You also know what? You're assuming I care. If i'm wrong, fine, i'm wrong.
Frankly, the only reason i'm arguing against this is;
a.)It's a bad idea
b.)By general logic, it should not be possible
c.) i'm sick of these threads cluttering up the forums and distracting us from the real issues.
Look at it like this. This timeline that exists for the game, technically no longer exists in the JJVerse. By going back in time, Nero technically changed the past and therefore the timeline that we experience in-game no longer exists. So what you want is to bring a ship from the past into a game which exists in a timeline that no longer exists in the JJVerse. Bearing in mind that unlike the Narada, which came from the timeline that no longer exists, the Venegeance was designed and built in the new timeline.
To be fair, we dont know how going back in time and altering events affects the timeline exactly. You have the theory that time moves in a streight line and you can only go back and forth, which is the classic idea, but this would mean anything you did in that timeline could not change any events in the timeline as they would already be part of the timeines history.
The only way to change time would be to create a new timeline. This would fit with the newer theory that time is a streight line that cannot be effected, BUT there are more than one timeline, or universe at play. This would mean timetravel is more like an accurate form of interdeminsional transition.
This would in turn mean that something can move freely from one timeline to another timelie. If this is the case, why couldnt something from another timeline move to this one?
Seriously, you are going to try using timeline arguments against a long time Legend of Zelda player?
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
CBS holds the original rights to the source material that the new movies are based off of, of course they're going to be credited. However, material produced by the production companies still belongs to them.
Look at other IPs -- While George RR Martin and his publishers own the rights to the A Song of Ice and Fire books, they can't use production materials from the Game of Thrones show without HBO's approval. It's a one-way street in that case. HBO can use anything they wait from ASoIaF because they paid for those rights, but it doesn't go back the same way allowing Martin or anyone else to print up book covers, posters, or whatever from the TV show without approval from HBO.
The problem is that you can't point to any one instance in any of this stuff and say this is how it works.
Frankly it works how the parties involve agree it works in a written contract.
Martin was free to sign any type of Contract with HBO he liked. Frankly he could have included in the contract that anything the show creates with in his IP, would legally become his properly. That might sound crazy but that is in fact how most of those contracts are worded. There may be a follow up that states a possible split in any monetary gain in the use of that material, and perhaps even a lockout period.
He may have also added lines to his contract with HBO that would have given him final creative control over anything they decide to write. Meaning if they decided they where going to write an entire new character... the rights to that character would belong 100% to Martin. Frankly I would very much doubt that isn't exactly how his agreement is worded.
Now if 2 years after that show ends Martin decides to write another book and features that character in a new book... he would be 100% with in his rights as he owns the character. However depending on the wording of his agreement with HBO he may owe them a specified amount of Royalties.
Bottom line... I would be shocked and have to wonder what type of clown lawyers CBS had if they did not 100% own the rights to EVERYTHING you see in the Paramount JJ movies. Of course if Paramount doesn't retain some creative control at least for a specific amount of time... and a Royalty agreement with CBS I would have to wonder the same about their legal team.
In short... my best educated guess is this.
1) CBS owns EVERYTHING IP derivative in the JJ movies.... including costumes ships ect ect.
2) Paramount holds at least Partial Creative control rights... for how long who knows. Perhaps even indefinitely.
3) Paramount holds some form of royalty agreement with CBS in regards to the material.
What this means... CBS likely CAN NOT give any of the new material to another licencee, with out go ahead from Paramount, the only question would be how long that would be in effect... and the answer could be forever. Of course what we are talking about could be a complete non issue if Paramount saw the inclusion of there creations as only good marketing and said go ahead. Lastly IF CBS did give Cryptic the go ahead. (and it is 100% up to them if they are not forbid to do so by contract with Paramount)... they would likely have some form of Royalty agreement with paramount ON THERE END. It wouldn't effect Cryptics deal at all.
What we may want to consider... is that Paramount has an Iron clad contract giving them full control over the material... and perhaps even crippling royalty numbers that would keep anything from ever coming to STO...
Of course sometimes Companies like Paramount allow use of there property and even wave or greatly reduce royalty numbers... IF they see the opportunity as good marketing. Frankly they can even craft a Royalty reduction agreement that would see money flow back and forth and be written off as advertisement expenses. LOL Honestly if Paramounts lawyers are smart they could use STO as a huge tax write off.
Not that I care much to see it in game... However I have to say you folks really don't understand copyright law and how it applies in this case.
No Cryptic would not have to licence anything new from paramount.
Paramount in fact signed away most of there rights to the holders of the IP in order to make a movie based on said IP.
Yes they own the copyright to new material created for there film. NO they have no say or control in its use by the IP holder. They can not licence it out, plain and simple. This would in a legal sense would have been like if Kenner having been given a licence to create Star Wars toys in the 80s had went and created a TV cartoon based on the IP. They have the rights to the IP for what they do with it... and anything they created in a new way say new droids ect would still 100% belong to Lucas. Same thing applies here.
At the end of the day anything they create for the IP is owned by the IP holder.
That is unless CBS has the worst Copyright legal team on the face of the planet... Which I doubt.
STO has already used multiple items / story lines that where in fact created by the team that brought us the JJ movies. People pointing to the comic book... that was released by the IP holders as a lead up to the first movie and was in fact called Countdown for crying out loud says it all. lol
CBS was willing to write the storys into the IP... they own it them alone.
The only thing legaly that would keep STO from using it would be possible exclusivity rights granted by cbs to paramount. On that score who knows... unless someone wants to convince either company to make those complete documents public. At that point perhaps after reading it over for a few hours someone can detail all the ins and outs. My guess would be any thing that happens with anything needs the blessing of CBS... and they wouldn't agree to allow anything to happen anywhere with out having there legal dept pour over all the ramifications.
Things like the adapted lockbox ships we have right now would 100% NOT exist in game if CBS didn't sign off... and if there legal dept had any issues with Cryptic touching on the branch of the IP that is the JJ films... they would have put an end to it there.
This is all mostly right. Paramount did inherit the copyright to the movies and rights to produce movies when Viacom was split, which resulted in divided rights. It would appear that CBS has acquired TMP through Nemesis for simplicity of licensing's sake.
CBS has the licensing/merch rights to the JJ films.
However, Cryptic's agreement with CBS doesn't (or didn't) allow Cryptic to use those elements.
From Cryptic's perspective, they have no more rights to the JJ-verse stuff than they have to Twin Peaks, which CBS also holds merch rights over, or How I Met Your Mother (which is a Fox property but which CBS holds first broadcast rights to and merch rights to).
It's less about copyright and more about contracts.
CBS gave Cryptic a license to create a derivative work based on TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and movies 1-10. CBS has merch rights to TAS, the novels, and the Abrams films but Cryptic's license doesn't include these. CBS could approve use of elements from these for STO. Or they could go give Activision or Sony a license to produce a competing TAS, Trek novels, or Abrams film MMO.
