You are a skilled veteran PvPer and yet in an Arena match 5 vs 2 lopsided Arena match you guys spawncamp, understood as a way to get it over quicker, I can understand that, but then you spam AMS consoles. Why? It doesn't speed up the match, it just seems to add insult to injury.
Hi mate. Yes I recall the match it was this evening.
I like pugging because it levels the playing-field a bit. The group I was in was a pug group, so its not really something I am responsible for.
Also, please try and recall if you can remember that I was in a D'Kora and as soon as I realised that your team was short I flew to the center of the map. But yes we did fly towards you at the start and the fight progressed near your spawn point.
After the match I zone messaged "gg thx for staying"
Also, I do not use AMS. If you want I have shared my build via gateway.
Yes, I understand. I saw how it went in the next few matches. I enjoy a good PuG match as well, but they are harder to find these days, lol.
I used to team with Cap Horizon, sheesh, probably a year ago now. We had some good matches though.
I joined Boot Camp in Nov 2012 in the hope's that I would get some insight into how to PvP properly, as at the time I was running all kinds of p2w and other items that where just not right nor where they working. The very first class I attended I learnt so much that I didn't know, it blew my mind. Almost immediately after that class my game changed I went from wanting to PvP but feeling frustrated because I almost always got trashed to having confidence in myself and my abilities and I started to have fun. I am proud to be a member of the boot camp it has given me so much more then just knowledge, the friendships I have made and the community I belong to are the best I have met in my 20yrs gaming. All the boot camp has ever tried to do is help those that wanted to get into PvP make the transition easily, not everyone agrees with the way PvP is played and that is the essence of boot camp a neutral place for the community to discuss what is fair and not fair and what abilities the community feels is broken and which aren't. The coach's in my experience have never promoted the use of exploits and as far as behavior even the best personalities can turn negative when trolled. Coming together as a community and having an enjoyable time PvPing is why I will always stand behind and support PvPBC.
Yes, I understand. I saw how it went in the next few matches. I enjoy a good PuG match as well, but they are harder to find these days, lol.
I used to team with Cap Horizon, sheesh, probably a year ago now. We had some good matches though.
Yes we did. And as I believe it the next one you boys gave us a whipping
It's good what PVP BootCamp does, introducing new players to pvp, and teaching them the basics.
I wish you the best of luck!
Now my morality probably doesn't meet your requirements, however, i'd love to take a look at your syllabus and offer any advice.
I'm the guy that uses unconventional builds, and don't fall to the normal. I also don't believe in "No-BS" TRIBBLE, it's in the game, it's ready to be used. Think Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.
Hey Drk, is it too late to offer myself as a possible coach? I've heard good things about boot camp and what it teaches, and I was hoping to offer my insights into general healing builds/tactics, with an emphasis on pug healing.
I'm on a semi-restricted schedule, but if the coaching sessions' times work out I'd be happy to be a coach! (Can you point me to a schedule of the sessions?)
My handle is @renimalt. I look forward to hearing from you!
(If you'd like to see the type of information I can offer, check my build write-up here. It's a little old, but I think it's a fairly good example of the sort of things I can teach.)
It's good what PVP BootCamp does, introducing new players to pvp, and teaching them the basics.
I wish you the best of luck!
Now my morality probably doesn't meet your requirements, however, i'd love to take a look at your syllabus and offer any advice.
You are welcome to drop by Boot Camp anytime mate. Its open to all. Just message me and I will put you in touch with the folks that do the curriculum.
Hey Drk, is it too late to offer myself as a possible coach? I've heard good things about boot camp and what it teaches, and I was hoping to offer my insights into general healing builds/tactics, with an emphasis on pug healing.
I'm on a semi-restricted schedule, but if the coaching sessions' times work out I'd be happy to be a coach! (Can you point me to a schedule of the sessions?)
My handle is @renimalt. I look forward to hearing from you!
(If you'd like to see the type of information I can offer, check my build write-up here. It's a little old, but I think it's a fairly good example of the sort of things I can teach.)
We are always looking for new coaches to support us. Thank you Renimalt. I will forward this to the necessary VA's
This thread is full of reasons why PVP Boot Camp didnt work.
Lets start with the gauche 'Boot Camp' title that would have served the greater community better by being names a more trek fan frienddly 'PVP Academy'. Few people here want to go to boot camp, and be barked at, spit on, torture, hazed, or whatever associations we might have with the concept, but most of us like trek, and we would go to a PVP Academy. Minutae perhaps, but 'Boot Camp' is the leading reason I didnt go.
Then after reading the scant forums and hearing reports on the quality of 'teraching' there, I realized that I didnt have anything to learn. I dont need a ham fisted spacebar keybind, I know how to pin a target, I know how to set up my hud and game settings. I know more then I could learn.
