At least nemesis was trying to be wait for it star trek, not some starwars/startrek crossover.
No, Nemesis was trying to be another First Contact-type of cash-cow that was using oogly-boogly aliens, the Picard-Data team (again), and pew-pew-pew to bring people to the theater.
No, Nemesis was trying to be another First Contact-type of cash-cow that was using oogly-boogly aliens, the Picard-Data team (again), and pew-pew-pew to bring people to the theater.
This. 2009 is, at least, a reboot, and as such I don't really mind it trying to have it's own identity. The next gen movies pretty much all felt like they'd taken the identity of the show and characters they were based on and chucked them out the window while they flailed about trying to figure out (via trial and error) why people liked Star Trek II so much.
This. 2009 is, at least, a reboot, and as such I don't really mind it trying to have it's own identity. The next gen movies pretty much all felt like they'd taken the identity of the show and characters they were based on and chucked them out the window while they flailed about trying to figure out (via trial and error) why people liked Star Trek II so much.
Totally agree with this.
The way I see it, the biggest differences between how the TOS cast are portrayed in their movies vs the TNG cast in theirs is 1. TOS movies are derived from a mostly action-oriented series, 2. The fact that the cast are all past their prime in the movie era is never ignored, and is sometimes central to the story, and 3. The post-Enterprise career plans for most of the crew were never really discussed at length or made a central issue prior to the movies, thus their presence and/or lack there of on the ship is essential and/or obvious during the film.
The TNG movies ignored all that, as well as the fact the main cast is pretty well defined:
While as a series it has plenty of adventure, TNG is faaaaar more cerebral-based, due mostly in part because of the main character, Captain Picard. He's known for trying his best to avoid conflict (where as Kirk was known for facing it head on) and is much more scientific and analytical in his perceptions of the universe he lives in. He also sets the tone for how the rest of the crew act/interact since he's the leader. Overall, the TNG cast were never really meant to be action stars, and aside from Worf, most of them are actually pretty laid-back kind of people. And then BAM! now they're action stars! - lol, what?
We also know that many of the crew think about their futures and possible career changes they may choose after their tour on the Enterprise is over. So when we see things that we know don't make sense, we tend to question the premise, as well as the point of having certain characters do what they do with their going-nowhere-"yup, I'm still here" presence on the ship. With regards to the aspects of age and their post Enterprise careers:
Riker - get a ship already. You've been a 1st officer for 20yrs.
Troi - do something with your rank or get married...or even better - both!
Worf - how many times can we make excuses for you to happen to be on the Enterprise when you should be on DS9 reciting Klingon love poetry to your spotted wife? And what about that assignment to Qo'noS after the Dominion War was over as the Federation Ambassador? Ah TRIBBLE it - let's just pretend it didn't happen and put you back on the Enterprise again because people think you're kewl.
Data - Why are you not 1st officer yet? Oh yeah, because Riker won't man up and leave your chair.
It's just one of those things that's "cool" to hate, even if you secretly like it, kinda like Nickleback.
I don't hate it. I just don't think it's a very good Trek movie. It's a nice Action Film but the characters have no more resemblance to the TNG crew I watched for 7 years then JJ's crew resemble the TOS crew I have seen in re-runs hundreds of times.
They could have replaced the Enterprise E with the USS Sutherland and an unknown crew we'd never seen before and it wouldn't have made any real difference to the overall story. It still would have just been a Trek-themed sci-fi Action Film.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
It's just one of those things that's "cool" to hate, even if you secretly like it...
Or, maybe people - like myself - just don't like it because...it's not a good movie? Sorry, but aside from the new Romulan uniforms, the soundtrack and a great CGI rendition of the Romulan capital, I find the entire premise and execution of the movie to be completely offensive.
1) You have a picard clone that overthrows the romulan government with support of the remans...btw nemesis is the first we ever hear about them.
2) The wedding .....seriosuly i would think they could stop doing the whole love boat theme from TNG by the time of nemesis.
3) A ship that can fire while cloaked?....hmm i wonder where ive heard that before hmm
4) Shinzon... yeah like the xenophobic rommies would listen to a human clone that right there lowers credibility
5) Worf yes worf he left the enterprise was stationed on DS9 then by some wild fluke was back on the enterprise in time for "First contact" ok i liked his quote "Assimilate this" on first contact lol.
