Okay. Technologically, fighters make no sense in Star Trek. Delete all fighter craft and hangars, because it's just a waste of time. You'd be better off filling that hangar bay with spare torpedo casings.
That is what applying space-bound ship designs, concepts, and restrictions gets you, always have. The fighter paradigm works well for sea ships because of the relative trade-offs of kinetic energy, speed, fuel, and transportation medium. Fighters are fast and have a larger sight horizon because they fly, and lifting wings are more efficient than pure rockets for long-distance travel. Ships are slower, have much greater endurance, and don't fall out of the sky if their engines run out of fuel but they have commensurately shorter horizons and kinematic disadvantages as a result.
Neither of these elements is relevant in space. In space, a missile is more efficient than a fighter because a missile only has to go one way and return whereas a fighter must go out and come back. It requires twice the fuel and has commensurate kinematic disadvantages. Plus, it must keep the pilot alive. You're much better off just building a bigger photon torpedo.
Star Trek, however, has generally adopted a modified wet-navy philosophy in these things. The stand-off advantage of carrier strike operations are nullified if you start merging carriers with ships of the line. For this reason, Russian carrier operations are quite different from American carrier operations. American carriers carry very limited self-defense armament on the idea that those carriers will utilize their fighters as their primary strike contingent and that the carrier itself will never engage in combat. Russian carriers carry heavy direct ordinance and significantly improved self-defense armament. In exchange, however, their fighters are primarily tasked for fleet air defense / air superiority.
The entire strike carrier paradigm presupposes that your carrier is not going to close to battle. It would be a waste of an extremely valuable (and expensive) piece of hardware.
So let us examine the paradigm in the context of STO. Some carrier fighters seem obviously tasked for strike roles, such as the Elite Scorpions. They are heavily designed around the anti-structure and anti-hull role with heavy torpedoes. Others are support based, such as the shield repair units. Still others seem to fulfill the idea of a 'battlegroup' concept- frigates, mostly.
Many, however, seem to have no useful purpose. The true 'fighters'- peregrines, stalkers, shuttles, to'duj, Jem'hadar fighters- seem to have no useful purpose in the game. They can't provide an effective fighter screen against hostile capital ships. They have limited efficacy in the long range strike role. They might arguably be effective in providing a fleet screen against enemy fighters and heavy missiles, but I've never seen anyone actually use them this way primarily; probably because of the way ranges are structured, and heavy enemy torpedoes and fighters seem to lack the kind of significance that makes this kind of operation viable.
Don't get me wrong, the 'escort' carriers- the Jem'Hadar Escort Carrier, the KDF Flight Deck Carriers, and the Armitage class- seem primarily to follow the Russian carrier doctrine. This would be fine, except that the fighters aren't capable of holding up their end of the bargain. Ideally, their fighter compliments would be for self-defense against enemy fighters and torpedoes. That's rarely the case, probably because there is not much call for this kind of role.
The heavy carriers, though, are in a much more paradigmatically tricky spot. An Atrox or a Vu'qov is not a true carrier; it has lots of guns and is expected to close to battle. But it's not ideally equipped for that role, either. Its fighters still don't perform suppression and defensive roles. It's basically a jumbo escort carrier, but it makes a lot of tradeoffs to get there. For one thing, the heavy carriers turn abysmally and give up at least one weapons slot for their fighters compared to other ships of their relative size and capability.
It just seems like a poor fit. Those true carriers are mediocre cruisers with fighter hangars bolted on for extra DPS, but that's all they are. Part of this has to do with the poor way fighters are designed in this game and much of it has to do with the poor fighter AI, but it has nothing to do with the fundamental paradigm of carrier fighters either in space or on the sea.
Or the could delete the fighters but keep for example the B rolth hangar
What i mean replace fighters with small craft like how the Fekhiri carries ferjais.
or a vo quv does with the BoP.
Or the could delete the fighters but keep for example the B rolth hangar
What i mean replace fighters with small craft like how the Fekhiri carries ferjais.
or a vo quv does with the BoP.
What role are the frigate pets supposed to meet, though? It's at least (somewhat) more clear what you get with the Bortas pet, or the Odyssey pet, or the MVAM. What's the primary purpose of a carrier that launches frigates?
