Which will make them more useless to Sci and Eng. If you reread my post I mentioned the Tac buff problem directly. These mines are almost useless in current form to a Sci or Eng in a cruiser or science vessel as these have no access to the higher tier dispersal patterns or to Tac buffs. Nerf these and then what? I find them underwhelming now, 2 mines every 30 seconds.
50kdmg with only tac team1 and dispersal pattern beta 2 with a bonus of 4 or 5 seconds of a perfect hold and disable, without having to spec into graviton or sub
And that about sums it up. You could have saved the people a lot of time.
Not really, it came to the point of me saying that because its being made out to be a far bigger issue than it should be. Its not an issue in PVE at all, so instantly becomes negligible. These mines are the only reputation faction mines available at the moment, and in PVE they do an according amount of damage. There are about 100 other issues to address before PVP even gets a look at.
That's really funny you mention PvE.
The deadliest weapon I use is those mines. Strange.
Tuck YOUR ego away, getover YOURSELF and actually listen to what people have actually said!
The weapon is OP, end of.
I hope it gets nerfed and I use them myself.
Its funny you mention builds, sci, the one toon who can demolish anything a Tac has to offer with one click.
Now you cry because your 'I win' button might actually be made sensible.
If you need these mines as a crutch in PvP, then YOU NEED TO RESEARCH YOUR BUILD MORE!
Oh by the way.
Tac is powerful, that's kind of the point. Team dynamic the tacs do the damage.
If you don't like that fact, become one yourself and see its not as easy as you think to do.
Or just go play minecraft.
OK mate, firstly, half of what you just said doesn't make any sense. Not sure if its your grammar, spelling, or you just don't know yourself. Anyway. I did my best to translate into workable English.
Firstly, I AM A TAC. I said this previously. I use these mines on my Reman Tac, flying warbird escorts or scimitar. I also already said i still beat people without them, so thats yet another failing on your part to understand basic English. You are lucky i am even replying to you at all.
Mentioning PVE really isnt that funny as this is a PVE game. I never said mines were my main damage, you just clearly dont read very well. I have listened to people and the only one who talks any sense i will reply to in the next comment. The rest here are just people who cant accept this is a PVE game. If you want PVP focus, go play a PVP MMO. There are plenty out there.
I never mentioned builds, or 'i win' buttons, which is clearly an overreaction on your part. I guess you have been zapped by these mines once too often and are too lazy to try avoiding them.
Team dynamics....lol. Thats the funniest thing you have said. There are no team dynamics, there are only good builds and bad builds.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Not really, it came to the point of me saying that because its being made out to be a far bigger issue than it should be. Its not an issue in PVE at all, so instantly becomes negligible. These mines are the only reputation faction mines available at the moment, and in PVE they do an according amount of damage. There are about 100 other issues to address before PVP even gets a look at.
Of course it is not an issue in PvE. Because the Borg are stuck with repeating "Resistance is futile". Human players, on the other hand, have a habit of speaking up against things they don't deem fair. Some of them are justified, some of them are not. But these mines represent the former.
Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
I stated that my BoP and Mogai have no problems at the moment. Did you not note that I said that it is my science vessel and my cruiser that has the problem? Your point was that it is fast ships (escorts) that are the ones whining about it and having more problems. I hence made the point that my fast ships have no problem. Instead, it is my slower ships - sci vessels and cruisers - that have more of a problem.
If you want to make the case that the Sci/cruiser masters could tank them, you need to provide more information. Did you maximise your buffs? Otherwise, you are no more or less credible than I am. For all I know, you just dropped the mine on top of them with nothing more than an APO, and then they were crosshealed in time to tank the damage. Details are important. Besides, what part of overpowered despite counters existing do you not understand? You couldn't even refute the point that these are much, much better than other mines, to the point that they give too much for the cost.
Secondly, if you are nerdraging, don't blame others for doing so over the exact same issue. You're being hypocritical. In fact, you're whining a lot worse than we are. Do you really think we are the worst MMO gamers you've ever come across? Please, there are plenty worse.
Now, you trot out PvE/PvP dichotomy. Why didn't you say so in the first place? Would have made things a lot simpler. That said, it's an old argument, and it's something that only the devs can decide - whether they should consider balancing with PvP or not. However, that's no reason for at least letting us have our voices heard! In fact, why else would devs promote Boot Camp? Why else would there be devs dropping into OPvP at times? Obviously, although PvP is a smaller part of the game, it still has its role to play. And that means retaining some level of balance.
