I'm with Drakron. The feds aren't at war with the Romulans. The border is tense and there are occasional incidents.... but it's not a war.
The Romulan FE series ends with the Federation invading Romulan territory and Empress Sela openly attacking us.
It's a bit much to assume peace would still be maintained after that and all the other invasions, neutral zone violations and shooting matches between the Federation and the RSE.
The President is upholding a treaty THAT NO LONGER EXISTS.
Sticking to the directives of a treaty THAT NO LONGER EXISTS is delusional, morally bankrupt and outright criminal, because, and I feel I must stress this to you because you do not appear to get it: THE TREATY OF ALGERON NO LONGER EXISTS.
No, it doesn't exist because the nation that it was made with no longer exists.
The Star Empire is fractured and allied with the Iconians, and therefore in a de facto state of war, nullifying all treaties.
No treaty was made with the Republic.
No treaty was made with New Romulus.
It. Does not. Exist.
Let me spell this out to you.
The Treaty of Algeron was made to assure peace between the Federation and the Romulans Star Empire.
The Romulan Star Empire is now in a de facto state of war with the Federation.
Thus: All treaties made with the Romulan Star Empire are null and void. The Federation is under no obligation to uphold and maintain a treaty that is defunct.
And we're back to "I dont like the way something was implemented in the lore, therefore it can't exist".
I was always under the impression that when the Defiant was destroyed, the cloak went along with it.
I am pretty sure the Sao Paulo, which was then renamed to replace the Defiant, never had a cloak. At least I cannot remember it being used if it did.
As for the game breaking cloak bug, it is not working as intended, they broke it but wont put any effort into fixing it.
Most new missions that use the fly text when one of your officers report something, does not break cloak.
However, most if not all old missions still use the old fly text or the popup window which always breaks the cloak.
All the devs have to do is go through all missions and change the popups to the new fly text type, or change the way cloak interacts with popups.
They could do it, if they really wanted to, and for me, the new Romulan faction that will primarily use cloak like the KDF do, is a perfect time to fix that old game breaking bug once and for all....
I was always under the impression that when the Defiant was destroyed, the cloak went along with it.
I am pretty sure the Sao Paulo, which was then renamed to replace the Defiant, never had a cloak. At least I cannot remember it being used if it did.
The Sao Paolo was never shown to cloak. It participated in one battle on-screen, the battle of Cardassia which ended the Dominion Wars.
What? I said implementing ablative armour would be prohibitive, I explained why implementing cloaks would not.
And conveniently ignored your own argument that Jaris-Inyo should have been impeached for not putting ablative armor on every ship in the fleet since that would risk the lives of Starfleet personnel.
No, they don't. But they have a war all the same and it is their duty to do whatever they can to protect the men and women serving in Starfleet from unnecessary harm.
Which if you'll notice is exactly the same quote I used before. And one that pretty clearly spells out an "ends justify the means" mentality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
there is ONE Defiant with a cloak
Precisely. You based your entire argument (that because the first Defiant used a Romulan cloak, that all Romulan ships should have an "I Win" button against every cloaked Fed ship) around one ship, and tried to magically extend it to the entire Defiant class.
there is no class there is exactly ONE ship
with one romulan cloak
and as soon as a fed cloaks he is not a fed
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Again no one has mentioned that ship except you
Right, so you didn't mention it when you explicitly mentioned it.
I didn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Why don't you just change your cars gear box in the middle of the road while under way
Firstly he isn't capable secondly there isn't time
It takes a TEAM and time to replace a cloak
It took the Greatest technical mind in three centuries to actually fit a cloak to a fed power core in the first place and it took him a quarter of an hour
o'brien is a lot less capable
And yet, Rom pulled a cloak out of one ship, attached it to a ship from an entirely different reality, made it functional, and managed to sabotage said ship's entire power grid all by himself.
Rom is a Wesley crusher or a mary sue
and sabotage is easy
any monkey can do it
Rom is not O'brien he is a Ferengi they are used to mix and match tech
Seems fairly straightforward to me.
lets see you do it then
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
so how did you Think they were made??
LEGO??
Translation: "I don't actually have any factual basis to support my argument with, therefore I'll resort to yelling absurdities really loud and hope people don't notice that I haven't provided the proof I've been asked for".
Translation EVERYTHING is Replicated
A replication is identical to the original scanned object
with no change even at the atomic level
you scan a cracked vase you replicate cracked vases
simple enough for you??
and you are the one yelling really loudly
post gene
ergo soft canon
but in any case maquis ships were NOT Federation ships they were junkers with composite construction
How nice of you to not only refuse to address your own contradiction (that Federation tech and Klingon cloaks are incompatible, except when they are shown to be entirely compatible), but also to go back to your ridiculous notion that because you don't like a show it isn't canon.
