Rule that apply to other MMO's do not apply to World of ********. Even in their slowly decaying state, they have 7.7 million customers. To put that in context, at $15.00/mo, the WoW subscriber base will have paid Activision/Blizzard the same amount of money that Perfect World Entertainment paid for Cryptic Studios in about 2 weeks.
There is a difference between a what we get in STO and what would be considered reasonable. I've played other games, so lets look at WoW as an example. Has anyone ever heard of WoW players casually talk about content droughts like it was the most natural thing in the world? .
Uh i beg to differ, I just tried Star Wars: The Old Republic and IT SUCKS! You guys don't know how lucky we have it. SWTOR is mockery of the franchise, our look, feel and well stories are better and we are getting Vorn expansions soon and who knows what Sela has in store.
So id love for you guys to try this out and once you do....Star Trek Online will seem like a dream come true.
Poor Wars Fans got screwed, fortunately we are lucky in the game aspect, when your YouTube Jedi Archives are better than the actual game...something is wrong.
You may kindly speak for yourself on that one. SWTOR is a suitable vacation and change of pace and perspective to make you both appreciate the things STO has over TOR, and consider some of the lessons that one could learn from the other.
I go to SWTOR when I get sick enough of STO's grind content and don't want to sit wheezing on the forums about it. Last time I left was a couple weeks into Season 7's launch, to co-op through the Jedi Sentinel story along with my STO fleetmate and companion, who picked a Jedi Shadow. We both found TOR's storylines enjoyable, didn't touch any endgame grind, and completed our story chapters before coming back to STO prior to LoR.
Now we're doing the same thing again as Trooper and Gunslinger, and just waiting for Season 8 to come and bring something new to the stagnation.
At the risk of turning this into another inane 'X MMO is Better' hijack: Don't just blow your nose down on other games because we're all in STO. There's plenty of things to appreciate in games like TOR when the thought of grinding KASE or CEE yet again to fill a rep slider, instead fills your stomach with dread.
The trick is appreciating what both games do right and considering what they don't, and enumerating them all is a whooooole different topic in itself! To keep it simple: STO has the superior F2P model and more playstyle variety over TOR, while TOR, for better or worse, has better-executed story missions, presentation-wise. TOR does a much better job immersing us in its world than STO and (as long as one's ignoring the slovenly blatant 'BUY NOW!' mentality for their cartel market) doesn't destroy my suspension of belief that I'm just playing a game and not having an experience. I'm keenly aware of the possibility that this is probably the fault of the fact I've clocked over 4,000 hours in STO while TOR is still relatively new for me at a couple hundred. But the fact remains: Give other games a chance!
Edit Caveat: I do not play TOR as a filthy F2Per. The money-grubbing is embarrassingly greedy. Pretty sure peoples' opinions of the game can be filtered downward depending on if they stick to F2P where they are treated like 3rd world scum, or, just buy a month's worth of time to play a class and be done with it (which I do).
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010 "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
I thank you all very much for all your replies, positive and negative feedback. Everybody is entitled to have their own opinions. The fact of the matter is is that Star Trek Online was released too early,!
Everybody says that about every MMORPG.
Everyone also says, "So much potential."
And they also say, "Need more content."
And they also say, "This is imbalanced."
And they also say, "Carebears, and PVP'ers and Crafters and Casuals, and whatever tha tmeans nya nya nya...."
Star Trek Online was a failure as a Subscription game. The Dev team was down to 20 members and secretly converting to FTP while we all sat around for over half-a-year begging for content and getting nothing.
With FTP came Lockboxes, but those Lockboxes have managed to get the Dev team to 50, have brought us a free Expansion Pack with LoR, and they have announced a new EP for next year. Those are all good things.
As far as Lockboxes being the only good stuff in the game, sorry, nope. The Rep grinds will get you the best gear in the game. The C-Store and Fleet ships are every-bit as good as the Lockbox ships. If you actually think you need a Galor, D'kora, etc to play this game you're just fooling yourself.
Without FTP there'd be no STO at all. It would have gone the way of the dodo. Sad, but true.