I do believe Paramount gets a cut of the merch from the Abrams films as the copyright holder but CBS is in charge of who gets the merch license.
On top of all of this, Paramount and CBS have many of the same stockholders. But are run as separate companies.
It's less a copyright issue (Paramount has the copyright on the new films but CBS is in charge of merch and owns the trademarks) and more a contracts and licensing issue, which we have only crudely pieced together the particulars of.
This is all mostly right. Paramount did inherit the copyright to the movies and rights to produce movies when Viacom was split, which resulted in divided rights. It would appear that CBS has acquired TMP through Nemesis for simplicity of licensing's sake.
CBS has the licensing/merch rights to the JJ films.
However, Cryptic's agreement with CBS doesn't (or didn't) allow Cryptic to use those elements.
From Cryptic's perspective, they have no more rights to the JJ-verse stuff than they have to Twin Peaks, which CBS also holds merch rights over, or How I Met Your Mother (which is a Fox property but which CBS holds first broadcast rights to and merch rights to).
It's less about copyright and more about contracts.
CBS gave Cryptic a license to create a derivative work based on TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and movies 1-10. CBS has merch rights to TAS, the novels, and the Abrams films but Cryptic's license doesn't include these. CBS could approve use of elements from these for STO. Or they could go give Activision or Sony a license to produce a competing TAS, Trek novels, or Abrams film MMO.
I do believe Paramount gets a cut of the merch from the Abrams films as the copyright holder but CBS is in charge of who gets the merch license.
On top of all of this, Paramount and CBS have many of the same stockholders. But are run as separate companies.
It's less a copyright issue (Paramount has the copyright on the new films but CBS is in charge of merch and owns the trademarks) and more a contracts and licensing issue, which we have only crudely pieced together the particulars of.
You know, if the whole issue boils down to royalties and money (which it really does) the solution could be making the ship only obtainable through the C-store, with a special code of programming that would divide sales among the required parties.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
You know, if the whole issue boils down to royalties and money (which it really does) the solution could be making the ship only obtainable through the C-store, with a special code of programming that would divide sales among the required parties.
It wouldn't even have to be a special code. Cryptic would just be required to report how many of 'x' were sold, for how much, and pay out accordingly. That's how it usually works with licensing agreements.
It wouldn't even have to be a special code. Cryptic would just be required to report how many of 'x' were sold, for how much, and pay out accordingly. That's how it usually works with licensing agreements.
Well, yeah. It would be a matter of negotiation. A negotiation can always end with "no" though particularly if CBS is talking to someone else about licensing the Trek movies to.
Look at their Infinite Space browser MMO. That fell through but even suggests that somebody else could do a DS9 MMO.
CBS may primarily be denying certain things to create a market for a second MMO they can charge another studio more to develop than they could expect to charge Cryptic.
It's a matter of Cryptic estimating what CBS could get and CBS deciding if that's worth compromising a $20 million dollar license to Sony if they think they could get that.
To be fair, we dont know how going back in time and altering events affects the timeline exactly. You have the theory that time moves in a streight line and you can only go back and forth, which is the classic idea, but this would mean anything you did in that timeline could not change any events in the timeline as they would already be part of the timeines history.
The only way to change time would be to create a new timeline. This would fit with the newer theory that time is a streight line that cannot be effected, BUT there are more than one timeline, or universe at play. This would mean timetravel is more like an accurate form of interdeminsional transition.
This would in turn mean that something can move freely from one timeline to another timelie. If this is the case, why couldnt something from another timeline move to this one?
Seriously, you are going to try using timeline arguments against a long time Legend of Zelda player?
Now explain to me how an item that was created in 2360 as a result of the past being changed would be able to logically included in a game in which the year is 2409 and by all theoretical logic should no longer exist due to the fact that the past was changed.
Something from another timeline cannot move to this one because the very existence of the new timeline prevents this timeline from ever having existed.
For example, the film itself is an example of this. The Vengeace is created by John Harrison's intellect because in the JJ'Verse, he never meets Kirk. He's picked up by Admiral Marcus instead and put to work militarising Starfleet.
But in this timeline, he did meet Kirk, as established by The Original Series.
Both events can't happen in the same timeline. Kirk can't have met him and not have met him. This storyline, ultimately, exists because he did meet him. JJ's story plays out because he didn't.
You need to seperate the two timelines and stop thinking of them in the same terms that you consider the timeline and the mirror universe, or the many "possible" futures that have appeared in Star Trek.
Stuff like the the All Good Things outfit, the Galaxy-X and whatnot, despite having never happened in the timeline of the show, could logically still happen in the future - or the present as we now percieve it.
But the Vengeance was created in a past that should cause the present to cease to exist.
Except, it doesn't. Because doing that would mean CBS would have to acknowledge that everything that happened in TOS through to Star Trek: Nemesis and this game are non-canon.
I don't claim to be Stephen Hawking - there are parts of quantum physics, temporal mechanics and string theory that don't make sense. But if Cryptic are going to play this with a logical mind, then I don't see any way for the Vengeance to appear.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Well, yeah. It would be a matter of negotiation. A negotiation can always end with "no" though particularly if CBS is talking to someone else about licensing the Trek movies to.
Look at their Infinite Space browser MMO. That fell through but even suggests that somebody else could do a DS9 MMO.
CBS may primarily be denying certain things to create a market for a second MMO they can charge another studio more to develop than they could expect to charge Cryptic.
It's a matter of Cryptic estimating what CBS could get and CBS deciding if that's worth compromising a $20 million dollar license to Sony if they think they could get that.
Again its all in the wording of the contract.
If there is a limited time alotment for Paramount that would be a huge part of this. Just look at what happened with Spiderman.
Another point to bring up though is just what kind of marketing and product placement HAS been made by Paramount.
We have a grand total of one game, thats it. No promotional toys or cups by Burger King or McDonalds, no toys, just a game and a couple of comics. Paramount is only making money from ticket and DVD sales, possibly video game sales.
If they did it right, this could be advertisment on their part. Or they could make it a promotional item, like buying Into Darkness on Blueray would get you a promotional code that grants you the USS Vengeance. That would insure they make money from the DVDs as anyone who wants the ship would have to buy it.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
If they did it right, this could be advertisment on their part. Or they could make it a promotional item, like buying Into Darkness on Blueray would get you a promotional code that grants you the USS Vengeance. That would insure they make money from the DVDs as anyone who wants the ship would have to buy it.
The other half of this type of thing would be this...
Thanks to the United States archaic mess of a legal system.
Paramount could track down the State with the correct set of tax laws... create a shell comapny... transfer the revenue stream to said company... craft a bunch of detailed royalty deals in combo with a bunch of advertisement purchases. Bingo bango and a bunch of legal accounting magic they could end up not paying taxes on not only a good chunk of the revenue created by any Royalty agreements with CBS (via Cryptic) but also with sales seen to apply to both medias, meaning they would save tax payments that would have been made on the sales of dvds/blurays/digital downloads ect if they become part of a paid promotion.
