruisers which have some capacity to use science abilities, therefore
1.) Nebula has fewer guns and more of its slots are devoted to science than engineering.
The Neb has 2 fewer weapon slots then a Cruiser but it can have equal Sci to Eng slots if it wishes due to its Universal Boff in that manner.
2.) In this game, all ships (except Birds of Prey) have the same number of ability slots they can use.
Generally, yes, though Consoles are really considered additional abilities, and you also have different set bonuses from gear that can change things as well - thus all ships have a different final number of abilities depending on console slots and gear
3.) The science that works best and most reliably are heals and buffs, which are not unique to science; the engineering-heavy cruisers can do this job.
Gravity Well is easily one of the most common Sci Ship abilities, and it's not a heal or a buff. And Cruisers actually have the best heals in the game, IME.
4.) Offensive science abilities are special application, have long cooldowns, have irrelevant magnitudes, or are in general not as useful as firepower for the purpose of completing game content.
The only part I agree with here is that they have less offensive firepower - due to 6 weapon slots.
6.) Nebula surrenders significant firepower for no substantive gain in performance compared to cruisers, especially cruisers which have some capacity to use science abilities, therefore
7.) Nebula is underpowered.
Both of these statements are essential saying the same thing: Neb does less pew-pew so it's inferior. I disagree with both.
Which part of this do you disagree with?
Looks like I disagreed with something in most of them.
And none of that changes the fact that the Neb is inferior within canon as well - which invalidates your whole premise that they should be equal due to canon.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
1.) Nebula has fewer guns and more of its slots are devoted to science than engineering.
2.) In this game, all ships (except Birds of Prey) have the same number of ability slots they can use.
3.) The science that works best and most reliably are heals and buffs, which are not unique to science; the engineering-heavy cruisers can do this job.
4.) Offensive science abilities are special application, have long cooldowns, have irrelevant magnitudes, or are in general not as useful as firepower for the purpose of completing game content.
6.) Nebula surrenders significant firepower for no substantive gain in performance compared to cruisers, especially cruisers which have some capacity to use science abilities, therefore
7.) Nebula is underpowered.
Now.
Which part of this do you disagree with?
To me this indicates that the Nebula would be fine if Science got a Buff. Your problem is simple, you want a Cruiser that looks like a Nebula. It's not going to happen.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
not disagreeing with your points. went on a bit of a tangents about the defient, due to how some bring it up as some sort of uber winboat warship.
the problem is, saying the neb ingame can be as good as the galaxy when it wouldnt be in canon... well, the galaxy implemented ingame is the pinacle of the game done wrong. you take everything that is wrong with boff powers, everything wrong with dhcs vs beams, and everything wrong with 'cruisers', then distill that into one ship, and you have the galaxy class as it exists in game.
Yeah, but my point isn't about comparing the in-game Neb only to the in-game Galaxy. I consider all end-game ships to be roughly equivalent due to their designs and abilities. They simply have different purposes. The argument could just as easily be about the Intrepid and the Sovereign. It's just different ships for different purposes. The Fleet Neb's job isn't to pew-pew and the Fleet Defiant's job isn't to tank, or heal, or buff, or whatever.
Essentially the OP just wants a Neb that does exactly what he wants it to do, and that's just not going to happen. They're not going to make a Neb a Cruiser - and even then, people complain all the time about how Cruisers suck, so then people would just want the Neb to be an Escort.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
is not handicapped and borderline irrelevant in end game PVE content.
The IDEAL case is for science to not suck. This would by extension and in one move fix all science ships. But as I pointed out way back on page 1, Cryptic has never shown any signs of fixing science or even admitting that it's badly broken. So: the more likely solution is to get the Nebula changed into a design that does well with the existing game mechanics such as they are.
people complain all the time about how Cruisers suck
You know who doesn't complain about their cruisers? KDF players. You know what I compared the Nebula to? A KDF cruiser.
You know who doesn't complain about their cruisers? KDF players. You know what I compared the Nebula to? A KDF cruiser.
