Mind Games - The writer has a sick and twisted mind

davidwford

Please take that as a backhanded complement.

The story was very compelling and at times disturbing. I kind of saw the first part with the disruptor on the table coming. It was a repeat of what happened to Geordi in "The Mind's Eye". The construction of the Thalaron weapon was unexpected and I couldn't help but wonder if Sela's voice was her, the programing, or the darkness in my character's own soul speaking. The medical experiments with the Borg implants was reminiscent of thee so-called TRIBBLE "medical science". After two runs, I am glad that there are accolades for complete resistance and complete compliance.

All in all, it was a very troubling mission/story that makes one think about the ramifications of a no-win captured/prisoner scenario. Well done!

voxius

I agree with you entirely. Of all the missions this one had stood out the most. It was almost disturbing to play at times and I very much enjoyed it. Though in my opinion it was over way too quickly. I would have liked to explore a couple missions or so as a conditioned Tal Shiar operative, but instead it was just...Undone in a couple minutes. But still, definitely one of the most engaging missions I've ever played on STO.

psycoticvulcan

Watching the Khnial burn at the end was so satisfying. :cool:

elemberq333

I thought they could have done the part where you run around gathering the things you needed to break into the back room and download the files a bit more covert then just being able to trot around and leisurely gather the stuff and set it all in motion.

Other then that I enjoyed the mission, I just thought that at least a few times someone should have asked what you were doing and why you were taking things....

stongbads

Nice try, but that's not how to write a hate post. Ahh...much better, this is a proper back-handed compliment post. Was that so hard to accomplish? :P

voyagerfan9751

davidwford wrote: »

Please take that as a backhanded complement.

The story was very compelling and at times disturbing. I kind of saw the first part with the disruptor on the table coming. It was a repeat of what happened to Geordi in "The Mind's Eye". The construction of the Thalaron weapon was unexpected and I couldn't help but wonder if Sela's voice was her, the programing, or the darkness in my character's own soul speaking. The medical experiments with the Borg implants was reminiscent of thee so-called TRIBBLE "medical science". After two runs, I am glad that there are accolades for complete resistance and complete compliance.

All in all, it was a very troubling mission/story that makes one think about the ramifications of a no-win captured/prisoner scenario. Well done!

Given Tovan's apparent lack of knowledge of anything at the end of the mission (I believe he mentioned looking for a whole week for you), I doubt either he or Sela's voices were actually them. I took it as part of your subconscious mind working through the programming.

"Sela" represents the part of you effected by the conditioning. while "Tovan" represents the part of your mind actively fighting the conditioning. Neither one actually belongs to the person but is infact all in your head.

thay8472

This mission was disturbing... how?

I got to shoot Tovan

Burn some Epohh

then...

Make a Borg... it was epic... I would of signed up for the Tal shair a long time ago if i could burn Epohhs on a daily basis. Hakeeve is dead... I call dibs on being Sela's new high ranking minion.

lostusthorn

Let me be the heretic for a moment her.
How exactly is the mission different then any other mission in the game?
You get told what to do, you do it, mission progresses or is done.
If you don't, no progress.
Fundamentally, there is zero difference between been told by Sela what to do, or by some starfleet admiral that sends you out to blow up a romulan base.
You do what you are told to do, no brainwashing needed, because your only other option is to skip the mission.

temporalhavoc

I loved this mission so much. The writing and dialogue were spot-on; I've replayed it twice already to get the accolades, and it was fun every time.

dalolorn

thay8472 wrote: »

This mission was disturbing... how?

I got to shoot Tovan

Burn some Epohh

then...

Make a Borg... it was epic... I would of signed up for the Tal shair a long time ago if i could burn Epohhs on a daily basis. Hakeeve is dead... I call dibs on being Sela's new high ranking minion.

I always seemed to get Satra or Hiven. That said, shooting Tovan while you're hearing his voice telling you not to do it is a funny scenario. :P

smokeybacon90

Disturbing?

Really? This level is like Plants and Zombies in comparison to stuff like Silent Hill, Dream Emulator, Amnesia etc. There is only so much immersion that red and green dialogue choices can offer you.

Granted, it was an amusing mission that made an attempt to go against the grain. But it is still run to objective A, solve mini puzzle, go through chat, move to objective B.

bluegeek

lostusthorn wrote: »

Let me be the heretic for a moment her.
How exactly is the mission different then any other mission in the game?
You get told what to do, you do it, mission progresses or is done.
If you don't, no progress.
Fundamentally, there is zero difference between been told by Sela what to do, or by some starfleet admiral that sends you out to blow up a romulan base.
You do what you are told to do, no brainwashing needed, because your only other option is to skip the mission.