And then I heard it was just full of bickering and arguments, probably ego driven. That happens.
Calling out fleets like Sad Pandas, TSI, TRH, Inner Circle, isnt going to work. The community is so small, and most of these fleets are fueding with eachother, and trying to drag as many players into the squabbling and accusations as they can. None of them wasnt to concede that they are not as good of players, so they accuse one another of cheating, do their best to convince the community it is true, until now you cant be in certain premades without someone complaining about cheating and warping out. Fleets are encouraging players to do this, it cancerous. The community is too small.
Or you have top fleets that are disenchanted with the game, talking about power creep, pay to win, cheeze etc. There really is no cheeze, there is an evolving game, and some people just refuse to adapt to it. There is nothing on any list of 'cheeze' thatI cant overcome with the right composition, or swappable boffs, etc. Im not going to get into it right now.
And P2W is a fact of life, anywhere. If you cant invest a bit into the game, stop playing cuz it wont be here long if people dont pay. Dont complain that someone beat you because they bought gear. Get over it. I pay to win every moment of my life outside Sto, we all do - why should sto be different - it isnt a charity for star trek fans.
I cant be bothered to instruct because if I did, it would have to be My Way, which is to embrace, and be prepared to use or counter anything the game can throw at you. - Ask around. I might not always run the most common meta builds, but I win games. Season 7 pets forced me to respec the toons into ways to counter the evolution. I adapted.
If this game goes the way I think we all hope it will there will be no way outside convoluted invitational tournaments that we can govern what skills are allowed or honorable in pvp.
Once the community stops ankle biting one another, and embraces the evolving game, I might get involved. Until then, I cant be bothered.
This thread is full of reasons why PVP Boot Camp didnt work.
Lets start with the gauche 'Boot Camp' title that would have served the greater community better by being names a more trek fan frienddly 'PVP Academy'. Few people here want to go to boot camp, and be barked at, spit on, torture, hazed, or whatever associations we might have with the concept, but most of us like trek, and we would go to a PVP Academy. Minutae perhaps, but 'Boot Camp' is the leading reason I didnt go.
Then after reading the scant forums and hearing reports on the quality of 'teraching' there, I realized that I didnt have anything to learn. I dont need a ham fisted spacebar keybind, I know how to pin a target, I know how to set up my hud and game settings. I know more then I could learn.
And then I heard it was just full of bickering and arguments, probably ego driven. That happens.
Calling out fleets like Sad Pandas, TSI, TRH, Inner Circle, isnt going to work. The community is so small, and most of these fleets are fueding with eachother, and trying to drag as many players into the squabbling and accusations as they can. None of them wasnt to concede that they are not as good of players, so they accuse one another of cheating, do their best to convince the community it is true, until now you cant be in certain premades without someone complaining about cheating and warping out. Fleets are encouraging players to do this, it cancerous. The community is too small.
Or you have top fleets that are disenchanted with the game, talking about power creep, pay to win, cheeze etc. There really is no cheeze, there is an evolving game, and some people just refuse to adapt to it. There is nothing on any list of 'cheeze' thatI cant overcome with the right composition, or swappable boffs, etc. Im not going to get into it right now.
And P2W is a fact of life, anywhere. If you cant invest a bit into the game, stop playing cuz it wont be here long if people dont pay. Dont complain that someone beat you because they bought gear. Get over it. I pay to win every moment of my life outside Sto, we all do - why should sto be different - it isnt a charity for star trek fans.
I cant be bothered to instruct because if I did, it would have to be My Way, which is to embrace, and be prepared to use or counter anything the game can throw at you. - Ask around. I might not always run the most common meta builds, but I win games. Season 7 pets forced me to respec the toons into ways to counter the evolution. I adapted.
If this game goes the way I think we all hope it will there will be no way outside convoluted invitational tournaments that we can govern what skills are allowed or honorable in pvp.
Once the community stops ankle biting one another, and embraces the evolving game, I might get involved. Until then, I cant be bothered.
Such a lovely high horse you have there.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
This thread is full of reasons why PVP Boot Camp didnt work.
Lets start with the gauche 'Boot Camp' title that would have served the greater community better by being names a more trek fan frienddly 'PVP Academy'. Few people here want to go to boot camp, and be barked at, spit on, torture, hazed, or whatever associations we might have with the concept, but most of us like trek, and we would go to a PVP Academy. Minutae perhaps, but 'Boot Camp' is the leading reason I didnt go.
