Not exactly. The Enterprise has mass. A lot of mass. That mass is moving in a certain direction, and thus has momentum. When Shinzon reverses direction of his ship, the Enterprise's conservation of momentum will keep it moving in the same direction it already was. While it would receive some reverse pull from all of the bits jammed together, it wouldn't stop on a dime and go backwards with the Scimitar.
Based on everything I know about physics, two objects mashed together that are then exposed to a singular force (the Scimitar's reverse thrust) would travel together, not separate. There's no force holding the Enterprise in place while the Scimitar backs up.
not Exactly. The Enterprise Has Mass. A Lot Of Mass. That Mass Is Moving In A Certain Direction, And Thus Has Momentum. When Shinzon Reverses Direction Of His Ship, The Enterprise's Conservation Of Momentum Will Keep It Moving In The Same Direction It Already Was. While It Would Receive Some Reverse Pull From All Of The Bits Jammed Together, It Wouldn't Stop On A Dime And Go Backwards With The Scimitar.
Eta: Just Reviewed The Scene Again (it Had Been A Long Time Since I'd Seen It). When Picard Crashes Into The Scimitar, They Both (appear To) Come To A Stop. When The Scimitar Reverses, The Conservation Of Momentum Keeps The Enterprise Still, As It Would Take A Lot Of Force To Move The Enterprise, And The Little Bits That Are Intermingled Between The Two Give Up Much More Easily.
Based on everything I know about physics, two objects mashed together that are then exposed to a singular force (the Scimitar's reverse thrust) would travel together, not separate. There's no force holding the Enterprise in place while the Scimitar backs up.
Yes there is, MASS. The Enterprise has a tremendous amount of mass (as does the Scimitar). Moving that mass takes a tremendous amount of effort. The Scimitar is moving because it's engines tell it to. The enterprise is only being told to move via the tenuous connections between it and the Scimitar.
If you want to argue that the Enterprise is now within the warp bubble of the Scimitar or something. . . fine, but from a physics standpoint, the Enterprise would stay still.
Besides, they only appear to us to be at a standstill. For all we know, both ships are already moving in the same direction, and the Scimitar is only increasing it's own movement in that same direction.
Based on everything I know about physics, two objects mashed together that are then exposed to a singular force (the Scimitar's reverse thrust) would travel together, not separate. There's no force holding the Enterprise in place while the Scimitar backs up.
The mass/inertia of the ship would have to be overcome to have it move. As the ships were not fused together, the parts that were intermingling did not have enough traction/friction to keep them together to overcome the ship's inertia. They would separate.
Formerly Known as Protector from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
Yes there is, MASS. The Enterprise has a tremendous amount of mass (as does the Scimitar). Moving that mass takes a tremendous amount of effort. The Scimitar is moving because it's engines tell it to. The enterprise is only being told to move via the tenuous connections between it and the Scimitar.
Here's where the argument comes into play:
How tenuous is the mangling. If, as I think a not inconsiderable number of people (myself included) seem to think, the ramming action jammed the two ships together so firmly that the static friction between the two ships overcomes the inertia, then the ships wouldn't separate.
Based on everything I know about physics, two objects mashed together that are then exposed to a singular force (the Scimitar's reverse thrust) would travel together, not separate. There's no force holding the Enterprise in place while the Scimitar backs up.
Your knowledge has failed you.
an object at rest tends to stay at rest. Once the Enterprise has collided with the Scimitar, and both objects are stationary, they want to stay that way unless acted upon by an outside force. The Scimitar's thrusters are acting on the Scimitar. The force required to move the Enterprise is going to be pretty big, and even after the two have collided, they're not -attached-. Certainly, at least, not by anything that's going to withstand the force of the Scimitar's engines. The areas where the two ships are hooked together are going to provide some accelleration to the enterprise before girders tear loose, but it'd be pretty minimal, and it'd take a -lot- to move a starship of that size.
How tenuous is the mangling. If, as I think a not inconsiderable number of people (myself included) seem to think, the ramming action jammed the two ships together so firmly that the static friction between the two ships overcomes the inertia, then the ships wouldn't separate.
If not, then what shown on screen would occur.