True, from a mechanical perspective there is no difference.

But from a storytelling or role-playing perspective, the set up is everything. This mission works even though the outcome is immutable because you have the illusion of making a choice and of trying to resist the conditioning.

When my character regains the illusion of free-will, giving Hakeev a bad day feels much more satisfying than if I were merely ordered to go fight him.

More missions like this (the immersive experience, not the brainwashing) would be much appreciated.

eiza

I do not see a problem with being Tal'shiar.... You get weapons that go BOOM, and who cares if they are illegal by the USS, or KDF, and RR, We all love stuff that goes boom.

Anyhow, I wish we could stay with them, and have some more inside looks at the worksings of the Tal'Shiar.

Maybe even a Episode of Indoctrination Relapse, and forced to go back to the Empress,.


Like the Above Poster said, ^_^ I wish we could be ordered to kill that Moron.... T.T He is a pain and a very bad example for the Tal'Shiar.

cosmonaut12345

My character shot his science officer immediately - as an ex-Tal Shiar officer, he knew what would happen to her in Tal Shiar custody, and thought he was doing her a mercy. He did the thalaron thing right away too - he's not some hippie to poo-poo weapons of mass destruction. The Borg thing was a little much, but by then he'd already gone too far...

dunnlang

lostusthorn wrote: »

Let me be the heretic for a moment her.
How exactly is the mission different then any other mission in the game?
You get told what to do, you do it, mission progresses or is done.
If you don't, no progress.
Fundamentally, there is zero difference between been told by Sela what to do, or by some starfleet admiral that sends you out to blow up a romulan base.
You do what you are told to do, no brainwashing needed, because your only other option is to skip the mission.

I completely agree. Some of the mission designers at Cryptic do what they can to try to hide this, but it seems all but impossible given their engine.

Missions in STO are horribly linear and hinge on extremely specific conditions. The player has no real agency in the decision making process. You either check off the grocery list of objectives or you fail the mission. The actual items on that list case to matter very quickly. Maybe if Mind Games were one of the first missions players could connect with it more.

voyagerfan9751

dunnlang wrote: »

Missions in STO are horribly linear and hinge on extremely specific conditions. The player has no real agency in the decision making process. You either check off the grocery list of objectives or you fail the mission. The actual items on that list case to matter very quickly. Maybe if Mind Games were one of the first missions players could connect with it more.

How is this different then any other MMO on the market. Nearly all of them have a "Checklist" of objectives. I have yet to see a mission in any MMO i have played that would actually play out differently based on some decision made by the player.

MMOs are not "Choose your own adventure" novels. At the end of the day you are progressing through the storyline in a linear sense, pretty much defeating various "Bad guys" along the way.

crypticarmsman

dalolorn wrote: »

I always seemed to get Satra or Hiven. That said, shooting Tovan while you're hearing his voice telling you not to do it is a funny scenario. :P

Yep - I got Satra myself. I probably WOULDN'T have choosen to resist picking up and firing the Disruptor has it been Tovan. :eek::D;)

jonsills

cosmonaut12345 wrote: »

My character shot his science officer immediately - as an ex-Tal Shiar officer, he knew what would happen to her in Tal Shiar custody, and thought he was doing her a mercy. He did the thalaron thing right away too - he's not some hippie to poo-poo weapons of mass destruction. The Borg thing was a little much, but by then he'd already gone too far...

And that, my friend, is exactly how such conditioning is supposed to work. Each step isn't such a huge thing all by itself, not when compared to what you'd just done - until you look at the whole chain afterward, and realize you've just gone completely Dark Side. At which point the person overseeing your conditioning allows you a degree of absolution, by simply deciding that what you're doing is right, or For the Greater Good, or For the Children, or whatever makes evil more palatable to you. Or, of course, the ever-popular You Were Just Following Orders...

trek21

I like the fact that if you fully resist the mind conditioning (meaning you choose every green option until you have nothing but red left, in every dialogue), you get an accolade saying "There Are Four Lights" This in addition to loving the mission itself

cosmonaut12345

In his defense, "unexpectedly shoot your friend" and "kill some small animals with evil science" is tough to resist for Romulans of a certain generation. It's like someone mind-controlling Klingons to get drunk and headbutt each other - they're already doing it by the time you get the first sentence out.

zigglegarf

Don't forget the part I like to call "Build a Borg workshop". If you've played it already you know what I'm talking about .

jestersage

Just reading these made me realize the real reason why KDF does not have enough players: It's not because KDF "is not the good guys" but "not evil enough."

kurgis1

The best part of this mission is Sela's comments when you try to beam the Epohh's out of the Thalaron chamber - I laughed. Its a very well done mission.

davidwford

thay8472 wrote: »

This mission was disturbing... how?