Well anyways look who pops back in on nemesis..worf by then it was a pointless metaphor for a cliched trek character.
6) Its story was a hodge podge of plots stemming from other trek movies it was like watching wrath of khan , the voyage home, legacy and tossed in the romulans like we would not notice.
well ok after all that nemesis is by far not as bad as Star trek V and insurection
Or, maybe people - like myself - just don't like it because...it's not a good movie? Sorry, but aside from the new Romulan uniforms, the soundtrack and a great CGI rendition of the Romulan capital, I find the entire premise and execution of the movie to be completely offensive.
Have to admit, that 30ish second fly-by through space past Remus and down to the capital is probably the most badass piece of the movie... Apart from when Donatra gets naked in the shower sce -- oh wait, that was Starship Troopers
Its a really boring action movie, it's not at all interesting to watch ships shoot each other for an hour. ST2009 was a really interesting and fun action movie that didn't overstay its welcome.
Also, STV is an entertaining movie, it has a silly plot but it's got comedy and good character interaction. I liked quite a few parts of it.
the only thing really wrong with Nemesis is the TALKING...
#1 the tea-party between Picard and Shinzon... BORING, sure it adds needed story background to the Villain... but that could have been done differently / shorter / less boring / bad boring scene
#2 Shinzon wanting to talk to Picard in his ready room as hologram... in the middle of the battle... that whole scene just KILLS the flow of the most important part of this Movie (and i still don't get how he could technically do that anyway... hologram without any holoprojector? not even a mobile emitter?... come on... Kirk and Khan never needed to be in the same room, why was this needed here? *meh*),
huge action scene and then... oh lets sit down and talk before we keep shooting at each other.
I'm sure your guys need a Bio Break too after all this excitement... i'm sure nobody will come up with a last ditch effort to win while we talk, right?...
Oh and that whole Mental **** scene of Troy... that was just horrible, from every point of view.
there are a million other small points that i could point out that were cheesy or uncanny (B-4... rly? another Soong Android?) but the talking scenes really kills the flow of the movie, and you just don't do that to your movie audience.
If Star Trek 2009 proofed one thing, than that the flow of a Movie is more important for rewatchability AND first impression than having every detail / motivation of a character explained in obsessive detail.
Other than that Nemesis and Star Trek 2009 are practically identical Movies.
Pi**ed off Romulan-ish Miner gets HUGE Ship in some unexplained way and fights Enterprise in Revenge and wants to destroy Earth for no other reason than that the Movie Viewer is from Earth...
I liked Nemesis for the most part, but that infamous scene was really too much, that should have been cut completely, just too uncomfortable and unnecessary.
The space battle however, it was intense, you really saw how much damage the Enterprise could take.
overall, the script was weak, bad editing in places and needed a better director.
The most i do with nemesis is watch the battle at the end. that's about it.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Action wise it was good. Story was kinda rough and didn't much make sense. Idea was there, but lacking in the story to get it going. Still over all I think its a good one to watch and enjoy. I still watch it at times. And for once it really showed what the Enterprise-E can do in combat. Where before it would be only a few shots. Unlike the 2 before. I love a good ship battle at times.
To me it was far better than the JJ Trek. The story on it was so stupid. I couldn't watch it. I turned it off when the Enterprise failed to jump to warp. Due to the parking brake was on. I had enough and wanted to puke.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
To me it was far better than the JJ Trek. The story on it was so stupid. I couldn't watch it. I turned it off when the Enterprise failed to jump to warp. Due to the parking brake was on. I had enough and wanted to puke.
Had you stuck it out for a few seconds, you would have realized that that was what they call in the trade a "joke". In point of fact, the inexperienced Lt. Sulu had failed to reinitialize the external inertial damper, which was in place to prevent the ship from drifting while in parking orbit.
Now, the bit where they were falling into a black hole while the FTL was engaged was a bit much - but I was willing to suspend my disbelief at that point for the sake of an interesting escape...
Now, the bit where they were falling into a black hole while the FTL was engaged was a bit much - but I was willing to suspend my disbelief at that point for the sake of an interesting escape...