There's probably a connection here.
You know there's a reason why KDF Cruisers are better then FED Cruiser, right? Even a Neb Cruiser will never be as good as a KDF Cruiser due to the Faction differentiation.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
You know who doesn't complain about their cruisers? KDF players. You know what I compared the Nebula to? A KDF cruiser.
There's probably a connection here.
Comparing the Nebula or any other Fed cruiser (yes, science ships are also "cruisers" ) to Klingon battlecruisers greatly misses the point, however. They have battlecruisers for a reason, Starfleet does not and that's totally fine. It's the current gamedesign that also spawns the weird assumption that every ship that doesn't feature an all out "super military tactical" layout is essentially weak and useless. Starfleets ships shouldn't feature all tactical heavy layout but aren't "weak" either and fixing these mechanics (especially the science abilities but engineering skills as well) should be more important than to plaster all sips with dps skills and consoles.
The Nebula has a pretty neat layout, actually and I have even seen builds that outdamage even some battlecruisers
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
then, you would be wrong, the ships just arent of equal value, of different situational value some are good, others are just useless.
a galaxy in an stf is the same as a man down stf. the neb being about as good as that is probably why i have only seen one in 6 months playing.
What you're describing is a failure of the STF and Gozer's design. STFS are all about pew-pew because that's what Gozer loved. 5 Cruisers will struggle. 5 Sci will struggle. 5 Escorts can breeze through. That's mission design failure, not ship failure. The mission doesn't take into account that there are other ship types in the game.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
STFs are DPS-fests and that's a failing of the STF design? So when you're playing Fleet Alert and there's like 40 ships that warp in at the same time, that's... What?
Face it. DPS is the lowest common denominator of this game in a fundamental and pervasive way.
and i suppose this gozer is responsible for designing all the rest of the games space combat too?
because its as much about dps as the stf's are.
maybe he is responsible for the love of cruisers in pvp too?
the obvious is disparity between dhc & beam damage output vs power drain his fault as well?
maybe its his fault that sci powers are all nerfed to uselessness while tac powers are lynchpins an any effective build?
yea... no. its the game design as a whole. specifically, the use of the rpg trinity.
Here I have no clue what you're talking about. I can use my Neb and do Rom Rep without any problems - solo or teamed. I can do B'tran dailies, I can do Deferi Dailies, Foundry Dailies, etc. I do this end-game stuff all the time without incident - as do thousands of others. The only end-game content where this becomes a problem is Omega Rep STFs. That should say something about the STFs.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Comments
In other words, you are now applying canon statistics and comparisons. Okay, good so far.
Okay.
Fleet Galaxy-class Exploration Cruiser Retrofit
Lt Tac, 2 Tac Consoles
Now remove 25% firepower and hull durability.
Lt Tac, 1 tac console. Hull points now at 33,000.
Cmdr station now Science. (The Lt Sci is now a Lt Eng)
Sensor analysis.
Oh, and let's give it a hangar, just like your Corsair example.
Momaw's New Fleet Nebula-class
XX
TRIBBLE
XX
X
XXXX
5/4/1 console setup
33,000 base hull
Sensor analysis (subsyst targeting too?)
And this is what you propose? I'd rather take the existing Nebula, please and thanks.
You're giving up a lot of high level science abilities in order to turn into a very durable starship.
Take a look at this build. It has been set up for team healing, and can perform disables as a side job. VM3/PSW console can be replaced with GW3/Theta console for some movement disables.
I've seen the man who wrote this build in action. It is quite an effective healer, and is in the same playing field as Sci Odysseys in terms of team healing.
What is the ship giving up? Perhaps some damage potential, but even with 2 tactical consoles you can set up the ship for PvE and have some decent damage output. Gravwell 3, Eject warp plasma, TT, APB, Theta console... all of these can be used to deal damage either through the ship's six weapons slots or via exotic/burn damage.
