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so what does the dilithium mine do for small fleets?
johnnymo1
Member Posts: 697 Arc User
I keep looking at the info out on it and just can't make the connection to what it will do for small fleets. Any info or explanation on this would be great. Thanks
Post edited by johnnymo1 on
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Most smaller fleets will likely halt progress on their fleet base in lieu of building the new mine, because they'll initially think the "discounts" will make everything else easier. By the time they realize that's not the case they will already be heavily invested in the Dil mine, and because of the halted progress on their fleet base, as I said before the rift between small fleets and larger ones will grow.
If Cryptic was really serious about helping smaller fleets they would have just slashed the resource costs on the existing fleet base and embassy costs, and most of all the astronomical dilithium costs across all holdings and projects.
Gameplay wise the new UR gear will expand a rift between those with normal gear and the new UR fleet gear. It will become harder for those of us not in fleet or in a large fleet to compete for 1-3 places in events, even further reducing resources for fleet projects due to the lessened amount of place gear to sell or higher rewards for placing in the top 3.
So in the end the only ones that will benefit are the larger fleets that will have a new holding to gain fleet credits, new gear, and for those that "sell rank" in their fleet to people looking to buy gear outside of their fleet, it will further large fleet profits.
Example get abunch of Alternates, make sure they all have all the miner doffs they need and have them do mining assignments like crazy, then donate the dilithium, fleet marks, and mine provisions generated by the assignments to what ever projects you wish.
Everyone focuses on the 3 percent per tier of mine reduction in dil costs, but its the miners that will make the real difference. And possibly a few other things.
Nouveau riche LTS member
So based on the costs of upgrading a Fleet Holding similar to the Embassy, the Dilithium Mine save 5.7 million dilithium and costs only 2.5 million dilithium assuming only the XP projects are done. So the dilithium costs of the entire Dilithium Mine amount to just under the dilithium costs of the Tier 3 Recruitment/Diplomacy and Tier 3 Embassy upgrade projects. Get rid of the dilithium costs and the only major concern about the Dilithium Mine Fleet Holdings is the Fleet Marks due to the change to Duty Officer requirements for fleet projects.
What I've seen is that the rich dilithium daily is 500/day. That's nothing.
Your numbers on costs are also inverted. You could *save* potentially as much as 2.6 million dilithium if you haven't done any work on projects at all. The mine itself costs 4.5 million. (The costs in other resources are worse).
Face it, Cryptic totally failed to produce anything that would help small fleets. In fact, as the OP says, this makes things worse.
Your math is extremely faulty. A 9% discount on an 8.5 million dilith holding (IE: equivalent to the Embassy) isn't anywhere near 5.7 million in savings. Similarly, a 9% discount on a 20.8 million still doesn't get you remotely close to 5.7 million in savings.
Additionally, you've completely ignored the branch upgrades to get the various tracks tiered up, which are necessary to get the discounts.
*edit*
Yes, they are a business, yes they need money, blah blah. Doesn't mean I have to like their bad decisions.
Your Javelin deals 125417 (89066) Disruptor Damage(Critical) to Tholian Recluse. > lol
I did not base any of my math on discounts. The 5.7 million is based on the amount the Embassy Upgrades cost and the fact that there is no dilithium cost for Dilithium Mine upgrades. The 2.5 million dilithium is the cost of doing the 1200 XP each day.
Hopefully, all dilithium costs are removed from the Dilithium Mine projects before it goes to Holodeck.
In other words, you're throwing out completely irrelevant numbers that have zero bearing on the real issue at hand: the mine's cost in relationship to the amount of resources it saves.
the lower the population of a fleet you would get a discount on fleet projects.
Now to keep fleets from not working on population caps and saving them for last the more you work on a fleet progress the more expensive the upgrade project for the population cap.
There problem solved.
- Lewis Burwell "chesty" Puller
How Romulans Should Choose What Faction They Are In
How is it irrelevant? It is necessary to know the dilithium costs to get to Tier 3 Dilithium Mine in order to figure out where the payoff is. Too break even at 9% it is about 51 million dilithium. That is based off the Dilithium Mine project costing about 4.6 million dilithium and including the effect of discounts, doing just the 1200 XP projects, and including the Trade and Development upgrade projects. At 15% discount for about 4.4 million dilithium, the break even point is about 29.4 million dilithium. Assuming that upgrade projects don't include dilithium it would cost about 2.35 million dilithium at 9% and 2.27 million dilithium at 15%. So at 9%, the break even point is 26.1 million dilithium and at 15%, the break even point is 15.1 million dilithium.
Of course, the best values are 0 dilithium for at least any upgrade project and XP project and 15% for the final discount and hopefully the devs will see reason. Of course, it is possible that each fleet project will see a price change in the future and the discounts involved with the Dilithium Mine is not what dstahl was alluding to. They can always go back and change the requirements to something more reasonable across the board. Considering that it requires 51 million dilithium to break even with the current system and to reach a cost of 51 million dilithium requires 2 additional Fleet Holdings and starting right now, then it is extremely doubtful that this is the change mentioned by dstahl. This is only a minor part of the change to help small fleets if the devs think dilithium costs and a 9% discount is sufficient for the Dilithium Mine or else they are extremely deluded.
Too easy to exploit. Mentioned this in another thread.