Honestly with some legal magic Paramount could end up keeping a larger chunk of revenue on a deal like that.
Depends how shady and smart there legal accounting dept is. lol
Additionally, could you explain to me - in game terms - how this benefits the game?
I see no benefit to simply including this ship because "it's a nice design" and "it'd be nice to give the Fed's a ship with teeth that isn't the defiant."
You're missing fundamental game mechanics here. Cruisers aren't meant to dish out high amounts of damage. That's what Escorts are for. Cruisers are meant to soak up the damage and keep the fire off the Escorts - that are significantly more fragile - so that the escorts can deal the damage. And Science ships are meant to jump in and act as support. Thus, the holy trinity is formed.
I'm not against introducing new ships that break the mold. I'm looking forward to the cruiser with side mounted weapon slots that has been mentioned.
I'm against introducing this ship based solely on "it's a cool design". Because that seems to be the core of your reasoning for including this ship.
It is a cool design. But it doesn't belong here.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
I won't argue the ship should come into the game... however it would make money if it did.
There for you have to assume companies involved would like to see that happen. lol
I doubt Paramount would see any back royalties they would get through CBS as worth pushing... and don't know if Cryptic sees it as an opportunity worth pushing either.
I can see a few ways that every company involved could make bank though... and even some legal perks for a company like Paramount with a massive marketing expenditure... that is constantly looking for new media to market to... as there really are honestly legal loop holes that reward that for them.
these are the types of laws that the companies we are talking about use all the time... and there are so many more that most people have never heard of. lol
Now explain to me how an item that was created in 2360 as a result of the past being changed would be able to logically included in a game in which the year is 2409 and by all theoretical logic should no longer exist due to the fact that the past was changed.
Something from another timeline cannot move to this one because the very existence of the new timeline prevents this timeline from ever having existed.
For example, the film itself is an example of this. The Vengeace is created by John Harrison's intellect because in the JJ'Verse, he never meets Kirk. He's picked up by Admiral Marcus instead and put to work militarising Starfleet.
But in this timeline, he did meet Kirk, as established by The Original Series.
Both events can't happen in the same timeline. Kirk can't have met him and not have met him. This storyline, ultimately, exists because he did meet him. JJ's story plays out because he didn't.
You need to seperate the two timelines and stop thinking of them in the same terms that you consider the timeline and the mirror universe, or the many "possible" futures that have appeared in Star Trek.
Stuff like the the All Good Things outfit, the Galaxy-X and whatnot, despite having never happened in the timeline of the show, could logically still happen in the future - or the present as we now percieve it.
But the Vengeance was created in a past that should cause the present to cease to exist.
Except, it doesn't. Because doing that would mean CBS would have to acknowledge that everything that happened in TOS through to Star Trek: Nemesis and this game are non-canon.
I don't claim to be Stephen Hawking - there are parts of quantum physics, temporal mechanics and string theory that don't make sense. But if Cryptic are going to play this with a logical mind, then I don't see any way for the Vengeance to appear.
Sorry for taking awhile to reply, went out to grab a bite to eat.
To answer your question of how it could be in the game as it comes from a different timeline, thats assuming that all the movies occure in the same timeline as the tv shows. Generations comes into direct conflect with the TNG episode Relics, as does the entire inclusion of Romulans in Enterprise comes into direct conflect with the TOS episode Balance of Terror.
On top of this we have multiple examples of various timelines beedling over into each other. I cant recall the title, but there as a TNG episode where Worf ended up in the wrong timeline, and at the end we saw twenty or so different timelines version of Worf.
Then you have the TNG episode Yesterdays Enterprise, which is the corner stone of many possibilities.
Since the series already established multiple timelines do in fact exist, all it takes is a version of the USS Vengeance from ONE deminsion crossing over into this one, and Section31 getting ahold of it (which isnt that hard to imagine, it would be the first place its crew would go most likely).
So there you go, thats how it could happen.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Additionally, could you explain to me - in game terms - how this benefits the game?
I see no benefit to simply including this ship because "it's a nice design" and "it'd be nice to give the Fed's a ship with teeth that isn't the defiant."
You're missing fundamental game mechanics here. Cruisers aren't meant to dish out high amounts of damage. That's what Escorts are for. Cruisers are meant to soak up the damage and keep the fire off the Escorts - that are significantly more fragile - so that the escorts can deal the damage. And Science ships are meant to jump in and act as support. Thus, the holy trinity is formed.
I'm not against introducing new ships that break the mold. I'm looking forward to the cruiser with side mounted weapon slots that has been mentioned.
I'm against introducing this ship based solely on "it's a cool design". Because that seems to be the core of your reasoning for including this ship.
It is a cool design. But it doesn't belong here.
There are other examples of ships that bleed into more than one role. The key is to make it balanced, like was done with the Dreadnought Cruiser. It has its draw backs, but its still easy to turn the thing into a beast (its my current ship so I would know). For example, it could still be as tough as a high tier cruiser, but have limited bridge officers, or limit the number of weapons it can have equiped. This woud keep it fair and from breaking game play.
Besides, escorts are FAR from fragel dude. I've seen people tank with Akira class ships just as well as I can with my Galaxy X. And dont even get me started about Science ships be only support ships as my Intrepid class torpedo boat would like to have a word with you.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
This thread keeps trying to say all the same things that were said in the "can we have a Narada" thread.
But here's the really strange part.
We now have little Naradas in the game. Complete with Shrapnel Torpedoes.
Weird huh?
Yeah, but they still aren't the Narada. :P
As per Countdown, which Cryptic was allowed to use as part of STO for the 2009 movie, these Tal'Shair ships were based off the Borgtech they used to create the Narada. So that logically makes sense.
But what doesn't make sense if we suddenly have Consitutions flying around that looks identical to the JJprise. Which it wouldn't be a Consitution-class, because it's as large as the Sovereign. :rolleyes:
And the Vengence was refered in the movie as "Dreadnaught-class", which in this universe, it's been one of the first non-official ships that Franz Joseph created in the 1970s. Which fans been hoping would make an real official appearance for decades.
As per Countdown, which Cryptic was allowed to use as part of STO for the 2009 movie, these Tal'Shair ships were based off the Borgtech they used to create the Narada. So that logically makes sense.
But what doesn't make sense if we suddenly have Consitutions flying around that looks identical to the JJprise. Which it wouldn't be a Consitution-class, because it's as large as the Sovereign. :rolleyes:
And the Vengence was refered in the movie as "Dreadnaught-class", which in this universe, it's been one of the first non-official ships that Franz Joseph created in the 1970s. Which fans been hoping would make an real official appearance for decades.
Wait a minute, wasnt Franz's Dreadnaught class in Star Trek Starfleet Command? Its been like 15 years since I played that game, but I could swear that ship was in the game now that I think about it.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Countdown, the movie tie-in comic from IDW publishing, is a story created by Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci. The comic's writers, Mike Johnson and Tim Jones worked for K/O Productions. The whole idea of the comic came about from story ideas Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci fed Johnson and Jones. Everything Romulan related specifically comes from the movie production folks.