Besides, we've already suggested that the damage be at least switched to kinetic, which players can resist. PvE targets don't have much kinetic damage resist anyway, so this would hardly affect PvE. Would you be happy with such a compromise?
Anyway, my primary point stands. The Tholian Web Mines should be balanced to standard mines to the same level as the rep Torpedoes are balanced to the standard torpedoes. Common sense, don't you think?
Anyways, I'm through. It's not worth my time and effort arguing with you. Besides, I've made my points. I'll leave it to the devs to decide if the mines are worth a look at.
Some valid points. You at least seem to be discussing the merits rather than missing the point altogether.
The kinetic damage issue seems sensible and i hear your point on that. Thanks for being reasonable. The only issue i have with it is that its not kinetic. Its physical damage. The idea is that your ship is crushed by the web. Kinetic is blastwave and impact damage. However, the flipside of that is that i dont see why non mine attack patterns should increase their damage either. Doesnt make sense to me.
My comprimise would be keeping them how they are but making them non buffable damage from non-mine attack patterns.
I agree these mines are much better than other mines. They are also the only rep mines you can get, so i agree they should be a lot more powerful than standard mines. My point about PVE might be an old one however its still the most prominent point. This game is a PVE game. These mines are good in PVE, if they get nerfed because PVP players cant handle them, then PVE players lose out.
This is my main point, and my main issue with 'balancing'. Why should the majority of people on this game lose out because of a minority of outspoken individuals? You are right you have the right to have a say, i dont dispute that. Tthe reason i feel the pvpers on this game are so bad is because they cant do anything in moderation and have no empathy for PVE. They think its a big joke.
Its not up in the air, or in discussion. Its a fact that any blind man could see. ALL of the content is PVE. There is nothing that even mentions PVP. Unless you happen to open that obscure dropdown menu with all those other sideline options on there. No matter how many people say this is an 'old argument' it is nontheless highly relevant and always will be unless they make some major changes to pvp and bring new content.
People need to accept this. If you want a PVP MMO, there are plenty out there.
I am sure devs drop in to play for something different. They might even prefer pvp. However that doesnt change the focus of the game. PVP boot camp takes no development power, and therefore is not an issue.
Anytime i am referring to mines here i am talking one on one challenges. I would not use any examples from team matches as there are too many variables to make judgements. When i have played people that laugh these mines off, i couldnt tell you what they did, nor do i feel inclined too find out. All i know is some died badly, some of them didnt get hit and the ones that have been hit sometimes shook them off, or took very little damage. The reasons may have been that i wasnt fully alpha/omega buffed or that they have a way to heal/break it. I dont know. I dont use sci or eng, so i dont much care/know. The fact remains.
As you said the developers should and will decide. However, as they already stated that PVE endgame content is the main effort for the next episode release. So as it always has, the game is set to remain PVE focused with a PVP sideline. So justifying nerfing something that is good in PVE but supposedly 'OP' in PVP is ridiculous.
I wont reply anymore, i have made all the points i can. As you said, lets hope some devs might see this and take onboard what has been discussed.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Of course it is not an issue in PvE. Because the Borg are stuck with repeating "Resistance is futile". Human players, on the other hand, have a habit of speaking up against things they don't deem fair. Some of them are justified, some of them are not. But these mines represent the former.
Another person missing the entire point.
Its a PVE game. Like it or not.
These mines are good in PVE, so PVE players benefit.
Nerfing them for a few PVP players is what would be unjustified.
Want to know what is more silly?
Playing this game for PVP.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Ok last reply, this is draining my will to live. Its turning into a flame thread.
Not really, it came to the point of me saying that because its being made out to be a far bigger issue than it should be. Its not an issue in PVE at all, so instantly becomes negligible. These mines are the only reputation faction mines available at the moment, and in PVE they do an according amount of damage. There are about 100 other issues to address before PVP even gets a look at.
Yep, very intelligent, thanks for contributing. Escort player?
OK mate, firstly, half of what you just said doesn't make any sense. Not sure if its your grammar, spelling, or you just don't know yourself. Anyway. I did my best to translate into workable English.
Firstly, I AM A TAC. I said this previously. I use these mines on my Reman Tac, flying warbird escorts or scimitar. I also already said i still beat people without them, so thats yet another failing on your part to understand basic English. You are lucky i am even replying to you at all.
