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What's the big deal with A2B builds? (Caution: Heresy)
cgjannek
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I've been reading up a lot on A2B builds lately and frankly, I fail to see the sense in it.
"I can do 9000+ DPS with it" yeah... great!
While this may be worthwile for a Tac Cpt who insists on flying a Cruiser (despite the fact that he'll always get more DPS out of a reasonably geared Escort IMO) I just don't really see how my Engi Cpt would benefit from this. In STFs at least which is what I care about, as I don't do PVP.
To say that I didn't care about my DPS might be a bit strong, but I do NOT consider DPS to be the chief Job of an Engi Cruiser!
For me taking (and surviving!) incoming Damage is!
Right now this is my Current STF Build. (not yet perfect)
With the new EPS Manifold Efficiency Trait I'm getting pretty good Power levels alternating EPTS and EPTW every 15 seconds.
125/100
125/50
58/25
83/25
With a S->W Core I feel my Weapons Power levels are sufficient to say the least.
Constantly spamming EPTS, EPTW, TT1 and Aux2Sif renders me damn near invulnerable.
The occasional one shot kill by invisible torps of death aside, hardly anything flying around in ESTFs gets close to killing me.
If I changed to an A2B build my BOFF setup probably would look like this
Univ LtCdr (Tac): TT1, Fire at Will 2, Pattern Omega 1
Lt Tac: Beam Overload 1, Torp Spread 2 or the other way around
Cdr Eng: EPTW1, A2B1, A2B2, DEM3
Univ Ens (Eng): EPTS 1
Lt Sci: PH1, Haz Em2
Advantages over my current Buld:
More DPS...probably
...
...
hmmmm... what else?
Disadvantages:
Tricky to run activating all the Powers in the right order
hugely expensive getting the Doffs to make it worthwile
Only remaining Hull Heal Skill (Haz Em) unreliable due to fluctuations in Aux power
thus survivability clearly reduced
Things may look a bit better on a Fleet Assault Cruiser due to different Boff layout, leaving the LtCdr Eng slot free to slot in either RSP or EngTeam3 but still...
With neither Build I'd feel anywhere as confident tanking a Tac Cube or Gateway as I do with my current Setup. Let alone tanking both at the same time which I ended up doing on occasion in the past (more by accident than on purpose though, but some guys just insist on pissing off the Tac Cube in Conduit prematurely). This got me in some tight spots but even that I survived.
I probably will try out an A2B Build on my Klingon Tac one day using the Bortasqu' Command Cruiser, but for an Engi Build aimed at Survivability above all else I find it clearly wanting.
"I can do 9000+ DPS with it" yeah... great!
While this may be worthwile for a Tac Cpt who insists on flying a Cruiser (despite the fact that he'll always get more DPS out of a reasonably geared Escort IMO) I just don't really see how my Engi Cpt would benefit from this. In STFs at least which is what I care about, as I don't do PVP.
To say that I didn't care about my DPS might be a bit strong, but I do NOT consider DPS to be the chief Job of an Engi Cruiser!
For me taking (and surviving!) incoming Damage is!
Right now this is my Current STF Build. (not yet perfect)
With the new EPS Manifold Efficiency Trait I'm getting pretty good Power levels alternating EPTS and EPTW every 15 seconds.
125/100
125/50
58/25
83/25
With a S->W Core I feel my Weapons Power levels are sufficient to say the least.
Constantly spamming EPTS, EPTW, TT1 and Aux2Sif renders me damn near invulnerable.
The occasional one shot kill by invisible torps of death aside, hardly anything flying around in ESTFs gets close to killing me.
If I changed to an A2B build my BOFF setup probably would look like this
Univ LtCdr (Tac): TT1, Fire at Will 2, Pattern Omega 1
Lt Tac: Beam Overload 1, Torp Spread 2 or the other way around
Cdr Eng: EPTW1, A2B1, A2B2, DEM3
Univ Ens (Eng): EPTS 1
Lt Sci: PH1, Haz Em2
Advantages over my current Buld:
More DPS...probably
...
...
hmmmm... what else?
Disadvantages:
Tricky to run activating all the Powers in the right order
hugely expensive getting the Doffs to make it worthwile
Only remaining Hull Heal Skill (Haz Em) unreliable due to fluctuations in Aux power
thus survivability clearly reduced
Things may look a bit better on a Fleet Assault Cruiser due to different Boff layout, leaving the LtCdr Eng slot free to slot in either RSP or EngTeam3 but still...
