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Cryptic - We really need some new decent endgame PVE
caldannach
Member Posts: 485 Arc User
I just want to post a thread as its an issue i feel has indirectly caused other problems that a lot of people are posting about already. So here goes.
This game is a PVE game. Fact. PVP is an optional side note. Now i started playing at release and got bored and left. I came back at the start of this year. So I am not sure how long the Borg STF's have been the main source of endgame PVE for this game, but i am pretty sure it has been for most of the time this game has been online.
Now that is a ridiculously long time. You offer numerous ways of customising and refining our endgame ships, captain and crew, but persist in failing to provide new ways to test and make use of all the hardwork and grinding that goes into this.
PEOPLE ARE BORED. Bored of running the same elite STF's, bored of running mine trap for Romulan marks, bored of running Azure Nebula Rescue and Vault ensnared for Nukara marks. Bored, bored, bored of the poor system of grinding reputation.
Lots of the other PVE events are much more fun, but offer little in useable reward. I no longer need fleet gear, yet i find the fleet mark events the most fun. So its counter productive for me to run those when i could be running my 2,837th Azure Nebula Rescue for those Nukara marks i desperately need for my rep projects.
Why not make ALL the PVE events give a choice of marks? The people could vary the ones they choose hugely. People might actually queue for some of the ones that are cool but never get played such as Breaking the Planet.
I feel this is even more prevalent now the expansion has released. Usually i would only have one character, and that character has T5 Romulan and Omega reputation. However i now happen to LOVE playing my Reman. Yet i face the daunting task of opening up T5 rep on all 3 factions now with that character.
Now i understand and respect that PW requires a profit margin, and of course they should. It couldn't be any other way. However, if making this reputation system so painful to see to fruition is a way to boost profit i fail to see how. I fail to see any reason for not revamping the mark system and having it the way it is currently. It makes no sense. You cant even say its in keeping with the story. Azure Nebula rescue is a Romulan mission that now gives Nukara marks. It used to give Romulan marks. Clearly, rather than make some new Nukara themed PVE/STF you have decided to tack it on to already existing PVE. I really find this disappointing.
Why not make some kinds of missions that are generic with random parts? For example....an event that is a generic defense or attack, but the location, the enemy type and some of the objectives are all randomly generated? It surely couldnt be that hard to do. Similar to how fleet defense and starbase incursion has a random faction attacking your starbase. Just a bigger scale and system for it.
Why not have some kind of tower defense ground mission? Waves of enemies, etc etc. It is a style that has become very popular in a lot of other MMO and FPS games, because its very fun. Defending a defense position on a colony, or boarding a ship after it has been disabled and fighting through to the bridge. All randomly generated enemy faction/locations/sub objectives? I think something like this could help make ground missions more popular.
And finally, some new elite PVE content. I have no ideas for this but i am sure there are some flying around Cryptic HQ. Well you need to get them out sooner rather than later as once the freshness of Legacy of Romulus wears off, people will be back to grinding the same PVE missions on their 50 Romulan as they were on their 50 Federation/Klingon. Then they will get bored and stop playing, as most have had their fill of that already.
This really is the main issue with this game as far as i can see, the PVE content. After all it is a PVE game. PVE is the core. Yes there are lots of bugs at the moment but they aren't game breaking. I am talking progressive development and making the game continue to be enjoyable for all. If all you are doing is aiming at newer players, then shame on you Cryptic.
However i am not trying to be negative, i am not whining, i am just trying to be constructive. Apart from a few bugs you have done a great job with the new content, now please in the coming months starts to release some new GOOD missions. Whoever your current mission designer is needs to stop and think. The new Elachi missions are really underwhelming. Very disappointing. People want to use the ships they have paid lots and lots of money for. Shuttle missions can be fun and ground mission i enjoy, but the priority should be on what makes this game, which is space combat.
To summarise - We need the mark system revamping and some new PVE missions, both normal and elite. Think about it, having the Borg mission as the only elite content for the last 3 years? Thats like playing BF3 and not getting any new maps for 3 years. The game would be a blip in history, servers shut down and mindwiped from people's memory. Most MMO's have far more endgame content than this game. Even though i love this game, you are lucky this game has lasted so long in that state. Make the most of it while it has momentum!
