Amateur.... Hollywood doesn't make ANYTHING for "the love of filmmaking". Sure sometimes a film will get bankrolled by somebody like Arnold or Bruce and get made even though the studios don't really want it, but that's a rare exception, and in those cases it's the individual's idea an not Hollywood's so they don't really count.
Oh but they do... And indeed, I understand that Hollywood does EVERYTHING fir the money, but in other instances, they're a bit more creative than just throwing out re-makes for easy money...
Indeed they did, but that did not spark a trilogy of movies, nor a new series (which is what some fans of 09 seem to think it will do with the Star Trek franchise) I suspect the reason is probably financially based, although on a personal level, I think the film was excellent :cool:
A Fine Job
So ripping off one of the best films in Star Trek ever and making new trek nothing more than a generic sci fi film.
Lets just look at a few things that was used
1. The Original Khan was name Khan Noonien Singh and was Indian which fit with the name
The new Khan is british and fit the name Harriman better than Khan
- The original TOS )and TWoK) Khan was played by a mexican actor (Ricardo Montalban)
- ST:ID had a British actor playing Khan. (And if you listen to Ricardo Montalban, he's NOT using an indian accent when portraying Khan)
^^^
So, yeah, sorry, don't see the issue here - I mean it's like getting a British actor to play a French ship captain, but still speak with a recognizable British accent. I mean, come on; would Star trek ever stoop to something like that?...oh, wait...
2. Old Khan used his mind to try and outwit Kirk tactically and thought he had strength he knew that may not always win the day
New Khan relied more on brute force rather than tatical thinking
Not really. Kahn was using BOTH his brawn and his brains; and even had Spock confused for a time.
Spock: "Kahn is supposed to be helping us."
Kirk: "No, I think we're helping him."
3. Kirks death scene and how he died was a direct plagarism on Spocks death in the Wrath of Khan
It wasn't plagiarism per se - it was an event in a mirror type universe; but events unfolded in such a way in the this mirror universe that roles were reversed.
4. Spocks KHANNNNN Scream was just plain cheese when Kirk did it in WOK it fitted as he is human and had a reason. Spock's just was plain annoying there was no need and quite frankly irritated me.
- If you had paid attention to the story, Spock stated that he mind melded with Admiral Pike at the time of his death out of curiosity and an attempt to better understand part o his human side and it affected him. Here was a human he had bonded with dying in front of him (again) - and he was affected. I had no issue with it.
5. Kirks resurrection
Okay so since there was no Genesis device what d the use to resurrect Kirk. Magic blood Again irritating.
then there are some classic TOS episodes you'll probably find just as annoying:
- Operation Annihilate (30 minutes of Spock going permanently blind - only to find his vision was saved by a second internal eyelid he conveniently forgot about up until the last few minutes of the episode.)
- Amok Time (And this one's often held up as a great episode and fan favorite) I mean come on - McCoy slips Kirk a shot that simulates death to the point that NONE of the people in the wedding party notice Kirk is just unconscious?
- The Enterprise Incident - Spock uses the "Vulcan Death Grip" - which somehow simulates death to the point that Romulan doctors (and lets not forget that Romulans are/were Vulcans who left the planet Vulcan centuries ago because they didn't beleive in the ways of Surak); and Romulans somehow know about Spock serving on the Enterprise; but they don't know recall that there's no such thing as a "Vulcan Death Grip" (Confirmed by Spock himself near the end of the episode.
^^^^
Man where DOES Star Trek get a reputation as a groundbreaking, well written set of stories?:eek::D;)
in the end, NOTHING in ST:ID was executed any better or worse by earlier entries in the franchise - and hell, I think ST:ID did a better job paying a sort of homage to STII:TWoK then ST:Nemesis' ham fisted attempt to ape elements of STII:TWoK. (YMMV of course.)
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
It's also not as though Trek doesn't steal from itself to try and improve something years later. Star Trek: The Motion Picture was essentially just a big-budget version of the TOS episode: The Changeling where Nomad was simply replaced with V'ger.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
A Fine Job
So ripping off one of the best films in Star Trek ever and making new trek nothing more than a generic sci fi film.
Wrath of Khan took the exact same plot and the exact same character progression and the exact same themes that were used in The Motion Picture. Then it added an angry villain, lots of explosions, and space battles.
