Hey, Tovan's my buddy. We used to hang out on Virinat together. And after the Tal Shiar and Elachi hit the place, we escaped together. He's been there the whole time, through thick and thin, and after the Installation 18 incident, he even stopped whining about his sister!
Dude's riding shotgun with me until the Republic takes my warbird away...
(And you're right - in-story, Tovan Khev was never part of the Imperial fleet. He was just a tech on Virinat, and would have lived his entire life without ever so much as leaving the settlement if Hakeev hadn't had other plans.)
I've come to think the devs will never let you get rid of him. Because at the least, to get around him you have to go and get additional officer slots on a character --> more money for cryptic.
Also - and I am really letting my inner trekker out of the box here to finish this rant - Tovan Khev - is that a Romulan name? Bajoran or Cardassian maybe, but I just can't imagine Commander Khev facing down Captain Picard.
What about Captain Picard v Chicken Khev. Let me tell you, you don't want to get between a Frenchman and anything garlic.
On topic...
I like that we get these boffs as part of the story. Feels a bit more complete than the Federation experience which rewards random'ish boffs at certain levels. Personally I'm inclined to keep them even with the boff limit and their imperfect traits. I'd feel a bit nasty dismissing them.
I suspect the problem is mission replays. While Tovan is only essential up to a certain point in the story, with mission replay allowing us to revisit those earlier missions getting rid of him could be problematic.
What about Captain Picard v Chicken Khev. Let me tell you, you don't want to get between a Frenchman and anything garlic.
On topic...
I like that we get these boffs as part of the story. Feels a bit more complete than the Federation experience which rewards random'ish boffs at certain levels. Personally I'm inclined to keep them even with the boff limit and their imperfect traits. I'd feel a bit nasty dismissing them.
I suspect the problem is mission replays. While Tovan is only essential up to a certain point in the story, with mission replay allowing us to revisit those earlier missions getting rid of him could be problematic.
I imagine the people who complain about not being able to remove him would also complain that those missions still act like he is there. What this means is that until there is a work around there is little reason to allow Tovan to be dismissed.
He has no part of my characters backstory. He muscles his way, unwanted, into my characters' story progression. He has the gall to order me, his Commander, around. He won't go away, even when I leave him on the ship, scrubbing out the latrines with a toothbrush (his own). You can't edit his name (seriously, just give me the ability to do that). He needs to die in a singularity core implosion.
Too bad I couldn't leave him behind on the Elachi space station. They would have committed mass suicide to escape his unending whining, saving me the bother of having to fight the Battle of New Romulus. Plus, the idea of him being trapped forever on an abandoned space station in subspace that no one can ever get to seems strangely appropriate for all the annoyances Tovan Khev has been responsible for in my Romulan games.
If you like him, that's fine, carry on using him. I hate everything about him, but I have no way to make him go away. I don't need premade BOFFs to interact with, I have my imagination for that, and all my other STO characters got along perfectly well with their crews of randomly generated BOFFs that I gradually created my own backstories for.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
Okay I am failing to see the whole storyline side of this subject. It's fine to have a storyline within an MMO but seriously? A storyline about one of your crew members? And an annoying crew member at that... When did creators get together and decide," hey they want storylines so we will give them one not about themselves going from a nobody to captaining their own ships but we will give them one about a no for good nothing npc who likes to butt in and take over the players ship whenever he gets an itch in his pixel pants". "And better yet we will make sure when they go to change his name they can't and just for good measures when they go to customize him we will make sure he has some special looking gear that only he can wear and TRIBBLE the players they won't get a chance to even have this type stuff because we will name it after him".
Lol seriously Crpytic if you are going to introduce players to a storyline atleast make the storyline about the player not some npc. Players like to be added to the game not sitting on the sideline talking about some pixel npc's sister and her troubles.
Okay, Shadow, beyond the mission string, what storyline can you come up with that will encompass both my first Rom toon (a former Imperial Fleet officer who defected after discovering Hakeev's schemes early on and almost being assassinated, and wound up on Virinat at D'Vex's invitation) and my second (a young woman who grew up on Virinat, and is only in command of a Warbird now because since the devastation of her homeworld it's all she has left)?
You can write a story about an NPC, because you can control an NPC's background. Cryptic can't even ensure your Romulan toon is in fact even a Romulan (you could be a Reman, or even a self-defined Alien of some sort).