I agree but that still doesn't excuse the constant bug problems, the re-curring bugs that should have been squashed years ago, the launcher and stability issues once connected, the time crunch on projects do to enormous costs because of their desire to delay progress (just look at reputation and Commendation my god ! they want use to spend all our time finalizing commendations with almost no rewards in most of them and reputation and commendations both are on a per character basis, i worked hard to get to TW on my main my alts should all have the TW ability to starbases.)
What makes things worse about these systems is the amount of currency it takes to build reputation. You spend EC like a soccer mom in a mall just to get a few points and there are no alternative to getting marks or the items needed to put into these projects to max them out. Why can't we earn a decent amount of fleet/rep marks from the foundry for example?
I find World of tanks more fun right now then STO and all that game is a major pvp game.
and I try to get on to sto but get bored in 3 sec from doing the same thing again so i go play skyrim or WOT and i refuse to play neverwinter because though i dont know if it true or not i think their using STO to pay for improvements in neverwinter and are slowly trying to get people to go to neverwinter so they can close down STO like they did with city of hero's
but that just my 2 cents
I'm still having fun. Without grind, what would be the point of continuing to play after your character reaches max level? Do raids or something and hope you get that uber cool armor? I can't stand that. The players lucky enough to get the special gear in other games like that rub it in your face and often times are elitist jerks.
I like the reputation system that was added. This way, as long as I work for it, I can be on par with anybody else in the game for doing end game missions. Nobody talking smack to me and making fun of me because I don't have cool gear like them. :P
I don't like the Reputation system but what I like the least about it is the implementation of it. It would be far nicer if it were put in place alongside the old system so that you could still get the gear without doing the rep system to get it while those who have no luck can still be certain of getting it through the rep system.
They should take the SWTOR route and have the same grindy rewards for sale in the C-Store.
Right now grindy rewards are a badge of l337ness.
Fleet gear is some of the best stuff in game, but only "successful" fleets can have it locked as it is behind the fleet tier system.
People lucky enough to be in one of these fleets tell others that they "earned it."
This promotes clueless devs to make more grindy TRIBBLE "to keep the players happy."
A viscious circle.
That said, Reputation is better than the l337 fleet system and seeing they promoted it as a "personal fleet system," It should also have ALL the fleet purchaseable items in it.
I agree with a lot of the things in this thread. This game used to be very single player friendly, and let you have adventures with your crew and starship as you gallivant throughout the galaxy.Now....... it's just like every other MMO.
And I remember when we didn't get anything for 6-8 months and DStahl kept coming to the forum and promising things, but secretly most of the staff had been laid off and the rest were converting to FTP in one last-ditch effort to save the game. Is that the year the last 20 Devs were excited about the game - the point when the company was so broke they couldn't even afford paper cups in the breakroom?
Or was it right after launch and we were so angry that Jack and everyone else kept telling us to wait for the 45-day patch? You know, when Zinc quit as the Line Developer because of all the negative backlash?
When you look at the first 2 years of STO there was a lot of ups and downs there. Yeah, we got 3 FEs before PWE but we also got very long periods of nothing. It wasn't all wine and roses in the old days.
A new Expansion Pack like LoR for next year. The new FE is coming out relatively soon - and leads into Season 8 - which is primarily end-game focused.
I gotta add my two cents here...
STO WAS NOT converted to F2P because it was a Money Looser or in Dire Straights.
In actuality, it (and Cryptic in general) was the ONE THING keeping ATARI afloat for almost two years.
(proven by the fact that their own tax records pre-sale to PWE, showed this to be true.)
ATARI was THE MAIN REASON we didn't get anything new in the game for all that time.
(and the Dev's had no cups)
They refused to reinvest any extra money back into either of Cryptic's two live-games (STO & CO) and grudgingly invested only the minimum they had to, to keep NW on a somewhat level development time line.
(and Cryptic barely able to pay it's bills/payroll)
It wasn't until PWE stepped into the picture that the F2P option was decided upon.
PWE insisted that the game be converted to/in the process of, F2P before they were willing to sign the final contracts.
ATARI could have cared less about F2P, they just wanted the money from the sale to pay off a lot of their massive debt load (not all).
In fact, Cryptic was The Only Thing ATARI had, that anybody was interested in buying.
It also wasn't until after the sale was finalized, that ATARI published a Revised Tax Schedule that indicated that Cryptic had lost them money.