What role are the frigate pets supposed to meet, though? It's at least (somewhat) more clear what you get with the Bortas pet, or the Odyssey pet, or the MVAM. What's the primary purpose of a carrier that launches frigates?
Maybe that's what carriers do?
Carrying (if large enough) frigates to protect themselves or others?
You don't like STOs implementation of carriers. We get it.
I don't, because it doesn't make any paradigmatic sense. I'm not suggesting that you can't do fighters well in STO, I'm saying that STO doesn't do fighters well. The two things are not the same.
That dislike in no way invalidates a space faring carrier concept.
So long as weapons that can destroy larger ships can be mounted on smaller ships, there will always be a place for those smaller ships.
Yes. Those smaller ships are called missiles. They don't need pilots and they don't need to come back. They're smaller, they're cheaper, they're more cost-effective, they're longer ranged, and they're faster.
The carrier paradigm makes sense on the sea because 'air' and 'water' have different properties which are compatible and work well together. In space, everything is in the same environment.
If you honestly think that any sane commander is going to put Sergeant Schultz the brig guard into a fighter when he has trained pilots at his disposal, you're deluding yourself.
Remember, this is Star Trek. Sergeant Schultz would come back a little worse for wear, but his entire flight of nameless ace pilots would have been shot down to a man for dramatic emphasis.
Carrier-launched craft carrying weapons capable of taking out a much larger warship redefined naval combat on Earth. Carrier-launched craft in STO are capable of carrying weapons that can depopulate worlds, let alone take out damaged/unshielded enemy craft.
An antimatter warhead is an antimatter warhead, regardless of what fires it.
I only know The Next Generation and if my memory serves correctly the main things small craft did in those episodes were: Crash, Blow Up, Be Scanned for Evidence, Malfunction and help out by being really small and maneuverable. Might have blown up something with a Torpedo too.
The key difference is that STO Carrier-launched craft are not as capable as Modern Carrier-launched craft in carrying those out due to weapons and defense technology out-stripping the benefits from the small craft. An Antimatter warhead isn't a big deal when your shields can take two or three and your weapons can destroy the ship that delivered it in as many shots. Also you have several of these weapons when it just has the one launcher.
Yes. Those smaller ships are called missiles. They don't need pilots and they don't need to come back. They're smaller, they're cheaper, they're more cost-effective, they're longer ranged, and they're faster.
The carrier paradigm makes sense on the sea because 'air' and 'water' have different properties which are compatible and work well together. In space, everything is in the same environment.
Show me a missile that can execute an escort or reconnaissance mission. Show me a missile that can carry the same level of firepower that a manned strike craft can, and deploy said firepower intelligently.
You know, I think I know how pilots arguing against designers not putting guns on Vietnam era fighters felt, or against those who lobbied against air to air combat training.
I only know The Next Generation and if my memory serves correctly the main things small craft did in those episodes were: Crash, Blow Up, Be Scanned for Evidence, Malfunction and help out by being really small and maneuverable. Might have blown up something with a Torpedo too.
The key difference is that STO Carrier-launched craft are not as capable as Modern Carrier-launched craft in carrying those out due to weapons and defense technology out-stripping the benefits from the small craft. An Antimatter warhead isn't a big deal when your shields can take two or three and your weapons can destroy the ship that delivered it in as many shots. Also you have several of these weapons when it just has the one launcher.
A single fighter, or even a fighter wing by itself isn't going to take down an enemy fleet. But a fighter wing wolf-pack hunting for damaged ships in support of a friendly force can absolutely do a monstrous amount of harm if deployed correctly.
A single fighter, or even a fighter wing by itself isn't going to take down an enemy fleet. But a fighter wing wolf-pack hunting for damaged ships in support of a friendly force can absolutely do a monstrous amount of harm if deployed correctly.
A light cruiser in the same role can do the job just as well but is almost certain to survive the encounter. A damaged ship is still a great threat to a fighter wing, even by just exploding.
i think that was more the cardassians not biting at what was an obvious attempt to draw their forces out of position than those waves being obliterated before they could actually open a hole in enemy lines
The corollary to this being, of course, that for the Cardassians to have a realistic choice in that matter (i.e. they weren't forced to respond) the peregrines could not have been terribly effective on their own. For them to have not been effective, they either lacked firepower or were vulnerable enough their firepower was not being brought to bear.