Then after reading the scant forums and hearing reports on the quality of 'teraching' there, I realized that I didnt have anything to learn. I dont need a ham fisted spacebar keybind, I know how to pin a target, I know how to set up my hud and game settings. I know more then I could learn.
And then I heard it was just full of bickering and arguments, probably ego driven. That happens.
Calling out fleets like Sad Pandas, TSI, TRH, Inner Circle, isnt going to work. The community is so small, and most of these fleets are fueding with eachother, and trying to drag as many players into the squabbling and accusations as they can. None of them wasnt to concede that they are not as good of players, so they accuse one another of cheating, do their best to convince the community it is true, until now you cant be in certain premades without someone complaining about cheating and warping out. Fleets are encouraging players to do this, it cancerous. The community is too small.
Or you have top fleets that are disenchanted with the game, talking about power creep, pay to win, cheeze etc. There really is no cheeze, there is an evolving game, and some people just refuse to adapt to it. There is nothing on any list of 'cheeze' thatI cant overcome with the right composition, or swappable boffs, etc. Im not going to get into it right now.
And P2W is a fact of life, anywhere. If you cant invest a bit into the game, stop playing cuz it wont be here long if people dont pay. Dont complain that someone beat you because they bought gear. Get over it. I pay to win every moment of my life outside Sto, we all do - why should sto be different - it isnt a charity for star trek fans.
I cant be bothered to instruct because if I did, it would have to be My Way, which is to embrace, and be prepared to use or counter anything the game can throw at you. - Ask around. I might not always run the most common meta builds, but I win games. Season 7 pets forced me to respec the toons into ways to counter the evolution. I adapted.
If this game goes the way I think we all hope it will there will be no way outside convoluted invitational tournaments that we can govern what skills are allowed or honorable in pvp.
Once the community stops ankle biting one another, and embraces the evolving game, I might get involved. Until then, I cant be bothered.
Alot of what you have said has merit. I believe you are right. People do need to evolve with the game.
Evolving with the game does no nesessarily translate into people jumping on the bandwagon of known broken mechanics as we have seen, and then defending that with, "What broken stuff! Learn to play." By the devs. own admission on hundreds of occasions things just don't work as planned. As a serious pvper, do you really need me to go through the issues since Season 5? There's an entire Tribble maintenance subforum for that very purpose.
At Boot Camp the goal is to teach NEW players not to rely on that.
The emphasis is on new.
The Boot Camp sessions are designed to cater for novice players, who do have something to learn.
We are trying to move them through the stages of learning of 1.) Ignorance or "I don't know", to one of 2.) Informed Ignorance, "I know what I don't know". Only then can they start acquiring the necessary skills to reach 3.) Informed, "I know"
It never was intended, or is intended for that matter, to teach veteran players what they don't know already.
I'm curious though, when our graduates warp into arena to try and play a fair game, and they are confronted by "veteran" abuse-enmasse-brigades, what really speaks towards the problem, and not the solution?
It's rather humorous mind you. Folks will moan and groan about the ridiculous state PvP is in their minds, knowing fully well of the state of a hypothetical mechanic that can be exploited, and yet still feel justified in intentionally perpetuating the vicious circle. Do you know what the Ostrich's defense mechanism is when it sees a Lion? You guessed it - it sticks it's head in the sand. If it can't see the problem, then surely there cannot be a problem.
Also, Boot Camp did not fail. Present or past. We are ending our second season quite successful, a new magazine in the works, and more sessions lined up after that. Perhaps you would care to check your sources. But, we have many healthy projects in the pipeline - some well received others not - but that's part of the enjoyment of being involved. The only problem we do have is with coaches that committed to teach, got their rewards and are not teaching, and some malign intent to see us fail.
Honestly, I've even heard crazy, spiteful notions that some believe they can "get back" at a Cryptic by seeing this player initiative fail, or that Boot Camp is somehow trying to govern PvP!
Disagreements and bickering. G@d I hope so! That shows us that we are getting something right. I would be certainly concerned if anyone running decisions was surrounded by "yes-men"
As for the ego thing - perhaps you don't know but the coordinator serves a fixed term to prevent that sort of thing. It must be a ego thing when the VA's spend hundreds of hours building something out of free will, giving up time and in some cases real money for others, with little or no recognition or gratitude - but a whole lot of abuse.
Calling out fleets like Sad Pandas, TSI, TRH, Inner Circle, isnt going to work. The community is so small, and most of these fleets are fueding with eachother, and trying to drag as many players into the squabbling and accusations as they can.
