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Balance Escorts, Nerf People requireing nerfs.
anazonda
Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
As the title says:
There is no denying that Escorts are strong... Even stronger than most other ships in the game... And that's how it's supposed to be.
What is NOT Needed is a nerf... Nerfing is a tool of the unenlightened, and only serves to damage the game play experience in the long run, because it inevitably invites other nerfs of other skills and items.
Let's say that they nerf Escort survive-ability? Well... no one flys escorts anymore, because believe it or not... They are actually quite fragile.
People start flying cruiser like ships... Then what? Nerf them too? It's a never-ending circle of nerfs. Thoose who have been here for a long time surely remember how Cruisers got their survive ability nerf, and the Sci nerfs?
If not... See a doc... your memory is damaged.
What is really needed, is that someone at Cryptic is dedicated to sit back, and think... Thing so much that his head hurts and his noose bleeds, thinking of how to balance each and every little thing towards other things, With Hard counters, soft counters and more than one of each, while maintaining usefulness of the different elements that makes a ship unique.
Next, that said person needs to put up a set of rules on how to maintain balance on every new element added to the game, and how such a balance is to be implemented. And then this HAS to be forced on anyone creating new elements for the game.
Basically a checklist that MUST have a proper check-mark on each item, and then get a green-light on the checklist by dedicated testers (The Cryptic favored players for all I care... we all know they are out there... Just someone who isn't working at Cryptic or PWE).
Then finally, We need to nerf the people who demand nerfs... They need to be toned down several levels, and their voices reduced to 25% of their current value.
There is no denying that Escorts are strong... Even stronger than most other ships in the game... And that's how it's supposed to be.
What is NOT Needed is a nerf... Nerfing is a tool of the unenlightened, and only serves to damage the game play experience in the long run, because it inevitably invites other nerfs of other skills and items.
Let's say that they nerf Escort survive-ability? Well... no one flys escorts anymore, because believe it or not... They are actually quite fragile.
People start flying cruiser like ships... Then what? Nerf them too? It's a never-ending circle of nerfs. Thoose who have been here for a long time surely remember how Cruisers got their survive ability nerf, and the Sci nerfs?
If not... See a doc... your memory is damaged.
What is really needed, is that someone at Cryptic is dedicated to sit back, and think... Thing so much that his head hurts and his noose bleeds, thinking of how to balance each and every little thing towards other things, With Hard counters, soft counters and more than one of each, while maintaining usefulness of the different elements that makes a ship unique.
Next, that said person needs to put up a set of rules on how to maintain balance on every new element added to the game, and how such a balance is to be implemented. And then this HAS to be forced on anyone creating new elements for the game.
Basically a checklist that MUST have a proper check-mark on each item, and then get a green-light on the checklist by dedicated testers (The Cryptic favored players for all I care... we all know they are out there... Just someone who isn't working at Cryptic or PWE).
Then finally, We need to nerf the people who demand nerfs... They need to be toned down several levels, and their voices reduced to 25% of their current value.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideaspwebranflakes wrote: »Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
Post edited by anazonda on
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Please stop griefing.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
You misunderstand me... I want general balance... not any one thing...
Please stop griefing me?
They are fine no need to grief any further.I want my escorts left alone.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Ok... not misunderstanding... Ignoring... Stop doing that... it's bad.
General meaning Everything... (On a sidenote: I only own escorts as well).
In STO, escorts = cannons but without the glass.
Give the escorts in STO some GLASS for their cannons!
STO is a diffrent game... no one says the same plastic rules have to apply to STO... Some innovation would be refreshing, don't you think?
Not saying it should nessacarily be this, or not, but nuances makes life interesting.
I dont think they even bothered to read your post.
+1 for your idea though.
In all honesty, it's not really my idea.
I read over these "nerf X, Nerf Y" daily... They are almost more common than "I hate lockboxes" threads by now, and reading them carefully, what both the pro's and cons are asking for is not nerfs.
All they want is to be able to counter and be countered... I just set it into words.
But Yes... I agree.. he didn read my post at all.
I agree, some innovation would be refreshing. Innovation revolving around there actually being a downside to choosing an escort class ship to command in STO. There is no downside to choosing to fly an escort.
Cruisers turn slowly.
Science ships have fewer weapons.
Escorts have ________.
Right now escorts can successfully tank in ESTFs and that's completely unacceptable imo.
They should be glass cannons.
Now the other thing I noticed that was wrong with this thread is the notion that no one plays escorts anymore.