It's all coming from Abrams.
Heck Orci just up and helps write the second countdown series.
Sorry for taking awhile to reply, went out to grab a bite to eat.
To answer your question of how it could be in the game as it comes from a different timeline, thats assuming that all the movies occure in the same timeline as the tv shows. Generations comes into direct conflect with the TNG episode Relics, as does the entire inclusion of Romulans in Enterprise comes into direct conflect with the TOS episode Balance of Terror.
On top of this we have multiple examples of various timelines beedling over into each other. I cant recall the title, but there as a TNG episode where Worf ended up in the wrong timeline, and at the end we saw twenty or so different timelines version of Worf.
Then you have the TNG episode Yesterdays Enterprise, which is the corner stone of many possibilities.
Since the series already established multiple timelines do in fact exist, all it takes is a version of the USS Vengeance from ONE deminsion crossing over into this one, and Section31 getting ahold of it (which isnt that hard to imagine, it would be the first place its crew would go most likely).
So there you go, thats how it could happen.
But again, you've missed my point.
The new Star Trek isn't simply an alternate timeline. It's an alternate reality.
All of what you've cited as examples are bad examples of stories being written retro-actively and most of the examples can be "handwaved" away - for example, Scotty's mention of Kirk in "Relics" despite his apparent death in Generations is attributed to him being trapped in a pattern buffer for 70 years. As for the Romulans, their appearance in Ent does not break with the canon of Balance Of Terror, as Spock mentions the Earth-Romulan war. The Romulans appearance in ENT is the prelude to that conflict, and the conflict itself is covered in novels. As for the other examples, in "Parallels", Worf ultimately returns to his own quantum reality and the timeline continues as normal - the series does not the suddenly follow Captain Riker and Worf as his first officer.
In simple terms, it works like this. In 2387, Nero travels back in time and distrupts the timeline by destroying the USS Kelvin, thus changing the past.
By changing the past, he effectively "resets" the Star Trek timeline from 2387 to 2233. That means that by the logic of string theory, anything that happens after Nero changes the past - anything the occurs from 2387 onwards - can no longer have happened because Nero changed the past.
So for all intents and purposes, to those living in the the New Trek timeline, the timeline that exists for us playing Star Trek Online was destroyed by Nero's interference in the past.
The future we play the game in - gone. Destroyed. It is no more. Once you accept that, then you might understand the difficulty in logically bringing the ship into the game.
So the year is now 2259. The year in which Into Darkness takes place. The USS Vengeance has been built. We can't bring it into the future because, due to Nero's temporal incursion in 2233, the future no longer exists. And you can't bring it into the present - the prime universe 2259 - because that would also break with canon. Kirk still won't be captain of the Enterprise for another five years in the Prime Universe.
The USS Vengeance only exists as a direct result of Nero's temporal incursion. No temporal incursion by Nero, no USS Vengeance. Hence, by logic, it could not possibly exist in this reality.
For someone who doesn't like the new films, you're trying awfully hard to find a reason - any reason, no matter how obscure - to see the Vengeance make it into the game.
And dont even get me started about Science ships be only support ships as my Intrepid class torpedo boat would like to have a word with you.
Precisely my point. You can break the mold without breaking the canon. You've turned a support ship into a damage dealer. But did you need a shiny new toy to do that?
No, no you did not. Hence, we do not need the Vengeance in game.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Wait a minute, wasnt Franz's Dreadnaught class in Star Trek Starfleet Command? Its been like 15 years since I played that game, but I could swear that ship was in the game now that I think about it.
No, it wasn't. If you did see it, then it was a mod.
Countdown, the movie tie-in comic from IDW publishing, is a story created by Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci. The comic's writers, Mike Johnson and Tim Jones worked for K/O Productions. The whole idea of the comic came about from story ideas Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci fed Johnson and Jones. Everything Romulan related specifically comes from the movie production folks.
It's all coming from Abrams.
Heck Orci just up and helps write the second countdown series.
So what if it came from Abrams. During STO's development, they were told by CBS to drop what they were doing and integrate the new Star Trek movie, which included the destruction of Romulus. (Which the Devs said many times they had something planned for Romulus that they had to scrap).
That's why Countdown was added as part of the STO lore, and anything that happened before the Narada and Spock disappearing into the singularity, is fair game. Anything after (which anything in the new movies) is not.
But part of their agreement is that the Narada and the Jellyfish wouldn't be allowed. And it's written they are prototypes / one-of-a-kind. Thats why we don't see these ships zipping along.
However, their agreement allowed them to create new ships based off the Narada technology (Borg) and create new ships. Which are Romulan Borg hybrids. Which the new Tal Shair ships takes to the limit that solidies the connection.
As for the Jellyfish, I seriously doubt we will see Jellyfish flying around, but wouldn't be surprised if someday we might get new Vulcan ships that is based off the Jellyfish tech.
Now the one ship I would like to see in STO is the Kelvin-type. Which technically should exist in both universes. But because of the licence, we may never see it in any form. Even though it could easily be written as a varient of the Saladin / Hermes.
But as I said, the line stops at the singularity. If it didn't exist prior, its not going to happen in STO, period.
The new Star Trek isn't simply an alternate timeline. It's an alternate reality.
All of what you've cited as examples are bad examples of stories being written retro-actively and most of the examples can be "handwaved" away - for example, Scotty's mention of Kirk in "Relics" despite his apparent death in Generations is attributed to him being trapped in a pattern buffer for 70 years. As for the Romulans, their appearance in Ent does not break with the canon of Balance Of Terror, as Spock mentions the Earth-Romulan war. The Romulans appearance in ENT is the prelude to that conflict, and the conflict itself is covered in novels. As for the other examples, in "Parallels", Worf ultimately returns to his own quantum reality and the timeline continues as normal - the series does not the suddenly follow Captain Riker and Worf as his first officer.
In simple terms, it works like this. In 2387, Nero travels back in time and distrupts the timeline by destroying the USS Kelvin, thus changing the past.
By changing the past, he effectively "resets" the Star Trek timeline from 2387 to 2233. That means that by the logic of string theory, anything that happens after Nero changes the past - anything the occurs from 2387 onwards - can no longer have happened because Nero changed the past.
So for all intents and purposes, to those living in the the New Trek timeline, the timeline that exists for us playing Star Trek Online was destroyed by Nero's interference in the past.
The future we play the game in - gone. Destroyed. It is no more. Once you accept that, then you might understand the difficulty in logically bringing the ship into the game.
So the year is now 2259. The year in which Into Darkness takes place. The USS Vengeance has been built. We can't bring it into the future because, due to Nero's temporal incursion in 2233, the future no longer exists. And you can't bring it into the present - the prime universe 2233 - because that would also break with canon.
The USS Vengeance only exists as a direct result of Nero's temporal incursion. No temporal incursion by Nero, no USS Vengeance. Hence, by logic, it could not possibly exist in this reality.