Mentioning PVE really isnt that funny as this is a PVE game. I never said mines were my main damage, you just clearly dont read very well. I have listened to people and the only one who talks any sense i will reply to in the next comment. The rest here are just people who cant accept this is a PVE game. If you want PVP focus, go play a PVP MMO. There are plenty out there.
I never mentioned builds, or 'i win' buttons, which is clearly an overreaction on your part. I guess you have been zapped by these mines once too often and are too lazy to try avoiding them.
Team dynamics....lol. Thats the funniest thing you have said. There are no team dynamics, there are only good builds and bad builds.
Hmm, obviously comprehension of the English language is quite low on your part.
Or it could be rage tears blurring your eyesight.
I've only been zapped 4-5 times over dozens of PvPs by them, however I've zapped many.
How can you see something that's near invisible? Oh yeah, it also shuts down all skills.
As for the final part, you are saying there is no team dynamic in a PvP system designed around 5 man teams?
Yeah, thought so.
Go on, go nerd rage cry some more in game whilst pwning noobs in PvP with your crutch.
Someone who defends a tool that is as overpowering as it is obviously lacks in skill or good build themself.
ITT another PvE apologist demanding that their hilariously overkill toy be left untouched because PvP doesn't matter. As if PvE wasn't already too easy.
These mines are good in PVE, so PVE players benefit.
Nerfing them for a few PVP players is what would be unjustified.
Want to know what is more silly?
Playing this game for PVP.
I believe that game balance is not about reducing the efficacy of an ability or power.
Its about ensuring that one ability does not become the clear and present winner over anything else.
Star Trek Online is only a PvE game if thats your sole focus.
Its something altogether different for a PvP enthusiast.
Other than the grind missions which I do for PvP, I hardly ever play PvE missions. The last time I played a featured episode I was two years younger. I think the last time I visited a exp. nebula mission was during Season 3. One only needs to kill so many tribbles before wanting to turn the gun on oneself.
The game has become PvE oriented only because of grind and paywalls which PWE encouraged. Make money from sales off things in C-Store was just not netting it for them. Its lucrative but risky, as it endangers the dev-client relationship and can be viewed negatively by many.
In Season 1 - 3, PvP was in its purest form as everything led-up to your PvP endgame. It was the non-PvP part of the community that complained there was nothing to do and forced the current status quo.
"These mines are good in PVE, so PVE players benefit.
Nerfing them for a few PVP players is what would be unjustified."
This really sums up the PvE mentality fairly. Where is the consideration towards balance? I have seen replies like this a thousand of times in one form or another.
Perhaps the only solution would be to remove these items altogether from PvP.
Its not like the PvE's are riding the queues right?
Or are they, knowing fully well the dilemma at hand, and counting on it?
50kdmg with only tac team1 and dispersal pattern beta 2 with a bonus of 4 or 5 seconds of a perfect hold and disable, without having to spec into graviton or sub
that is useless
I watched your youtube video. If he is not tac buffing them then why are you guys damaging him first? Is it not so he can hit GDF? He could kill you just as quick without using the mines. You even told the victim he wasn't supposed to heal as that allowed him to survive the first attack. He also wasn't moving or doing anything else to defend against them. Overall the video is not a good display of proof.
You may want to redo the test with an engineer in a shuttle dropping only 2 mines and using tactical team and show that OP damage. That would be a better way to prove your point than a JHAS Tac buffed using a dispersal pattern.
Why is it whenever something new comes out that is usefull and effective in PVP the players that are to lazy to change builds or strategies to compensate start coming on the forums and crying and demanding a nerf?
Anything that kills them or challenges that status quo must be nerfed or removed from the game. How dare something kill them. They are uber Leet PVP Gods. Nothing cant kill "them".
Realize that from time to time Cryptic will release new items and consoles that are going to be different than what you are use to. They may seem frustrating and scary in the begining but if you try to research and experiment with things you will see that most times you can come up with something that works to overcome it, and that the new big bad thing is not so frightning after all. I know that you all are user to buzzing around in you Bug ships with EPTE running non-stop with out a care in the world, but now there are tings out there that if you run into them they might give you an ouchie. So be careful out there.
Why is it whenever something new comes out that is usefull and effective in PVP the players that are to lazy to change builds or strategies to compensate start coming on the forums and crying and demanding a nerf?
That is completely and utterly false. As has been stated many times, it is not because something is merely new and effective that people complain, but when it is clearly dominant to all other options.
Sometimes, it isn't completely clear whether something is overwhelmingly good, but that isn't the case here.