I'm even tempted to buy myself a Fleet Nebula and prove that this ship is more than capable at spitting out damage, even if it isn't the vessel's strong point.
To answer your question, "what does the Nebula do better?"; It's a low cost starship that can turn better than an Odyssey and perform team healing that is close to, if not exceeding, a Science Odyssey set up for team heals. Alternatively, it can be switched into a more dangerous version of the Fleet Galaxy, using the right combination of consoles, doffs and boff abilities.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
The Nebula class's Science abilities are part of an extra added on Missions Module, so Technically this ship IS a Galaxy class ship .
Nebula class ships should by default be as armed and equipped as a Galaxy class Starship
As an Aside one variant of the Nebula is not even equipped with a science Mission module but instead has expanded combat capability so the ship can be used as a Tactical Assault Cruiser. If we went full Canon the Nebula should be available in 3 types or as a 5k Zen pack .
That version can and does carry Cannons and can basically tear a Galor class ship to shreds in seconds. (watch the episode with the Nebula ) That was a Tactical Assault Variant.
well, not so much agreeing with the first part, but the second part is an awesome idea. after all the model doesn't even feature impulse engine...lol
if we take the same episode you mentioned the enterprise was superior, otherwise it would have been foolish to send only the enterprise after the nebula.
if we take that episode further as a basis for the combat strength of the ship, it may be a specialized ship for long range torpedo attacks and only average close combat abilitys. I think it is data, who mentioned the greater range of its weapons compared to a galor.
the 3 type idea is really great. i see each variant with a universal commander and 4/3 weapon slots.
ltd cmdr engi; ltd tac; ensign engi; ltd science
and maybe: 4/3/3 console setup for engi variant...3/4/3 for the science and 3/3/4 the tac variant
the universal consoles is not so easy...should rewatch some episodes that feature the ship.
for the tac console however i think something that buffs torpedos would be appropriate. passive firerate increase for torpedos maybe?
also a 180? photon torpedo launcher would be cool.
the science version could feature the special torpedo that data used to uncover the cloaked romulan ships. maybe somthing that decloaks all cloaked ships 5-7 km around the ship and fires a torpedo at them automatically, however with only if the 180? torpedo is equipped (similar to the wing cannon of the andorian ship)...if there are no cloaked ships a single torpedo is fired at each enemy.
and the engi version could feature a "healing module" that essentially does what HE1 does...but a little weaker maybe.
or the module could be a support vessel...
i could even see a tac console that essentially is what the veteran ship has...this phaser lotus thing.
Also, the Galaxy uses 12 Type 10 phaser arrays while the Neb has 10 Type 8 arrays. While I can't rationalize the difference between a Type 10 and Type 8 I assume it has to be a meaningful amount.
So while the Neb might look like a Galaxy without a neck it's actually smaller and carries less, and weaker, weapons.
All I'm simply saying above is that from a canon perspective alone, the Neb is smaller and weaker then a Galaxy. From a game perspective it is as well. I don't see that as a bad thing - it's probably the most canon thing in this game.
It is far from a bad ship. But, using it well means using a different strategy than what you use with a "sci-scort" or a cruiser.
My character Tsin'xing
the writers thought DS9 could use a ship, i couldn't be too large, but should be larger than a runabout...so the defiant was born.
not of a tactical reason or what...it just fitted the story and everything the ship could do was plot dependent.
one episode a bug ship was a serious thread, the other day it was cannon fodder
going down the road of which ship is stronger than the other is leading nowhere, since there never was a clear statement for no ship. the specifications are made up and the implementation of one new technology meant it was better...for one episode.
The OP's premise is that, in canon, "the Nebula is considered to be in the same weight and armament class as the Galaxy." This point is taken up by a few others in the thread as well. I counter that in canon the Nebula is substantially smaller, both in mass and size, and that it uses inferior weapons - as discussed in the Tech manuals and on Memory Alpha.