Honestly, the bits that are hooked together would consist mostly of bits of metal that have already been stressed past their point of failure, and are way past the point of elasticity. I'd be willing to bet that, relative to the force required to move either of the two ships, the friction force between them would be pretty much nonexistant.
Honestly, the bits that are hooked together would consist mostly of bits of metal that have already been stressed past their point of failure, and are way past the point of elasticity. I'd be willing to bet that, relative to the force required to move either of the two ships, the friction force between them would be pretty much nonexistant.
Ding ding ding!
Seeing as none of us were there to measure the structure integrity of the two ships, or their respective mingling bits, I think we can assume that what was shown on screen was accurate to the situation, and that those mingling bits did not offer enough of a hold to move the Enterprise with the Scimitar.
Mythbusters tried this with a small compact and two Semi Tractor/Trailers, on MULTIPLE occasions, and every time, the compact car, though totalled, was easily distinguishable, from the semis, and readily detachable.
There's a few things I like about Nemesis. The director's commentary for one. Vast improvement. And the fact that when the Enterprise jumped to warp, you caught a glimpse of the warp (plasma) trail, which was nice. Beaming in an entire ship, that too. The fight in the Bassen Rift has to be one of my all-time favorites, save for the telepathic targeting bit. (Really?)
Other than that, though... Nemesis is a veritable Clich? Pride parade.
We have:
One Evil Overlord, evil for evil's sake.
One Doomsday Weapon.
One alienated Trusted Lieutenant turning against the evil one.
Not one, but two (2) sets of Evil Twins.
And somehow, a carchase. In Star Trek.
Oh, and of course there's a fight over a ledge.
Add to that the agonizing start, the usual TNG movie's adolescent jokes (hoho Worf gotta go to a wedding nekkid and Picard has a flabby belly!), the way unnecessary telepathic space TRIBBLE making me wonder how someone with priorities that far out of whack even gets a job, let alone an Empire, and the horribly re-re-re-re-regurgitated Hollywood stock dialogue (the only reason that Romulan ale banter MID-BATTLE doesn't get you slapped with a plagiary lawsuit is cause no one remembers who started that!), this is the movie that made Insurrection look good to me.
The poor saucer section yes, but what about all those crew members who died being crushed without warning? Noone ever did give out a warning to free the forward section of the whole dear Enterprise... But hey, Picard could type on his screen and let Troi press the "crash-buttons".
Speaking of Troi...wouldn't she have to feel sudden emotional pain and have a sort of nervous breakdown the moment all those personnel died? In TNG she could sense pain...
When the Enterprise beam the scorpion aboard it got me thinking. On a carrier the hanger bays are a particularly vulnerable section. So with transporter technology being what it is, why not make a carrier that does not need to open her bays to deploy/recover her progeny. Instead the fighters are beamed out and then back in with the heavily reinforced bays only opening in the event of an emergency.
REAAALLLLLLYYY!!!!!!! a Simple phaser at the warpcore could do the trick, Works for Data later on.
Transporter is offline....a simple message could have worked computer did not need to blow the console in my face...love Geordi
Picard: The Earth is at stake there are lots of Remans on bored....no I must do this alone becasue he is my clone REALLY!! at least have a team of redshirts take a shuttle and let them all die and Picard survives alone. Hell drive the Argo in the halls since a fighter fits.
So a stealth ship with undetectable cloak, and is a flying death ship from hell....Let's fly through the Great Bloom so we can't contact Starfleet.
So a stealth ship with undetectable cloak, and is a flying death ship from hell....Let's fly through the Great Bloom so we can't contact Starfleet.
Yeah well....you know even if they'd been able to contact Starfleet they would've gotten the typical "the nearest help is 3 days away at maximum warp" runaround.
Remember that other starships make a point to hightail it to a different sector whenever the Enterprise is around. :P
Yeah well....you know even if they'd been able to contact Starfleet they would've gotten the typical "the nearest help is 3 days away at maximum warp" runaround.
Remember that other starships make a point to hightail it to a different sector whenever the Enterprise is around. :P
I rather have that than think Picard and crew were dumb enough to fly into an area that cuts off all com traffic.... or at least not surprised when it happened....many instance in Trek where they look ahead where they're flying through, and note stuff like that.