And here is an even better consideration: these mines suck the fun out of PvP.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Why is it whenever something new comes out that is usefull and effective in PVP the players that are to lazy to change builds or strategies to compensate start coming on the forums and crying and demanding a nerf?
Anything that kills them or challenges that status quo must be nerfed or removed from the game. How dare something kill them. They are uber Leet PVP Gods. Nothing cant kill "them".
Realize that from time to time Cryptic will release new items and consoles that are going to be different than what you are use to. They may seem frustrating and scary in the begining but if you try to research and experiment with things you will see that most times you can come up with something that works to overcome it, and that the new big bad thing is not so frightning after all. I know that you all are user to buzzing around in you Bug ships with EPTE running non-stop with out a care in the world, but now there are tings out there that if you run into them they might give you an ouchie. So be careful out there.
Oh for goodness' sake - facepalm. We've just gone through the exact same discussion with someone else. Please, if you can't contribute anything to the discussion besides trotting out the same old stereotype of PvPers being dumb pricks who only use bugships and cannons and think themselves invincible, don't bother. We've heard it all before, and while there are some who fit the stereotype, many of us don't, and it is completely unfair to generalise in this manner.
Either make your logical argument that the mines are not OP, or you're just blowing hot air that is irrelevant to the thread.
After playing around with these last night as both 'miner' and 'minee', I think the worst thing is the stun. if that were eliminated, they would be survivable in a lot more cases.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Oh for goodness' sake - facepalm. We've just gone through the exact same discussion with someone else. Please, if you can't contribute anything to the discussion besides trotting out the same old stereotype of PvPers being dumb pricks who only use bugships and cannons and think themselves invincible, don't bother. We've heard it all before, and while there are some who fit the stereotype, many of us don't, and it is completely unfair to generalise in this manner.
Either make your logical argument that the mines are not OP, or you're just blowing hot air that is irrelevant to the thread.
I fly a Tac cruiser and use them in Arena and in Kerrat everyday. In Kerrat they work great to catch alpha strikers. Sometimes if I catch them and get a BO on them it is a kill. In Arena they only work if someone runs into them and still it does not always end up being an "insta-kill" I have been hit with a few and never been killed by them. Sure they did some damage but they are not the end all and be all of super weapons that this thread is suggesting. If you want to complain there are still one-shot combos in this game with the PSW/SubNuk/BO that knock all systems off line and kill you in under 2 seconds. Buts thats okay? There are so many other thinks wrong in this game that need attention and this Mine launcher is not one of them. It works great and any changes to it will make it worthless and thus make the entire Tholian reputation sets and gear worthless. As it stands the Space set bonuses are useless, and the 3 set bonus's from the launcher and console and beam array are not that great either. This Mine is the only item that works as intended and is useful. But we can't have that can we?
change builds ? it is physical damage for god sake, it can instapop anyone with only 50% of its damage ! and it gives a free hold and disable, spare me, i like the mines too, but op stuff needs to be nerfed. dont Forget the cooldown is 30 seconds too
"only item that works as intended"
im sure it complements ur nooby builds but...
"not always end up being an "insta-kill""
how can you say no nerf if you know they are op
If anyone can guarantee their mines will hit the target 100% of the time, wake me then. It's nice these mines can be deployed every 30 sec. Except you can deploy them 10 times and still not hitting your target. :mad:
Even whale-cruisers know how to run EptE these days. What does this say about people who are crying for nerf? Not fit for PvP - need to go back to PvE so not to hit by these mines.
FYI, the Starship Armor skill points in the T5 skill tree can protect against both physical and kinetic damage - it explicitly includes physical damage. If anyone is so scared about physical damage, they can put 9 points into the skill and be done with the crying.
and what skill is that ? for the disable what u have ? what skills u have to resist physical damage ? what consoles ? of course, just slot an aceton assimilator to resist it, and trust all ur build in the mines ? go home boy.
Funny thing i noticed that barely take damage from web mines, around 5% not more, also disable is very short for me(around 1.2 secs but not full 3) but i agree they are little annoying and could be problem for low hull ships who tails cruiser and gets in it Tbh i have much more problem with cloacked tractor beam mines, aleast i had to shoot all 3 of em to get out.
Yep, very intelligent, thanks for contributing. Escort player?
I play all classes and ship types. And I have tested the mines, so I know how overpowered they are. I don't need lame toys to complete the fail PvE content in this game.