Anyway i have probably written too much, i thank anyone who takes time to read my thoughts. Hopefully a developer can at least get some ideas and realise the PVE needs a shake up.
This game is a PVE game. Fact. PVP is an optional side note. Now i started playing at release and got bored and left. I came back at the start of this year. So I am not sure how long the Borg STF's have been the main source of endgame PVE for this game, but i am pretty sure it has been for most of the time this game has been online.
Now that is a ridiculously long time. You offer numerous ways of customising and refining our endgame ships, captain and crew, but persist in failing to provide new ways to test and make use of all the hardwork and grinding that goes into this.
PEOPLE ARE BORED. Bored of running the same elite STF's, bored of running mine trap for Romulan marks, bored of running Azure Nebula Rescue and Vault ensnared for Nukara marks. Bored, bored, bored of the poor system of grinding reputation.
Lots of the other PVE events are much more fun, but offer little in useable reward. I no longer need fleet gear, yet i find the fleet mark events the most fun. So its counter productive for me to run those when i could be running my 2,837th Azure Nebula Rescue for those Nukara marks i desperately need for my rep projects.
Why not make ALL the PVE events give a choice of marks? The people could vary the ones they choose hugely. People might actually queue for some of the ones that are cool but never get played such as Breaking the Planet.
I feel this is even more prevalent now the expansion has released. Usually i would only have one character, and that character has T5 Romulan and Omega reputation. However i now happen to LOVE playing my Reman. Yet i face the daunting task of opening up T5 rep on all 3 factions now with that character.
Now i understand and respect that PW requires a profit margin, and of course they should. It couldn't be any other way. However, if making this reputation system so painful to see to fruition is a way to boost profit i fail to see how. I fail to see any reason for not revamping the mark system and having it the way it is currently. It makes no sense. You cant even say its in keeping with the story. Azure Nebula rescue is a Romulan mission that now gives Nukara marks. It used to give Romulan marks. Clearly, rather than make some new Nukara themed PVE/STF you have decided to tack it on to already existing PVE. I really find this disappointing.
Why not make some kinds of missions that are generic with random parts? For example....an event that is a generic defense or attack, but the location, the enemy type and some of the objectives are all randomly generated? It surely couldnt be that hard to do. Similar to how fleet defense and starbase incursion has a random faction attacking your starbase. Just a bigger scale and system for it.
Why not have some kind of tower defense ground mission? Waves of enemies, etc etc. It is a style that has become very popular in a lot of other MMO and FPS games, because its very fun. Defending a defense position on a colony, or boarding a ship after it has been disabled and fighting through to the bridge. All randomly generated enemy faction/locations/sub objectives? I think something like this could help make ground missions more popular.
And finally, some new elite PVE content. I have no ideas for this but i am sure there are some flying around Cryptic HQ. Well you need to get them out sooner rather than later as once the freshness of Legacy of Romulus wears off, people will be back to grinding the same PVE missions on their 50 Romulan as they were on their 50 Federation/Klingon. Then they will get bored and stop playing, as most have had their fill of that already.
This really is the main issue with this game as far as i can see, the PVE content. After all it is a PVE game. PVE is the core. Yes there are lots of bugs at the moment but they aren't game breaking. I am talking progressive development and making the game continue to be enjoyable for all. If all you are doing is aiming at newer players, then shame on you Cryptic.
However i am not trying to be negative, i am not whining, i am just trying to be constructive. Apart from a few bugs you have done a great job with the new content, now please in the coming months starts to release some new GOOD missions. Whoever your current mission designer is needs to stop and think. The new Elachi missions are really underwhelming. Very disappointing. People want to use the ships they have paid lots and lots of money for. Shuttle missions can be fun and ground mission i enjoy, but the priority should be on what makes this game, which is space combat.
To summarise - We need the mark system revamping and some new PVE missions, both normal and elite. Think about it, having the Borg mission as the only elite content for the last 3 years? Thats like playing BF3 and not getting any new maps for 3 years. The game would be a blip in history, servers shut down and mindwiped from people's memory. Most MMO's have far more endgame content than this game. Even though i love this game, you are lucky this game has lasted so long in that state. Make the most of it while it has momentum!