I posted all of that in a 5 minute wait for my fare to work, pardons please if I wasnt clear
I didnt mean that any coordinator had ego issues, just that people tell me that its a lot of arguing, and I attribute that to anyones unwillingness to accede to someone elses expertise, as well as being unable to come to some kind of concensus that everyone is going to be okay with, which probably wont ever happen. My own ego would be suspect in such a forum, because I wouldnt budge from my 'deal with it' attitude of accepting all mechanics, until they are confirmed 'broken' by Cryptic(ie: BP).
As for TSI, I havent seen them stabbing at other fleets from TRIBBLE heart, but I do know that a few of their notable members have attributed their missed absence in the ques to their chagrin over the state of the game, something about 'power creep' I recall.
As for the game being broken since S5 I just cant get on board. The only thing that really stands out for me are the feedback pulse and the graviton console, the former being optimized for usefulness in Pve and thus being a bit overpowered in pvp, and the latter just being silly in the potential disable time while having no means to cleanse.
I will always be of the opinion that the games mechanics need to be embraced and adapted to. You cant just present a toybox and say 'these toys are wrong'. Each console, set piece, weapon, doff, skill, or whatever represent potential revenue generation for the game without which the game will not continue. To tell people they cant use TIF that they paid 600 lobi for is ridiculous. These things are in the game, people have paid for them to do the things they are intended to do - they arent going anywhere. You can embrace it or you can complain about it.
Finaly, I admit I dont have any experience with PVP Boot Camp myself, I only hear what peopel who have participated tell me, and I do believe there is a true potential to benefit the whole community. I am just afraid that in a community this small, grief and complaining toward gear, fleets, whatever - is cancerous. This particular body is too small to endure the damage that this behavior has caused. I think a lot of the "Top Fleets" can attest to this. - In a large enough community baseless drama would just be lauged off the forums and chats. Not the case in STO. Too many people play the 'cheating, hacks' card when they get their TRIBBLE kicked - no one wants to admit that they are simply outplayed consistantly. I can name a few players (MT, SamiK, Regulus,Toothless, Parker, nebuzgamer, Mara Jade & Bowman), who all have my number. I dont think they are cheating. - Their Gateway info tells me that most are clearly armed with the best gear they can get, but I cant begrudge them for that by crying P2W
Back on topic - I really hope that pvp boot camp is goint to be teaching players to deal with everything even if the insructors want to cling to the notion that it is broken. From what I have observed about some of the people involved I fear that PVP Bootcamp is just going to breed new complainers and people who believe that if they lose they are being cheated, especially if there is some kind of governing body dictating policies even if that body is 'termed, elected, w/e...
and Regulus, my friend. Its a high Pony. And its absolutely fabulous.
I'll be back to help soon. Was meant to turn up to the first round of these sessions but it was 4am in my time
I think I'm just burnt out by the repgrind and the "new content" (LoR) which was just wool to cover our eyes. Season 8 needs to bring balance to the game and be more of a season dedicated to PvP if Cryptic/ PWE wants to keep this paying customer.
I'll try to jump into the team speak more often from today onwards
I didnt mean that any coordinator had ego issues, just that people tell me that its a lot of arguing, and I attribute that to anyones unwillingness to accede to someone elses expertise, as well as being unable to come to some kind of concensus that everyone is going to be okay with, which probably wont ever happen. My own ego would be suspect in such a forum, because I wouldnt budge from my 'deal with it' attitude of accepting all mechanics, until they are confirmed 'broken' by Cryptic(ie: BP).
Understandable, as that's human nature in general. Sargon set a very high standard and led by example, and try as we may we have all tried to live up to what he wanted Boot Camp to be. We do disagree and debate stuff a lot, but I do not think that diehard sentiments really affect decision making all that much. Sargon was a phenomenal leader, hence why he is doing so well in real life When he left we formed the Council so we could have collective decision making and because there was so much we needed to do. I wanted Boot Camp to be more than just a place of learning for new players. I wanted it to be a place of community and friendship above all.
As for TSI, I havent seen them stabbing at other fleets from TRIBBLE heart, but I do know that a few of their notable members have attributed their missed absence in the ques to their chagrin over the state of the game, something about 'power creep' I recall.
Sorry I can't comment on this because I don't believe that I singled out anyone in particular. If I did, my apologies.
As for the game being broken since S5 I just cant get on board. The only thing that really stands out for me are the feedback pulse and the graviton console, the former being optimized for usefulness in Pve and thus being a bit overpowered in pvp, and the latter just being silly in the potential disable time while having no means to cleanse.
Sorry this time I'm unclear. The game has not been broken. Natural development takes place constantly, and in such circumstance balance of one thing can throw something elsewhere off-sync. I understand that as I myself am a developer. This just leads to issues of balance where certain equations are not performing correctly.