*Sighs* You all know what? Half the time your arguments boil down to "I don't oneshot people when I hit with them, and I can't get them to hit anyway."
Fine, I know inertial dampers resist the stun, and armor reinforcements blunt damage. I know Eng team clears the stun. I know I can use TBR, PS, Grav Well, FaW and Tyken's to get rid of them. Just so you don't get the wrong idea that I don't know any better.
However, the fact remains that they are far-and-away the best choice when it comes to mines! No other mine can virtually bypass shields. They have a stun time that exceeds that of tricobalt mines. Furthermore, the damage they deal is only resisted by a t5 spec - which we would have to pay 500 zen just to be able to alter - or things that give "all damage resistance". This is my definition of OP - something that is definitely and absolutely the best choice in class. Yes, I know that by this definition, the Wells and the Bugship are OP. I don't disagree.
While we're on that subject, look at one-shot methods and compare them. Double BO requires you to invest 2 Tac Boff slots(BO2 & 3), 1 Eng Boff slot (DEM1), a Sci Boff slot(PS), a weapons slot (the DBB) and a Doff slot (Marion).
What do you need for the mines? 1 weapons slot (the mines), 1 sci/eng boff slot (a hold), and 1 tac slot (dispersal pattern). Both methods require the same tac buffs to be oneshot capable. Now, do you see how the web mines bring the bar for oneshots even lower?
This the other side of the coin - to see if something is OP, you need to consider the cost required to provide the benefits. Now, the web mines have a significantly lower cost than the previous oneshot technique. This is another reason why we say they're OP!
On second thought, why do I even bother? Not like these guys will be convinced. Practically everyone in this forum is pretty stubborn anyway.
Sure they did some damage but they are not the end all and be all of super weapons that this thread is suggesting. If you want to complain there are still one-shot combos in this game with the PSW/SubNuk/BO that knock all systems off line and kill you in under 2 seconds. Buts thats okay? There are so many other thinks wrong in this game that need attention and this Mine launcher is not one of them. It works great and any changes to it will make it worthless and thus make the entire Tholian reputation sets and gear worthless.
It is okay if it can be bound in a macro and key-bound to spacebar and countered by having 2 dedicated healers protecting you. Because those of us who heal ourselves and have to deal damage while clicking each ability as needed have no skill compared with those who automate multiple copies of heals and macro alpha strikes from cloak while being team healed for invincibility to all but SNB.
I don't see where this is a big problem. Tournaments have rules and restricted builds and the public queues are easily won with a premade even if the opponent has webmines. The only issue I can see is that PuGs can now get a kill or two vs a premade instead of going 0-15.
In what scenario are these web mines gamebreaking? I don't understand. Are great players losing matches to noobs using these? Or is it just a few kills here and there? If just a few kills then what is the big deal?
*Sighs* You all know what? Half the time your arguments boil down to "I don't oneshot people when I hit with them, and I can't get them to hit anyway."
Fine, I know inertial dampers resist the stun, and armor reinforcements blunt damage. I know Eng team clears the stun. I know I can use TBR, PS, Grav Well, FaW and Tyken's to get rid of them. Just so you don't get the wrong idea that I don't know any better.
However, the fact remains that they are far-and-away the best choice when it comes to mines! No other mine can virtually bypass shields. They have a stun time that exceeds that of tricobalt mines. Furthermore, the damage they deal is only resisted by a t5 spec - which we would have to pay 500 zen just to be able to alter - or things that give "all damage resistance". This is my definition of OP - something that is definitely and absolutely the best choice in class. Yes, I know that by this definition, the Wells and the Bugship are OP. I don't disagree.
While we're on that subject, look at one-shot methods and compare them. Double BO requires you to invest 2 Tac Boff slots(BO2 & 3), 1 Eng Boff slot (DEM1), a Sci Boff slot(PS), a weapons slot (the DBB) and a Doff slot (Marion).
What do you need for the mines? 1 weapons slot (the mines), 1 sci/eng boff slot (a hold), and 1 tac slot (dispersal pattern). Both methods require the same tac buffs to be oneshot capable. Now, do you see how the web mines bring the bar for oneshots even lower?
This the other side of the coin - to see if something is OP, you need to consider the cost required to provide the benefits. Now, the web mines have a significantly lower cost than the previous oneshot technique. This is another reason why we say
So if I understand you correctly, Cryptic finally makes something that works and is effective and has not been nerfed into uselessness and this upsets you.