Well, supposedly, the red-matter black hole affects local subspace as well as spacetime, which would interfere with the warp drive.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
To me it was far better than the JJ Trek. The story on it was so stupid. I couldn't watch it. I turned it off when the Enterprise failed to jump to warp. Due to the parking brake was on. I had enough and wanted to puke.
yeah becasue other Trek movies never did anything stupid like that.
Oh wait they did Scotty and him hitting his head after saying he knew the ship like the back of his head.
Or Star Trek 6 having Uhura and crew sitting there with books reading Klingon to pass as Klingons, god forbid after 100 years of being enemies you would think Star Fleet officers would know how to speak Klingon.
but parking break joke made you puke wow, Trek fans are so dramatic.
for a TNG movie it was just ok, but suffered from several different things going on that simply did not need to be there. We have the main story, the clone backstory, the data story, the Riker and Troi story. There was either too many things interjected or too much cut out of the film to make it a shorter length.
And the Scimitar being a crazy "I Win" ship that was based off of a dominion ship and built in secret without anyone noticing all the while the Shinzon clone making friends with high ranking Romulan officers who would go along with killing the entire senate...just a bit overreaching i think.
And yet not a single person points out the hair! Shinzon was bald... meaning Picard was bald at that age. To prove that, Picard showed a picture of him at that age, in the Academy, with no hair. But yet, as Boothby pointed out when he meet Picard, Picard had hair at the Acadamy! They totally got Picard/Stewart mixed up with Kirk/Shatner.
And yet not a single person points out the hair! Shinzon was bald... meaning Picard was bald at that age. To prove that, Picard showed a picture of him at that age, in the Academy, with no hair. But yet, as Boothby pointed out when he meet Picard, Picard had hair at the Acadamy! They totally got Picard/Stewart mixed up with Kirk/Shatner.
Also in the Q inspired flashback when Picard relived how he got his artificial heart he had hair. The Nemesis writers just butchered Trek canon. When I first saw Shinzon I just figured he shaved his head to mimic Picard.
And yet not a single person points out the hair! Shinzon was bald... meaning Picard was bald at that age. To prove that, Picard showed a picture of him at that age, in the Academy, with no hair. But yet, as Boothby pointed out when he meet Picard, Picard had hair at the Acadamy! They totally got Picard/Stewart mixed up with Kirk/Shatner.
Piccard was probably hairy when he joined
was exposed to radiation in a lab accident
lost his hair
Gained mutant powers
Grew it back
lost his heart
Lost his hair again
or maybe the clone is simply faulty (and thus would never grow hair )
Bad part of Nemesis was when Shinzon reversed his ship to separate from the Enterprise...I would have thought both ships would have moved backwards together..LOL
I agree with all of them except for the review of First Contact.
I love his reviews. He totally sold me on Generations. It's my all-time favorite review of his, which I still chuckle at even more than his Star Wars reviews.
I still like Generations. But I now probably giggle at the plot holes far more than ever before.
The whole bit about Worf not being able to shoot down Soran's missle, he just nails it. Such bad science.
But I mean, I can still sit back and enjoy the film as I did before the review. So I don't know, I just found his reviews to enhance the overall experience.
Also in the Q inspired flashback when Picard relived how he got his artificial heart he had hair. The Nemesis writers just butchered Trek canon. When I first saw Shinzon I just figured he shaved his head to mimic Picard.
So, Picard in the Academy couldn't have just shaved his head? Besides, it wasn't the NEM writers who put that in the movie, I would say blame the director or the art dept.
Bad part of Nemesis was when Shinzon reversed his ship to separate from the Enterprise...I would have thought both ships would have moved backwards together..LOL
True, someone in the scriptwriting committee failed physics forever (as our friends at TVTropes would put it)...
Bad part of Nemesis was when Shinzon reversed his ship to separate from the Enterprise...I would have thought both ships would have moved backwards together..LOL
Newtonian physics lol wuts that
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Bad part of Nemesis was when Shinzon reversed his ship to separate from the Enterprise...I would have thought both ships would have moved backwards together..LOL
Not exactly. The Enterprise has mass. A lot of mass. That mass is moving in a certain direction, and thus has momentum. When Shinzon reverses direction of his ship, the Enterprise's conservation of momentum will keep it moving in the same direction it already was. While it would receive some reverse pull from all of the bits jammed together, it wouldn't stop on a dime and go backwards with the Scimitar.