I will always be of the opinion that the games mechanics need to be embraced and adapted to. You cant just present a toybox and say 'these toys are wrong'. Each console, set piece, weapon, doff, skill, or whatever represent potential revenue generation for the game without which the game will not continue. To tell people they cant use TIF that they paid 600 lobi for is ridiculous. These things are in the game, people have paid for them to do the things they are intended to do - they arent going anywhere. You can embrace it or you can complain about it.
I fully agree with you. My belief is that there is TOO little on the skill tree, traits and the available captain skills and Boff skills.
Why only have 1 captain skill per level anyway? Other games have a selection of skills one can choose from allowing for more diversification.
I hope is that one day soon I will see a tournament unrestricted and with only support.
One has to think about one thing that has evolved as a negative effect of this cycle.
When one is confronted with a player who has really gone to town on their build and research and planned it to the very last iota, the mentality he/she is confronted with is that they must be "cheating" or "relying on "broken stuff". The problem is compounded by the events of the last while.
Finaly, I admit I dont have any experience with PVP Boot Camp myself, I only hear what peopel who have participated tell me, and I do believe there is a true potential to benefit the whole community. I am just afraid that in a community this small, grief and complaining toward gear, fleets, whatever - is cancerous. This particular body is too small to endure the damage that this behavior has caused. I think a lot of the "Top Fleets" can attest to this. - In a large enough community baseless drama would just be lauged off the forums and chats. Not the case in STO. Too many people play the 'cheating, hacks' card when they get their TRIBBLE kicked - no one wants to admit that they are simply outplayed consistantly. I can name a few players (MT, SamiK, Regulus,Toothless, Parker, nebuzgamer, Mara Jade & Bowman), who all have my number. I dont think they are cheating. - Their Gateway info tells me that most are clearly armed with the best gear they can get, but I cant begrudge them for that by crying P2W
All those players slice-and-dice me since Beta I believe. Am I ashamed that they do. Not really. At the time when I started I just wanted to be their friends, because that is where all the fun seemed to be. Talent is like a magnet for fun.
Boot Camp is a PvP community project. Its not a Sargon project or a drkfrontiers project. Its just your fellow pvpers in the q's trying to keep PvP afloat. Create a safe space to learn and grow, and perhaps make some new friends. If anyone is threatened by that, all I can ask is why and what on earth do they think we want to take from them?
Back on topic - I really hope that pvp boot camp is goint to be teaching players to deal with everything even if the insructors want to cling to the notion that it is broken. From what I have observed about some of the people involved I fear that PVP Bootcamp is just going to breed new complainers and people who believe that if they lose they are being cheated, especially if there is some kind of governing body dictating policies even if that body is 'termed, elected, w/e...
Boot Camp is in a state of evolving into what it needs to become to stay relevant. We have started to focus on tournaments and our own leaderboard with prizes etc, and we now have a Senate, so that we can draw more people further afield into trying PvP.
We have many ambitious ideas, and enough room for dreamer and builders.
I kinda agree with pulzzy here. You NEED to learn these these guys this game is paid for in terms of toys and ships and sadly its very much needed to stay a bit competitive.
A while,ago you had to pay for a monthly subscription or LTS to play, and yeah companies do need money in order to keep something alive. I do not condone with the way they are doing it tho but newbies must realize it.
You cant teach em to PvP and only learning afterwards in order to be competitive you need to invest quit some time and money.
Where does the ladder end? What do you want the, to achieve? They can Q up right now and hope for a full 10 man total pug/ newb team and they have their own littl competition in their own realm.
I kinda agree with pulzzy here. You NEED to learn these these guys this game is paid for in terms of toys and ships and sadly its very much needed to stay a bit competitive.
I agree that the reality is that there are some bits of equipment that are basically required to stay at the cutting edge of staying competitive - but that is not really the goal of bootcamp (staying at the cutting edge), and in my opinion should not be the goal of most of the students.
I also feel a handful of items fall into "crutch" territory, or are simply way out of balance for their opportunity cost, regardless of how much zen, dilithium or lobi they cost you.
No one is telling anyone they "can't" use an item or power (outside of tourney rules).
On the other hand, one who learns to fight and compete with less will be better for it when they have access to more.
To defend what drkfrontiers is getting at, I think the most important thing bootcamp can do is provide a solid base for the novice player.
These are players, many of whom are literally learning extremely basic mechanics many of us simply take for granted at this point.
You don't need to learn how to optimize a 5 man team around X, Y & Z TACTICS, when you don't even know how to create a simple shield distribution bind yet.
Letting the entire avalanche of potential item/powers and their combinations loose so early on, would only suffocate and drown many of them with information they don't really need at the moment.
It would also pretty much spoil them to where they might actually stunt their own player abilities in the long run by relying on crutches so early on.