So if I understand you correctly, Cryptic finally makes something that works and is effective and has not been nerfed into uselessness and this upsets you.
A lot works in this game for most classes. Try not sucking so much and you'll see.
In theory yes, just as in theory, plasma energy bolt can hit very hard. You need to spend a minimum boff slot of Lt. or higher for the dispersal patterns and the higher you go, the more it costs. All for something that may not hit your target at all. That's why I no longer have dispersal pattern spec, the cost is not worth it.
Comments
50kdmg with only tac team1 and dispersal pattern beta 2 with a bonus of 4 or 5 seconds of a perfect hold and disable, without having to spec into graviton or sub
that is useless
Not really, it came to the point of me saying that because its being made out to be a far bigger issue than it should be. Its not an issue in PVE at all, so instantly becomes negligible. These mines are the only reputation faction mines available at the moment, and in PVE they do an according amount of damage. There are about 100 other issues to address before PVP even gets a look at.
Yep, very intelligent, thanks for contributing. Escort player?
OK mate, firstly, half of what you just said doesn't make any sense. Not sure if its your grammar, spelling, or you just don't know yourself. Anyway. I did my best to translate into workable English.
Firstly, I AM A TAC. I said this previously. I use these mines on my Reman Tac, flying warbird escorts or scimitar. I also already said i still beat people without them, so thats yet another failing on your part to understand basic English. You are lucky i am even replying to you at all.
Mentioning PVE really isnt that funny as this is a PVE game. I never said mines were my main damage, you just clearly dont read very well. I have listened to people and the only one who talks any sense i will reply to in the next comment. The rest here are just people who cant accept this is a PVE game. If you want PVP focus, go play a PVP MMO. There are plenty out there.
I never mentioned builds, or 'i win' buttons, which is clearly an overreaction on your part. I guess you have been zapped by these mines once too often and are too lazy to try avoiding them.
Team dynamics....lol. Thats the funniest thing you have said. There are no team dynamics, there are only good builds and bad builds.
Of course it is not an issue in PvE. Because the Borg are stuck with repeating "Resistance is futile". Human players, on the other hand, have a habit of speaking up against things they don't deem fair. Some of them are justified, some of them are not. But these mines represent the former.
Some valid points. You at least seem to be discussing the merits rather than missing the point altogether.
The kinetic damage issue seems sensible and i hear your point on that. Thanks for being reasonable. The only issue i have with it is that its not kinetic. Its physical damage. The idea is that your ship is crushed by the web. Kinetic is blastwave and impact damage. However, the flipside of that is that i dont see why non mine attack patterns should increase their damage either. Doesnt make sense to me.
My comprimise would be keeping them how they are but making them non buffable damage from non-mine attack patterns.
I agree these mines are much better than other mines. They are also the only rep mines you can get, so i agree they should be a lot more powerful than standard mines. My point about PVE might be an old one however its still the most prominent point. This game is a PVE game. These mines are good in PVE, if they get nerfed because PVP players cant handle them, then PVE players lose out.
This is my main point, and my main issue with 'balancing'. Why should the majority of people on this game lose out because of a minority of outspoken individuals? You are right you have the right to have a say, i dont dispute that. Tthe reason i feel the pvpers on this game are so bad is because they cant do anything in moderation and have no empathy for PVE. They think its a big joke.
Its not up in the air, or in discussion. Its a fact that any blind man could see. ALL of the content is PVE. There is nothing that even mentions PVP. Unless you happen to open that obscure dropdown menu with all those other sideline options on there. No matter how many people say this is an 'old argument' it is nontheless highly relevant and always will be unless they make some major changes to pvp and bring new content.
People need to accept this. If you want a PVP MMO, there are plenty out there.
I am sure devs drop in to play for something different. They might even prefer pvp. However that doesnt change the focus of the game. PVP boot camp takes no development power, and therefore is not an issue.
Anytime i am referring to mines here i am talking one on one challenges. I would not use any examples from team matches as there are too many variables to make judgements. When i have played people that laugh these mines off, i couldnt tell you what they did, nor do i feel inclined too find out. All i know is some died badly, some of them didnt get hit and the ones that have been hit sometimes shook them off, or took very little damage. The reasons may have been that i wasnt fully alpha/omega buffed or that they have a way to heal/break it. I dont know. I dont use sci or eng, so i dont much care/know. The fact remains.