ETA: Just reviewed the scene again (it had been a long time since I'd seen it). When Picard crashes into the Scimitar, they both (appear to) come to a stop. When the Scimitar reverses, the conservation of momentum keeps the enterprise still, as it would take a lot of force to move the enterprise, and the little bits that are intermingled between the two give up much more easily.
Not exactly. The Enterprise has mass. A lot of mass. That mass is moving in a certain direction, and thus has momentum. When Shinzon reverses direction of his ship, the Enterprise's conservation of momentum will keep it moving in the same direction it already was. While it would receive some reverse pull from all of the bits jammed together, it wouldn't stop on a dime and go backwards with the Scimitar.
Good point, one problem:
The Enterprise went nose-on-nose with the Scimitar. Having the Scimitar reverse would have been the same direction as the Enterprise anyway.
Comments
This. 2009 is, at least, a reboot, and as such I don't really mind it trying to have it's own identity. The next gen movies pretty much all felt like they'd taken the identity of the show and characters they were based on and chucked them out the window while they flailed about trying to figure out (via trial and error) why people liked Star Trek II so much.
The way I see it, the biggest differences between how the TOS cast are portrayed in their movies vs the TNG cast in theirs is 1. TOS movies are derived from a mostly action-oriented series, 2. The fact that the cast are all past their prime in the movie era is never ignored, and is sometimes central to the story, and 3. The post-Enterprise career plans for most of the crew were never really discussed at length or made a central issue prior to the movies, thus their presence and/or lack there of on the ship is essential and/or obvious during the film.
The TNG movies ignored all that, as well as the fact the main cast is pretty well defined:
While as a series it has plenty of adventure, TNG is faaaaar more cerebral-based, due mostly in part because of the main character, Captain Picard. He's known for trying his best to avoid conflict (where as Kirk was known for facing it head on) and is much more scientific and analytical in his perceptions of the universe he lives in. He also sets the tone for how the rest of the crew act/interact since he's the leader. Overall, the TNG cast were never really meant to be action stars, and aside from Worf, most of them are actually pretty laid-back kind of people. And then BAM! now they're action stars! - lol, what?
We also know that many of the crew think about their futures and possible career changes they may choose after their tour on the Enterprise is over. So when we see things that we know don't make sense, we tend to question the premise, as well as the point of having certain characters do what they do with their going-nowhere-"yup, I'm still here" presence on the ship. With regards to the aspects of age and their post Enterprise careers:
Riker - get a ship already. You've been a 1st officer for 20yrs.
Troi - do something with your rank or get married...or even better - both!
Worf - how many times can we make excuses for you to happen to be on the Enterprise when you should be on DS9 reciting Klingon love poetry to your spotted wife? And what about that assignment to Qo'noS after the Dominion War was over as the Federation Ambassador? Ah TRIBBLE it - let's just pretend it didn't happen and put you back on the Enterprise again because people think you're kewl.
Data - Why are you not 1st officer yet? Oh yeah, because Riker won't man up and leave your chair.
:rolleyes:
They could have replaced the Enterprise E with the USS Sutherland and an unknown crew we'd never seen before and it wouldn't have made any real difference to the overall story. It still would have just been a Trek-themed sci-fi Action Film.
Red Letter Media's Generations Review is still my all time favorite.
well theres alot wrong with it
1) You have a picard clone that overthrows the romulan government with support of the remans...btw nemesis is the first we ever hear about them.
2) The wedding .....seriosuly i would think they could stop doing the whole love boat theme from TNG by the time of nemesis.
3) A ship that can fire while cloaked?....hmm i wonder where ive heard that before hmm
4) Shinzon... yeah like the xenophobic rommies would listen to a human clone that right there lowers credibility
5) Worf yes worf he left the enterprise was stationed on DS9 then by some wild fluke was back on the enterprise in time for "First contact" ok i liked his quote "Assimilate this" on first contact lol.