You then tell me that both ships can use MK XII gear - which is accurate since they are both end-game ships. I then say it's not unreasonable for one to be a Science Vessel rather then both Cruisers, as that helps offset the canon differences between the two ships. I am implying that since the Nebula is offensively weaker then the Galaxy in canon it makes sense that the Sci Nebula is offensively weaker then the Galaxy - something that could not happen in the game if they were both end-game Cruisers.
You then tell me the ships don't need to follow the Tech Manuals as Refit cycles would make all the ships roughly equal after the Dominion War. To which I counter that having the same tech-level of gear doesn't make two ships equal. I give a Refit Connie versus a new Excelsior as my example.
To that you reply that the Excelsior would win because it's bigger then the Connie. To which I reply that the Defiant is nearly half the size of the Connie - clearly imply that the Defiant is much more powerful due to it being modern rather then being larger, and thus size isn't the determining factor, but rather the difference in modern design and technology.
And I'm really not sure where you want after that.
So I'll just reaffirm my original point. In canon the Neb is offensively weaker then the Galaxy. In the game it is offensively weaker as well - but in the game it has access to many Science and Engineering abilities that make it as powerful. IE, it's an equal end-game ship due to its abilities rather its pew-pew.
The Nebula is one tough ship but it is not a substitute for a Galaxy. I think the game reflects that well, it is more durable than other science vessels has a very neat BOFF layout that is even universal to a certain degree to reflect the mission pod choice (yes, it's more tac heavy than the Gal if you wish. But the Gal is 1. badly depicted in STO and 2. has more weapon slots) and I certainly get one once my casual grind grants me 2000 Zen to spend
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1.) Nebula has fewer guns and more of its slots are devoted to science than engineering.
2.) In this game, all ships (except Birds of Prey) have the same number of ability slots they can use.
3.) The science that works best and most reliably are heals and buffs, which are not unique to science; the engineering-heavy cruisers can do this job.
4.) Offensive science abilities are special application, have long cooldowns, have irrelevant magnitudes, or are in general not as useful as firepower for the purpose of completing game content.
6.) Nebula surrenders significant firepower for no substantive gain in performance compared to cruisers, especially cruisers which have some capacity to use science abilities, therefore
7.) Nebula is underpowered.
Now.
Which part of this do you disagree with?
Generally, yes, though Consoles are really considered additional abilities, and you also have different set bonuses from gear that can change things as well - thus all ships have a different final number of abilities depending on console slots and gear
Gravity Well is easily one of the most common Sci Ship abilities, and it's not a heal or a buff. And Cruisers actually have the best heals in the game, IME.
The only part I agree with here is that they have less offensive firepower - due to 6 weapon slots.
Both of these statements are essential saying the same thing: Neb does less pew-pew so it's inferior. I disagree with both.
Looks like I disagreed with something in most of them.
And none of that changes the fact that the Neb is inferior within canon as well - which invalidates your whole premise that they should be equal due to canon.
To me this indicates that the Nebula would be fine if Science got a Buff. Your problem is simple, you want a Cruiser that looks like a Nebula. It's not going to happen.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Essentially the OP just wants a Neb that does exactly what he wants it to do, and that's just not going to happen. They're not going to make a Neb a Cruiser - and even then, people complain all the time about how Cruisers suck, so then people would just want the Neb to be an Escort.
is not handicapped and borderline irrelevant in end game PVE content.
The IDEAL case is for science to not suck. This would by extension and in one move fix all science ships. But as I pointed out way back on page 1, Cryptic has never shown any signs of fixing science or even admitting that it's badly broken. So: the more likely solution is to get the Nebula changed into a design that does well with the existing game mechanics such as they are.
You know who doesn't complain about their cruisers? KDF players. You know what I compared the Nebula to? A KDF cruiser.
There's probably a connection here.
Comparing the Nebula or any other Fed cruiser (yes, science ships are also "cruisers"
The Nebula has a pretty neat layout, actually and I have even seen builds that outdamage even some battlecruisers
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Face it. DPS is the lowest common denominator of this game in a fundamental and pervasive way.