As you said the developers should and will decide. However, as they already stated that PVE endgame content is the main effort for the next episode release. So as it always has, the game is set to remain PVE focused with a PVP sideline. So justifying nerfing something that is good in PVE but supposedly 'OP' in PVP is ridiculous.
I wont reply anymore, i have made all the points i can. As you said, lets hope some devs might see this and take onboard what has been discussed.
Another person missing the entire point.
Its a PVE game. Like it or not.
These mines are good in PVE, so PVE players benefit.
Nerfing them for a few PVP players is what would be unjustified.
Want to know what is more silly?
Playing this game for PVP.
Hmm, obviously comprehension of the English language is quite low on your part.
Or it could be rage tears blurring your eyesight.
I've only been zapped 4-5 times over dozens of PvPs by them, however I've zapped many.
How can you see something that's near invisible? Oh yeah, it also shuts down all skills.
As for the final part, you are saying there is no team dynamic in a PvP system designed around 5 man teams?
Yeah, thought so.
Go on, go nerd rage cry some more in game whilst pwning noobs in PvP with your crutch.
Someone who defends a tool that is as overpowering as it is obviously lacks in skill or good build themself.
Where's the ignore function in these forums?
I believe that game balance is not about reducing the efficacy of an ability or power.
Its about ensuring that one ability does not become the clear and present winner over anything else.
Star Trek Online is only a PvE game if thats your sole focus.
Its something altogether different for a PvP enthusiast.
Other than the grind missions which I do for PvP, I hardly ever play PvE missions. The last time I played a featured episode I was two years younger. I think the last time I visited a exp. nebula mission was during Season 3. One only needs to kill so many tribbles before wanting to turn the gun on oneself.
The game has become PvE oriented only because of grind and paywalls which PWE encouraged. Make money from sales off things in C-Store was just not netting it for them. Its lucrative but risky, as it endangers the dev-client relationship and can be viewed negatively by many.
In Season 1 - 3, PvP was in its purest form as everything led-up to your PvP endgame. It was the non-PvP part of the community that complained there was nothing to do and forced the current status quo.
"These mines are good in PVE, so PVE players benefit.
Nerfing them for a few PVP players is what would be unjustified."
This really sums up the PvE mentality fairly. Where is the consideration towards balance? I have seen replies like this a thousand of times in one form or another.
Perhaps the only solution would be to remove these items altogether from PvP.
Its not like the PvE's are riding the queues right?
Or are they, knowing fully well the dilemma at hand, and counting on it?
Its about ensuring that one ability does not become the clear and present winner over anything else.
to ensure that one ability does not become the present winner over other stuff, it requires reducing efficacy in order to achieve balance
I watched your youtube video. If he is not tac buffing them then why are you guys damaging him first? Is it not so he can hit GDF? He could kill you just as quick without using the mines. You even told the victim he wasn't supposed to heal as that allowed him to survive the first attack. He also wasn't moving or doing anything else to defend against them. Overall the video is not a good display of proof.
You may want to redo the test with an engineer in a shuttle dropping only 2 mines and using tactical team and show that OP damage. That would be a better way to prove your point than a JHAS Tac buffed using a dispersal pattern.
Apologies. Perhaps I was unclear.
I am merely indicating that the design of power/ ships/ etc should start from that premise.
Obviously, if they are not working as intended, then something which is ill defined from the start needs to be passed over for balance.
"But I can blow up stuffz" is not a sound argument for circumventing that necessity.
Anything that kills them or challenges that status quo must be nerfed or removed from the game. How dare something kill them. They are uber Leet PVP Gods. Nothing cant kill "them".
Realize that from time to time Cryptic will release new items and consoles that are going to be different than what you are use to. They may seem frustrating and scary in the begining but if you try to research and experiment with things you will see that most times you can come up with something that works to overcome it, and that the new big bad thing is not so frightning after all. I know that you all are user to buzzing around in you Bug ships with EPTE running non-stop with out a care in the world, but now there are tings out there that if you run into them they might give you an ouchie. So be careful out there.
That is completely and utterly false. As has been stated many times, it is not because something is merely new and effective that people complain, but when it is clearly dominant to all other options.
Sometimes, it isn't completely clear whether something is overwhelmingly good, but that isn't the case here.
And here is an even better consideration: these mines suck the fun out of PvP.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Oh for goodness' sake - facepalm. We've just gone through the exact same discussion with someone else. Please, if you can't contribute anything to the discussion besides trotting out the same old stereotype of PvPers being dumb pricks who only use bugships and cannons and think themselves invincible, don't bother. We've heard it all before, and while there are some who fit the stereotype, many of us don't, and it is completely unfair to generalise in this manner.