For someone who doesn't like the new films, you're trying awfully hard to find a reason - any reason, no matter how obscure - to see the Vengeance make it into the game.
Precisely my point. You can break the mold without breaking the canon. You've turned a support ship into a damage dealer. But did you need a shiny new toy to do that?
No, no you did not. Hence, we do not need the Vengeance in game.
Its almost 1 am, too tired to make this long, but I'll answer one point. Did I have to get a shiny new toy to break the mold to make my Intrepid a damage dealer?
YES, Ihad to get a LOT of shiny toys, five Refit ship classes to be exact.
I've taken to buying all of the refits, stripping them for parts (anything unique) then dismissing them. You'd be surprised what a Science ship can do with a couple of Escort and Cruiser consols. Wide Arc Quantum torpedos and the two point defense turrets are very useful on a number of ships.
As for alternate timelines/realities, reall dude, we're talking about STAR TREK, the laws of time, space and existance have been stretched, twisted, tied and cut more times over than a peace of swiss cheese. We can go back and forth, but the fact remains nothing is outside the realm of possibility with this series.
After all, many people have said for decades that nothing could make Wrath of Khan look bad, yet here we are now, the impossible accomplished.
And yes, I do hate the JJ movies OVER ALL, but that doesnt mean I hate everything about them. Same with sea food, I hate it, all of it, the smell of any sort of sea food makes me ill and green, but I love the thrill of fishing.
You can enjoy and like parts of something without liking all of it. To this day I reject the existance of Star Trek Generations and Enterprise. They had things I liked (such as the Enterprise B and the follow up to the TOS episode The Web) but on the whole, I cant watch Generations beyond the first ten minutes, and cant watch a single episode of Enerprise. I sawthem once, just so I can say that I HAVE seen them.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Its almost 1 am, too tired to make this long, but I'll answer one point. Did I have to get a shiny new toy to break the mold to make my Intrepid a damage dealer?
YES, Ihad to get a LOT of shiny toys, five Refit ship classes to be exact.
I've taken to buying all of the refits, stripping them for parts (anything unique) then dismissing them. You'd be surprised what a Science ship can do with a couple of Escort and Cruiser consols. Wide Arc Quantum torpedos and the two point defense turrets are very useful on a number of ships.
I'd like to point out that despite what you're saying, you didn't need Cryptic to model and code and pay the money for licensing rights for a brand new ship that breaks canon just so that you could make a damage-dealing Intrepid. You took what was available, and you made it work.
So why risk money and time and effort making a new cruiser when a decent player can turn a cruiser into a DPS ship with what's already in-game? Seems like massive waste of resources when there are many issues with the game that need to be the Dev's main priority.
Rule of cool is not an excuse to break canon. Ever. Neither is it acceptable to do it simply to break the mold of established gameplay.
This timeline is not cyclical. Just because the New Trek movies take place in 2259, doesn't mean that by New Trek's 2409 it'll be exactly the same timeline as we know in STO.
To this day I reject the existance of Star Trek Generations and Enterprise.
I'm having trouble comprehending what you've just said. You do realise that due to the events of 2009's Star Trek, Enterprise is the only thing from before JJVerse that is considered canon?
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Thank god for small mercies in the form of people who actually understand continuity.
Uh, huh. So I suppose Sela doesnt exist, because her mother died in our universe, so the one from the alternate universe/timeline couldnt have gone back in time on the Enterprise C, get captured and have a kid.
Huh, wonder how that got past the games writers? Why would they have a character who doesnt really exist play such an important role? After all, according to you anything from an alternate universe/timeline cant have any effect on the original one.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Well there sure has never been any talk of reality blurring in trek canon at all... so I can see why people say there is no way for anything from that time line to show up... wait hold on... *cough* Mirror universe *cough* tholians *cough* wells time ships... Voyager and time traveling Braxtons that set off tech companies.... lol
There are only 20 different ways they could bridge the universes if they really felt like it... come on its Trek when have they not just written what they needed to make money when it suited them before.
The fact that we as trek fans for some reason seem to think the guys that own the Trek IP have some willingness or duty to uphold what is "canon" is pretty silly. Come one things become "canon" when the people they hire to write it so write it so.
Well there sure has never been any talk of reality blurring in trek canon at all... so I can see why people say there is no way for anything from that time line to show up... wait hold on... *cough* Mirror universe *cough* tholians *cough* wells time ships... Voyager and time traveling Braxtons that set off tech companies.... lol
There are only 20 different ways they could bridge the universes if they really felt like it... come on its Trek when have they not just written what they needed to make money when it suited them before.
The fact that we as trek fans for some reason seem to think the guys that own the Trek IP have some willingness or duty to uphold what is "canon" is pretty silly. Come one things become "canon" when the people they hire to write it so write it so.
Dude, you just paraphrased one of the commandmets I live by as an author:
"Writers lie. So do tape recorders and video cameras. So does memory. As a fiction writer this doesn't bother me at all. I only have to be true to my imagination, to the characters I create and the events that I cause. In fiction, the writer is God, without quarreling apostles, without competing deities, and without any foot-dragging villagers." -Amy Bloom
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Not when the original timeline/universe theoretically ceased to exist, no, it can't.
Really? But in the original universe Enterprise C had already perished. It was presented as what happened was Enterprise C from our timeline wound up in an alternate reality/timeline, where it picked up that universes Tasha Yar, who traveled through a rift that took it back to that Enterprise C's universe/timeline.
Going by this, there were two Tasha Yars to exist in a single timeline. One who died a meaningless death, and anothe who died trying to escape from prison with her daughter. Both were real, but one was from an alternate timeline/dimension.
That being said, why is it impossible for this to happen again? A ship from the past end up in an alternate future from its own.
That timeline you are so fond of, it shows the original timeline and the JJ universe running side by side. If the original universe ceased to exist as a result of the JJ movies, then the timeline would stop completly at the point of the singularity, which was before this game starts, and the only continuing timeline would be the JJ universe.
For both to run side by side means they both exist at the same time, just alternate/parallell to each other.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Now explain to me how an item that was created in 2360 as a result of the past being changed would be able to logically included in a game in which the year is 2409 and by all theoretical logic should no longer exist due to the fact that the past was changed.
Something from another timeline cannot move to this one because the very existence of the new timeline prevents this timeline from ever having existed.
For example, the film itself is an example of this. The Vengeace is created by John Harrison's intellect because in the JJ'Verse, he never meets Kirk. He's picked up by Admiral Marcus instead and put to work militarising Starfleet.
But in this timeline, he did meet Kirk, as established by The Original Series.
Both events can't happen in the same timeline. Kirk can't have met him and not have met him. This storyline, ultimately, exists because he did meet him. JJ's story plays out because he didn't.
You need to seperate the two timelines and stop thinking of them in the same terms that you consider the timeline and the mirror universe, or the many "possible" futures that have appeared in Star Trek.