"The problem with that is that is too exploitable. Fleets will reduce the size to only a few players and the other fleet members would contribute their resources as necessary. If a fleet member needs something, then they would join and another would leave. So there would be large fleets that are small as far as the game is concerned. Until this issue is dealt with, then it is a bad idea. "
Here is one response to it.
"1) Once you join a fleet, you can't join the same fleet for a week if you leave.
2) After joining a fleet once, if you leave and rejoin again, the next time you leave you are forbidden from joining the fleet a third time.
3) Scale all costs to the number of members by handle. A fleet with 10 different people gets lower costs than a fleet with 5 different people each with an alt.
4) Move some of the costs of building up fleet assets into "maintenance costs". Require a weekly project to be completed once the fleet hits more than X number of members. Below this threshold there is no cost, above it and everyone has to chip in or the benefits of the SB and Holdings "shut off"."
Might be some way for the devs to make it work, but it is not that simple for fleet discounts to work based on fleet size.
Tier 1 - 4%
Tier 2 - 9%
Tier 3 - 15%
Now if they just remove dilithium from the Dilithium Mine, then it will be better.
So, as my good friend & mentor, Elim Garak, would say, "Let us HAGGLE!"
Replace the time currency with a longer duration to complete the project? Now that's an idea!
I don't have the time to be charged time and gated by time in order to supply my fleet with the resources it needs. Ain't nobody got time fo dat!
Okay, so now it's not a excruciating detriment to small fleets, just a significant detriment to small fleets. This has to be tuned further or it's still not break-even for a new fleet, much less for a fleet that has put some resources into holdings.
It's not going to have a 'significant impact' on small fleets ability to progress unless the discounts are deeper, or the costs are lessened. Unless all along they really meant 'significant negative impact.'
Tier 1: 10% discount
Tier 2: 16% discount
Tier 3: 20% discount
Break even point is 17% at current pricing, and only assuming that the entire starbase and embassy haven't been touched. Still a net loss, and a really stupid move.
This. So many times, this. Dil mine fails its purpose. I wonder if they decided to change their direction with the Dil mine in order to give large fleets more content to play with rather than go through the trouble of making small fleets viable, and just haven't told us yet.
I had mentioned that too in the official dil mine feedback thread too. It's been long established that Dilithium is a key component to power systems, so in constructing the mine there should be a "build and Install Power Systems" project that requires some Dilithium, but only that 1 project and once.
Unfortunately one thing Cryptic seems completely unwilling to do is to design projects are real life. Yes Star Trek and STO are science fiction, but Star Trek has always had that "yup this could be real in xxxx years" Have the projects have a linear progression to them, for example:
Tier 1 requires 4 projects to complete before reaching Tier 2:
1) Survey surrounding areas for optimal dilithium concentration
2) Survey possible construction sites
3) Break ground on new Dilithium mine and refining installation
4) Construction of installation superstructure
Tier 1/Tier 2 Upgrade project
1) Complete Superstructure construction
Tier 2 would require 6 projects to be completed:
1) Prepare for subsystem assembly and installation
2) Install power systems
3) Install life support systems
4) Install Engineering subsystems
5) Install Medical/Science subsystems
6) Run diagnostics on Facility habitat and systems
Tier 2/3 Upgrade project
1) Transfer all operations to Facility
Tier 3 would require 12 projects to complete:
1) Complete interior crew quarters
2) Complete Medical bay and other facilities
3) Complete Science labs and other Facilities
4) Complete Mess hall and Recreation facilities
5) Complete Engineering Labs
6) Complete Mining facilities
7) Complete refining facilities
8) Complete transfer of Provisions to Facility
9) Complete transfer of Mining equipment
10) Complete transfer of refining Equipment
11) Complete transfer of facility command personnel
12) Complete transfer of mining personnel
Tier 3/4 upgrade project
1) Begin full scale mining and refining operations
Tier 4 The majority of gear and equipment should be unlocked at tier 4 which would be the highest tier
1) Begin construction on Advanced R&D facilities
2) Complete construction of R&D facilities
3) begin full scale R&D
4) Test run of R&D prototypes
5) this would be the various equipment and gear unlock projects.
Tier 4 upgrade project
1) Collaborate with Fleet shipyard to design armored dilithium cargo transport vessel
The Completion of the dilithium mine would unlock the Armored Dilithium Cargo transport in the tier 4 shipyard for construction.
Unlike the many options that come with the Tuffli, this cargo transport would only have a console for a commodities broker contact which would have reduced costs for commodities, bank, and mail access. It would only have standard transwarp destinations, there would be faction specific designs (Fed,KDF,ROM) more weapons and hull. 3 weapons fore and 3 aft with either an active or passive damage bonus when either all turrets are equipped or turret, torp, turret fore weapons, 3x turrets aft slotted.
Project cooldowns would also be scaled with tier for example:
Tier 1: 5 hours
Upgrade: 8 hours
Tier 2: 10 hours
Upgrade 13 hours
Tier 3: 15 hours
upgrade 18 hours
Tier 4: 20 hours
upgrade 24 hours
Remember this is all based off a linear project approach so only 1 project would be slottable at a time. The variety of resources needed and lack of Dilithium required to build the mine is where the real help to smaller fleets would come in because it wouldn't cost dilithium to build and would still provide the discounts to other fleet holdings and the base, although those discounts still need to be adjusted to be higher than they currently are.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=10895671&postcount=51
That is the kind of mind-set I had when I first heard about this dilithium. I could understand needing to have dil at the start, but once it got going, why need more for something that should be making enough to support itself?