(and that was mainly so that they could capitalize on loopholes in the tax code to be able to keep more of the money they got from the sale.)
DStahl told us much of this a short time after it became Official that PWE were the new owners.
(and a lot of it was discovered by players of the game, searching the internet for info after the sale was announced prematurely at a PWE board meeting.)
STO has ALWAYS been a Money MAKING venture and is probably the one thing that kept Cryptic from disappearing altogether while ATARI searched for a buyer.
Thank goodness for us devout Star Trek fans/gamers.
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I agree with a lot of the things in this thread. This game used to be very single player friendly, and let you have adventures with your crew and starship as you gallivant throughout the galaxy.Now....... it's just like every other MMO.
Considering the ONLY 'team required' content is content that was stated as 'team required' when it was added (IE STFs and the various PvE content like SB24, Fleet Alerts, etc.); I fail to see how this game has become any less 'single-player' friendly. Hell, it auto groups yiou for all the above PvE content, and you're free to choose your targets, etc while playing the content; and you don't even need to say a word to a teammate.
And, if you really want, the entire Reputation setup is 100% optional. If you don't like it, by all means don't do it as there's NO PvE content (including any Elite STF - even 'Hive Onslaught' that can't be done successfully with either dropped gear, or what players put up on the Exchange.
STO is NOTHING like say WoW when it comes to real 'endgame/raid' style content that really requires a coordinated effort (and possibly some actual social skills - Re: Team communication during the raid, and the ability to coordinate/follow orders or a set strategy to take done a Boss Mob.
STO is still the most 'solo-friendly' and 'casual-friendly' MMO I've played to date. (And if you hate a REAL 'forced-grouping' style MMO, be thankful you never played vanilla EverQuest back in 1999.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
i believe the bigger issue is that we have too much fleets . Active and good players get lost inside small fleets . People that want to "play" can not find players inside there fleets and people that have fun with farming disturbing other fleets players with their actions . There should be preset fleets from system . 500 people UFP if its filled 500 people Core of engineers ... i mean there is enough organisations in ST universe :rolleyes:
Been a player since beta, and was an avid player of multiple alts. Once the reputation system was implemented. I pretty much abandoned all my alts and focused on my main alt. Rep'ing multiple alts became debilitating and too much work. Although I do like the rep system, but refuse to invest the time it takes to ramp up other alts, i.e., Doff System, Rep System, Crafting System, Quests, etc. I cringe when I think about it.
It's annoying, I normally hate posts like this "I hate STO cryptic suck" posts, but I can't actually disagree with anything you said in it. It is what it is, and I'm glad we have it - even if there are lots of things I would change about it.
Any Star Trek MMO is better than no Star Trek MMO and this one really does have its moments.
This.
Could've been better. Could be worse. I'm not paying for it anymore, so I'm more tolerant of what would otherwise be an unacceptable product and service.
Yes the rep system can be a grind if you choose to let it. Myself im never in a hurry to get the next shiny new thing I like to take my time and when you stop and think about it there's always an easier route. The omega rep system is the only one that I have to do stf's to get the marks and processors. The romulan rep system I simply went and tagged a few bunnys every day on all my alts and ran the doff missions to grow them. was this time consuming no... took only 5 minutes a day out of my game time before I knew it I had enough marks to finish the rep system and still cash them in. And when they launched the nukera rep system shortly after that the summer event came and guess what I went there with all my toons flying around getting eggs and raising birds got enough nuke marks to finish the rep system without having to do one mission on that planet. Again I ask was this hard no..I simply took a few minutes out of my day and planned my events not a grind at all.
Again I say this game can be a grind fest if you chose to let it be but keep in mind there's always another route you can take
The grind has killed this game for me. Some would argue that without it there would be nothing to do. I argue that in a MMO one should be able to make their own fun. Star Trek Online needed more sandbox elements. Though the Foundry is no replacement for an extensive and random exploration system it is an amazing tool that players have used to breath some life into the game.
Been here since day one just like the OP. Love the game, have over 30 characters. Love using the character creator to make them, BOs, RP with myself with them and others. Love customizing ships and different builds across all those characters. Grind killed all of that.. specifically.. the Rep grind. It completely kills the possibility of additional characters (because honestly, you do need those Rep abilities). Hell I couldn't even get past T4 on one character. The Fleet Projects are even worse, though mitigated by the fact you can purchase most things on a Fleet that does have the immense pool of members required to make such a grind bearable without having to leave your Fleet.