Why are you perfectly fine with WoK "ripping off" the film before it in almost every way, but when JJ does it, it's a travesty?
WoK has far more similarities to TMP than Into Darkness has with WoK.
TMP
First Officer Will Decker is in love with an empathic alien member of the crew, Ilia.
TNG
First Officer Will Riker is in love with an empathic alien member of the crew, Troi.
The basic script for the original series episode "Elaan of Troyius" was recycled twice. It got particularly bad with Enterprise, which was accused of being a recycle of Voyager as a whole set in the past.
The Enterprise episode "Doctor's Orders" is virtually identical to the Voyager episode "One."
The ending of Star Trek: Nemesis was basically the ending of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. And the first half of Nemesis was basically the first half of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
Not only was Star Trek: The Motion Picture's plot based on the script for the cancelled Phase II pilot, but it bore a striking similarity to an episode from the original series, "The Changeling".
The Enterprise episode "Home" was similar to the Next Generation episode "Family". Both dealt with the Enterprise returning to Earth and the crew going on shore leave to visit their families and friends. Both were basically done so the characters and viewers could recover from the previous episodes, which had been emotionally trying for everyone ("Best of Both Worlds" for Next Generation, the entire Xindi arc for Enterprise). However, "Home" did serve a higher purpose, introducing three plot elements that would be expanded upon later (T'Pol's political problems and arranged marriage, human xenophobia, and the character of Erika Hernandez, captain of the starship Columbia). Short version: "Home" was "Family" with a few Chekhov's Guns. (No Chekov's Guns, though.)
"Oasis" from Enterprise was extremely similar to "Shadowplay" from Deep Space Nine, both being about isolated societies that turn out to mostly consist of holograms created by the one real person to stave off loneliness after the people they're based on were all killed. "Oasis" even brought back Deep Space Nine cast member Rene Auberjonois, who immediately pointed out the similarity.
Enterprise also has the episode "Chosen Realm," an obvious redo of the original series' "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Both deal with aliens who are at war over a trivial matter reflecting society at the time(having different colored skin, or a trivial religious debate), who ultimately return to their planet to discover that everyone has long since killed each other.
Star Trek: Voyager was often considered just a recycle of Star Trek: The Next Generation. For example, the Next Generation episode "Lonely Among Us" featured an Energy Being that is able to possess people and machines, and takes over the ship. Voyager's "The Haunting of Deck Twelve" used almost exactly the same plotline, but with the Framing Device of having Neelix telling the story of what happened to some children. By chance (probably), the Voyager episode ended up airing back-to-back with a repeat of the Next Generation episode when it was shown on BBC2.
Similarly, the Voyager two-parter "Future's End" takes a lot of story elements from Star Trek IV.
The Season 1 Voyager episode "Ex Posto Facto" is basically Next Gen's "A Matter of Perspective": A Rashomon Plot in which the crew's The Casanova is accused of murdering a scientist due to an attraction to the man's wife. The crew discover the truth due to an oddity in a simulation of the event. The differences are the actual solution, the form of the simulation, and the atmosphere: "Ex Posto Facto" is a Noir Episode.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Not only was Star Trek: The Motion Picture's plot based on the script for the cancelled Phase II pilot, but it bore a striking similarity to an episode from the original series, "The Changeling".
And "Obsession". In the episode, Kirk was obsessed with killing the space cloud and making up for his perceived failure as a lieutenant aboard the Farragut; in the movie, he was obsessed with regaining command of Enterprise and making up for his perceived failure in allowing himself to be promoted.
Oh but they do... And indeed, I understand that Hollywood does EVERYTHING fir the money, but in other instances, they're a bit more creative than just throwing out re-makes for easy money...
Do you know what a B-movie is? Short version: low budget films that are made so that the studio gets a steady income.
It all comes down to Gene's initial simple failing in demonizing Klingons and their culture for the benefit of Enterprise and her crew. Look at the can of worms it opened up, entirely acceptable in the late 60's.. not so much today.
Why? It's obviously racist, and should be left with the dinosaurs, like it HAS been.
Today in 2409 Klingons are a proud warrior race with a rich and storied culture. Namely how Worf came to find his azz on Qo'nos again..
Lyndon Brewer: 20% chance to capture enemy ship for 60 seconds on successful use of boarding party.
It all comes down to Gene's initial simple failing in demonizing Klingons and their culture for the benefit of Enterprise and her crew. Look at the can of worms it opened up, entirely acceptable in the late 60's.. not so much today.