Okay I am failing to see the whole storyline side of this subject. It's fine to have a storyline within an MMO but seriously? A storyline about one of your crew members? And an annoying crew member at that... When did creators get together and decide," hey they want storylines so we will give them one not about themselves going from a nobody to captaining their own ships but we will give them one about a no for good nothing npc who likes to butt in and take over the players ship whenever he gets an itch in his pixel pants". "And better yet we will make sure when they go to change his name they can't and just for good measures when they go to customize him we will make sure he has some special looking gear that only he can wear and TRIBBLE the players they won't get a chance to even have this type stuff because we will name it after him".
Lol seriously Crpytic if you are going to introduce players to a storyline atleast make the storyline about the player not some npc. Players like to be added to the game not sitting on the sideline talking about some pixel npc's sister and her troubles.
SWTOR made really awesome companions, they give you missions and you can romance them.
SWTOR made really awesome companions, they give you missions and you can romance them.
It's also a system that introduced Malavai Quinn and other hated companions you just. can't. get. rid. of. plus poor customization. Every system has its flaws.
At least they finally fixed the department heads bug so he won't reslot himself anymore. Even as somebody who doesn't have a Rom, it's really nice to see my boffs not playing musical chairs anymore.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Storyline is over and we rescued the sister... let me ditch him and swap him with his sister instead. or at the very least... let me mute him. He takes up a Bridge Officer slot... not a big issue (well still an issue) if you have a Lifetime sub, but for F2P folks it totally sucks that he takes up a slot. These Bridge Officers you can NOT fire/discharge should not be counted.
Cryptic could make an episode.
An episode where in the end, an optional ending would be to kill Thovan horribly off in a gruesome, most traumatic way. Death by Eppoh. Where Thovan is sent out to tag them, but ends up being roflstomped and tickled to death.
That being said I do think we should be given a free extra BOFF slot to accomadate him.
This. Tovan hasn't really bothered me that much. Just as FTP player (that status won't change for a long time, no matter how much I might wish differently.)
So, perhaps an extra BOFF slot to make up for sticking Tovan in there with Gorilla Glue?
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Eh, I think Tovan's more of a symbol of everything wrong with the tone of the Romulan faction more than anything else that bugs me. Having a free officer with his skills right from the start is nice. Sure, not being able to dismiss him is kinda annoying-but what really bugs me the most about playing Romulan at the moment is how seriously un-romulan everything is. And everything that comes out of Tovan's mouth is a constant reminder of that. The ability to get rid of him would be a welcome indication that Cryptic is making baby steps towards making the Romulan faction Romulan in more ways than pointy ears and green ships IMO.
People keep saying that. I don't get it. What is not Romulan about the Romulan Republic?
Re-watch some of the TNG/DS9 episodes which feature Romulans as antagonists. Then Compare the likes of Sela, Taris, Vreenak or Tomalak etc to Tovan Khev. That should be a very straightforward way of showing the difference between Romulans and Cryptic's 'Romulans'.
Worse - confusing "behavior of secret police/intelligence agency toward perceived enemy" with "Romulan behavior toward everyone". If all Romulans acted at all times the way the Tal'Shiar act toward the Federation, Sela would never have been accepted into Imperial service, much less risen to the position shown in TNG (or the position of Empress in The Road to 2409), as she's half-human.
You'd have to watch the Reunification epsiodes (those with Spock), too. Because from what you write, I cannot help to conclude that you confuse "military officer behaviour towards the enemy" with "Romulan behavior towards everyone".
Worse - confusing "behavior of secret police/intelligence agency toward perceived enemy" with "Romulan behavior toward everyone". If all Romulans acted at all times the way the Tal'Shiar act toward the Federation, Sela would never have been accepted into Imperial service, much less risen to the position shown in TNG (or the position of Empress in The Road to 2409), as she's half-human.
Romulan Reunificationists are in no way representative of the public at large, I suggest you re-watch that two-parter. The reunificationists are an underground movement that follows Surak's teachings and essentially aspire to be Vulcans, where the majority of Romulans most certainly do not follow Surak's teachings or want to move to Vulcan. In the episode Sela's attempt to take over Vulcan was a few ships carrying 2000 Romulan commandos between them to stand in for the reunificationists that were supposedly fleeing to Vulcan. That doesn't exacly indicate a large slice of the Romulan population.
Sela was able to reach her position because she was the daughter of a high-ranking Romulan military commander.
At any rate, the Military has been the face of the Star Empire for the majority of the Romulan's appearance on the show. Even the Scientists and Politicians we meet in the shows are military or ex-military. And it is this same military that would make the most logical sense as a faction than some splinter faction based off a small underground movement. In much the same way that The Federation faction is Starfleet and not the Vulcan Science institute or the Maquis. it just makes little to no sense to have the Romulan faction running in the exact opposite direction than what they were consistently portrayed as on the shows.