Maquis are not FEDERATION they are scavengers/terrorists in space
they use jury rig ships
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
but in any case maquis ships were NOT Federation ships they were junkers with composite construction
So a faction of Federation settlers, who used outdated Federation ships retrofitted for guerrilla combat magically aren't using Federation ships because that fact would contradict your entire argument?
They are using Cardassian cargo ships , bajoran space craft and bits of old shuttles
and they are all composite or scratch built
That makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
so you claim that the Federation VIOLATED TREATY and is therefore at war with pretty much everyone?
As a matter of fact, the Federation did violate the Treaty of Algeron. Read the path to 2409.
And have you forgotten that the Feds start out the game at war with everyone?
Except they don't do they
And remember if we break the treaty we lose the war (bad guys in trek always lose)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
you
you keep quoting DS9 relating to STO
you are the one who wants to hang half of starfleet for criminal actions and violation of treaty
I've made zero statements as to the rationality of enforcing the Treaty of Algeron. I've also made zero statements not backed up by on-screen events, or accepted lore.
ANY use of a cloak in the alpha quad is illegal even RIKER won't do it
You, on the other hand, have gone on multiple tangents with nothing but your own claims and dismissal of "non-gene trek" to back said claims and tangents up.
i don't need to back up the fact that there is One defiant and it can not cloak in the alpha or beta quads without the captain going to the BRIG
And conveniently ignored your own argument that Jaris-Inyo should have been impeached for not putting ablative armor on every ship in the fleet since that would risk the lives of Starfleet personnel.
Ignored? I just gave you a specific reason as to why a complicated and rather prohibitive technology from a future that no longer exists would be hard to implement.
Cost vs. benefit. Learn the concept.
Why certainly...
Which if you'll notice is exactly the same quote I used before.
Whatever they can.
Not whatever they want.
Do you notice the difference? No? That's your problem.
Whatever they can includes using cloaking technology, because no principle or treaty is violated while doing so.
Wanting something to be so, does not make it so.
And yet you keep trying to will a defunct treaty into significance.
In addition, what else is the Federation and Starfleet based on than unyielding principle?
Principle that, yet again, will not be compromised.
FACT: Anek Okeeg is the President of the Federation
FACT: The President of the Federation has rather sweeping authority, and is the Commander in Chief of Starfleet
FACT: Anek Okeeg has made the decision to uphold the Treaty of Algeron, despite the Romulan political situation.
FACT: The President is subject to oversight and checks by the Federation Council, who in turn are advised by Starfleet.
FACT: The President has made a decision to uphold a treaty that no longer exists with a nation they are in a de facto state of war with.
FACT: The President has made a criminally incompetent decision and is in fact violating the principles of the Federation by allowing it's enemies a tactical advantage and it's citizens to be at risk for no reason.
FACT: The President is subject to oversight and checks by the Federation Council, who in turn are advised by Starfleet.
And who AGREE that terror weapons are not a good idea
FACT: The President has made a decision to uphold a treaty that no longer exists with a nation they are in a de facto state of war with.
During both world wars treaties were maintained (Geneva convention)
Even the most vicious enemies maintain diplomatic contact during war
FACT: The President has made a criminally incompetent decision and is in fact violating the principles of the Federation by allowing it's enemies a tactical advantage and it's citizens to be at risk for no reason.
so metagenic and subspace weapons should be deployed??
Translation EVERYTHING is Replicated
A replication is identical to the original scanned object
with no change even at the atomic level
you scan a cracked vase you replicate cracked vases
simple enough for you??
and you are the one yelling really loudly
Coming from the guy throwing fully capitalized words at people, that's adorable.
Secondly, if you honestly think everything in Trek is replicated, you're sadly mistaken
Thirdly, you've still yet to provide any factual basis for you claims. Cite your sources.
Maquis are not FEDERATION they are scavengers/terrorists in space
they use jury rig ships
Let's review:
Federation colonists settle on the Cardassian border. The Federation and Cardassian Union sign a peace treaty that moves the border. Federation colonists take up arms and form the Maquis to protect their world.
How exactly does your brain read anywhere in there that the Maquis aren't Federation citizens?
Or did you just miss the multiple episodes where the Federation intercedes to protect the Maquis on the basis that they're Federation citizens?