This beautiful game has gone down a dark road littered with dailies, Reputation, and other such grinds that keep a person enslaved to the game. Not enjoying it as they should.
I'll be keeping an eye on the Developer state of the game letters and Q&As in the hope that these grinds are fixed. Until then, boldly go lads.
"You hurt me long ago; my wounds bled for years. Now you are back, but I am not the same."
Ive been offline and not playing for a considerable amount of time, I enjoyed this game when I first signed up - thought I could really get into it. As I say tried to sign back in yesterday after an enforced lay off, fekkin nightmare. Arc- who the hell are they? then a two hour update, then finally I get to sign in and start playing-nope the whole thing crashes and Im back to square one. This game had so much promise but it seems that revenue streams have once again shafted the user. Pity, it had a lot of promise
Comments
Yes. All the time.
You may kindly speak for yourself on that one.
I go to SWTOR when I get sick enough of STO's grind content and don't want to sit wheezing on the forums about it. Last time I left was a couple weeks into Season 7's launch, to co-op through the Jedi Sentinel story along with my STO fleetmate and companion, who picked a Jedi Shadow. We both found TOR's storylines enjoyable, didn't touch any endgame grind, and completed our story chapters before coming back to STO prior to LoR.
Now we're doing the same thing again as Trooper and Gunslinger, and just waiting for Season 8 to come and bring something new to the stagnation.
At the risk of turning this into another inane 'X MMO is Better' hijack: Don't just blow your nose down on other games because we're all in STO. There's plenty of things to appreciate in games like TOR when the thought of grinding KASE or CEE yet again to fill a rep slider, instead fills your stomach with dread.
The trick is appreciating what both games do right and considering what they don't, and enumerating them all is a whooooole different topic in itself! To keep it simple: STO has the superior F2P model and more playstyle variety over TOR, while TOR, for better or worse, has better-executed story missions, presentation-wise. TOR does a much better job immersing us in its world than STO and (as long as one's ignoring the slovenly blatant 'BUY NOW!' mentality for their cartel market) doesn't destroy my suspension of belief that I'm just playing a game and not having an experience. I'm keenly aware of the possibility that this is probably the fault of the fact I've clocked over 4,000 hours in STO while TOR is still relatively new for me at a couple hundred. But the fact remains: Give other games a chance!
Edit Caveat: I do not play TOR as a filthy F2Per. The money-grubbing is embarrassingly greedy. Pretty sure peoples' opinions of the game can be filtered downward depending on if they stick to F2P where they are treated like 3rd world scum, or, just buy a month's worth of time to play a class and be done with it (which I do).
The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"
Everybody says that about every MMORPG.
Everyone also says, "So much potential."
And they also say, "Need more content."
And they also say, "This is imbalanced."
And they also say, "Carebears, and PVP'ers and Crafters and Casuals, and whatever tha tmeans nya nya nya...."
I agree but that still doesn't excuse the constant bug problems, the re-curring bugs that should have been squashed years ago, the launcher and stability issues once connected, the time crunch on projects do to enormous costs because of their desire to delay progress (just look at reputation and Commendation my god ! they want use to spend all our time finalizing commendations with almost no rewards in most of them and reputation and commendations both are on a per character basis, i worked hard to get to TW on my main my alts should all have the TW ability to starbases.)
What makes things worse about these systems is the amount of currency it takes to build reputation. You spend EC like a soccer mom in a mall just to get a few points and there are no alternative to getting marks or the items needed to put into these projects to max them out. Why can't we earn a decent amount of fleet/rep marks from the foundry for example?
and I try to get on to sto but get bored in 3 sec from doing the same thing again so i go play skyrim or WOT and i refuse to play neverwinter because though i dont know if it true or not i think their using STO to pay for improvements in neverwinter and are slowly trying to get people to go to neverwinter so they can close down STO like they did with city of hero's
but that just my 2 cents
I like the reputation system that was added. This way, as long as I work for it, I can be on par with anybody else in the game for doing end game missions. Nobody talking smack to me and making fun of me because I don't have cool gear like them. :P
Right now grindy rewards are a badge of l337ness.