With neither Build I'd feel anywhere as confident tanking a Tac Cube or Gateway as I do with my current Setup. Let alone tanking both at the same time which I ended up doing on occasion in the past (more by accident than on purpose though, but some guys just insist on pissing off the Tac Cube in Conduit prematurely). This got me in some tight spots but even that I survived.
I probably will try out an A2B Build on my Klingon Tac one day using the Bortasqu' Command Cruiser, but for an Engi Build aimed at Survivability above all else I find it clearly wanting.
Post edited by cgjannek on
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Comments
One word: cooldowns.
Power levels being through the roof are icing on the cake compared to being able to take 30% off of every boff cooldown every ten seconds. Set yourself up right and you can damn near effectively have a ship doing a completely legitimate version of the "Voldemort" bug.
Set yourself up an appropriate keybind and the ability cycling is just about automatic. That leaves your attention available for application of the rest of your combat powers when and how you choose, except on a permanent fast forward button.
The cost to this is that its more complicated and requires greater attention to detail and mechanics.
The downside is generally poorer healing, as most heals rely on Aux power (as well as other sci abilities). But you can get around that with good timing, Aux batteries or heals like RSP or Eng team.
The thing is: what is this game about? Damage. So in general, sacrificing some survivability for a bit more damage output is preferable.
Myself, I'm using both the Aux2Batt builds and normal Dragon builds (double cycling EPtS and another EPtX) on cruisers, depending on whether I want to focus a wee bit more on healing/tanking or just 'shoot, shoot, shoot' tactics.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Once I got my Kling Tac to the point where I can get the Doffs from B'tran Cluster I'll try it out.
Just not ready to cough up 10+ Mil EC for one Doff, of which I'd need 3... for that kind of money I rather buy 250 Contraband = 100k Dil
I personally prefer the 'Dragon' style (never knew it was called that) of cycling EPtX's for that tanky-yet-shooty flavor. If you like your Aux-based healing then you can certainly go that route and pull respectable DPS.
Something I want to bring up.
Yes, it's true that there are plenty of 'huge DPS in STFs', especially with A2B builds. But a good portion of these builds are usually doing the following:
FAW, and APB...a lot. They hit FAW, hit APB, and start shooting everything around them. So everything is getting debuffed and taking more damage, that is all very true.
But in most STFs, stuff like Transformers and Gates are gonna be healing off that damage instantly (presuming it just started), plus any spheres, cubes, and probes are gonna only receive just a few taps from that person. So while they may parse these huge numbers, as for how truly effective that is...is really in the eye of the beholder. Using FAW means it lacks focus fire.
I'm not saying it doesn't work because it does, I'm just saying that while people are seeing these huge numbers, it doesn't mean that the huge numbers are real, permanent damage if so much of it is because of debuffs, and also gets healed away.
doubling every boff ability, was it dem3, rsp2, apo1, bfaw2, or fbp1.
getting superior boost to speed, turn, beam damage, shield resistance and regeneration
cons:
not able to use in many ships effectively,
costs 3 doffs
random fluctuating in auxilliary power
the ones that have problems using aux powers with a2b are doing it wrong, how you want your base power levels to go is 75-100 in weapons, , 50-70 in aux and rest where you want, it's not hard to get heals from 125 aux, the ways to get good heals are using aux battery when you need to use hazard emitter or waiting till you have enough aux to use specific aux skills by not using a2b for few seconds.
a2b is able improve your beam dps by 20-50% due to the weapon power overcapping, it also resets the weapon power to 125 in midle of your shots, causing more dmg done each salvo, it caps your shield resistance, it improves your turn rate and flight speed dramaticly.
galor is best escort.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
I'm running STFs with fleetmates who are able to hit 15k-20k DPS in ships like Jem Dreadnoughts and Scimitars that use every trick in the book for that kind of DPS. But they sacrifice survivability to do this; when they draw aggro, they die.
A Dragon Flagship doing 4k is not going to take aggro from ships doing 5x more damage. No amount of Threat Control, no +Th console is going to make up that difference. Those things must be combined with high DPS for that cruiser to get itself shot at.
And those two Aux2Batt boff slots are hogging spaces that could be better filled with something like RSP or Aux2SIF - whatever ship your on, you'll need the heals and resistance buffs, because you don't have the built-in engineering abilities. You have tactical initiative instead.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Forgive me, n00b here, but wouldn't that suggest that NOT using TI is recommended in this case, in favor of something that wasn't completely opposed to a synergy?
Again, forgive me, but if I can get my RSP to come up on global cooldown, then 1 RSP is plenty, vs having 2, right? As for A2SIF, since most A2B builds completely forego it, I assume that it's superseded by other abilities, or unnecessary?