I got to shoot Tovan

Burn some Epohh

then...

Make a Borg... it was epic... I would of signed up for the Tal shair a long time ago if i could burn Epohhs on a daily basis. Hakeeve is dead... I call dibs on being Sela's new high ranking minion.

Much like the other players, I get holographic Veril. Maybe it is because he is Reman that she is selected. I do agree that Tovan is suppose to be the character's conscience trying to prevent him/her from becoming a catspaw for the Tal Shiar. The corruption inch by inch is exactly how some of the greatest evil acts have been perpetrated. It is called moral relativism. There are numerous books by Vietnam War Prisoners of War that describe in great detail how their captors tried to coax or corrupt the prisoners into making political statements or betray their comrades in arms.

Yes, the accolade names are very clever allusions to "Chain of Command". Some of Sela's comments are particularly humorous depending on if you capitulate or resist.

I would like to see the assimilated bridge and the corridors added to selectable warbird bridges when the player becomes a member of Omega Force.

jestersage wrote: »

Just reading these made me realize the real reason why KDF does not have enough players: It's not because KDF "is not the good guys" but "not evil enough."

Actually, there are. Most of those players are spawncampers and cyberbullies. I do agree that there does need to be a dual option gameplay for KDF. The player through their actions are either honorable (House of Martok/Worf allied) or treacherous and evil (House of Duras).

brozan

This mission was awesome. I was so into fighting the conditioning that when rescue came I didn't belive it i was thinking it was a new round of testing from Hakeev or Sela.

simly awesome

elemberq333

brozan wrote: »

This mission was awesome. I was so into fighting the conditioning that when rescue came I didn't belive it i was thinking it was a new round of testing from Hakeev or Sela.

simly awesome

The thing is though it does not matter if you try to resist the conditioning, you can do exactly what you are supposed to do with out any hesitation what so ever and it makes no difference then if you resist every chance you get...

I liked the mission however they could have made it a lot better by making resisting actually mean something other then getting different comments from Sela.

Also, as I mentioned before, the part about you gathering all the things you need to set into motion getting into the back room and downloading the files could have been done a lot better if at least someone questioned you as to what the hell you were doing...setting a fire, hiding the fire extinguisher, TRIBBLE with the borg subject, making the borg walker active...its all done as if no one even notices what you are doing and the only time anyone does anything is when you get to the transporter room. That part was very poorly done indeed.

markhawkman

elemberq333 wrote: »

The thing is though it does not matter if you try to resist the conditioning, you can do exactly what you are supposed to do with out any hesitation what so ever and it makes no difference then if you resist every chance you get...

I liked the mission however they could have made it a lot better by making resisting actually mean something other then getting different comments from Sela.

Also, as I mentioned before, the part about you gathering all the things you need to set into motion getting into the back room and downloading the files could have been done a lot better if at least someone questioned you as to what the hell you were doing...setting a fire, hiding the fire extinguisher, TRIBBLE with the borg subject, making the borg walker active...its all done as if no one even notices what you are doing and the only time anyone does anything is when you get to the transporter room. That part was very poorly done indeed.

You get accolades now. But only if you either capitulate immediately each time or resist to the end.

ryftlord

The thing I loved about this mission is that it made an experienced [not expert] MMO player forget MMO logic for a good 10 minutes.

Basically from the moment I saw my character on the table I thought "Out of the frying pan and into the 9 circles of I'm-so-screwed"

Well played Cryptic, well played.

marc8219

I replayed it just so I could kill Epohhs with Thalaron radiation again:D

psycoticvulcan

Easter egg: if you want, you can use Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation to bring the Epohhs back to life. :eek:

royalsovereign

voyagerfan9751 wrote: »

How is this different then any other MMO on the market. Nearly all of them have a "Checklist" of objectives. I have yet to see a mission in any MMO i have played that would actually play out differently based on some decision made by the player.

Oddly enough, 'City of Heroes' managed to have some decent branching story missions that gave you some choice in how things played out, with different rewards for different endings. And that was a Cryptic game, although the branching tech was developed after Cryptic had sold Paragon Studios to ... err, that other North Korean MMO company who I've blissfully managed to forget about.