Cryptic doesn't know how to make him go away.... They'd have to redo the whole Romulan story arc, and that's not gonna happen.
How so? Why couldn't they simply un-flag his discharge immunity at the completion of the last Romulan story mission? Any future replays of those arcs would have his input as usual, regardless of whether or not he's taking up an officer slot.
Tovan is a useful officer in the beginning and not bad on the ground at any point, but eventually he becomes a waste of space. I have no need or sympathy for an arrogant NPC I didn't even choose to take along.
Elisa Flores can be dismissed, the Voth can be dismissed, everyone else can be dismissed. But not Tovan, oh precious Tovan. Hey, Tovan. Report to the cargo bay airlock, there's an issue with the tertiary EPS conduits. No, you won't need an EV suit, it's perfectly safe. I promise.
Love him or hate him he's here to stay... Cryptic doesn't know how to make him go away.... They'd have to redo the whole Romulan story arc, and that's not gonna happen. He becomes much less intrusive once you complete the story arc.
You know that would be something awful to find out that the company that created this idiot can't find a way to get rid of him.
Cryptic: Don't create some monster you can't get rid of, really sad they would make a storyline not for the player yet for an npc which is a downright slap in the face of players.
Romulan Reunificationists are in no way representative of the public at large, I suggest you re-watch that two-parter. The reunificationists are an underground movement that follows Surak's teachings and essentially aspire to be Vulcans, where the majority of Romulans most certainly do not follow Surak's teachings or want to move to Vulcan. In the episode Sela's attempt to take over Vulcan was a few ships carrying 2000 Romulan commandos between them to stand in for the reunificationists that were supposedly fleeing to Vulcan. That doesn't exacly indicate a large slice of the Romulan population.
Sela was able to reach her position because she was the daughter of a high-ranking Romulan military commander.
At any rate, the Military has been the face of the Star Empire for the majority of the Romulan's appearance on the show. Even the Scientists and Politicians we meet in the shows are military or ex-military. And it is this same military that would make the most logical sense as a faction than some splinter faction based off a small underground movement. In much the same way that The Federation faction is Starfleet and not the Vulcan Science institute or the Maquis. it just makes little to no sense to have the Romulan faction running in the exact opposite direction than what they were consistently portrayed as on the shows.
The point he was making is that there are a wide variety of attitudes seen in TNG era Romulans. Even more so when you watch Nemesis.
The point he was making is that there are a wide variety of attitudes seen in TNG era Romulans. Even more so when you watch Nemesis.
Yes, of course there is a rather wide array of attitudes, but the iconic Romulan-the kind of Romulan that set the tone for the Romulan Star Empire as a whole on the show-they were a wholly different breed than the ones that have suddenly surged to prominence in STO.
I don't have a problem with 'good guy' Romulans existing, after all we saw enough of them over the years to know they don't have a borg-hive mind. However, it does irritate me when they are suddenly retconned into being the face of the species when that was never the case, and what's more, pretending like the TNG/DS9 era Romulans that put them on the map were never really a thing to begin with and that deep down nearly all the Romulans have always been like Tovan Khev and co.
I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find Kazon Scientists or Klingon Farmers. I'm sure they'd exist somewhere-but they shouldn't be handled this way IMO. 'Good guys' has never really been the Romulan's shtick. They have been well established as the scheming. backstabbing, militaristic and xenophobic neighbors of the Federation. To set them up as otherwise seems....off.
The "unification" episodes just show you how loyal a Romulan like Pardek really can be. Never betraying his mission, or the real people of the Star Empire. An inspiration to the rest of us.
Donatra switched sides because she wanted to prevent Shinzon's genocide of humanity.
Admiral Jarok wanted to prevent a war and gave up his way of life for it.
You forget that her beef was with Genocide, not with conquest. Had Shinzon not been a raving lunatic Caligua stand in and had and/or been planning to launch a full-fledged invasion and conquest of the Federation instead of a half-baked scheme to take his personal flagship on a unsupported kamikaze run on their seat of government, who knows what would have happened.
In fact, the very first Romulan we ever saw on the screen thought about failing his mission intentionally because it could cause another long war if he didn't - but his loyalty prevented that.
I don't think its any small secret that the Romulans were completely rebooted for TNG in much the same way the Klingons were.
You are confusing the action of the servants of a brutal autocratic regime with "species character". Even humans would act just like the people you identify with Romulans if they lived in a similar regime. That does not define them, though.