It seems the vast majority of your most active players (forum regulars) hate the idea... and while that's a small subset of the playerbase, I think it's an important constituency.
THE PLAYERS DO NOT WANT THIS.
What is the best BOFF layout for A2B build on a galor?
I recently picked up Galor and been enjoying it and trying to figure out how to make A2B build especially since I have three of the purple tech already. Running it as a beam boat with 6 spirals, rommie experimental beam and cutting beams.
Since TI is a captain ability, you don't get the opportunity to not use it. I would still tend to think that A2B is useful because it keeps up the TI effect nonstop.
Yes, 1 RSP is enough, a second won't reduce the cooldown any. A2B builds don't use A2SIF (or A2D) because they all share a global cooldown, and the A2B chain keeps that cooldown running on other A2X abilities. I have seen one person who decided to use it anyway and interrupt the A2B to do it, but that's not the usual recommendation.
To address the main point of the thread: the advantage of A2B builds, what it all comes down to is that PvE in this game is mainly about damage dealing, and with the reduced cooldowns an A2B build is probably around as good at tanking as anything else (so, can tank pretty much everything but the one-shot torps) while getting a major damage boost.
An Eng above all others is actually in the best position to use this kind of build.
MW and RSF can offset the potential (for players new to the A2B rotation) loss of survivability.
EPS transfer can be used to power Aux based heals during low aux cycle windows.
Tac Captains, as noted, will have less use for TI, while Sci captains depend on Aux for Sensor Scan and Dampening Field.
Holding aggro with an Eng likely involves doff'd APD, which the build can bring up faster. And to be clear, if your goal is to survive but you're not holding aggro, you've missed the point.
Again, IDK what you would build for other than DPS because without it you can't hold aggro and wouldn't need survivability. The incoming damage in an STF isn't something you need to build a team healer for.
failing to see the benefit of an aux2batt build is like failing to see the benefit in tax free income...
no significant weapon power drop, despite having 7-8 beams on target...
above 65% defense, because your engine power is above 100 for 90% of the time
did i mention that some CDs would be reduced below the global cooldown?
but the most important factor: you can actually play the most dispised ships with this build...without being a total victim.
Perhaps I should have said Aux2Bat makes TI redundant instead of the other way around, but either way it's a wasted ability.
If you're in an escort, you'll have at most four Eng. slots to play with. You need every extra heal and dmg. res. buff you can get, and a few goodies like EPtW/E or DEM... And it's not like escorts don't have enough tac slots for you to run two copies of tac team or CRF. Unless you want to use everyTac ability in the books constantly (which you can't anyway, thanks to weapon global CDs) I fail to see the advantage Aux2Bat offers over a good balance of abilities and DOffs.
I can see the point for cruisers trying to max out their few Tac abilities, but if you're a Tac officer you have no built-in heals and you do have a cooldown reduction ability with a 25% uptime... I just don't see it being worth the sacrifice in most situations to give up heals and offensive Eng abilities so you can spam BFAW twice as often.
Not to mention the DOff slots you have to give up. Want to use Adak'Ukan to increase your tank's threat with APD? Wave goodbye to your EPtX engineer. Want your tractor beams to drain shields? So long, Marion. Are you in a carrier? Hope you don't want to buff your pets.
And speaking of Aux2 powers, Aux2SIF and Aux2Damp are both highly underrated and extremely useful skills, especially for cruisers built to tank. As I indicate in my current sig, my KDF Eng.'s Bortasqu' relies heavily on Aux2Damp. Using that and alternating between EM and APO1, I can fly her like the world's biggest escort and boost her turnrate and acceleration to astonishing levels. It transforms a floating brick into the most hilarious ship in the game.
And really, that sums up my biggest beef with Aux2Bat - it's boring. If you just want to be an Eng. tank and turn your cruiser into a mobile siege platform, sit around pressing spacebar, firing off AOE attacks as often as you can, great. But if you like to plan ahead, time an alpha strike just right, out-tank and out-fly your enemy, then the Aux2Bat build especially on a Tac captain is simply not the best route to take.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Man I'm so tired of that useless envy-born argument. In ISE there is one target per side that heals, out of around 4 others (the 4 gens, the cube, there spheres that spawn). ONE out of 4. That is perhaps, if FaW was active 100% of the time a boost of 20% extra damage that gets healed way. Only the time that the invincible transformer is standing there is yet again only a fraction of the entire STF In reality, no matter how you twist things, you'll only overinflate your DPS by perhaps 5%. The rest is all real. 5 pro cruisers get a STF done in 4 minutes just as 5 pro escorts do. There is nothing inflated ego related going on there, that is just fact, I have done it, multiple times.