Why? It's obviously racist, and should be left with the dinosaurs, like it HAS been.
Today in 2409 Klingons are a proud warrior race with a rich and storied culture. Namely how Worf came to find his azz on Qo'nos again..
Yo0u really need to actually watch the original Star Trek before making such an absurd comment, because that was hardly the case. In both "Errand of Mercy" and even "Day of the Dove" BOTH sides were shown as having flaws and misconceptions about the other side. (and the same thing can be said of the TOS episodes involving Romulans like "Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident") - neither side was portrayed as 100% 'right'.
In other words it wasn't like your average TNG type story where after Picard made a speech, his view was validated by the end of the episode.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
@armsmen: TOS Klingons did tend towards being mustache twirling villains though.....
they did stuff like poisoning a grain shipment in an effort to wipe out a Federation colony...
Well, actually, the poison would have just rendered the seed grain inert, so that it would never sprout. Then the Federation colony would be unable to exploit the planet profitably, so under the terms of the Organian Treaty they'd have been forced to abandon the world to the Klingons (who probably had something more like strip-mining in mind). There was, it would seem, no intention to actually harm anyone; the only reason it even came to light was because the tribbles tried to live off the grain. Pretty clever of them, actually. Akin to modern industrial sabotage - ideally, no lives are lost, it just becomes economically infeasible for the target company to continue on course.
Comments
Oh but they do... And indeed, I understand that Hollywood does EVERYTHING fir the money, but in other instances, they're a bit more creative than just throwing out re-makes for easy money...
Indeed they did, but that did not spark a trilogy of movies, nor a new series (which is what some fans of 09 seem to think it will do with the Star Trek franchise) I suspect the reason is probably financially based, although on a personal level, I think the film was excellent :cool:
- The original TOS )and TWoK) Khan was played by a mexican actor (Ricardo Montalban)
- ST:ID had a British actor playing Khan. (And if you listen to Ricardo Montalban, he's NOT using an indian accent when portraying Khan)
^^^
So, yeah, sorry, don't see the issue here - I mean it's like getting a British actor to play a French ship captain, but still speak with a recognizable British accent. I mean, come on; would Star trek ever stoop to something like that?...oh, wait...
Not really. Kahn was using BOTH his brawn and his brains; and even had Spock confused for a time.
Spock: "Kahn is supposed to be helping us."
Kirk: "No, I think we're helping him."
It wasn't plagiarism per se - it was an event in a mirror type universe; but events unfolded in such a way in the this mirror universe that roles were reversed.
- If you had paid attention to the story, Spock stated that he mind melded with Admiral Pike at the time of his death out of curiosity and an attempt to better understand part o his human side and it affected him. Here was a human he had bonded with dying in front of him (again) - and he was affected. I had no issue with it.
then there are some classic TOS episodes you'll probably find just as annoying:
- Operation Annihilate (30 minutes of Spock going permanently blind - only to find his vision was saved by a second internal eyelid he conveniently forgot about up until the last few minutes of the episode.)
- Amok Time (And this one's often held up as a great episode and fan favorite) I mean come on - McCoy slips Kirk a shot that simulates death to the point that NONE of the people in the wedding party notice Kirk is just unconscious?
- The Enterprise Incident - Spock uses the "Vulcan Death Grip" - which somehow simulates death to the point that Romulan doctors (and lets not forget that Romulans are/were Vulcans who left the planet Vulcan centuries ago because they didn't beleive in the ways of Surak); and Romulans somehow know about Spock serving on the Enterprise; but they don't know recall that there's no such thing as a "Vulcan Death Grip" (Confirmed by Spock himself near the end of the episode.
^^^^
Man where DOES Star Trek get a reputation as a groundbreaking, well written set of stories?:eek::D;)
in the end, NOTHING in ST:ID was executed any better or worse by earlier entries in the franchise - and hell, I think ST:ID did a better job paying a sort of homage to STII:TWoK then ST:Nemesis' ham fisted attempt to ape elements of STII:TWoK. (YMMV of course.)
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Wrath of Khan took the exact same plot and the exact same character progression and the exact same themes that were used in The Motion Picture. Then it added an angry villain, lots of explosions, and space battles.
Why are you perfectly fine with WoK "ripping off" the film before it in almost every way, but when JJ does it, it's a travesty?