Comments
Hi mate. Yes I recall the match it was this evening.
I like pugging because it levels the playing-field a bit. The group I was in was a pug group, so its not really something I am responsible for.
Also, please try and recall if you can remember that I was in a D'Kora and as soon as I realised that your team was short I flew to the center of the map. But yes we did fly towards you at the start and the fight progressed near your spawn point.
After the match I zone messaged "gg thx for staying"
Also, I do not use AMS. If you want I have shared my build via gateway.
I just have to have faith that you believe me.
I used to team with Cap Horizon, sheesh, probably a year ago now. We had some good matches though.
I joined Boot Camp in Nov 2012 in the hope's that I would get some insight into how to PvP properly, as at the time I was running all kinds of p2w and other items that where just not right nor where they working. The very first class I attended I learnt so much that I didn't know, it blew my mind. Almost immediately after that class my game changed I went from wanting to PvP but feeling frustrated because I almost always got trashed to having confidence in myself and my abilities and I started to have fun. I am proud to be a member of the boot camp it has given me so much more then just knowledge, the friendships I have made and the community I belong to are the best I have met in my 20yrs gaming. All the boot camp has ever tried to do is help those that wanted to get into PvP make the transition easily, not everyone agrees with the way PvP is played and that is the essence of boot camp a neutral place for the community to discuss what is fair and not fair and what abilities the community feels is broken and which aren't. The coach's in my experience have never promoted the use of exploits and as far as behavior even the best personalities can turn negative when trolled. Coming together as a community and having an enjoyable time PvPing is why I will always stand behind and support PvPBC.
Thnx For Everything PvP Boot Camp
Coach Kraven
~The Eleventh Order~
11thOrder Youtube
Yes we did. And as I believe it the next one you boys gave us a whipping
I wish you the best of luck!
Now my morality probably doesn't meet your requirements, however, i'd love to take a look at your syllabus and offer any advice.
I'm on a semi-restricted schedule, but if the coaching sessions' times work out I'd be happy to be a coach! (Can you point me to a schedule of the sessions?)
My handle is @renimalt. I look forward to hearing from you!
(If you'd like to see the type of information I can offer, check my build write-up here. It's a little old, but I think it's a fairly good example of the sort of things I can teach.)
You are welcome to drop by Boot Camp anytime mate. Its open to all. Just message me and I will put you in touch with the folks that do the curriculum.
We are always looking for new coaches to support us. Thank you Renimalt. I will forward this to the necessary VA's
Lets start with the gauche 'Boot Camp' title that would have served the greater community better by being names a more trek fan frienddly 'PVP Academy'. Few people here want to go to boot camp, and be barked at, spit on, torture, hazed, or whatever associations we might have with the concept, but most of us like trek, and we would go to a PVP Academy. Minutae perhaps, but 'Boot Camp' is the leading reason I didnt go.
Then after reading the scant forums and hearing reports on the quality of 'teraching' there, I realized that I didnt have anything to learn. I dont need a ham fisted spacebar keybind, I know how to pin a target, I know how to set up my hud and game settings. I know more then I could learn.
And then I heard it was just full of bickering and arguments, probably ego driven. That happens.
Calling out fleets like Sad Pandas, TSI, TRH, Inner Circle, isnt going to work. The community is so small, and most of these fleets are fueding with eachother, and trying to drag as many players into the squabbling and accusations as they can. None of them wasnt to concede that they are not as good of players, so they accuse one another of cheating, do their best to convince the community it is true, until now you cant be in certain premades without someone complaining about cheating and warping out. Fleets are encouraging players to do this, it cancerous. The community is too small.
Or you have top fleets that are disenchanted with the game, talking about power creep, pay to win, cheeze etc. There really is no cheeze, there is an evolving game, and some people just refuse to adapt to it. There is nothing on any list of 'cheeze' thatI cant overcome with the right composition, or swappable boffs, etc. Im not going to get into it right now.
And P2W is a fact of life, anywhere. If you cant invest a bit into the game, stop playing cuz it wont be here long if people dont pay. Dont complain that someone beat you because they bought gear. Get over it. I pay to win every moment of my life outside Sto, we all do - why should sto be different - it isnt a charity for star trek fans.
I cant be bothered to instruct because if I did, it would have to be My Way, which is to embrace, and be prepared to use or counter anything the game can throw at you. - Ask around. I might not always run the most common meta builds, but I win games. Season 7 pets forced me to respec the toons into ways to counter the evolution. I adapted.
If this game goes the way I think we all hope it will there will be no way outside convoluted invitational tournaments that we can govern what skills are allowed or honorable in pvp.