Anyway i have probably written too much, i thank anyone who takes time to read my thoughts. Hopefully a developer can at least get some ideas and realise the PVE needs a shake up.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Post edited by caldannach on
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Comments
The various reputations should stay separate, IMO. The main multiple choice boxes are really just a stop gap because there isn't enough content.
And instead of having the same starbase, you can change it to different faction bases; Klingon, Romulan, Federation, Dominion, Borg, Undine etc.
You know what's actively engaging and constantly in a state of flux? PvP. Seriously. PvP is an endless source of activity for me, because PvP doesn't allow you to get complacent. PvP tests the limits of your craft (which is why it's often 'required' for one to obtain a C-store, Fleet, or Lockbox ship to really make it in competitive PvP). PvP doesn't automatically award victory to the person carrying the most bling, the way PvE does.
The problem PvP has, as legendaryblade stated, is that it's woefully underdeveloped. For all intents and purposes, the PvP system is essentially the same as when it started, though with a few sparse changes/additions. Yet there are people who have been PvPing since the beginning, because it will never really get 'boring'. You might not like the uber-competitive nature of it, but that's different from it being 'boring'.
This game could be so much more interesting with a tiered PvP system that reflects your character's performance against other PvPers, way more PvP maps and modes, and better balancing of the abilities.
William Sinclair, USS Andalusia
Exploration Division, Alpha Squadron
12th Fleet, United Federation of Planets
=/\= ==================== =/\=
As much as people would like to think their foundry missions are on par with the developer produced ones, and even as much as the developers would like this to be true, it simply isn't. Foundry missions simply don't have the rewards incentive or the structure of the endgame type PVE STF missions, what few there are. In short, i don't like them, nor should i have to like them to keep playing my character. Nowhere in any literature does it say 'STO - Player written endgame content'. Because it doesnt say this there is no reason to think it wouldnt be the developers churning out new stuff. Frankly, the PVE endgame is a joke.
Also, i am sorry, most of us don't care about PVP. Its not a PVP game, as much as some people would like it to be otherwise. Its a PVE game with a small PVP feature tacked on for sheer interest. That much is clear.
I really don't see why people come to this thread to make defense for the lack of endgame content. Either they are speaking for the sake of it to just to disagree, like so many people on these forums, or they genuinely believe, that 5 space and 4 ground missions, are perfectly acceptable as endgame content over a period of more than 3 years. Ok if we count the lame crystalline entity fight, then it totals at 6 space and 4 ground missions. Thats 10 missions. Half of which last less than 10 minutes. Thats like running WoW for 3 years with 2 or 3 heroics and no raids......think about it.
I know that the more you play a game the more chance you have of getting tired of it, but at least they could give us a fighting chance to not get bored so easily.
I mean there is a story arc in there, right?
the borg STF's are good. Good missions with good rewards they put the other fleet actions to shame.
We really need similar missions against other enemy factions with marks and Dilith rewards like the omega missions.
tagging epohhs every day has close to put me off this game.
The stuff I play is mostly Azure Nebula, Vault Ensared, Fleet Alert, Foundry Mission Betrayal of the Empire (super quick and easy source of 2100 dil and 21000 fleet credits), Kathless Expanse, Yoa Nebula, and Choas nebula.
In the future I'm going to focus more on the new Foundry Missions, more Klingon plotline missions.
Build does matter even for normal STF missions. That said it is pretty hard to fail ISE even on elite. Perhaps you would share your build and skill points with us?
- Judge Aaron Satie
Yes it is a fact that PvP takes up less than 1% - same people playing all the time. It is almost impossible now for new players to be anything but target practice for the elites.
The rep system has made the old PvP way above the level of the rest of the games players - and the coming mining addition with super armor and turning consoles will put the final nail in PvP's coffin. The passives from rep alone make the power output of a Tac escort insane
Hitting T4 in everything you can easily do close to 15,000 DPS on a constant basis - vs - maybe 3000 max for the avg player in STO
A new player PvE only with top gear coming into a PvP match and meeting a elite player in a Jem Bug will be wiped out in 3 seonds Max - no joke.
It's more likely he was pugging and the odds were against him.