Yes, they must resupply. As must every ship engaged in frontline combat. Very few warships are designed for long-term, unsupported deployments (be they present day ones or fictional future ones). In addition, given the capacity for just about any other 25th century vessel to carry a number of strike craft, the option of resupplying a carrier in the field is much more viable.
Let's ditch the real-life comparison stuff, here. We're talking Trek.
But for the fact most of those vessels are far more effective deployed themselves opposed to operating in a logistics role, sure. A role, lest we forget, is greatly diminished in light of starships' ability to self-supply while deployed. Moreover, most Federation vessels (at least) are designed for long-term exploration missions and therefore are designed for self-sufficiency, not for wartime deployment and certainly not to lack self-sufficiency. Canonically, the first actual warship class (as in, designed primarily and exclusively for wartime use) in Starfleet was the Defiant, and it's an escort.
Show me a missile that can execute an escort or reconnaissance mission.
Class (X) probes for one, which are more or less photon torpedoes with the warhead replaced by a mission-appropriate sensor suite, are adequate for reconnaissance. Which, mind you, is another role that has been greatly obviated and/or changed due to Star Trek tech (sensors the ranges of which extend for light-years).
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
Show me a missile that can execute an escort or reconnaissance mission.
Fighters can't escort anything. They have neither the firepower nor the speed to do so effectively.
As for reconnaissance, that's why we have probes. They're smaller, faster, and disposable.
Show me a missile that can carry the same level of firepower that a manned strike craft can, and deploy said firepower intelligently.
Take a Peregrine fighter, replace the cockpit with an antimatter warhead, and run a photonic AI on pocket-watch sized chunk of computronium.
Much more lethal than a manned strike craft, just as intelligent, and far more disposable.
You know, I think I know how pilots arguing against designers not putting guns on Vietnam era fighters felt, or against those who lobbied against air to air combat training.
Don't agree with you there but since we are on the subject why in the world are other carriers from the store able to put out all of their ships at once while the rest have to press the button and wait for the timer to press it again to get the full number of ships out, even those science vessels with shield repair bots which are tiny btw have to wait. This is not good imo, if it's a carrier it should take 1 button to put out the max fighters at once. There should be no waiting when we warp into a map.
__________________________________
STO Forum member since before February 2010. STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
the peregrines could not have been terribly effective on their own. For them to have not been effective, they either lacked firepower or were vulnerable enough their firepower was not being brought to bear.
oh, but they were
at the beginning of those attack runs, we see 3 peregrines firing a volley of cannon fire (just cannon fire mind you; no torpedoes...or at least i don't remember any torpedoes being fired) at a galor and doing serious damage to it
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
at the beginning of those attack runs, we see 3 peregrines firing a volley of cannon fire (just cannon fire mind you; no torpedoes...or at least i don't remember any torpedoes being fired) at a galor and doing serious damage to it
I just watched the episode not long ago; I'd hardly call that serious damage, especially for the fact two of them got destroyed in the exchange.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
at the beginning of those attack runs, we see 3 peregrines firing a volley of cannon fire (just cannon fire mind you; no torpedoes...or at least i don't remember any torpedoes being fired) at a galor and doing serious damage to it
Dominion War era fighters were never shown with anything beyond pulse phaser cannons. But those cannons were absolutely shown inflicting serious damage.
Don't agree with you there but since we are on the subject why in the world are other carriers from the store able to put out all of their ships at once while the rest have to press the button and wait for the timer to press it again to get the full number of ships out, even those science vessels with shield repair bots which are tiny btw have to wait. This is not good imo, if it's a carrier it should take 1 button to put out the max fighters at once. There should be no waiting when we warp into a map.
No carrier in STO can fully deploy in one pulse. All hangars support two separate wings of ships.
A light cruiser in the same role can do the job just as well but is almost certain to survive the encounter. A damaged ship is still a great threat to a fighter wing, even by just exploding.
Star Trek isn't kind to small craft.
See above post regarding how "successful" frigates and light cruisers were in comparison to fighter wings.