Fleet gear is some of the best stuff in game, but only "successful" fleets can have it locked as it is behind the fleet tier system.
People lucky enough to be in one of these fleets tell others that they "earned it."
This promotes clueless devs to make more grindy TRIBBLE "to keep the players happy."
A viscious circle.
That said, Reputation is better than the l337 fleet system and seeing they promoted it as a "personal fleet system," It should also have ALL the fleet purchaseable items in it.
I gotta add my two cents here...
STO WAS NOT converted to F2P because it was a Money Looser or in Dire Straights.
In actuality, it (and Cryptic in general) was the ONE THING keeping ATARI afloat for almost two years.
(proven by the fact that their own tax records pre-sale to PWE, showed this to be true.)
ATARI was THE MAIN REASON we didn't get anything new in the game for all that time.
(and the Dev's had no cups)
They refused to reinvest any extra money back into either of Cryptic's two live-games (STO & CO) and grudgingly invested only the minimum they had to, to keep NW on a somewhat level development time line.
(and Cryptic barely able to pay it's bills/payroll)
It wasn't until PWE stepped into the picture that the F2P option was decided upon.
PWE insisted that the game be converted to/in the process of, F2P before they were willing to sign the final contracts.
ATARI could have cared less about F2P, they just wanted the money from the sale to pay off a lot of their massive debt load (not all).
In fact, Cryptic was The Only Thing ATARI had, that anybody was interested in buying.
It also wasn't until after the sale was finalized, that ATARI published a Revised Tax Schedule that indicated that Cryptic had lost them money.
(and that was mainly so that they could capitalize on loopholes in the tax code to be able to keep more of the money they got from the sale.)
DStahl told us much of this a short time after it became Official that PWE were the new owners.
(and a lot of it was discovered by players of the game, searching the internet for info after the sale was announced prematurely at a PWE board meeting.)
STO has ALWAYS been a Money MAKING venture and is probably the one thing that kept Cryptic from disappearing altogether while ATARI searched for a buyer.
Thank goodness for us devout Star Trek fans/gamers.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Considering the ONLY 'team required' content is content that was stated as 'team required' when it was added (IE STFs and the various PvE content like SB24, Fleet Alerts, etc.); I fail to see how this game has become any less 'single-player' friendly. Hell, it auto groups yiou for all the above PvE content, and you're free to choose your targets, etc while playing the content; and you don't even need to say a word to a teammate.
And, if you really want, the entire Reputation setup is 100% optional. If you don't like it, by all means don't do it as there's NO PvE content (including any Elite STF - even 'Hive Onslaught' that can't be done successfully with either dropped gear, or what players put up on the Exchange.
STO is NOTHING like say WoW when it comes to real 'endgame/raid' style content that really requires a coordinated effort (and possibly some actual social skills - Re: Team communication during the raid, and the ability to coordinate/follow orders or a set strategy to take done a Boss Mob.
STO is still the most 'solo-friendly' and 'casual-friendly' MMO I've played to date. (And if you hate a REAL 'forced-grouping' style MMO, be thankful you never played vanilla EverQuest back in 1999.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
This.
Could've been better. Could be worse. I'm not paying for it anymore, so I'm more tolerant of what would otherwise be an unacceptable product and service.
Again I say this game can be a grind fest if you chose to let it be but keep in mind there's always another route you can take
Been here since day one just like the OP. Love the game, have over 30 characters. Love using the character creator to make them, BOs, RP with myself with them and others. Love customizing ships and different builds across all those characters. Grind killed all of that.. specifically.. the Rep grind. It completely kills the possibility of additional characters (because honestly, you do need those Rep abilities). Hell I couldn't even get past T4 on one character. The Fleet Projects are even worse, though mitigated by the fact you can purchase most things on a Fleet that does have the immense pool of members required to make such a grind bearable without having to leave your Fleet.
This beautiful game has gone down a dark road littered with dailies, Reputation, and other such grinds that keep a person enslaved to the game. Not enjoying it as they should.
I'll be keeping an eye on the Developer state of the game letters and Q&As in the hope that these grinds are fixed. Until then, boldly go lads.