test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
dhc vrs beams
maicake716
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
so i got told that beams do more dps then dhc in pve.
which doesnt make any sense given my time in pvp.
so which is it?
which doesnt make any sense given my time in pvp.
so which is it?
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Do you even Science Bro?
Post edited by maicake716 on
0
Comments
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
1) It's true to an extent.
2) It requires a fairly specific build.
3) Most of the DPS output is AoE and comes from constant FAW spam, with TAC buffs, DEM, A2B and several other methods of mitigating drain as well as RomPlas BAs with Embassy consoles, Experimental Array, etc.
So ultimately, yes, it does technically higher DPS in PvE as BFAW is hitting multiple targets nearly all of the time vs. DHCs which are limited to 45 degree arc and 3 targets max with CSV.
The build link above is legit, I've run with him and he does in fact parse as high (20k to even 26k DPS) as he says he does (as do quite a few of these specialized builds I've seen).
Do you even Science Bro?
It's semi-doable, but (its numberin' time!!!)...
1) You have to make even more of a glass cannon than his cruiser, with lower base mitigation and less survivability tools.
2) You still will be unlikely to hit 20k+ plus sustained DPS regularly.
3) You will always be limited to 3 targets, that you may or may not be able to keep in arc.
4) Suffer worse DPS drop off due to range issues. Even when tryin to fight at point blank range, you lose "DPS" while moving from targets to targets. Also point blank range is bad for hitting multiple targets with CSV.
The DHC/DC is still better at burst and has the real single target DPS output, but if you are running with 5 super-tuned ships for STF DPS running (ave: 4 to 5 mins per STF) you're going to be hard pressed even in the most maneuverable of escorts to get your DHCs on enough targets all of the time to hit the same numbers.
Most super-tuned PvE DPS escorts probably fall in the 10k to 14k DPS range, with max highs in the 18k range.
Ya you can go faster. Seriously... just get to the stuff that needs blowing up fast and kill in before Mr Faw racks up a ton of "DPS" off it. lol
Beams have the better pve aoe skill... its true.
The thing is WHO cares what your Damage Per Second is averaged out over a STF or a PvP match.
We are pvpers and Forcing people to respawn is sort of what we should care about.
Honestly there is a lot of people that would be well served to just delete there parsing programs, there not helping them. lol
There is only one question that you need to ask yourself in regard to a PvP build...
"How long will it take me to deliver More dmg then my target has hull"
Now if the answer to that isn't fast enough to negate peoples healing cycles... then you have problems.. The kind of problems that COULD possibly lead you to the terrible Parser philosophy that may well see you racking up 1mil+ dmg on a score board... and still loosing matches. lol
{on the note of cycles... if people would watch buffs on targets a little more they would become much more effective. I still see people that consider themselves to be good pvpers who are obviously not paying to much attention to who they are shooting at.}
At this point if you are flying a non support ship... and honestly even if you are. There is no real excuse to not have a build that can have a stradagy to burst someone down. Now not every build will be able to do that every 30s... but really even a healing build can be setup to be able to deliver that "alpha shock" every 3min or so.
I agree with most of what you said, especially for PvP.
However:
Seriously... just get to the stuff that needs blowing up fast and kill in before Mr Faw racks up a ton of "DPS" off it.
This doesn't really work in STFs with the raw hull of most targets, with BFAW running constantly. The more FAW boats there are running this the harder it actually becomes for the DHC set up.
The thing is WHO cares what your Damage Per Second is averaged out over a STF...
People who want to complete stuff faster? :P
Seriously, I wouldn't build this myself but there is something to be said for completing 3 Elite STFs in 15 minutes so I can go grind my face on all of the other stuff I need to grind.
Well I don't have any issues there with my cannon boats... well some of my ships have a beam for an overload... still mostly cannons. I'm pretty sure where both in DPS-11,000.
Honestly the only PvE beam cruisers I have seen rack up more dps then my hardcore dps builds are ones with ALL the pve gear.
Full Plasma builds... with ROM no power beam. In cruisers that can slot 3-4 embassy consoles. They also almost always have the one rom torp so they can load the console for another +9% plasma dmg.
I don't think anyone running none PVE plasma beams will out dmg the top cannon build flyers.
I think my infected record is around 18k. I have heard of people topping 20k in a beam cruiser... but I have yet to be in the same instance as any of them.
Any starship build is only as good as her captain. Keeping the ship at the 'right' position, pointed in the 'right direction', and using the 'right powers at the right time' all play a role in damage.
Beam arrays in PVE are optimal for most uses.
The general view is the smaller the field of view, the higher the damage potential. Higher damage requires better piloting.
And don't get me started on the proper use of powers & abilities.
Fire all sounds great, but the reality is drop shields first. then fire torpedoes. Most players waste the potential of their torpedoes by firing them at the wrong time. Getting that timing right can more than DOUBLE the average DPS.