That was the single funniest falsehood I have seen on these forums in a very long time. Escorts are everywhere or we must all be halucinating the all escort RA's and the all escort STF's we keep seeing every single day.
There are multiple ways of improving the defense of the other ships while cancelling the defense of the escorts.
Armor slots instead of armor consoles limiting the number of armor slots on escorts to 0 and making it so that what was one an armor console would be an armor device that only fit in the armor slot would have a defense bonus on each one of the slots used.
2-3 armor slots carriers
2-3 armor slots cruisers
1-2 armor slots science
0 armor slots escorts
Adding a defense bonus to the number of ships personnel. (that tiny white bar in the ui with the little people shapes on it) the higher that overall number is when maxed the better the hull regen and the better the defense value of the ship so that the highest defense values in the game come from the carriers and cruisers because of the sheer volume of their personnel.
Forcing the skill points to require a hand off so that there would be a severe dps penalty for players putting points into the defensive parts of the skill tree for space on all skill trees would do it as well. Right not there is 0 penalty so every single player puts points in shields, hull, dampeners, and insulators. Make it harder for people to do that or restrict points spent in these parts of the tree (get 1 to 5-6 then you can't put anymore in the dps ones in that same rank). Require a skill tree setup per ship used.
these are just three ways to improve defense and remove the defense of the escort ships forcing them back into the role they were meant to play, vulnerable glass cannons.
It would also ensure the return of roles because debuffing science captains science ships will have returned and cruiser tanks will have returned.
*throws out nerf bats to everyone* HAVE AT IT!
I just keep seeing nerf thread on escort lately so never read your entire post as I took it a let nerf escorts thread part3.sorry.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
LOL. In STO an escort can successfully tank Donatra on elite difficulty without dying and the usual tactic everywhere else is to lower your speed to 1/5th and spam the space bar. Everyone is asking how they can do more damage, not how to make their ship more survivable.
But I agree. To avoid tears do not nerf anything. Buff cruiser and sci damage and then buff every encounter.
The best known Escort, the Defiant, held up the fight with a Borg cube for a more than extended period, from the typhoon sector to sector 001, from the time that took the Enterprise to get from the neutral zone to earth, when most other ships were destroyed (even the admirals ship).
Sure... She was damaged beyond recognition, but she she did survive, and she was still fighting.
OF CAUSE any ship should be able to hold up under fire... Destroying ships in 2-3 volleys is no fun... Even I think that, and I generally like to feel really powerful.
When I say balance, I mean Rock -> Paper -> Sissors, and something inbetween, that allows for anyone to punch out damage, while still not just ripping things apart.
And I don't think a nerf to anything is the answer... Again... There was a time where people said Sci ships were over powered (personally I still belive that)... People cried for a nerf, and they got it... Now... how well did that work out? Same goes for Cruisers btw.
No ship should be a "Glass cannon", or a "Whale"...
Heres an idea I had that, admittedly needs work, still could work if implemented properly:
The diffrence would be that each class would deal a equal amount of damage, but it would make room for say cruisers and sci ships to turn and/or restore shields. So the escorts would need to work in packs, or with the support of cruisers and sci ships.
Again... this idea needs work, and it needs to be balanced towards skills and powers, but its a basic concept that seems infinitely wiser than just nerfing classes to extinction in turns.
Meh... guess I can forgive you... This time..
Well in fairness, a captain in a Delta flyer could probably tank donatra on elite... NPC's ain't that bright.
On a side-note, freely buffing things might not be the best thing either.
Now we are getting to the good stuff. I don't expect them to change the encounters away from DPS races so this could be a perfect solution.
Frankly, the backlash in this thread was your own fault for the title you used.
The "Balance Escorts" part was fine. The "Nerf People" part was provocative. People would have read the post differently if the tone were different going in.
And it's probably going to lead to people getting moderated. That's no threat, just a general observation about how people tend to react. I'd be happier if that wasn't the result.
So, let me say, everyone please read Anazonda's original post carefully and please keep the forum rules in mind when you post.
'Nuff said.
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Couldn't you just merge this thread into one of the others on the same topic? It's been done to death. Nothing really new or informative here.
The next thing you will say is "cruisers aren't supposed to do damage". While I tend to agree with that, it makes for a pretty aggravating game experience. When sto limits to just 3 classes, the general mechanic becomes "everyone support the escort, so he can do damage". Which is boring for most except the escort.