Once the community stops ankle biting one another, and embraces the evolving game, I might get involved. Until then, I cant be bothered.
Such a lovely high horse you have there.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
@blindsaviour
i got back from a long brake and have been looking for an excuse to start pvping properly again
On the road where the dead years run
Cold as moonlight
Terrible as the sun
Alot of what you have said has merit. I believe you are right. People do need to evolve with the game.
Evolving with the game does no nesessarily translate into people jumping on the bandwagon of known broken mechanics as we have seen, and then defending that with, "What broken stuff! Learn to play." By the devs. own admission on hundreds of occasions things just don't work as planned. As a serious pvper, do you really need me to go through the issues since Season 5? There's an entire Tribble maintenance subforum for that very purpose.
At Boot Camp the goal is to teach NEW players not to rely on that.
The emphasis is on new.
The Boot Camp sessions are designed to cater for novice players, who do have something to learn.
We are trying to move them through the stages of learning of 1.) Ignorance or "I don't know", to one of 2.) Informed Ignorance, "I know what I don't know". Only then can they start acquiring the necessary skills to reach 3.) Informed, "I know"
It never was intended, or is intended for that matter, to teach veteran players what they don't know already.
I'm curious though, when our graduates warp into arena to try and play a fair game, and they are confronted by "veteran" abuse-enmasse-brigades, what really speaks towards the problem, and not the solution?
It's rather humorous mind you. Folks will moan and groan about the ridiculous state PvP is in their minds, knowing fully well of the state of a hypothetical mechanic that can be exploited, and yet still feel justified in intentionally perpetuating the vicious circle. Do you know what the Ostrich's defense mechanism is when it sees a Lion? You guessed it - it sticks it's head in the sand. If it can't see the problem, then surely there cannot be a problem.
Also, Boot Camp did not fail. Present or past. We are ending our second season quite successful, a new magazine in the works, and more sessions lined up after that. Perhaps you would care to check your sources. But, we have many healthy projects in the pipeline - some well received others not - but that's part of the enjoyment of being involved. The only problem we do have is with coaches that committed to teach, got their rewards and are not teaching, and some malign intent to see us fail.
Honestly, I've even heard crazy, spiteful notions that some believe they can "get back" at a Cryptic by seeing this player initiative fail, or that Boot Camp is somehow trying to govern PvP!
Disagreements and bickering. G@d I hope so! That shows us that we are getting something right. I would be certainly concerned if anyone running decisions was surrounded by "yes-men"
As for the ego thing - perhaps you don't know but the coordinator serves a fixed term to prevent that sort of thing. It must be a ego thing when the VA's spend hundreds of hours building something out of free will, giving up time and in some cases real money for others, with little or no recognition or gratitude - but a whole lot of abuse.
hey TSI did no such thing! :P
Do you even Science Bro?
I didnt mean that any coordinator had ego issues, just that people tell me that its a lot of arguing, and I attribute that to anyones unwillingness to accede to someone elses expertise, as well as being unable to come to some kind of concensus that everyone is going to be okay with, which probably wont ever happen. My own ego would be suspect in such a forum, because I wouldnt budge from my 'deal with it' attitude of accepting all mechanics, until they are confirmed 'broken' by Cryptic(ie: BP).
As for TSI, I havent seen them stabbing at other fleets from TRIBBLE heart, but I do know that a few of their notable members have attributed their missed absence in the ques to their chagrin over the state of the game, something about 'power creep' I recall.
As for the game being broken since S5 I just cant get on board. The only thing that really stands out for me are the feedback pulse and the graviton console, the former being optimized for usefulness in Pve and thus being a bit overpowered in pvp, and the latter just being silly in the potential disable time while having no means to cleanse.
I will always be of the opinion that the games mechanics need to be embraced and adapted to. You cant just present a toybox and say 'these toys are wrong'. Each console, set piece, weapon, doff, skill, or whatever represent potential revenue generation for the game without which the game will not continue. To tell people they cant use TIF that they paid 600 lobi for is ridiculous. These things are in the game, people have paid for them to do the things they are intended to do - they arent going anywhere. You can embrace it or you can complain about it.