Now, this is just an idea, but I would really like to see STF equivalents for MACO and Honor Guard. MACO and Honor Guard missions would be for Fed and KDF respectively. MACO/HG should be dealing with exclusive threats to The Federation/KDF. You could devise a few scenarios on these premise:
-A full out Mirror/Tholian/Dominion/etc Incursion into the heart of Fed/KDF space. Hit close to home, make it personal. You could have space scenarios and ground scenarios. Could you imagine fighting enemies in the halls of ESD/SFA/Imperial City/KA?
-Expand on New Romulus. The galaxy is full of meanies, especially the Elachi and Tal Shiar. MACO and HG should be called upon to defend New Romulus, and Tau Dewa in general, from either the Elachi or Tal Shiar incursions.
-You could have MACO fight KDF incursions, and HG fight Federation incursions into sensitive areas. Let's put more emphasis on the war between these two.
You could even expand Omega Force STFs if you really wanted to.
-Where is the joint assault on the Undine? Why do the Undine not attack like the Borg do? Consider possible missions where you have to fight Bioships and close fluidic space vortexes.
-Why are we not defending home worlds from Borg Invasions? The Borg have done this so many times in the past, where they have rushed past entire fleets and defenses just to target homeworlds. First contact and Best of Both Worlds anyone?
None of these events need to be limited to 5 man events either. I wanna see 10 man, even 20 man events where we are dealing with extreme and dangerous situations.
On a side note, they could even expand fleet events to include The Borg and the Undine.
===============
Some people may like these ideas, some may not. I am sure some people could think of some reasons why some of these ideas may not work, and thats fine. The fact is, there are many event ideas just waiting to be hatched. The means to do it is there. The game assets are there. All it needs is demand and desire, and a lot of pestering.
===============
Also, if Cryptic wants to make ground combat viable again, they need to up the rewards for ground missions. As it stands, I much prefer Sace STFs than ground STFs. Why do ground STFs (which take longer) than a quick and easy Space STF? Either nerf rewards for Space STF, or beef up the rewards for ground STF. Something is wrong when players can ignore an entire gameplay mechanic, and almost never use it in end game. Make ground worth something.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
Yeah, I like this idea, a 5-man becomes a 25-man, not to mention the cool part of bringing your BO's to the fight.
I say larger scale because then the vets and the newbs will be mixed and some training can occur.
However, there's a problem that's occurred since launch. The original structure, and intent, was that gear wouldn't matter. However, this has changed drastically with the sets, the bonuses, the consoles, and so on. Future PvP design needs to take this into account in order to not drive off everyone who tries it the first time. A goal, along with a PvE aspect for those PvE'ers who like to pwn the hell out of NPCS, should be part of it.
I love the epic scale of the romulan missions, and many of the newer missions. Some of the older fed missions suck, but I think they should stop trying to fix those, and move on and continue with far better missions.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
Considering the slow pace at which Cryptic releases new missions (which also always get very boring within a few days) I don't think this is the route this game should take. PvE missions in this game are either way to easy or they are (temporarily) infested by overpowered enemies which constantly oneshot players left and right until the mission is nerfed into casual difficulty due to a massive forum rage. The Devs never managed to implement an approppriate level of difficulty in this game which also takes all the new gear and traits into account. There is simply no reason to grind all this stuff as long as ESTFs can be easily completed with white gear only. Hell some people even managed to kill the Tactical Cube in a team of shuttlecrafts (before those were banned from the queues).
As it stands, reputation traits and equipment are for PvP, the only game mode where it matters what you bring into the fight. As long as Cryptic releases new ships and gear PvP will always attract players to test them in a real battle. PvE missions on the other hand become null and void as soon as a player has finished the attached reputation which then leads to the feeling of some people that there is nothing left to do. I would therefore welcome an update of the PvP content combined with some real rewards before any new PvE missions are made. Hopefully this move will also attract those players which have neglected the PvP part of the game before.
Will you still be here by then ?
Look mate, I don't know what state of mind you were in when you wrote that stuff above , but I'm going to assume that you can count to more than 5 (which is the number of PVP maps we have available) .