Stuff like the the All Good Things outfit, the Galaxy-X and whatnot, despite having never happened in the timeline of the show, could logically still happen in the future - or the present as we now percieve it.
But the Vengeance was created in a past that should cause the present to cease to exist.
Except, it doesn't. Because doing that would mean CBS would have to acknowledge that everything that happened in TOS through to Star Trek: Nemesis and this game are non-canon.
I don't claim to be Stephen Hawking - there are parts of quantum physics, temporal mechanics and string theory that don't make sense. But if Cryptic are going to play this with a logical mind, then I don't see any way for the Vengeance to appear.
What he said....
Look buddy, I'm an engineer which means I solve problems.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
William "Ozzy" Ozland | Clara Shepard Roslin Zho'ee Stewart Gilligan "Stewie" Griffin
Comments
To be fair, we dont know how going back in time and altering events affects the timeline exactly. You have the theory that time moves in a streight line and you can only go back and forth, which is the classic idea, but this would mean anything you did in that timeline could not change any events in the timeline as they would already be part of the timeines history.
The only way to change time would be to create a new timeline. This would fit with the newer theory that time is a streight line that cannot be effected, BUT there are more than one timeline, or universe at play. This would mean timetravel is more like an accurate form of interdeminsional transition.
This would in turn mean that something can move freely from one timeline to another timelie. If this is the case, why couldnt something from another timeline move to this one?
Seriously, you are going to try using timeline arguments against a long time Legend of Zelda player?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
The problem is that you can't point to any one instance in any of this stuff and say this is how it works.
Frankly it works how the parties involve agree it works in a written contract.
Martin was free to sign any type of Contract with HBO he liked. Frankly he could have included in the contract that anything the show creates with in his IP, would legally become his properly. That might sound crazy but that is in fact how most of those contracts are worded. There may be a follow up that states a possible split in any monetary gain in the use of that material, and perhaps even a lockout period.
He may have also added lines to his contract with HBO that would have given him final creative control over anything they decide to write. Meaning if they decided they where going to write an entire new character... the rights to that character would belong 100% to Martin. Frankly I would very much doubt that isn't exactly how his agreement is worded.
Now if 2 years after that show ends Martin decides to write another book and features that character in a new book... he would be 100% with in his rights as he owns the character. However depending on the wording of his agreement with HBO he may owe them a specified amount of Royalties.
Bottom line... I would be shocked and have to wonder what type of clown lawyers CBS had if they did not 100% own the rights to EVERYTHING you see in the Paramount JJ movies. Of course if Paramount doesn't retain some creative control at least for a specific amount of time... and a Royalty agreement with CBS I would have to wonder the same about their legal team.
In short... my best educated guess is this.
1) CBS owns EVERYTHING IP derivative in the JJ movies.... including costumes ships ect ect.
2) Paramount holds at least Partial Creative control rights... for how long who knows. Perhaps even indefinitely.
3) Paramount holds some form of royalty agreement with CBS in regards to the material.
What this means... CBS likely CAN NOT give any of the new material to another licencee, with out go ahead from Paramount, the only question would be how long that would be in effect... and the answer could be forever. Of course what we are talking about could be a complete non issue if Paramount saw the inclusion of there creations as only good marketing and said go ahead. Lastly IF CBS did give Cryptic the go ahead. (and it is 100% up to them if they are not forbid to do so by contract with Paramount)... they would likely have some form of Royalty agreement with paramount ON THERE END. It wouldn't effect Cryptics deal at all.
What we may want to consider... is that Paramount has an Iron clad contract giving them full control over the material... and perhaps even crippling royalty numbers that would keep anything from ever coming to STO...
Of course sometimes Companies like Paramount allow use of there property and even wave or greatly reduce royalty numbers... IF they see the opportunity as good marketing. Frankly they can even craft a Royalty reduction agreement that would see money flow back and forth and be written off as advertisement expenses. LOL Honestly if Paramounts lawyers are smart they could use STO as a huge tax write off.
This is all mostly right. Paramount did inherit the copyright to the movies and rights to produce movies when Viacom was split, which resulted in divided rights. It would appear that CBS has acquired TMP through Nemesis for simplicity of licensing's sake.
CBS has the licensing/merch rights to the JJ films.
However, Cryptic's agreement with CBS doesn't (or didn't) allow Cryptic to use those elements.
From Cryptic's perspective, they have no more rights to the JJ-verse stuff than they have to Twin Peaks, which CBS also holds merch rights over, or How I Met Your Mother (which is a Fox property but which CBS holds first broadcast rights to and merch rights to).
It's less about copyright and more about contracts.
CBS gave Cryptic a license to create a derivative work based on TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and movies 1-10. CBS has merch rights to TAS, the novels, and the Abrams films but Cryptic's license doesn't include these. CBS could approve use of elements from these for STO. Or they could go give Activision or Sony a license to produce a competing TAS, Trek novels, or Abrams film MMO.
I do believe Paramount gets a cut of the merch from the Abrams films as the copyright holder but CBS is in charge of who gets the merch license.
On top of all of this, Paramount and CBS have many of the same stockholders. But are run as separate companies.
It's less a copyright issue (Paramount has the copyright on the new films but CBS is in charge of merch and owns the trademarks) and more a contracts and licensing issue, which we have only crudely pieced together the particulars of.
You know, if the whole issue boils down to royalties and money (which it really does) the solution could be making the ship only obtainable through the C-store, with a special code of programming that would divide sales among the required parties.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
It wouldn't even have to be a special code. Cryptic would just be required to report how many of 'x' were sold, for how much, and pay out accordingly. That's how it usually works with licensing agreements.
Well, yeah. It would be a matter of negotiation. A negotiation can always end with "no" though particularly if CBS is talking to someone else about licensing the Trek movies to.
Look at their Infinite Space browser MMO. That fell through but even suggests that somebody else could do a DS9 MMO.
CBS may primarily be denying certain things to create a market for a second MMO they can charge another studio more to develop than they could expect to charge Cryptic.
It's a matter of Cryptic estimating what CBS could get and CBS deciding if that's worth compromising a $20 million dollar license to Sony if they think they could get that.
Look at this.
Now explain to me how an item that was created in 2360 as a result of the past being changed would be able to logically included in a game in which the year is 2409 and by all theoretical logic should no longer exist due to the fact that the past was changed.
Something from another timeline cannot move to this one because the very existence of the new timeline prevents this timeline from ever having existed.
For example, the film itself is an example of this. The Vengeace is created by John Harrison's intellect because in the JJ'Verse, he never meets Kirk. He's picked up by Admiral Marcus instead and put to work militarising Starfleet.
But in this timeline, he did meet Kirk, as established by The Original Series.
Both events can't happen in the same timeline. Kirk can't have met him and not have met him. This storyline, ultimately, exists because he did meet him. JJ's story plays out because he didn't.
You need to seperate the two timelines and stop thinking of them in the same terms that you consider the timeline and the mirror universe, or the many "possible" futures that have appeared in Star Trek.