They are using Cardassian cargo ships , bajoran space craft and bits of old shuttles
and they are all composite or scratch built
Every single ship ever shown on-screen being flown by the Maquis has been attributed in one form or another. The Condor, the Peregrine, the Raiders, all are retrofitted Federation designs.
And do you seriously think a group fighting what is effectively a race war against the Cardassians would ever fly a Cardassian ship?
Ignored? I just gave you a specific reason as to why a complicated and rather prohibitive technology from a future that no longer exists would be hard to implement.
So the Defiant in 2372 is from an alternate future that doesn't exist?
Do you notice the difference? No? That's your problem.
Whatever they can includes using cloaking technology, because no principle or treaty is violated while doing so.
Can = has the capacity (IE: is functionally able) to do so
Want = desires to do so
Federation scientists are more than capable of developing all manner of crazily destructive, and in some cases apocalyptic, techs. The fact that they don't is a matter of restraint, ethics, and principle.
FACT: The President is subject to oversight and checks by the Federation Council, who in turn are advised by Starfleet.
FACT: The President has made a decision to uphold a treaty that no longer exists with a nation they are in a de facto state of war with.
FACT: The President has made a criminally incompetent decision and is in fact violating the principles of the Federation by allowing it's enemies a tactical advantage and it's citizens to be at risk for no reason.
Even assuming that I agree with all of that (which I don't), none of it counters Okeeg's authority to do what he did.
So the Defiant in 2372 is from an alternate future that doesn't exist?
Oh you're talking about the Defiant's hull armour.
So you weren't even talking about the Voyager external systems.
You are asking why the President didn't order every Federation vessel's HULL REPLACED in a time of war when their shipyards are already stretched to capacity and they're welding hulls together from wrecks and mothballed junkers.
Do I... even.. gah!
Can = has the capacity (IE: is functionally able) to do so
Want = desires to do so
Federation scientists are more than capable of developing all manner of crazily destructive, and in some cases apocalyptic, techs. The fact that they don't is a matter of restraint, ethics, and principle.
Hence, they cannot.
They CAN implement cloaks, because it violates no principle and has no ethical problems.
I'm willing nothing into existence. STO's lore does that all by itself. Lore which you can't seem to accept because it contradicts your position.
All STO lore does is present us with a criminally incompetent President, it cannot will the treaty into existence anymore than you can.
Now you're catching on.
I only wish you could.
The principle will not be compromised, because using cloaking technology will not compromise it.
Even assuming that I agree with all of that (which I don't), none of it counters Okeeg's authority to do what he did.
The President has displayed criminal incompetence, the Federation council has every right to impeach it and install a leader who isn't a fool living in the past of 50 years ago.
How in the damn hell is a cloaking device a terror weapon or a weapon of mass destruction.
"Oh it can be used as such!!"
Soldier with Rifle = military asset
concealed sniper with rifle = assassin/terrorist
Ship = military asset
Cloaked ship = up to no good
Rom is a Wesley crusher or a mary sue
and sabotage is easy
any monkey can do it
Rom is not O'brien he is a Ferengi they are used to mix and match tech
lets see you do it then
So now Klingon cloaks are magically compatible with Federation systems if a bald guy with big ears does the work?
Nope
Federation tech + Ferengi tech+ Klingon tech lasts a few minutes at least
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Translation EVERYTHING is Replicated
A replication is identical to the original scanned object
with no change even at the atomic level
you scan a cracked vase you replicate cracked vases
simple enough for you??
and you are the one yelling really loudly
Coming from the guy throwing fully capitalized words at people, that's adorable.
only people under 15 think capitals are shouting
Secondly, if you honestly think everything in Trek is replicated, you're sadly mistaken
when did you last see someone in trek making a warp core by hand??
Thirdly, you've still yet to provide any factual basis for you claims. Cite your sources.
the universe???
we older folks do not depend on wikithikia
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Maquis are not FEDERATION they are scavengers/terrorists in space
they use jury rig ships
Let's review:
Federation colonists settle on the Cardassian border. The Federation and Cardassian Union sign a peace treaty that moves the border. Federation colonists take up arms and form the Maquis to protect their world.
correct Terrorists
they are Cardassian citizens
if they want to be federation citizens they need to move to the federation
How exactly does your brain read anywhere in there that the Maquis aren't Federation citizens?
Treaty made them Cardassian
Or did you just miss the multiple episodes where the Federation intercedes to protect the Maquis on the basis that they're Federation citizens?
did you miss them hunting them down???
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
They are using Cardassian cargo ships , bajoran space craft and bits of old shuttles
and they are all composite or scratch built
Every single ship ever shown on-screen being flown by the Maquis has been attributed in one form or another. The Condor, the Peregrine, the Raiders, all are retrofitted Federation designs.