Now imagine the potential when you're aligned correctly, using powers in correct order and delivering your weapons payload in a specific sequence. This is the difference between a 3K attack, and a 18K attack using the same ship build.
My Two Bits
Admiral Thrax
Do you even Science Bro?
If this is really a PvP v. PvE epeen contest, just tell those FAW cruisers to thank DDIS for the double A2B tac cruiser.
Also, let me say right friggin here that if A2B gets nerfed it will be all the PvE threads talking about completion times for STFs that does it, even though some will come with torches and pitchforks for anybody who questioned A2B's effect on PvP ability cycles.
/partisan off
Since we brought up getting PvE DHC damage up, what about maximizing the "down time" (between CRF cycles, traveling to objectives, etc.) with the Rom battle cloak. These days recloak is getting shorter while the buff is getting longer.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Personally, I don't see it happening or being needed.
Even the guys running these "cruisers" have no illusions that their ships are made of glass when it comes to absorbing damage.
So there is a trade off, which funnily enough only comes into play if they don't run with other super-tuned DPS ships with low mitigation.
Option 1) Run with all super tuned DPS glass cannons. Kill stuff before it can even fight back.
Option 2) Take super tuned DPS glass cannon into ESTF with subpar builds. Stuff lives longer, you die more.
Neither. Attack Pattern Beta does more damage than anything in an ESTF the weapons used are just a detail.
Fact of the matter is a parser program simply tells you the total amount of damage dealt in your combat log with absolutely no context about it. By context I am referring of course to the following:
1) Who hit the target with -resist debuffs and how many are stacked upon it
2) Who immobilized the target granting you stupidly high accuracy overflow
3) Did the target you just dealt damage to instantly heal it and/or change shield facings
Also a premade designed to push a single tactic to it's fullest will always make the average PuG look terribad.
While I am happy to say the beam boats of all kinds can do great things in contributing to STFs, we shouldn't write off escorts just yet.
A good deal of the FAW damage is wasted.
There is mitigation in PVE, however the combat log does not recognize it, and counts that damage as dealt.
The parser doesn't account for useless damage that is instantly regenerated (such as any damage done to cube or upper probes in Cure before lower probes are destroyed).
I think a good balance of FAW ships and CSV ships are the way to go to get maximum effectiveness in PVE, especially if everyone is spreading around APBs.
Attack Pattern Beta works in PvE. In PvP, it does not. Thanks TacTeam!
In PvP DHCs outclass beams so hard it isn't even funny. "DPS" is meaningless, as an escort you want to be running at low throttle most of the time anyway so you can front-load your important buffs for just the right moment. Equally skilled healers know when to expect incoming spike which is why the sudden and 'bursty' nature of DHCs is even more valuable.
I tried a game in the lowbie Rom queues last night. The ship had random quest gear and I forgot to slot one of my BOffs. Just through rotating BC and APA + TT I had eighteen kills and three+ times the output of everyone else on the map put together just from DHC burst. The only time I died to the poor beam Mirandas was when one of their friendly Golfballs got a good snare on me.
Yes there are nasty Tac snoozers out there, but for the most part these ships build around their limitations to imitate the escort model. Good in duels or against light-sustain teams though.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
most of all cross healing makes organized teams too much more powerful then a pug, and drives away potential players. a lot of people wont be inclined to organize, or know how, and that makes pvp unapproachable for a large number of people. the VAST majority dont want to pvp, because they cant just que up and have fun doing it. not when the other team has even the slightest amount of team work. its just asking to much from the common player, and we can ridicule them as much as we want for it but if we dont have them around there is no more pvp for anyone.
id nerf ES's effect in half, and lower its duration to 15 seconds. also no hull heals can be sent to a target with more then 50% health, and no shield heals will have an effect if the targets shields are above 50% total capacity. no outside heals can repair a ship past 50% in anything. clears can still be cast on others at any time. starships healing, and healing each other, is absurd enough already.
with all the power creep, it makes spike more important. but the biggest reason for that is cross healing present on top of it. it totally negates any built in disadvantage an escort has. if there was not so overpowered cross healing, DPS would actually mater in PVP, and that would be the point of cruisers. escorts couldn't be propped up forever and be as legitimately vulnerable as they should be.
that would not be the end of team play, it just would just deeply cut into the unbreakable heal barrier. a player stuck at 50% health with lots of damage and healing sent to him will be a lot easier to finally finish off then a player sitting at 100% indefinitely thanks to cross heals. most team play i observe is focusing fire and CC, the healers just react on their own.
Well thats a bit of a weird statement as that can be done with both weapons.
Only difference is broadsiding.
For the OP, DPS, spike, whatever you call it. Its at the end all 'DPS'. Its just a term to specify a specific amount of damage calculated per sec.