Either make your logical argument that the mines are not OP, or you're just blowing hot air that is irrelevant to the thread.
After playing around with these last night as both 'miner' and 'minee', I think the worst thing is the stun. if that were eliminated, they would be survivable in a lot more cases.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I fly a Tac cruiser and use them in Arena and in Kerrat everyday. In Kerrat they work great to catch alpha strikers. Sometimes if I catch them and get a BO on them it is a kill. In Arena they only work if someone runs into them and still it does not always end up being an "insta-kill" I have been hit with a few and never been killed by them. Sure they did some damage but they are not the end all and be all of super weapons that this thread is suggesting. If you want to complain there are still one-shot combos in this game with the PSW/SubNuk/BO that knock all systems off line and kill you in under 2 seconds. Buts thats okay? There are so many other thinks wrong in this game that need attention and this Mine launcher is not one of them. It works great and any changes to it will make it worthless and thus make the entire Tholian reputation sets and gear worthless. As it stands the Space set bonuses are useless, and the 3 set bonus's from the launcher and console and beam array are not that great either. This Mine is the only item that works as intended and is useful. But we can't have that can we?
"only item that works as intended"
im sure it complements ur nooby builds but...
"not always end up being an "insta-kill""
how can you say no nerf if you know they are op
omfg community ...
Even whale-cruisers know how to run EptE these days. What does this say about people who are crying for nerf? Not fit for PvP - need to go back to PvE so not to hit by these mines.
I play all classes and ship types. And I have tested the mines, so I know how overpowered they are. I don't need lame toys to complete the fail PvE content in this game.
Fine, I know inertial dampers resist the stun, and armor reinforcements blunt damage. I know Eng team clears the stun. I know I can use TBR, PS, Grav Well, FaW and Tyken's to get rid of them. Just so you don't get the wrong idea that I don't know any better.
However, the fact remains that they are far-and-away the best choice when it comes to mines! No other mine can virtually bypass shields. They have a stun time that exceeds that of tricobalt mines. Furthermore, the damage they deal is only resisted by a t5 spec - which we would have to pay 500 zen just to be able to alter - or things that give "all damage resistance". This is my definition of OP - something that is definitely and absolutely the best choice in class. Yes, I know that by this definition, the Wells and the Bugship are OP. I don't disagree.
While we're on that subject, look at one-shot methods and compare them. Double BO requires you to invest 2 Tac Boff slots(BO2 & 3), 1 Eng Boff slot (DEM1), a Sci Boff slot(PS), a weapons slot (the DBB) and a Doff slot (Marion).
What do you need for the mines? 1 weapons slot (the mines), 1 sci/eng boff slot (a hold), and 1 tac slot (dispersal pattern). Both methods require the same tac buffs to be oneshot capable. Now, do you see how the web mines bring the bar for oneshots even lower?
This the other side of the coin - to see if something is OP, you need to consider the cost required to provide the benefits. Now, the web mines have a significantly lower cost than the previous oneshot technique. This is another reason why we say they're OP!
On second thought, why do I even bother? Not like these guys will be convinced. Practically everyone in this forum is pretty stubborn anyway.
It is okay if it can be bound in a macro and key-bound to spacebar and countered by having 2 dedicated healers protecting you. Because those of us who heal ourselves and have to deal damage while clicking each ability as needed have no skill compared with those who automate multiple copies of heals and macro alpha strikes from cloak while being team healed for invincibility to all but SNB.
I don't see where this is a big problem. Tournaments have rules and restricted builds and the public queues are easily won with a premade even if the opponent has webmines. The only issue I can see is that PuGs can now get a kill or two vs a premade instead of going 0-15.
In what scenario are these web mines gamebreaking? I don't understand. Are great players losing matches to noobs using these? Or is it just a few kills here and there? If just a few kills then what is the big deal?
A lot works in this game for most classes. Try not sucking so much and you'll see.
Your not even the OP of the post I was commenting on but you decide to chime in and insult someone with no basis... A+ Troll. What a winner.
In theory yes, just as in theory, plasma energy bolt can hit very hard. You need to spend a minimum boff slot of Lt. or higher for the dispersal patterns and the higher you go, the more it costs. All for something that may not hit your target at all. That's why I no longer have dispersal pattern spec, the cost is not worth it.