The corollary to this being, of course, that for the Cardassians to have a realistic choice in that matter (i.e. they weren't forced to respond) the peregrines could not have been terribly effective on their own. For them to have not been effective, they either lacked firepower or were vulnerable enough their firepower was not being brought to bear.
You're forgetting the Federation fleet in that scenario was outnumbered somewhere between 2-1 and 3-1 prior to the arrival of the KDF task force. Not even a fleet comprised of nothing but Defiants would have been able to go toe to toe with those kinds of odds.
Additionally, the primary objective was not to destroy or engage the Dominion fleet, but to bypass it as much as possible to get to DS9 and prevent the minefield going down.
But for the fact most of those vessels are far more effective deployed themselves opposed to operating in a logistics role, sure. A role, lest we forget, is greatly diminished in light of starships' ability to self-supply while deployed. Moreover, most Federation vessels (at least) are designed for long-term exploration missions and therefore are designed for self-sufficiency, not for wartime deployment and certainly not to lack self-sufficiency. Canonically, the first actual warship class (as in, designed primarily and exclusively for wartime use) in Starfleet was the Defiant, and it's an escort.
The Steamrunner, Norway, Akira and Saber classes would like to have a word with you. Those ships took up a massive portion of the burden of the Dominion War's latter half (as older ships were phased out and replaced), and all were designed with combat in mind.
Class (X) probes for one, which are more or less photon torpedoes with the warhead replaced by a mission-appropriate sensor suite, are adequate for reconnaissance. Which, mind you, is another role that has been greatly obviated and/or changed due to Star Trek tech (sensors the ranges of which extend for light-years).
And probes give you zero operational flexibility when your recon wing happens upon a target of opportunity, or a friendly in distress.
Additionally, the primary objective was not to destroy or engage the Dominion fleet, but to bypass it as much as possible to get to DS9 and prevent the minefield going down.
...and the peregrines were central to that, thanks to Sisko's plan to use them to draw away the Cardassian ships to create a point through which the Federation-allied forces could break through. That only occurred after Dukat gave the order (i.e. chose to go after them opposed to being forced to respond), and from that it can be assumed the peregrines weren't even effective enough to have accomplished their mission on their own merit.
The Steamrunner, Norway, Akira and Saber classes would like to have a word with you. Those ships took up a massive portion of the burden of the Dominion War's latter half (as older ships were phased out and replaced), and all were designed with combat in mind.
And of those four ships, without exception they were seen first during First Contact, not prominently-featured enough to have received a canonical write-up, and even in the (non-canonical) technical manuals lack any particular design attribute that would set them aside as "warships". The only ship that approaches that is the Sabre-class, which states that for its size it was admirably-armed. Which, if that's the bar you're attempting to set here, then also among the list of Starfleet warships would be the Miranda class (extraordinarily well-armed for being a light cruiser), Nova class (almost twice the armament of the Miranda, despite being a science vessel designed for short-range and -term planetary research), and practically every other Starfleet ship shown on-screen sparing the Oberth class and its derivatives through the timeline.
Yet, in The Search we're explicitly told and without ambiguity that of the new ships commissioned by Starfleet with a combat profile in mind (of which the Steamrunner, Norway, Akira, and Sabre may very well be), the Defiant was the first.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
Worst idea in a very long time. This is not BSG with 9000 fighters. Do you have any idea what would happen to PvP or even PvE with even one? It would be a total spam/lag fest, hell the servers would probably crash.
I'm pretty sure they would. Besides, even the big KDF carriers (Vo'quv and Kar'fi aren't nearly big enough to handle a fighter compliment of that size. While some people love fighters with their carriers, I rock the B'rothl Bop's with my Vo'quv. They may not spawn in high numbers, but I do love what they can do in STFs
Vice Admiral Thylek Shran- U.S.S. Omega (Odyssey Class Battleship) United Federation Space Command
Vice Admiral T'vix RRW Talon (Scimitar Drednought)
General S'tal IKS Q'vat (Bortasq' Battle Cruiser)
Hell, I may only be able to deploy four BoP's at once, but I guarantee their hulls will hold better during battle then any fighter.