Finaly, I admit I dont have any experience with PVP Boot Camp myself, I only hear what peopel who have participated tell me, and I do believe there is a true potential to benefit the whole community. I am just afraid that in a community this small, grief and complaining toward gear, fleets, whatever - is cancerous. This particular body is too small to endure the damage that this behavior has caused. I think a lot of the "Top Fleets" can attest to this. - In a large enough community baseless drama would just be lauged off the forums and chats. Not the case in STO. Too many people play the 'cheating, hacks' card when they get their TRIBBLE kicked - no one wants to admit that they are simply outplayed consistantly. I can name a few players (MT, SamiK, Regulus,Toothless, Parker, nebuzgamer, Mara Jade & Bowman), who all have my number. I dont think they are cheating. - Their Gateway info tells me that most are clearly armed with the best gear they can get, but I cant begrudge them for that by crying P2W
Back on topic - I really hope that pvp boot camp is goint to be teaching players to deal with everything even if the insructors want to cling to the notion that it is broken. From what I have observed about some of the people involved I fear that PVP Bootcamp is just going to breed new complainers and people who believe that if they lose they are being cheated, especially if there is some kind of governing body dictating policies even if that body is 'termed, elected, w/e...
and Regulus, my friend. Its a high Pony. And its absolutely fabulous.
I think I'm just burnt out by the repgrind and the "new content" (LoR) which was just wool to cover our eyes. Season 8 needs to bring balance to the game and be more of a season dedicated to PvP if Cryptic/ PWE wants to keep this paying customer.
I'll try to jump into the team speak more often from today onwards
Sure thing mate and please don't think I was attacking you in anyway.
Understandable, as that's human nature in general. Sargon set a very high standard and led by example, and try as we may we have all tried to live up to what he wanted Boot Camp to be. We do disagree and debate stuff a lot, but I do not think that diehard sentiments really affect decision making all that much. Sargon was a phenomenal leader, hence why he is doing so well in real life
Sorry I can't comment on this because I don't believe that I singled out anyone in particular. If I did, my apologies.
Sorry this time I'm unclear. The game has not been broken. Natural development takes place constantly, and in such circumstance balance of one thing can throw something elsewhere off-sync. I understand that as I myself am a developer. This just leads to issues of balance where certain equations are not performing correctly.
I fully agree with you. My belief is that there is TOO little on the skill tree, traits and the available captain skills and Boff skills.
Why only have 1 captain skill per level anyway? Other games have a selection of skills one can choose from allowing for more diversification.
I hope is that one day soon I will see a tournament unrestricted and with only support.
One has to think about one thing that has evolved as a negative effect of this cycle.
When one is confronted with a player who has really gone to town on their build and research and planned it to the very last iota, the mentality he/she is confronted with is that they must be "cheating" or "relying on "broken stuff". The problem is compounded by the events of the last while.
All those players slice-and-dice me since Beta I believe. Am I ashamed that they do. Not really. At the time when I started I just wanted to be their friends, because that is where all the fun seemed to be. Talent is like a magnet for fun.
Boot Camp is a PvP community project. Its not a Sargon project or a drkfrontiers project. Its just your fellow pvpers in the q's trying to keep PvP afloat. Create a safe space to learn and grow, and perhaps make some new friends. If anyone is threatened by that, all I can ask is why and what on earth do they think we want to take from them?
Boot Camp is in a state of evolving into what it needs to become to stay relevant. We have started to focus on tournaments and our own leaderboard with prizes etc, and we now have a Senate, so that we can draw more people further afield into trying PvP.
We have many ambitious ideas, and enough room for dreamer and builders.
I miss Regulus's friendship, and its one of my defining BC experiences.
17th August at 7pm in CEST and in EDT
A while,ago you had to pay for a monthly subscription or LTS to play, and yeah companies do need money in order to keep something alive. I do not condone with the way they are doing it tho but newbies must realize it.
You cant teach em to PvP and only learning afterwards in order to be competitive you need to invest quit some time and money.
Where does the ladder end? What do you want the, to achieve? They can Q up right now and hope for a full 10 man total pug/ newb team and they have their own littl competition in their own realm.
I agree that the reality is that there are some bits of equipment that are basically required to stay at the cutting edge of staying competitive - but that is not really the goal of bootcamp (staying at the cutting edge), and in my opinion should not be the goal of most of the students.
I also feel a handful of items fall into "crutch" territory, or are simply way out of balance for their opportunity cost, regardless of how much zen, dilithium or lobi they cost you.
No one is telling anyone they "can't" use an item or power (outside of tourney rules).
On the other hand, one who learns to fight and compete with less will be better for it when they have access to more.
To defend what drkfrontiers is getting at, I think the most important thing bootcamp can do is provide a solid base for the novice player.
These are players, many of whom are literally learning extremely basic mechanics many of us simply take for granted at this point.
You don't need to learn how to optimize a 5 man team around X, Y & Z TACTICS, when you don't even know how to create a simple shield distribution bind yet.
Letting the entire avalanche of potential item/powers and their combinations loose so early on, would only suffocate and drown many of them with information they don't really need at the moment.
It would also pretty much spoil them to where they might actually stunt their own player abilities in the long run by relying on crutches so early on.