In CSE it's easier to get more inflation since more targets are exposed and healing, but if you do 10k in ISE; then you are doing 10k in ISE, 12k in CSE will still mean you are outperforming 99% of the other players in the game. If it's really 11.2 or 9.8k doesn't matter ****. You are still outperforming any and all pug escorts by a factor of 2. The overall time to completion does not lie. You can argue for the damage in the hundreds being inaccurate, but you can't argue away the big picture.
Why argue this case at all? The only reason I can think of is to discredit people with such builds indirectly as cheaters. Well if it makes you feel better, keep convincing yourself that DPS cruisers are just uselessly shooting aimless to inflate their egos. Meanwhile I'll happily farm my 4 minute STFs.
By the way, with the right equipment and proper flying even a simple Dragon build does and always did 8k+ DPS. It's just that with the popularity of ATB more players are even trying to fly a cruiser with good dps. Most didn't bother before because the hive mind propaganda was telling people that cruisers sucked beyond redemption. Well they were wrong.
That's good for you, but sadly it makes you completely useless to a team, unless it's Hive Onslaught perhaps. The escorts can tank for themselves. You are wasting team space that would be better used by another escort (or DPS cruiser). You don't have to like it (it certainly sucks), but it's the way the game works.
Just btw, with an Aux2Batt build, you don't need Damage control engineers, you can cycle 2 different EPtX with full uptime (or just a single EPtS, if you wish). Given the bonus power from Aux2Batt, you're unlikely to need Marion enhanced DEM.
And hey, you still got 2 active space doff slots to fill.
EDIT: Oh, and don't underestimate an APO on global CD for the lucky cruisers that can slot one (I.E. galor, d'kora, excelsior,...). EWP is also useful to have on very short CD, among other abilities.
Understand, I don't find the Aux2Batt build the one and only solution to every cruiser (and definitely not escort type or sci ships), but it has very good advantages, especially in a game so focused on damage. Damage that cruisers so inherently lack.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Needing 3x technicians to make A2B worthwhile is also its drawback: it severely limits your doff slots. With 1x purple Warp Core Engineer always present (Penni Antonia Seeman), to give me a chance to extra power on EPtX, that leaves me with exactly 1 open doff position (and 0 if I need to stick in a Marion too for DEM).
A2B builds are awesome on, say, Fleet Excelsior with FAW: scored many a first place with it in SB24. Missing aux isn't always ideal, though. It makes things like Transfer Shield Strength useless; or Feedback Pulse, or Tractor Beams, Polarize Hull, etc. Or aux2sif, obviously.
A2B is a cute setup every self-respecting engineer should try out at least once. It's by no means a gratuitous "I win!" button, though.
You don't need three purple technicians to make an A2B build work; they're just the best you can get. I'd consider three blues to be generally sufficient, though with three blues you'd need a tac team conn officer (blue quality again would be fine), or a second copy of TT, to ensure its uptime. Anything with a normal cooldown over 30 seconds would be fine.
Yes, 3 slots taken by the Technicians is a lot, but in general, I don't see that many useful options there anyway.
- Using Aux2Batt, I'm generally swimming in subsystem power (except Aux, of course). I'll generally use some EPtX to go with it, naturally (what else with ensign engs, seriously, there's only Eng team). So I see no point in using a doff that can give me some more.
- Given all the power, Marion also seems much less attractive to me on an Aux2Batt build.
- Basically all the non-technician doffs that can reduce cooldowns are useless on such a build (Damage control engs, Conn officers, Development scis, Maintenance engs,...).
- There's usually no need for any of the sci-power affecting doffs, as Aux2Batt seems to me a generally bad fit for a sci heavy ship (sci does after all use Aux power a lot).
Hmm, what other doffs are you left with? I tend to fill empty slots with Shield distribution ones, but they're far from necessary. If you like tractor beam, a Tractor beam officer might be nice (you can only slot one). Then you have the ultra rare ones and that's about it.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
There are more DOFF doohickeys than most folks realize. You can scroll through that section of the page to see the various things DOFFs can provide - things that may not be listed on the individual pages for those respective DOFFs.
Tell us something specific you believe you need on your ship so that you can't afford to use 3 slots for technicans.
It's going to depend on the ship and what I'm trying to do with that ship.
9 ships...only one runs AtB. 6 of them could, but only one does.
The one ship that does, does so - because not to do so - would be extremely foolish. The ship is garbage without an AtB build.
Galaxy?
Lol, if I flew one - I'd likely say that.
There's just something about that ship, that I swear its stats are a lie - its worse than how bad it looks...meh.