And all this talk about escorts during the Dominion war is foolish. While the various escort classes comprised a huge chunk of the federation fleet at the time, the shipyards were mainly pumping them out en mass due to the fact being that larger classes (excelsior, galaxy, soverign and so on) were taking longer to build. But look at how many cruisers were attached to the fleet that took on the Dominion during the final battles of the war. I saw no less then eight galaxy class ships in that formation. I don't know what you guys think, but that's a massive amount of firepower. the escorts mainly screened the larger ships from getting the bulk of the fire from the opposing side. (Look at what the Jem'hadar did to the U.S.S Odyssey!) Naval combat is tricky to coordinate, but not hard. Mixed classes on all fronts, each with their own specialties is key to winning large scale battles
Vice Admiral Thylek Shran- U.S.S. Omega (Odyssey Class Battleship) United Federation Space Command
Vice Admiral T'vix RRW Talon (Scimitar Drednought)
General S'tal IKS Q'vat (Bortasq' Battle Cruiser)
I have to say, as an Atrox captian... saying more fighters would kill the server is null...
I deal with AI all the time on the hive, those pesky widows come after me, once i counted as many as 14, buzzing around just me! and you know there was more than that pestering other ships as well, surly they didn't all flock my way... granted they are under powered and swated down quickly by fire at will... that shows that the servers can handle MORE than we are allowed to launch...
At the same time, if there was a couple atrox's on the map it could lead to an issue... maybe...
I don't think i really need more than 12 out at a time, but it would be nice to have better command of my pets, send them further away to a spacific target so i can circle the primary battle and let my pets do the heavy lifting... and being able to see the damn stats so i know when to launch another squad! Pet control cryptic, PET CONTROL! PLEASE!
i know my guns cant reach beyond the 10 limit, but i should be able to send my buddies as far as maybe 20 - 25, so im near them, but still out of the way of primary fire
unless you want to see fighters get a 30% dps nerf in order to launch 30% more of them...*shrugs*
even in canon the galaxy could be refitted as a capital carrier, but its how you implement such into the game in such a way as to not leave carriers as the new goto easyboat.
if all ships had inherent point defence ratings it could make a difference, but thats maybe another topic.
AKA what he's trying to say is: "I don't want my escort to be an equal to a carrier".:P
But IMHO, I love the BoPs they remind me of being in a Fighter Jet.
And I agree though, the Vo'Quv should at the minimum, be able to deploy 6 BoPs. And Jem Dread at least 6 JHAS.
When you look at the size of the ships they deploy at the Frigate Level, if you combined their size, they are easily the mass of 18-24 fighters.
I have an atrox i never use thats because its a white elephant all it launches are weak fighters or weak shuttle craft.
While on the KDF side the Vo'Quv can launch BoP?
So why not let the atrox launch light escorts you know the sabre class escort you get when your a Lt Commander?
Until the atrox can launch something like the light escort they will be nothing more in my eyes then a big giant white elephant and the worst buy ive ever done on this game a real waste of zen.
Comments
BUT I would LOVE to have better AI or "auto-replace" fighters that was lost.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Now those where good times.
Peacekeeper High Command
Scorpius - Zelbinion Mk II
What i mean replace fighters with small craft like how the Fekhiri carries ferjais.
or a vo quv does with the BoP.
What role are the frigate pets supposed to meet, though? It's at least (somewhat) more clear what you get with the Bortas pet, or the Odyssey pet, or the MVAM. What's the primary purpose of a carrier that launches frigates?
Carrying (if large enough) frigates to protect themselves or others?
You don't like STOs implementation of carriers. We get it. That dislike in no way invalidates a space faring carrier concept.
So long as weapons that can destroy larger ships can be mounted on smaller ships, there will always be a place for those smaller ships.
It's possible, but the frigate AI here is badly done, and so it doesn't really accomplish that.
I don't, because it doesn't make any paradigmatic sense. I'm not suggesting that you can't do fighters well in STO, I'm saying that STO doesn't do fighters well. The two things are not the same.
Yes. Those smaller ships are called missiles. They don't need pilots and they don't need to come back. They're smaller, they're cheaper, they're more cost-effective, they're longer ranged, and they're faster.
The carrier paradigm makes sense on the sea because 'air' and 'water' have different properties which are compatible and work well together. In space, everything is in the same environment.
I only know The Next Generation and if my memory serves correctly the main things small craft did in those episodes were: Crash, Blow Up, Be Scanned for Evidence, Malfunction and help out by being really small and maneuverable. Might have blown up something with a Torpedo too.