You could say the same thing about Klingons, but I doubt people would identify a Klingon faction as 'genuine' if it consisted of a bunch of Klingon farmers adopting the teachings of Surak and leaving all that honor and glory nonsense behind. It's in their culture if not their blood. Similarly, Romulans aren't really very Romulan unless they are scheming, sneaky and backstabbing. Otherwise they are just what you have said-humans (with pointy ears).
The Romulan people are of course passionate (being a saner version of Vulcans), which will lead them to acts of great compassion as much as such of great anger. We see that in the Romulan story arc, and we see a militaristic, even imperialist approach to problems even with Tovan Khev - where any Federation officer would, for example, had made sure that the True Way would have been warned about the Solanae/Elachi attacks on their ships, Tovan recommended blowing the evidence up, so that the Romulan Republic has an edge with knowing about that incident. And the player of course personally executes Haakeev, where a Federation officer would have taken him into custody (had the Remans not shot the poor Iconian puppet in the fed version).
That whole arc pretty much served as a handfisted way of hammering into the heads of players how good the Republic was. Every one of the leads you get from the Tal Shiar contact on the Republic possibly acting underhanded pretty much ends up as 'The Republic/D'Tan would never do anything approaching morally questionable and the Tal Shiar are really, really evil'. On the whole it pretty much served to pretty much remove the possibility from players minds that the Republic were anything other than the 'White hats' in the story, and the Star Empire as anything other than the 'black hats'.
The people you think of as the "archetypical Romulan" are military officers, high-ranking politicians or spies first and Romulans second, because even individual Romulans are defined by what they do repeatedly.
I don't think you understand what 'archtypical' means. Almost every single Romulan we see has been defined by their relationship with either the military or Tal Shiar. As such the military really is the face of the Star Empire.
A Romulan is a Vulcan with the strongest of emotions and the will to live with them, canalizing them through loyalty instead of philosphy. That is what defines them, not "backstabbing" or xenophobia, not even militarism.
Although there is plenty of backstabbing and militarism even on the side of the "good guys" in our Romulan story. Which you know if you have played it.
And yet almost all of them exhibit some combination of backstabbing, xenophobia, militarism, arrogance etc. These are traits which are much more widely exhibited and immediately recognizable. I'd say these traits define them much more than any others that take a back seat much of the time.
Comments
Dude's riding shotgun with me until the Republic takes my warbird away...
(And you're right - in-story, Tovan Khev was never part of the Imperial fleet. He was just a tech on Virinat, and would have lived his entire life without ever so much as leaving the settlement if Hakeev hadn't had other plans.)
What about Captain Picard v Chicken Khev. Let me tell you, you don't want to get between a Frenchman and anything garlic.
On topic...
I like that we get these boffs as part of the story. Feels a bit more complete than the Federation experience which rewards random'ish boffs at certain levels. Personally I'm inclined to keep them even with the boff limit and their imperfect traits. I'd feel a bit nasty dismissing them.
I suspect the problem is mission replays. While Tovan is only essential up to a certain point in the story, with mission replay allowing us to revisit those earlier missions getting rid of him could be problematic.
I imagine the people who complain about not being able to remove him would also complain that those missions still act like he is there. What this means is that until there is a work around there is little reason to allow Tovan to be dismissed.
Too bad I couldn't leave him behind on the Elachi space station. They would have committed mass suicide to escape his unending whining, saving me the bother of having to fight the Battle of New Romulus. Plus, the idea of him being trapped forever on an abandoned space station in subspace that no one can ever get to seems strangely appropriate for all the annoyances Tovan Khev has been responsible for in my Romulan games.
If you like him, that's fine, carry on using him. I hate everything about him, but I have no way to make him go away. I don't need premade BOFFs to interact with, I have my imagination for that, and all my other STO characters got along perfectly well with their crews of randomly generated BOFFs that I gradually created my own backstories for.
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
Lol seriously Crpytic if you are going to introduce players to a storyline atleast make the storyline about the player not some npc. Players like to be added to the game not sitting on the sideline talking about some pixel npc's sister and her troubles.
You can write a story about an NPC, because you can control an NPC's background. Cryptic can't even ensure your Romulan toon is in fact even a Romulan (you could be a Reman, or even a self-defined Alien of some sort).
SWTOR made really awesome companions, they give you missions and you can romance them.
It's also a system that introduced Malavai Quinn and other hated companions you just. can't. get. rid. of. plus poor customization. Every system has its flaws.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
And he'll still be a male romulan tactical officer with crappy traits...
You know what?
There are many romulan tactical officers with crappy traits, but THIS ONE is MINE!
^P>S> got the FULL METAL JACKET reference there buddy.
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That being said I do think we should be given a free extra BOFF slot to accomadate him.