Those 5 maps don't mount too much (in more ways than one) next to the Fleet actions , STF's , reputation-mark missions , shuttle missions -- all of which is by Cryptics definition "end game content" .
Yes it is .
Not everyone likes to speak in generic terms or in the name of everyone else .
More often than not ppl speak for themselves .
That's a statement of a single person ... that is usually repeated by a large number of folks all speaking for themselves .
Many PVP-ers and PVE-ers will agree that a general balance pass is over due , instead of the tiny fixes that come about (usually bey the request of the PVP crowd -- for their own gain , not for the gain of the whole population of the game) .
That's not true as Omega gear benefits both PVE and PVP players (last time I checked) .
And don't base your arguments on a bunch of experiments of a few bored ppl .
A handful of ppl in shuttles don't exactly represent the whole of the STO community .
And some PVP-ers wonder why they are labeled 'elitist' .
(also slightly ironic is the fact that the half-truth in your statement will keep ppl away form PVP)
the problem is, that STFs are ruling, and it seems with the new missions, cryptic did not grasp the concept why they are successful. STFs are fairly easy for a pug, but not too easy (best described is ISE, with its forgiving optional timer, which is really easy to beat, but you still feel sometimes challenged), and you have to use general tactics for it
the new content that was released, was pretty much everything but that. it was either superhard for noobs (HSE or No Win) or boring and easy as hell (while you cant make it go away faster like ISE or any STF that you can finish faster than the optional) like azure or CCN (even CCE is just a pewpew fest, no tactics required)
we need more missions like no win, that require tactics, can be hard, but also, it needs to be a bit adjusted, should include a bit more movement, and that movemement should have a tactical element (like CSE, knowing whent to leave a cube with mrrml, or kase if you are doing 4/1, when to leave 3 on the left, etc)
10k DPS Vesta threads: 1; 2
You forgot Kerrat and the Fed vs. Fed / KDF vs. KDF aquivalents. Also I think only ESTFs can be considered true endgame content because many of the other missions you mentioned can be played long before a player reached lvl 50.
Well, NPCs don't tend to ask for nerfs on the forums. That is why imbalances in PvE missions mostly get ignored for a long time as long as they favour the players, like the tricobalt mines. In regard to new missions I simply have no faith in Cryptic to do it right in terms of difficulty. Heck they didn't even manage to implement a system which makes all classes necessary in PvE. Instead we have just a high demand of DPS, combined with occasional cc-powers.
They do, but my point is that you don't necessarily need them to complete these mission. When it comes to PvE, endgame gear is at the moment just a collection of unnecessary fancy stuff.
This was just an example to support my statement on the low difficulty of STO's endgame content.
I already wondered if I would get the usual 'elitist' accusation. Everytime a PvPer (which is not really a accurate description by the way because all of us also play PvE missions) states his opinion there is always at least one guy who starts an 'DEM ELITSTS!!1' rant.
(or leave existing ones and add a shotgun that can not be adapted to )
Ironically, that is how STF's used to be from what I've seen, missions that could in total last up to 2 hours or something.
Then came the complaints and they were chopped apart.
I have to say I do like the endgame STF's, the space ones that is. I've never bothered with the ground ones. I also really enjoy Minetrap, Colony Invasion and the new Station defence mission battling Elachi saboteurs.
Its unfortunate that theres also missions such as "The Big Dig" and "Breaking the Planet" which seem limited in appeal. I believe I've only managed to get one game of BTP in the 6 weeks I've been playing the game. Upon talking to fellow players the opinion is that those missions are poor and not many people bother or maybe its the 20 player requirements. So maybe Cryptic could replace those with alternative content.
Theres also the other problem that so many of these single mission PVE games only become available to the player endgame. I don't mean STF's they should remain endgame. I mean content such as Starbase 24, Gorn Minefield and later Klingon Scout Force which are the only PVE missions on offer to low/middle level players. Not counting BTP and the Mirror Invasion event or Fleet missions.
It would also be of value to introduce early level "tutorial style" STF's so players wouldn't go into an STF without at least having some idea of what to do. I've already seen new players get blamed for a mission going awry and end up hassled in chat be put off doing another STF for all time. Thankfully this never happened to me because a Fleetmate coached me through my first STF and besides I have a thick skin and couldn't care less if everything goes down the toilet, because its only a game.