Well anyways look who pops back in on nemesis..worf by then it was a pointless metaphor for a cliched trek character.
6) Its story was a hodge podge of plots stemming from other trek movies it was like watching wrath of khan , the voyage home, legacy and tossed in the romulans like we would not notice.
well ok after all that nemesis is by far not as bad as Star trek V and insurection
Have to admit, that 30ish second fly-by through space past Remus and down to the capital is probably the most badass piece of the movie... Apart from when Donatra gets naked in the shower sce -- oh wait, that was Starship Troopers
Also, STV is an entertaining movie, it has a silly plot but it's got comedy and good character interaction. I liked quite a few parts of it.
{UFP}Thomas45 - Thomas Nixon U.S.S. Majesty Unbound
I liked Nemesis for the most part, but that infamous scene was really too much, that should have been cut completely, just too uncomfortable and unnecessary.
The space battle however, it was intense, you really saw how much damage the Enterprise could take.
overall, the script was weak, bad editing in places and needed a better director.
The most i do with nemesis is watch the battle at the end. that's about it.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
To me it was far better than the JJ Trek. The story on it was so stupid. I couldn't watch it. I turned it off when the Enterprise failed to jump to warp. Due to the parking brake was on. I had enough and wanted to puke.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Now, the bit where they were falling into a black hole while the FTL was engaged was a bit much - but I was willing to suspend my disbelief at that point for the sake of an interesting escape...
Well, supposedly, the red-matter black hole affects local subspace as well as spacetime, which would interfere with the warp drive.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Agreed. Rather than Assignment:Earth, I'd stick The Omega Glory in the rubbish pile.
yeah becasue other Trek movies never did anything stupid like that.
Oh wait they did Scotty and him hitting his head after saying he knew the ship like the back of his head.
Or Star Trek 6 having Uhura and crew sitting there with books reading Klingon to pass as Klingons, god forbid after 100 years of being enemies you would think Star Fleet officers would know how to speak Klingon.
but parking break joke made you puke wow, Trek fans are so dramatic.
And the Scimitar being a crazy "I Win" ship that was based off of a dominion ship and built in secret without anyone noticing all the while the Shinzon clone making friends with high ranking Romulan officers who would go along with killing the entire senate...just a bit overreaching i think.
- Seacat
Also in the Q inspired flashback when Picard relived how he got his artificial heart he had hair. The Nemesis writers just butchered Trek canon. When I first saw Shinzon I just figured he shaved his head to mimic Picard.
Piccard was probably hairy when he joined
was exposed to radiation in a lab accident
lost his hair
Gained mutant powers
Grew it back
lost his heart
Lost his hair again
or maybe the clone is simply faulty (and thus would never grow hair )
I love his reviews. He totally sold me on Generations. It's my all-time favorite review of his, which I still chuckle at even more than his Star Wars reviews.
I still like Generations. But I now probably giggle at the plot holes far more than ever before.
The whole bit about Worf not being able to shoot down Soran's missle, he just nails it. Such bad science.
But I mean, I can still sit back and enjoy the film as I did before the review. So I don't know, I just found his reviews to enhance the overall experience.
So, Picard in the Academy couldn't have just shaved his head? Besides, it wasn't the NEM writers who put that in the movie, I would say blame the director or the art dept.
Newtonian physics lol wuts that
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Not exactly. The Enterprise has mass. A lot of mass. That mass is moving in a certain direction, and thus has momentum. When Shinzon reverses direction of his ship, the Enterprise's conservation of momentum will keep it moving in the same direction it already was. While it would receive some reverse pull from all of the bits jammed together, it wouldn't stop on a dime and go backwards with the Scimitar.
ETA: Just reviewed the scene again (it had been a long time since I'd seen it). When Picard crashes into the Scimitar, they both (appear to) come to a stop. When the Scimitar reverses, the conservation of momentum keeps the enterprise still, as it would take a lot of force to move the enterprise, and the little bits that are intermingled between the two give up much more easily.
Good point, one problem:
The Enterprise went nose-on-nose with the Scimitar. Having the Scimitar reverse would have been the same direction as the Enterprise anyway.