I rather have that than think Picard and crew were dumb enough to fly into an area that cuts off all com traffic.... or at least not surprised when it happened....many instance in Trek where they look ahead where they're flying through, and note stuff like that.
Well data realised at the last moment what a tactical position it will be in the rift and Picard looked very surprised.
When the Enterprise beam the scorpion aboard it got me thinking. On a carrier the hanger bays are a particularly vulnerable section. So with transporter technology being what it is, why not make a carrier that does not need to open her bays to deploy/recover her progeny. Instead the fighters are beamed out and then back in with the heavily reinforced bays only opening in the event of an emergency.
I think I can answer that one; power consumption.
You're in a fight, where would you rather have the ship's power being directed; shields and weapons or beaming fighters into space that could fly themselves out an open door?
It's a good idea in theory, and maybe for rapid deployment when they need it, but in practice you'd want to be able to fly your fighter into the hanger, have the ground crew load up another batch of torpedoes and fly back out without having to hail the ship and ask "Captain, could you pretty please beam me back into the hanger?"
Not to mention that shields go up, transporters go down - it's circumvented or ignored occasionally, but the general rule of thumb is that you can't beam through shields, so every time you wanted to beam a fighter on or off the ship, they'd have to drop their shields and become an easy target... and besides, you beam them off, that means somebody else could sneak right up behind you - we'll say cloaked - drop that cloak and for their first attack, beam all your fighters into space. Suddenly you've got a capital ship with no Combat Air Patrol - the enemy's own fighters are going to have a field day.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." -- Q, TNG: "Q-Who?"
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I imagine Commander Maddox was back at Star Fleet Command saying, " See I told you! But did you listen to me? NO!"
It wasent too bad of a TNG finally, too bad they didnt add in those deleted scenes. I kind of hoped Q would have been in one of thier movies. I still think Deanna would have been better with Worf, its good to see Riker go, everytime hes left in command the ship gets wrecked! I know Kirk is a fav of everyone because of his daring action adventure heroics and always getting the girl, but Picard was my favorite because they made his character wise, patient and steadfast diplomat. A rolemodel! I even made a cat dedicated to that character "Caitian Picard - Jean-Luc Nyan Picard" Together with his crew of cats, Meowna troy, Tomcat Riker, Jordy LaFuzz, The Nyandroid Data, and Worf the Ferisan
Personally I loved Nemesis but I think that what a lot of people had a problem with was the lazy writing as the Story is basically a rehash of The Wrath of Khan and to a lesser extent The Search for Spock.
Both Villains were genetically engineered.
Khan blamed Kirk for the death of his wife for stranding them on Ceti Alpha V and this seeds the drive for his vengeance.
Shinzon blames Picard for his existence stating that Picard had everything and he had nothing, they were the products of environment not of genetics.
Khan's quest for Vengeance ultimately destroys him in that his vendetta against Kirk compels him to fight pursue kirk, kirk in fact goads him questioning the "Superior Intellect"
Likewise it is Shinzons hatred for Picard that leads to his destruction, Picard realises that Shinzon will pursue him and draws him away from Earth. Shinzon even says that it is too bad he will not witness the victory of the Echo over the Voice.
The Final Battle of both films takes place in a Nebula and the interfering nature of the nabula is a big plot device in both films furthermore in both films the captains win the respective battles via an epiphany that comes from the knowledge of their enemy although this is slightly more profound in the case of Picard.
Helped by Spock, Kirk realises that Khan is using 2 dimensional tactics and adjusts his tactics to compensate and defeat Khan.
Picard actually says "We've got him" and then goes on to say Shinzon thinks he knows what he is going to do so then Picard acts totally unpredictably and orders the Enterprise to Ram the Scimitar while distracting Shinzon.
Both films are Centred around a Doomsday Weapon, The Genesis Device and Thalaron weaponry.
Both villains after they are defeated try to use their weapons to exact their Final vengeance
Both Crews are saved by the Inhuman element of the crew in what turns out to be a very Human act as they sacrifice themselves to save others. Spock and Data.