Stuff like the the All Good Things outfit, the Galaxy-X and whatnot, despite having never happened in the timeline of the show, could logically still happen in the future - or the present as we now percieve it.
But the Vengeance was created in a past that should cause the present to cease to exist.
Except, it doesn't. Because doing that would mean CBS would have to acknowledge that everything that happened in TOS through to Star Trek: Nemesis and this game are non-canon.
I don't claim to be Stephen Hawking - there are parts of quantum physics, temporal mechanics and string theory that don't make sense. But if Cryptic are going to play this with a logical mind, then I don't see any way for the Vengeance to appear.
Again its all in the wording of the contract.
If there is a limited time alotment for Paramount that would be a huge part of this. Just look at what happened with Spiderman.
Another point to bring up though is just what kind of marketing and product placement HAS been made by Paramount.
We have a grand total of one game, thats it. No promotional toys or cups by Burger King or McDonalds, no toys, just a game and a couple of comics. Paramount is only making money from ticket and DVD sales, possibly video game sales.
If they did it right, this could be advertisment on their part. Or they could make it a promotional item, like buying Into Darkness on Blueray would get you a promotional code that grants you the USS Vengeance. That would insure they make money from the DVDs as anyone who wants the ship would have to buy it.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
The other half of this type of thing would be this...
Thanks to the United States archaic mess of a legal system.
Paramount could track down the State with the correct set of tax laws... create a shell comapny... transfer the revenue stream to said company... craft a bunch of detailed royalty deals in combo with a bunch of advertisement purchases. Bingo bango and a bunch of legal accounting magic they could end up not paying taxes on not only a good chunk of the revenue created by any Royalty agreements with CBS (via Cryptic) but also with sales seen to apply to both medias, meaning they would save tax payments that would have been made on the sales of dvds/blurays/digital downloads ect if they become part of a paid promotion.
Honestly with some legal magic Paramount could end up keeping a larger chunk of revenue on a deal like that.
Depends how shady and smart there legal accounting dept is. lol
I see no benefit to simply including this ship because "it's a nice design" and "it'd be nice to give the Fed's a ship with teeth that isn't the defiant."
You're missing fundamental game mechanics here. Cruisers aren't meant to dish out high amounts of damage. That's what Escorts are for. Cruisers are meant to soak up the damage and keep the fire off the Escorts - that are significantly more fragile - so that the escorts can deal the damage. And Science ships are meant to jump in and act as support. Thus, the holy trinity is formed.
I'm not against introducing new ships that break the mold. I'm looking forward to the cruiser with side mounted weapon slots that has been mentioned.
I'm against introducing this ship based solely on "it's a cool design". Because that seems to be the core of your reasoning for including this ship.
It is a cool design. But it doesn't belong here.
There for you have to assume companies involved would like to see that happen. lol
I doubt Paramount would see any back royalties they would get through CBS as worth pushing... and don't know if Cryptic sees it as an opportunity worth pushing either.
I can see a few ways that every company involved could make bank though... and even some legal perks for a company like Paramount with a massive marketing expenditure... that is constantly looking for new media to market to... as there really are honestly legal loop holes that reward that for them.
Sorry for taking awhile to reply, went out to grab a bite to eat.
To answer your question of how it could be in the game as it comes from a different timeline, thats assuming that all the movies occure in the same timeline as the tv shows. Generations comes into direct conflect with the TNG episode Relics, as does the entire inclusion of Romulans in Enterprise comes into direct conflect with the TOS episode Balance of Terror.
On top of this we have multiple examples of various timelines beedling over into each other. I cant recall the title, but there as a TNG episode where Worf ended up in the wrong timeline, and at the end we saw twenty or so different timelines version of Worf.
Then you have the TNG episode Yesterdays Enterprise, which is the corner stone of many possibilities.
Since the series already established multiple timelines do in fact exist, all it takes is a version of the USS Vengeance from ONE deminsion crossing over into this one, and Section31 getting ahold of it (which isnt that hard to imagine, it would be the first place its crew would go most likely).
So there you go, thats how it could happen.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
There are other examples of ships that bleed into more than one role. The key is to make it balanced, like was done with the Dreadnought Cruiser. It has its draw backs, but its still easy to turn the thing into a beast (its my current ship so I would know). For example, it could still be as tough as a high tier cruiser, but have limited bridge officers, or limit the number of weapons it can have equiped. This woud keep it fair and from breaking game play.
Besides, escorts are FAR from fragel dude. I've seen people tank with Akira class ships just as well as I can with my Galaxy X. And dont even get me started about Science ships be only support ships as my Intrepid class torpedo boat would like to have a word with you.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
But here's the really strange part.
We now have little Naradas in the game. Complete with Shrapnel Torpedoes.
Weird huh?
Ah yes, the Shrapnel Torpedoes, the oh so sought after upgrade I'm seeking for a few of my test ship designs - _ -
The gods of the random number generator hate me.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Yeah, but they still aren't the Narada. :P
As per Countdown, which Cryptic was allowed to use as part of STO for the 2009 movie, these Tal'Shair ships were based off the Borgtech they used to create the Narada. So that logically makes sense.
But what doesn't make sense if we suddenly have Consitutions flying around that looks identical to the JJprise. Which it wouldn't be a Consitution-class, because it's as large as the Sovereign. :rolleyes:
And the Vengence was refered in the movie as "Dreadnaught-class", which in this universe, it's been one of the first non-official ships that Franz Joseph created in the 1970s. Which fans been hoping would make an real official appearance for decades.
Wait a minute, wasnt Franz's Dreadnaught class in Star Trek Starfleet Command? Its been like 15 years since I played that game, but I could swear that ship was in the game now that I think about it.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Countdown, the movie tie-in comic from IDW publishing, is a story created by Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci. The comic's writers, Mike Johnson and Tim Jones worked for K/O Productions. The whole idea of the comic came about from story ideas Abrams, Kurtzman and Orci fed Johnson and Jones. Everything Romulan related specifically comes from the movie production folks.
It's all coming from Abrams.
Heck Orci just up and helps write the second countdown series.
But again, you've missed my point.
The new Star Trek isn't simply an alternate timeline. It's an alternate reality.
All of what you've cited as examples are bad examples of stories being written retro-actively and most of the examples can be "handwaved" away - for example, Scotty's mention of Kirk in "Relics" despite his apparent death in Generations is attributed to him being trapped in a pattern buffer for 70 years. As for the Romulans, their appearance in Ent does not break with the canon of Balance Of Terror, as Spock mentions the Earth-Romulan war. The Romulans appearance in ENT is the prelude to that conflict, and the conflict itself is covered in novels. As for the other examples, in "Parallels", Worf ultimately returns to his own quantum reality and the timeline continues as normal - the series does not the suddenly follow Captain Riker and Worf as his first officer.
In simple terms, it works like this. In 2387, Nero travels back in time and distrupts the timeline by destroying the USS Kelvin, thus changing the past.