I understand a cruiser shouldn't do escort level damage, but for the most part, escorts can do nearly cruiser level tanking. You need to pick one role like you have made cruisers do.
The problem is that the game doesn't allow Cruiser captains to manage aggro very easily. On top of that, the game doesn't necessarily allow for players to queue up WoW-style as a tank or DPS.
What this means is, the aggro table is pretty much just "Whoever is doing the most damage is targeted". This typically forces Escorts into a tanking role that most do not actually want, and that's why Escorts need to be able to tank.
If Escorts really were made of glass, then Escort pilots would start seeing 30- or 60-second respawn timers in STFs, or pull their punches all of the time to avoid pulling aggro (effectively hamstringing their own damage to Cruiser levels), or just stop flying Escorts entirely.
In short, the problem isn't as simple as "Escorts are too durable". Escorts tanking is a symptom of the poor aggro mechanics in this game.
Unfortunately, a change like this would absolutely wreck PvP - ships would just become unkillable. Survivability across the board would have to be reduced - which would then bleed over into PvE.
I spent the last several months/half year playing around with beams, torpedos, science ships and cruisers.. finding nice setups that could handle pressure and dish it back out. However, when I jumped back into a DHC blaster boat again on a whim... I actually laughed out loud at how.. pitifully easy it was. Then, I put a simple escort together for a mere 200k.. and it was performing at a level near a heavy plasma torp ship I spent months learning to fly, grinding rep and pouring millions of EC into(and it was a heck of a lot easier/brain-dead to fly - although nowhere near as tanky).
I understand what you mean but in truth with simply 3 skill points in threat control, I very rarely ever lose aggro in ESTFs even when I am out damaged by 4 escorts. Most cruiser pilots don't take threat control because they don't understand it also gives resist or they are running a stupid aux2batt build and can't tank.
However that is not the fault of the game mechanics (at least not directly). A cruiser played to its strength can hold aggro without being the highest dps.
Cruiser have been forced to tank or be ineffective. Problem is, everyone has access to the most basic tools for tanking which makes the cruisers role less apparent. Escorts (and some science ships) don't have to make a choice. They can do massive damage and tank. This makes the argument of rock paper scissors flawed. If it were true, every ship would be able to take one kind of ship. As it is now, escorts can kill every other kind, sci can take out escorts and (with the right ship and build) take out cruisers. Cruisers aren't designed to take out anything. Well, fed cruisers anyway.
You either have to remove SDR from EPtS entirely, as cruisers would able to make up most of the difference, or give cruisers access to DHC. Low turn rates, yes but despite popular belief, RCS consoles can make a huge difference.
Personally I would be more in favor of removing SDR from EPtS than giving me DHCs. I don't want to blur the line between roles any more than they are.
That IS how you write texts that get peoples attention...
Im used to that from you guys by now... I never create a post without expecting a mod to close, needlessly mergeing, or heavily moderate it, regardless of it's tone or content...
That is always a good idea..
Still hunting me, are you?
Check Post #17
Well Ironically neither did you... But that's another topic.
Surviveability reduction could also be done with a full balance pass, rather than just lowering values, because thats easy to do.
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
I call BS on that. MAYBE you could pull it off with a tanky escort like the MVAM or Patrol Escort/Fleet Patrol Escort while using an Engineer character. . .those torp spreads pack one heck of a punch.
I would recommend to people this: Don't judge escorts (or any ships, for that matter) by their performance in PvE. You can't balance a damn thing with PvE, because it will never tax your ship to the maximum. That's why balancing is usually done with PvP as the measuring stick, because PvPers draw every bit of performance out of the ships while fighting.
The NPCs in this game rely on one-hit superattacks (especially the boss opponents), and their methodology is rather predictable. Under such circumstances. . .yeah, an escort can seem 'tanky'. Put that same escort in a challenging PvP scenario, and suddenly it's not so tanky.
Of course, most people in this game seem to be PvE Kirks who thumb their noses at PvP, so my words will have little merit with them. Oh well.
I do it all the time in my steam runner with an tac, breen ship with an eng, fleet patrol escort with a tac, vesta with a sci, fleet defiant with a tac (with doffs) and fleet excel with an eng. All of which can do it while only running EPtS1.
Spacebar and tac team nullifies those torps to the point where MAYBE I have to use a Xfer shield strength 2....maybe if I haven't fallen asleep by then.
Using spacebar and tac team, virtually nothing in pve will kill you, save for invisible torps that crit for 600k.