More single mission non-story PVE content needs to be added to the game at various levels not just endgame. As it is at present some players rush to 50 to get to unlock the extra content and then become burned out on the same bunch of limited missions and start wondering what else the game has to offer, which can lead to player stagnation.
The problem is also not simply the limited missions themselves, its having to repeat them over and over due to the very poorly implemented reputation system. Waiting 20 hours for projects to complete is an artificial mechanic created to ensure the player base continue to grind and play the game.
Now everyone expects to grind in an MMO but what Cryptic need to realise is that more and more players are becoming so frustrated with grinding rep that they're starting to limit themselves to doing it on only one or possibly two characters. This of course will damage players desires to experiment with rolling new characters and trying different factions. Surely this only serves to limit the prospects of the game.
Now regarding PVP because it has been mentioned. I for one would like to play PVP but not in its current state. I have the greatest respect for players who spend a great deal of time planning builds/strategies and perfecting their skills. However I would like to play casual based PVP against someone of equal ship class, career and gear to know that at the very least I had a fighting chance in a game and not be trashed 15 times straight by someone owning the best of gear and a "I win" Jem'Hadar attack ship.
PVP needs to be broken up into, Casual/Easy/Balanced, Normal and Elite/Custom. Those who want to use the very best of gear and ships can still do so in the Elite/Custom category. PVP should also be better promoted by the devs by introducing decent rewards for PVP participation and introduce some form of actual territorial control for waring factions. If PVP actually offered more and fairer ways for players to participate the PVP user base would obviously increase.
Anyway apologies for the lengthy reply. Just wanted to add my thoughts on the matter.
"You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon, taH pagh, taH be"
Well I'm sure that your opinion seemed perfectly reasonable to you .
I did not forget Kerrat .
PVP has 2 space maps , 2 ground maps + Kerrat . That = 5 .
Fed vs. Fed was a necessity (altho as of now Fed VS KDF seems to be booming) and KDF vs. KDF never happened . Like almost ever .
Before the reputations / Fleet Marks came along that might have had merit , but as Rep Marks are "endgame content" by design , the missions that are attached to gaining said marks are "endgame content" by default .
I'm not saying that I like this -- as I see many of said missions as boringly repetitive , but it is what it is .
You'd be surprised .
Just the other day someone asked for a BoP nerf .
No reason given .
That sure sounded like an NPC to me . :P
I think they still manage to do that ... if only by mistake .
Take the re-introduction of Crystalline Entity . You could get 1st place even with a cruiser ... , which to me indicated that it was balanced in such a way that you did not NEED to be in an Escort to get 1st place .
Surely this was an achievement on Cryptic's part .
Then they took it away , "tweaked" it , and put it back completely broken .
This is what Cryptic does .
And this (IMHO) is what they will do to Ground Combat once they "revamp" the kits .
Ok , that's your opinion .
Mine is different .
I see the Omega stuff as a necessity for newbies .
I see the Omega gear as "broken" (as it excludes the use of Plasma based weapons form PVP) .
I see the Omega gear as problematic -- you get more pleasant experience remodulating in 2 seconds instead of 5 , but the whole point of that gear (in PVE) is to make the running of the same 8 STF's more easy .
Basically you used to bust your butt only to get gear to bust your butt all over again but more easily .
And lastly , considering the crazy amount of itemization in this game , Endgame actually suffers from a distinct lack of options (with the Omega gear being the 'go to' gear for both PVP-ers and PVE-ers) . That too is an issue .
But that statement can be seen as contemptuous , when speaking of a game that over 90% of it (on the whole) is PVE .
From my POV , the issue is not that PVE is difficult (or not difficult) -- the issue is that the same 90% of the game teaches nothing about the teamwork that is required in the other 10% of the game (which includes PVP , STF's , and other Marks related gameplay. Yes , this even includes tagging Eppohs
Think of it in reverse .
Someone comes to the PVP forums , tries to make a valid point , but while doing so he also happens to TRIBBLE all over PVP in general .
Now if he's lucky , some will address his point ... -- but are you sure that none will "comment" on his general opinion of PVP ?
Don't help they all seem the same.