By changing the past, he effectively "resets" the Star Trek timeline from 2387 to 2233. That means that by the logic of string theory, anything that happens after Nero changes the past - anything the occurs from 2387 onwards - can no longer have happened because Nero changed the past.
So for all intents and purposes, to those living in the the New Trek timeline, the timeline that exists for us playing Star Trek Online was destroyed by Nero's interference in the past.
The future we play the game in - gone. Destroyed. It is no more. Once you accept that, then you might understand the difficulty in logically bringing the ship into the game.
So the year is now 2259. The year in which Into Darkness takes place. The USS Vengeance has been built. We can't bring it into the future because, due to Nero's temporal incursion in 2233, the future no longer exists. And you can't bring it into the present - the prime universe 2259 - because that would also break with canon. Kirk still won't be captain of the Enterprise for another five years in the Prime Universe.
The USS Vengeance only exists as a direct result of Nero's temporal incursion. No temporal incursion by Nero, no USS Vengeance. Hence, by logic, it could not possibly exist in this reality.
Here, have another timeline to look at. This one is even from the build up to Into Darkness.
For someone who doesn't like the new films, you're trying awfully hard to find a reason - any reason, no matter how obscure - to see the Vengeance make it into the game.
Precisely my point. You can break the mold without breaking the canon. You've turned a support ship into a damage dealer. But did you need a shiny new toy to do that?
No, no you did not. Hence, we do not need the Vengeance in game.
No, it wasn't. If you did see it, then it was a mod.
So what if it came from Abrams. During STO's development, they were told by CBS to drop what they were doing and integrate the new Star Trek movie, which included the destruction of Romulus. (Which the Devs said many times they had something planned for Romulus that they had to scrap).
That's why Countdown was added as part of the STO lore, and anything that happened before the Narada and Spock disappearing into the singularity, is fair game. Anything after (which anything in the new movies) is not.
But part of their agreement is that the Narada and the Jellyfish wouldn't be allowed. And it's written they are prototypes / one-of-a-kind. Thats why we don't see these ships zipping along.
However, their agreement allowed them to create new ships based off the Narada technology (Borg) and create new ships. Which are Romulan Borg hybrids. Which the new Tal Shair ships takes to the limit that solidies the connection.
As for the Jellyfish, I seriously doubt we will see Jellyfish flying around, but wouldn't be surprised if someday we might get new Vulcan ships that is based off the Jellyfish tech.
Now the one ship I would like to see in STO is the Kelvin-type. Which technically should exist in both universes. But because of the licence, we may never see it in any form. Even though it could easily be written as a varient of the Saladin / Hermes.
But as I said, the line stops at the singularity. If it didn't exist prior, its not going to happen in STO, period.
Its almost 1 am, too tired to make this long, but I'll answer one point. Did I have to get a shiny new toy to break the mold to make my Intrepid a damage dealer?
YES, Ihad to get a LOT of shiny toys, five Refit ship classes to be exact.
I've taken to buying all of the refits, stripping them for parts (anything unique) then dismissing them. You'd be surprised what a Science ship can do with a couple of Escort and Cruiser consols. Wide Arc Quantum torpedos and the two point defense turrets are very useful on a number of ships.
As for alternate timelines/realities, reall dude, we're talking about STAR TREK, the laws of time, space and existance have been stretched, twisted, tied and cut more times over than a peace of swiss cheese. We can go back and forth, but the fact remains nothing is outside the realm of possibility with this series.
After all, many people have said for decades that nothing could make Wrath of Khan look bad, yet here we are now, the impossible accomplished.
And yes, I do hate the JJ movies OVER ALL, but that doesnt mean I hate everything about them. Same with sea food, I hate it, all of it, the smell of any sort of sea food makes me ill and green, but I love the thrill of fishing.
You can enjoy and like parts of something without liking all of it. To this day I reject the existance of Star Trek Generations and Enterprise. They had things I liked (such as the Enterprise B and the follow up to the TOS episode The Web) but on the whole, I cant watch Generations beyond the first ten minutes, and cant watch a single episode of Enerprise. I sawthem once, just so I can say that I HAVE seen them.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Thank god for small mercies in the form of people who actually understand continuity.
I'd like to point out that despite what you're saying, you didn't need Cryptic to model and code and pay the money for licensing rights for a brand new ship that breaks canon just so that you could make a damage-dealing Intrepid. You took what was available, and you made it work.
So why risk money and time and effort making a new cruiser when a decent player can turn a cruiser into a DPS ship with what's already in-game? Seems like massive waste of resources when there are many issues with the game that need to be the Dev's main priority.
Rule of cool is not an excuse to break canon. Ever. Neither is it acceptable to do it simply to break the mold of established gameplay.
This timeline is not cyclical. Just because the New Trek movies take place in 2259, doesn't mean that by New Trek's 2409 it'll be exactly the same timeline as we know in STO.
I'm having trouble comprehending what you've just said. You do realise that due to the events of 2009's Star Trek, Enterprise is the only thing from before JJVerse that is considered canon?
Uh, huh. So I suppose Sela doesnt exist, because her mother died in our universe, so the one from the alternate universe/timeline couldnt have gone back in time on the Enterprise C, get captured and have a kid.
Huh, wonder how that got past the games writers? Why would they have a character who doesnt really exist play such an important role? After all, according to you anything from an alternate universe/timeline cant have any effect on the original one.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
There are only 20 different ways they could bridge the universes if they really felt like it... come on its Trek when have they not just written what they needed to make money when it suited them before.
The fact that we as trek fans for some reason seem to think the guys that own the Trek IP have some willingness or duty to uphold what is "canon" is pretty silly. Come one things become "canon" when the people they hire to write it so write it so.
Dude, you just paraphrased one of the commandmets I live by as an author:
"Writers lie. So do tape recorders and video cameras. So does memory. As a fiction writer this doesn't bother me at all. I only have to be true to my imagination, to the characters I create and the events that I cause. In fiction, the writer is God, without quarreling apostles, without competing deities, and without any foot-dragging villagers." -Amy Bloom
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Not when the original timeline/universe theoretically ceased to exist, no, it can't.
Really? But in the original universe Enterprise C had already perished. It was presented as what happened was Enterprise C from our timeline wound up in an alternate reality/timeline, where it picked up that universes Tasha Yar, who traveled through a rift that took it back to that Enterprise C's universe/timeline.
Going by this, there were two Tasha Yars to exist in a single timeline. One who died a meaningless death, and anothe who died trying to escape from prison with her daughter. Both were real, but one was from an alternate timeline/dimension.
That being said, why is it impossible for this to happen again? A ship from the past end up in an alternate future from its own.
That timeline you are so fond of, it shows the original timeline and the JJ universe running side by side. If the original universe ceased to exist as a result of the JJ movies, then the timeline would stop completly at the point of the singularity, which was before this game starts, and the only continuing timeline would be the JJ universe.
For both to run side by side means they both exist at the same time, just alternate/parallell to each other.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
What he said....
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Zho'ee
Stewart Gilligan "Stewie" Griffin