And none of them was actually fed AND cloaked
and 90% are not federation
And do you seriously think a group fighting what is effectively a race war against the Cardassians would ever fly a Cardassian ship?
The Bajorans did
and its not a race war many marquis ARE Cardassian
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
Except they don't do they
And remember if we break the treaty we lose the war (bad guys in trek always lose)
So you don't fight the Klingons, Romulans, Hirogen, True Way, Terran Empire, Borg Collective, Tholian Assembly, Breen Confederacy and the Undine?
I fight them without breaking the treaty
Thus I am not the bad guy
Get it??
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax
ANY use of a cloak in the alpha quad is illegal even RIKER won't do it
i don't need to back up the fact that there is One defiant and it can not cloak in the alpha or beta quads without the captain going to the BRIG
Except of course for all the occasions where the Defiant cloaks in the Alpha quadrant and Sisko magically stays in command?
He did not get Caught
of course he died and went into oblivion so we can't brig him now
And yet, those ideals are what is holding all the different races with different backgrounds of the Federation together for more than 2 centuries.
Those ideals that they uphold are the reason that blue "spot" on the map is bigger than the red one of the Klingon Empire that is based on conquest for a far longer that the Federation has existed. It's even bigger then the green one, for the record.
Because people, no matter what race, identify themselves with those values. Because for many races out there the Federation = peace, justice and equality amongst many other. Take those values away and you just have a bunch of species that sound like a bad band.
You're missing the point. The Federation never starts a war. The Federation does not conquer teritory and species. They simply want to exist in harmony with everyone. They don't go and conquer someone they don't like as the Klingons or kill someone they don't agree with as the Romulans.
It's in their philosophy. And their philosophy of war is no different than that. They don't use cloaks, because they have nothing to hide. They stalk noone, they don't plan to suprise blow-up any ship. The Federation ships are defensively oriented. Wasn't it Picard that said that Starfleet is not a military, but an exploration force?
Think about it. Cloaks give the advantage to the attacker, something the Federation would never do. They'd never start a fight first. That's why they can have their shields up at anytime, just in case someone does not like them.
You are worried about the lives of the Stafleet officers? One more proof why they don't need the cloak. Personally, I'd feel much safer serving on the Odyssey class, with it's powerfull shielding and all the defense bonuses from the Oddy. set, M.A.C.O. set and such, than serving on a BoP that can cloak, but has zero shields when it decloaks and while cloaked, so it can be blown to Sto'vo'kor with a single torpedo.
I believe Starfleet thinks so too, the cloak may give advantage in reconnaissance missions, but if you calculate the risk for the crews while under cloak, I doubt they'd prefer using that type of technology. They are not Klingons that burn to die in glorious battle, these people care about preserving lives first and foremost.
Well said and smack on the money. The UFP/Star Fleet are the noble heroes and they must abide by that ideology and follow the chain of command.
Oh you're talking about the Defiant's hull armour.
So you weren't even talking about the Voyager external systems.
You are asking why the President didn't order every Federation vessel's HULL REPLACED in a time of war when their shipyards are already stretched to capacity and they're welding hulls together from wrecks and mothballed junkers.
Do I... even.. gah!
How quaint, you don't realize that you don't replace a ship's hull when retrofitting armor. It's a layer applied to the exterior hull, designed to absorb and disintegrate under incoming fire.
Not unlike certain ceramic-based body armors in use today.
All STO lore does is present us with a criminally incompetent President, it cannot will the treaty into existence anymore than you can.
I only wish you could.
The principle will not be compromised, because using cloaking technology will not compromise it.
The President has displayed criminal incompetence, the Federation council has every right to impeach it and install a leader who isn't a fool living in the past of 50 years ago.
Bottom line: you want cloaks on every Federation ship, so you ignore lore and demand a coup to get want you want.
True heroes do not blindly follow the orders of their superiors even if they are morally bankrupt and criminal.
"The claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation." -Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
I know more than few snipers who would take offense at being called assasins and terrorists.
If a cloaked ship is up to no good, what is the camoflagued soldier? The hunter in a deer stand? The stealth fighter, bombers and warships of the military?
Are all these people terrorists and assassins?
How quaint, you don't realize that you don't replace a ship's hull when retrofitting armor. It's a layer applied to the exterior hull, designed to absorb and disintegrate under incoming fire.
Which involves replacing large parts of the hull. You are ASSUMING that it is just layered on top even though the structure of Federation starships wouldn't allow this.