Spock is resurrected in on the Genesis planet and then he is given his katra back from Mccoy. Transversely Data trys to share his mind with B4 and apparently fails however at the end of the film starts to sing Blue Skies.
So these are the main similarities but there are other subtle similarities!
Comments
Based on everything I know about physics, two objects mashed together that are then exposed to a singular force (the Scimitar's reverse thrust) would travel together, not separate. There's no force holding the Enterprise in place while the Scimitar backs up.
Science!!!
Yes there is, MASS. The Enterprise has a tremendous amount of mass (as does the Scimitar). Moving that mass takes a tremendous amount of effort. The Scimitar is moving because it's engines tell it to. The enterprise is only being told to move via the tenuous connections between it and the Scimitar.
If you want to argue that the Enterprise is now within the warp bubble of the Scimitar or something. . . fine, but from a physics standpoint, the Enterprise would stay still.
Besides, they only appear to us to be at a standstill. For all we know, both ships are already moving in the same direction, and the Scimitar is only increasing it's own movement in that same direction.
The mass/inertia of the ship would have to be overcome to have it move. As the ships were not fused together, the parts that were intermingling did not have enough traction/friction to keep them together to overcome the ship's inertia. They would separate.
Please enable us to buy a token with Zen to faction change a 25th Century FED to a TOS FED.
Here's where the argument comes into play:
How tenuous is the mangling. If, as I think a not inconsiderable number of people (myself included) seem to think, the ramming action jammed the two ships together so firmly that the static friction between the two ships overcomes the inertia, then the ships wouldn't separate.
If not, then what shown on screen would occur.
Your knowledge has failed you.
an object at rest tends to stay at rest. Once the Enterprise has collided with the Scimitar, and both objects are stationary, they want to stay that way unless acted upon by an outside force. The Scimitar's thrusters are acting on the Scimitar. The force required to move the Enterprise is going to be pretty big, and even after the two have collided, they're not -attached-. Certainly, at least, not by anything that's going to withstand the force of the Scimitar's engines. The areas where the two ships are hooked together are going to provide some accelleration to the enterprise before girders tear loose, but it'd be pretty minimal, and it'd take a -lot- to move a starship of that size.
Honestly, the bits that are hooked together would consist mostly of bits of metal that have already been stressed past their point of failure, and are way past the point of elasticity. I'd be willing to bet that, relative to the force required to move either of the two ships, the friction force between them would be pretty much nonexistant.
Ding ding ding!
Seeing as none of us were there to measure the structure integrity of the two ships, or their respective mingling bits, I think we can assume that what was shown on screen was accurate to the situation, and that those mingling bits did not offer enough of a hold to move the Enterprise with the Scimitar.
Mythbusters tried this with a small compact and two Semi Tractor/Trailers, on MULTIPLE occasions, and every time, the compact car, though totalled, was easily distinguishable, from the semis, and readily detachable.
Other than that, though... Nemesis is a veritable Clich? Pride parade.
We have:
One Evil Overlord, evil for evil's sake.
One Doomsday Weapon.
One alienated Trusted Lieutenant turning against the evil one.
Not one, but two (2) sets of Evil Twins.
And somehow, a carchase. In Star Trek.
Oh, and of course there's a fight over a ledge.
Add to that the agonizing start, the usual TNG movie's adolescent jokes (hoho Worf gotta go to a wedding nekkid and Picard has a flabby belly!), the way unnecessary telepathic space TRIBBLE making me wonder how someone with priorities that far out of whack even gets a job, let alone an Empire, and the horribly re-re-re-re-regurgitated Hollywood stock dialogue (the only reason that Romulan ale banter MID-BATTLE doesn't get you slapped with a plagiary lawsuit is cause no one remembers who started that!), this is the movie that made Insurrection look good to me.
Also...
Admiral Janeway.
It could've been a good movie. But it wasn't.
Speaking of Troi...wouldn't she have to feel sudden emotional pain and have a sort of nervous breakdown the moment all those personnel died? In TNG she could sense pain...
REAAALLLLLLYYY!!!!!!! a Simple phaser at the warpcore could do the trick, Works for Data later on.