But that can be a specific time frame, over a whole encounter, etc. The DPS on my bop over 5 seconds is massive, but plummets severely in the other 143542359325 seconds lol.
I dunno but we have 4 facings and a hull to work with, for pure penetration on 1 facing to hull + hull, DHC no doubt. Unless somone can make a broadside boat that penetrates and spikes as much as DHC's? never seen that in my life. (Not that i tried myself tho ;P)
Sounds like a nice idea, don't know how it would work in the actual game though.
Also I would like to know how you can get a 18k dps escort build in ISE (without plasma?)?. If it was without plasma, sounds to me like a match with 5 reallly really experinced players debuffing the borg + a lot of cross healing. I think I reached 15k for a CSE once without plasma but that with with beta and CSV, but with that build I definatly know I can get 13k. Ah, also forgot about doffs which can increase damage *facepalm*, okay that does seem quite possible to me then. I never change from my PvP doffs and they are shield and speed only (can't afford those fancy attack pattern doffs), and other than the beta/CSV build I don't really change my PvP builds much, I am quite content with the amount of damage I do atm.
I also believe that FaW is more trouble than its worth against borg, since you hit borg that almost instantly regerate a great deal of the time. I have seen those Jem'Hadar crusiers constantly hitting 13k or so in ISE though, I have heard 18k once.
Believe it or not thats running a photon and an overload. lol
The key to racking it up honestly is just going fast. I know that sounds obvoius and stupid. lol
Really though to get over 12k all the time just get right in everythings face like .5k and don't hold back on any buffs ever. With projectiles you can't afford to miss a doff proc which is one reason its nice to have a photon.... they do 90% of the quantum dmg anyway but do have more DPS over a match for sure.
I don't run my parser very often anymore... but I should fire it up for my Rom... Something tells me my Rom wtih no rep is putting out much higher dps then my fully geared bug.
Well, very nice, but yeah I play in the borgs face as well with buff slaming when they come up (mostly), I hold back a little bit, perhaps I should change that. I have been a little light on the parser lately also, I only keep it to test new stuff or monitor someone if they make a build change or something. I basically never use kenetic weapons (other than cutting beam), from what you just told me (~90% of quatum spike) I definatly agree, I saw someone do tests with photons that determined they worked a lot better than quatums with the doff aswell.
FORE: 3x Fleet Polaron Beam Array mk XII [acc]x2 [dmg]x2, 1x breen cluster torpedo.
AFT: 2x Fleet Polaron Beam Array mk XII [acc]x2 [dmg]x2, 1x Romulan Cloaking Tractor Beam Mines, 1x Borg Kinetic Cutting Beam.
I run it with the 2 piece mk XII jem'hadar set on the tal shiar cruiser, with 3 XII blue polaron tac consoles, various universals (Tachyokinetic, leech, borg console), and a tactical focused boff setup (APO3, DPB2, TT2x2, Target Shields1 x2) that serves to strip my enemy's shield facings down while allowing me to deal solid damage to them. DPB2 and the tractor mines can snare an enemy pretty well, but I also run tractor beam 3 to hold them in place once I get their shields down. Then the 5 beams + KCB can do their job, and once they're sufficeintly low health, I hit them with the cluster to finish them off.
This build doesn't always work- nothing's a sure thing in STO, and has the usual pitfalls against cross healing or the like, but it is very solid. I've fought a JHAS piloted by House of Beautiful Orions captain and won, three or four times (would have been a fifth, but he ran off the one time and didn't come back), and I've tested it in and out of PVP.
I've seen other beam boats that work well too- the fed/kdf 1000 day veteran ship makes a very solid one with the right build, capitalizing on mounting damage and that ideal point when enough of your opponent's buffs are on simultaneous cooldown that you can overload the damage output (not Beam overload, just like, increased I mean) enough to knock him out.
That being said, I wouldn't try to make an offensive beam boat on anything with a turn rate lower than 7- and even with 7, the turn of the tal shiar battleship, I'm still using an RCS thruster mk XII, and the tachyokinetic to augment that turn rate.
Do we want more people to get smashed by the few or the many to have more fun.
private matches, synchronized queue up
did it in swg for years.
the only missing link swg did not have that i i would like to see added here is...
Arena (Group only)
Arena (solo queue only)
Meaning to get into the first you must be in a group, say 3 minimum
To get into the second, you either must be solo or maybe a duo.
premade vs pug needs to stop. its bad for pvp no matter what the game is.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Arena: FvF, KvK, FvK
C&H: FvF, KvK, FvK
Change to...
Arena: Team, Solo
C&H: Team, Solo
Face it, the war's over for Feds by the time they're level 18 - KDF by the time they're level 35 - and it never really exists for the Romulans outside of some pseudo skirmish stuff...even for the KDF, it's only so late because of how the arcs were slotted for them and that they used to start at level 20.