WoK has far more similarities to TMP than Into Darkness has with WoK.
TMP
First Officer Will Decker is in love with an empathic alien member of the crew, Ilia.
TNG
First Officer Will Riker is in love with an empathic alien member of the crew, Troi.
The basic script for the original series episode "Elaan of Troyius" was recycled twice. It got particularly bad with Enterprise, which was accused of being a recycle of Voyager as a whole set in the past.
The Enterprise episode "Doctor's Orders" is virtually identical to the Voyager episode "One."
The ending of Star Trek: Nemesis was basically the ending of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. And the first half of Nemesis was basically the first half of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
Not only was Star Trek: The Motion Picture's plot based on the script for the cancelled Phase II pilot, but it bore a striking similarity to an episode from the original series, "The Changeling".
The Enterprise episode "Home" was similar to the Next Generation episode "Family". Both dealt with the Enterprise returning to Earth and the crew going on shore leave to visit their families and friends. Both were basically done so the characters and viewers could recover from the previous episodes, which had been emotionally trying for everyone ("Best of Both Worlds" for Next Generation, the entire Xindi arc for Enterprise). However, "Home" did serve a higher purpose, introducing three plot elements that would be expanded upon later (T'Pol's political problems and arranged marriage, human xenophobia, and the character of Erika Hernandez, captain of the starship Columbia). Short version: "Home" was "Family" with a few Chekhov's Guns. (No Chekov's Guns, though.)
"Oasis" from Enterprise was extremely similar to "Shadowplay" from Deep Space Nine, both being about isolated societies that turn out to mostly consist of holograms created by the one real person to stave off loneliness after the people they're based on were all killed. "Oasis" even brought back Deep Space Nine cast member Rene Auberjonois, who immediately pointed out the similarity.
Enterprise also has the episode "Chosen Realm," an obvious redo of the original series' "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield." Both deal with aliens who are at war over a trivial matter reflecting society at the time(having different colored skin, or a trivial religious debate), who ultimately return to their planet to discover that everyone has long since killed each other.
Star Trek: Voyager was often considered just a recycle of Star Trek: The Next Generation. For example, the Next Generation episode "Lonely Among Us" featured an Energy Being that is able to possess people and machines, and takes over the ship. Voyager's "The Haunting of Deck Twelve" used almost exactly the same plotline, but with the Framing Device of having Neelix telling the story of what happened to some children. By chance (probably), the Voyager episode ended up airing back-to-back with a repeat of the Next Generation episode when it was shown on BBC2.
Similarly, the Voyager two-parter "Future's End" takes a lot of story elements from Star Trek IV.
The Season 1 Voyager episode "Ex Posto Facto" is basically Next Gen's "A Matter of Perspective": A Rashomon Plot in which the crew's The Casanova is accused of murdering a scientist due to an attraction to the man's wife. The crew discover the truth due to an oddity in a simulation of the event. The differences are the actual solution, the form of the simulation, and the atmosphere: "Ex Posto Facto" is a Noir Episode.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
If you want a classic example... Attaaaacckkk of the killer Tomatoes! Attaaaacckkk of the killer Tomatoes!...
Oh sorry.... The theme song goes through my head every time I try to say the name.... :P
My character Tsin'xing
Why? It's obviously racist, and should be left with the dinosaurs, like it HAS been.
Today in 2409 Klingons are a proud warrior race with a rich and storied culture. Namely how Worf came to find his azz on Qo'nos again..
cause sometimes its party time!
I wouldn't call In Time, Bad Teacher, Mean Bosses , Tron:Legacy etc B movies :P
I remember the cartoon... Tara was fiiine :cool:
Yo0u really need to actually watch the original Star Trek before making such an absurd comment, because that was hardly the case. In both "Errand of Mercy" and even "Day of the Dove" BOTH sides were shown as having flaws and misconceptions about the other side. (and the same thing can be said of the TOS episodes involving Romulans like "Balance of Terror" and "The Enterprise Incident") - neither side was portrayed as 100% 'right'.
In other words it wasn't like your average TNG type story where after Picard made a speech, his view was validated by the end of the episode.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
@armsmen: TOS Klingons did tend towards being mustache twirling villains though.....
they did stuff like poisoning a grain shipment in an effort to wipe out a Federation colony...
My character Tsin'xing