Transporter is offline....a simple message could have worked computer did not need to blow the console in my face...love Geordi
Picard: The Earth is at stake there are lots of Remans on bored....no I must do this alone becasue he is my clone REALLY!! at least have a team of redshirts take a shuttle and let them all die and Picard survives alone. Hell drive the Argo in the halls since a fighter fits.
So a stealth ship with undetectable cloak, and is a flying death ship from hell....Let's fly through the Great Bloom so we can't contact Starfleet.
Yeah well....you know even if they'd been able to contact Starfleet they would've gotten the typical "the nearest help is 3 days away at maximum warp" runaround.
Remember that other starships make a point to hightail it to a different sector whenever the Enterprise is around. :P
I rather have that than think Picard and crew were dumb enough to fly into an area that cuts off all com traffic.... or at least not surprised when it happened....many instance in Trek where they look ahead where they're flying through, and note stuff like that.
Well data realised at the last moment what a tactical position it will be in the rift and Picard looked very surprised.
You're in a fight, where would you rather have the ship's power being directed; shields and weapons or beaming fighters into space that could fly themselves out an open door?
It's a good idea in theory, and maybe for rapid deployment when they need it, but in practice you'd want to be able to fly your fighter into the hanger, have the ground crew load up another batch of torpedoes and fly back out without having to hail the ship and ask "Captain, could you pretty please beam me back into the hanger?"
Not to mention that shields go up, transporters go down - it's circumvented or ignored occasionally, but the general rule of thumb is that you can't beam through shields, so every time you wanted to beam a fighter on or off the ship, they'd have to drop their shields and become an easy target... and besides, you beam them off, that means somebody else could sneak right up behind you - we'll say cloaked - drop that cloak and for their first attack, beam all your fighters into space. Suddenly you've got a capital ship with no Combat Air Patrol - the enemy's own fighters are going to have a field day.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-trek/
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
It wasent too bad of a TNG finally, too bad they didnt add in those deleted scenes. I kind of hoped Q would have been in one of thier movies. I still think Deanna would have been better with Worf, its good to see Riker go, everytime hes left in command the ship gets wrecked! I know Kirk is a fav of everyone because of his daring action adventure heroics and always getting the girl, but Picard was my favorite because they made his character wise, patient and steadfast diplomat. A rolemodel! I even made a cat dedicated to that character "Caitian Picard - Jean-Luc Nyan Picard" Together with his crew of cats, Meowna troy, Tomcat Riker, Jordy LaFuzz, The Nyandroid Data, and Worf the Ferisan
Both Villains were genetically engineered.
Khan blamed Kirk for the death of his wife for stranding them on Ceti Alpha V and this seeds the drive for his vengeance.
Shinzon blames Picard for his existence stating that Picard had everything and he had nothing, they were the products of environment not of genetics.
Khan's quest for Vengeance ultimately destroys him in that his vendetta against Kirk compels him to fight pursue kirk, kirk in fact goads him questioning the "Superior Intellect"
Likewise it is Shinzons hatred for Picard that leads to his destruction, Picard realises that Shinzon will pursue him and draws him away from Earth. Shinzon even says that it is too bad he will not witness the victory of the Echo over the Voice.
The Final Battle of both films takes place in a Nebula and the interfering nature of the nabula is a big plot device in both films furthermore in both films the captains win the respective battles via an epiphany that comes from the knowledge of their enemy although this is slightly more profound in the case of Picard.
Helped by Spock, Kirk realises that Khan is using 2 dimensional tactics and adjusts his tactics to compensate and defeat Khan.
Picard actually says "We've got him" and then goes on to say Shinzon thinks he knows what he is going to do so then Picard acts totally unpredictably and orders the Enterprise to Ram the Scimitar while distracting Shinzon.
Both films are Centred around a Doomsday Weapon, The Genesis Device and Thalaron weaponry.
Both villains after they are defeated try to use their weapons to exact their Final vengeance
Both Crews are saved by the Inhuman element of the crew in what turns out to be a very Human act as they sacrifice themselves to save others. Spock and Data.
Spock is resurrected in on the Genesis planet and then he is given his katra back from Mccoy. Transversely Data trys to share his mind with B4 and apparently fails however at the end of the film starts to sing Blue Skies.
So these are the main similarities but there are other subtle similarities!