An episode where in the end, an optional ending would be to kill Thovan horribly off in a gruesome, most traumatic way. Death by Eppoh. Where Thovan is sent out to tag them, but ends up being roflstomped and tickled to death.
So, perhaps an extra BOFF slot to make up for sticking Tovan in there with Gorilla Glue?
Romulan Reunificationists are in no way representative of the public at large, I suggest you re-watch that two-parter. The reunificationists are an underground movement that follows Surak's teachings and essentially aspire to be Vulcans, where the majority of Romulans most certainly do not follow Surak's teachings or want to move to Vulcan. In the episode Sela's attempt to take over Vulcan was a few ships carrying 2000 Romulan commandos between them to stand in for the reunificationists that were supposedly fleeing to Vulcan. That doesn't exacly indicate a large slice of the Romulan population.
Sela was able to reach her position because she was the daughter of a high-ranking Romulan military commander.
At any rate, the Military has been the face of the Star Empire for the majority of the Romulan's appearance on the show. Even the Scientists and Politicians we meet in the shows are military or ex-military. And it is this same military that would make the most logical sense as a faction than some splinter faction based off a small underground movement. In much the same way that The Federation faction is Starfleet and not the Vulcan Science institute or the Maquis. it just makes little to no sense to have the Romulan faction running in the exact opposite direction than what they were consistently portrayed as on the shows.
How so? Why couldn't they simply un-flag his discharge immunity at the completion of the last Romulan story mission? Any future replays of those arcs would have his input as usual, regardless of whether or not he's taking up an officer slot.
Tovan is a useful officer in the beginning and not bad on the ground at any point, but eventually he becomes a waste of space. I have no need or sympathy for an arrogant NPC I didn't even choose to take along.
Elisa Flores can be dismissed, the Voth can be dismissed, everyone else can be dismissed. But not Tovan, oh precious Tovan. Hey, Tovan. Report to the cargo bay airlock, there's an issue with the tertiary EPS conduits. No, you won't need an EV suit, it's perfectly safe. I promise.
You know that would be something awful to find out that the company that created this idiot can't find a way to get rid of him.
Cryptic: Don't create some monster you can't get rid of, really sad they would make a storyline not for the player yet for an npc which is a downright slap in the face of players.
My character Tsin'xing
I don't have a problem with 'good guy' Romulans existing, after all we saw enough of them over the years to know they don't have a borg-hive mind. However, it does irritate me when they are suddenly retconned into being the face of the species when that was never the case, and what's more, pretending like the TNG/DS9 era Romulans that put them on the map were never really a thing to begin with and that deep down nearly all the Romulans have always been like Tovan Khev and co.
I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find Kazon Scientists or Klingon Farmers. I'm sure they'd exist somewhere-but they shouldn't be handled this way IMO. 'Good guys' has never really been the Romulan's shtick. They have been well established as the scheming. backstabbing, militaristic and xenophobic neighbors of the Federation. To set them up as otherwise seems....off.
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You forget that her beef was with Genocide, not with conquest. Had Shinzon not been a raving lunatic Caligua stand in and had and/or been planning to launch a full-fledged invasion and conquest of the Federation instead of a half-baked scheme to take his personal flagship on a unsupported kamikaze run on their seat of government, who knows what would have happened.
I don't think its any small secret that the Romulans were completely rebooted for TNG in much the same way the Klingons were.
You could say the same thing about Klingons, but I doubt people would identify a Klingon faction as 'genuine' if it consisted of a bunch of Klingon farmers adopting the teachings of Surak and leaving all that honor and glory nonsense behind. It's in their culture if not their blood. Similarly, Romulans aren't really very Romulan unless they are scheming, sneaky and backstabbing. Otherwise they are just what you have said-humans (with pointy ears).
That whole arc pretty much served as a handfisted way of hammering into the heads of players how good the Republic was. Every one of the leads you get from the Tal Shiar contact on the Republic possibly acting underhanded pretty much ends up as 'The Republic/D'Tan would never do anything approaching morally questionable and the Tal Shiar are really, really evil'. On the whole it pretty much served to pretty much remove the possibility from players minds that the Republic were anything other than the 'White hats' in the story, and the Star Empire as anything other than the 'black hats'.
I don't think you understand what 'archtypical' means. Almost every single Romulan we see has been defined by their relationship with either the military or Tal Shiar. As such the military really is the face of the Star Empire.
And yet almost all of them exhibit some combination of backstabbing, xenophobia, militarism, arrogance etc. These are traits which are much more widely exhibited and immediately recognizable. I'd say these traits define them much more than any others that take a back seat much of the time.