The key difference is that STO Carrier-launched craft are not as capable as Modern Carrier-launched craft in carrying those out due to weapons and defense technology out-stripping the benefits from the small craft. An Antimatter warhead isn't a big deal when your shields can take two or three and your weapons can destroy the ship that delivered it in as many shots. Also you have several of these weapons when it just has the one launcher.
Show me a missile that can execute an escort or reconnaissance mission. Show me a missile that can carry the same level of firepower that a manned strike craft can, and deploy said firepower intelligently.
You know, I think I know how pilots arguing against designers not putting guns on Vietnam era fighters felt, or against those who lobbied against air to air combat training.
A single fighter, or even a fighter wing by itself isn't going to take down an enemy fleet. But a fighter wing wolf-pack hunting for damaged ships in support of a friendly force can absolutely do a monstrous amount of harm if deployed correctly.
A light cruiser in the same role can do the job just as well but is almost certain to survive the encounter. A damaged ship is still a great threat to a fighter wing, even by just exploding.
Star Trek isn't kind to small craft.
The corollary to this being, of course, that for the Cardassians to have a realistic choice in that matter (i.e. they weren't forced to respond) the peregrines could not have been terribly effective on their own. For them to have not been effective, they either lacked firepower or were vulnerable enough their firepower was not being brought to bear.
Let's ditch the real-life comparison stuff, here. We're talking Trek.
But for the fact most of those vessels are far more effective deployed themselves opposed to operating in a logistics role, sure. A role, lest we forget, is greatly diminished in light of starships' ability to self-supply while deployed. Moreover, most Federation vessels (at least) are designed for long-term exploration missions and therefore are designed for self-sufficiency, not for wartime deployment and certainly not to lack self-sufficiency. Canonically, the first actual warship class (as in, designed primarily and exclusively for wartime use) in Starfleet was the Defiant, and it's an escort.
Class (X) probes for one, which are more or less photon torpedoes with the warhead replaced by a mission-appropriate sensor suite, are adequate for reconnaissance. Which, mind you, is another role that has been greatly obviated and/or changed due to Star Trek tech (sensors the ranges of which extend for light-years).
Spock's Brain.
As for reconnaissance, that's why we have probes. They're smaller, faster, and disposable. Take a Peregrine fighter, replace the cockpit with an antimatter warhead, and run a photonic AI on pocket-watch sized chunk of computronium.
Much more lethal than a manned strike craft, just as intelligent, and far more disposable.
What a totally unrelated issue.
This
/10char
STO Forum member since before February 2010.
STO Academy's excellent skill planner here: Link
I actually avoid success entirely. It doesn't get me what I want, and the consequences for failure are slim. -- markhawman
oh, but they were
at the beginning of those attack runs, we see 3 peregrines firing a volley of cannon fire (just cannon fire mind you; no torpedoes...or at least i don't remember any torpedoes being fired) at a galor and doing serious damage to it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I just watched the episode not long ago; I'd hardly call that serious damage, especially for the fact two of them got destroyed in the exchange.
Spock's Brain.
they did the same amount of damage a galaxy later did to another one with a phaser barrage, and that one got disabled by it
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Dominion War era fighters were never shown with anything beyond pulse phaser cannons. But those cannons were absolutely shown inflicting serious damage.
Peregrines did more damage, and were shown to have a better in combat loss ratio than Miranda-class frigates did.
No carrier in STO can fully deploy in one pulse. All hangars support two separate wings of ships.
See above post regarding how "successful" frigates and light cruisers were in comparison to fighter wings.
You're forgetting the Federation fleet in that scenario was outnumbered somewhere between 2-1 and 3-1 prior to the arrival of the KDF task force. Not even a fleet comprised of nothing but Defiants would have been able to go toe to toe with those kinds of odds.
Additionally, the primary objective was not to destroy or engage the Dominion fleet, but to bypass it as much as possible to get to DS9 and prevent the minefield going down.
The Steamrunner, Norway, Akira and Saber classes would like to have a word with you. Those ships took up a massive portion of the burden of the Dominion War's latter half (as older ships were phased out and replaced), and all were designed with combat in mind.
And probes give you zero operational flexibility when your recon wing happens upon a target of opportunity, or a friendly in distress.
rare hangar got 1 increased hangar storage an 1 extra fighter hitpoints?
...and the peregrines were central to that, thanks to Sisko's plan to use them to draw away the Cardassian ships to create a point through which the Federation-allied forces could break through. That only occurred after Dukat gave the order (i.e. chose to go after them opposed to being forced to respond), and from that it can be assumed the peregrines weren't even effective enough to have accomplished their mission on their own merit.
And of those four ships, without exception they were seen first during First Contact, not prominently-featured enough to have received a canonical write-up, and even in the (non-canonical) technical manuals lack any particular design attribute that would set them aside as "warships". The only ship that approaches that is the Sabre-class, which states that for its size it was admirably-armed. Which, if that's the bar you're attempting to set here, then also among the list of Starfleet warships would be the Miranda class (extraordinarily well-armed for being a light cruiser), Nova class (almost twice the armament of the Miranda, despite being a science vessel designed for short-range and -term planetary research), and practically every other Starfleet ship shown on-screen sparing the Oberth class and its derivatives through the timeline.
Yet, in The Search we're explicitly told and without ambiguity that of the new ships commissioned by Starfleet with a combat profile in mind (of which the Steamrunner, Norway, Akira, and Sabre may very well be), the Defiant was the first.
Spock's Brain.
I'm pretty sure they would. Besides, even the big KDF carriers (Vo'quv and Kar'fi aren't nearly big enough to handle a fighter compliment of that size. While some people love fighters with their carriers, I rock the B'rothl Bop's with my Vo'quv. They may not spawn in high numbers, but I do love what they can do in STFs
Vice Admiral T'vix RRW Talon (Scimitar Drednought)
General S'tal IKS Q'vat (Bortasq' Battle Cruiser)
And all this talk about escorts during the Dominion war is foolish. While the various escort classes comprised a huge chunk of the federation fleet at the time, the shipyards were mainly pumping them out en mass due to the fact being that larger classes (excelsior, galaxy, soverign and so on) were taking longer to build. But look at how many cruisers were attached to the fleet that took on the Dominion during the final battles of the war. I saw no less then eight galaxy class ships in that formation. I don't know what you guys think, but that's a massive amount of firepower. the escorts mainly screened the larger ships from getting the bulk of the fire from the opposing side. (Look at what the Jem'hadar did to the U.S.S Odyssey!) Naval combat is tricky to coordinate, but not hard. Mixed classes on all fronts, each with their own specialties is key to winning large scale battles
Vice Admiral T'vix RRW Talon (Scimitar Drednought)
General S'tal IKS Q'vat (Bortasq' Battle Cruiser)
I deal with AI all the time on the hive, those pesky widows come after me, once i counted as many as 14, buzzing around just me! and you know there was more than that pestering other ships as well, surly they didn't all flock my way... granted they are under powered and swated down quickly by fire at will... that shows that the servers can handle MORE than we are allowed to launch...
At the same time, if there was a couple atrox's on the map it could lead to an issue... maybe...
I don't think i really need more than 12 out at a time, but it would be nice to have better command of my pets, send them further away to a spacific target so i can circle the primary battle and let my pets do the heavy lifting... and being able to see the damn stats so i know when to launch another squad! Pet control cryptic, PET CONTROL! PLEASE!
i know my guns cant reach beyond the 10 limit, but i should be able to send my buddies as far as maybe 20 - 25, so im near them, but still out of the way of primary fire
AKA what he's trying to say is: "I don't want my escort to be an equal to a carrier".:P
But IMHO, I love the BoPs they remind me of being in a Fighter Jet.
And I agree though, the Vo'Quv should at the minimum, be able to deploy 6 BoPs. And Jem Dread at least 6 JHAS.
When you look at the size of the ships they deploy at the Frigate Level, if you combined their size, they are easily the mass of 18-24 fighters.
While on the KDF side the Vo'Quv can launch BoP?
So why not let the atrox launch light escorts you know the sabre class escort you get when your a Lt Commander?
Until the atrox can launch something like the light escort they will be nothing more in my eyes then a big giant white elephant and the worst buy ive ever done on this game a real waste of zen.