Not unlike certain ceramic-based body armors in use today.
Because body armour is directly analogous to starship armour.
Only if one ignores standing treaty and legal obligations, which you clearly want to.
The treaty is defunct. There are no legal obligations. I have fully explained why.
Bottom line: you want cloaks on every Federation ship, so you ignore lore and demand a coup to get want you want.
Hello Admiral Layton.
You're the one ignoring lore. That they have a character in universe ignore the situation and behave like an incompetent changes nothing.
You have yet to even argue as to why the treaty exists other than because an obvious incompetent says it will ignore reality and uphold a non-existent treaty anyway.
True heroes do not blindly follow the orders of their superiors even if they are morally bankrupt and criminal.
"The claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation." -Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
True soldiers also follow the chain of command and do not act of thier own will in defiance of it unless said order is morally bankrupt.
What part of the UFP presidents decision was morally bankrupt or criminal? None at all.
Nope
Federation tech + Ferengi tech+ Klingon tech lasts a few minutes at least
So you went from "incompatible" to "compatible when I want it to be" to "well it's really both incompatible and compatible at the same time when I want it to be". At least you're consolidating all your insane answers.
Wrong. It evicted those Federation colonists who lived on worlds that were given to Cardassia. The Maquis chose to stay and fight for those worlds, and to protect colonies in the DMZ from Cardassian raids.
They CAN implement cloaks, because it violates no principle and has no ethical problems.
A ship under cloak has no shields. A ship with no shields can be blown apart by any random torpedo. Putting the lives of their crews in such jeopardy is not Starfleet's way of conduct.
Those people are not Klingon. Their families will not be proud that their children/spouses/parents died a glorious death and vent to Heaven. They will burn down Starfleet HQ for sending their loved ones in a ship that cruises without shields.
The only thing that Starfleet might be compelled to use cloak for are reconnaissance/spying missions. In this game the Defiant class can cloak and it's a perfect little ship with small crew that can be consisted of specialists that agree with the risk while taking that kind of a mission. I don't see what your problem is?
They're not going to expose the 2500 men and women aboard an Odyssey to that kind of risk and certainly not expose the children and families aboard Galaxy class ships to that kind of risk.
The President has displayed criminal incompetence, the Federation council has every right to impeach it and install a leader who isn't a fool living in the past of 50 years ago.
Criminal incompetence?! LOL
I guess you'll have to learn to live with certain things like:
Aenik Okeg is the President of the United Federation of Planets, not you.
Aenik Okeg was ellected for President for 3 times in a row, not you.
The Federation Council fully backs up Okeg's policies, and unfortunately for you - you're not a member of it.
And finally, you don't own the rights to the IP, CBS does. And CBS are not fond of Federation ships using cloaks.
Which involves replacing large parts of the hull. You are ASSUMING that it is just layered on top even though the structure of Federation starships wouldn't allow this.
Incorrect. The DS9:TM is very clear as to what Ablative Armor is.
The treaty is defunct. There are no legal obligations. I have fully explained why.
Incorrect. You've explained why you want there to be no legal obligations. Those wants don't take on a life of their own, go into the lore and change things.
You have yet to even argue as to why the treaty exists other than because an obvious incompetent says it will ignore reality and uphold a non-existent treaty anyway.
I'm not the one writing STO's lore. I personally find the notion of upholding a treaty with a defunct government puzzling and strange. But it doesn't mean I reject the entire concept because I don't like it.
Bottom line: unless and until the STO story provides for the dismantling of the Treaty and Okeeg's executive order, that's the environment that the game operates under.
Hence, Starfleet should pressure the Federation Council, who should in turn either force the President to stand down on this, or impeach it.
Refusing to implement an easily manufacturable, installable and usable technology that can save lives for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHATSOEVER is criminal.
Good luck trying to argue that every government that ever fought a war in history is somehow criminally responsible for the deaths of soldiers in their military.
Well, that escalated quickly. How did this turn into a giant pissing contest?
I especially liked the bit about the Maquis having lots of Cardassians in it. It made me chuckle. This thread has made my brain hurt, I'm going somewhere else!
Comments
The Romulan FE series ends with the Federation invading Romulan territory and Empress Sela openly attacking us.
It's a bit much to assume peace would still be maintained after that and all the other invasions, neutral zone violations and shooting matches between the Federation and the RSE.
Way to change the subject. You were whining about ablative armor, not cloaks, remember?
I'm the one lying by directly quoting you when you don't make the very distinction you're claiming you made? That makes sense.
And we're back to "I dont like the way something was implemented in the lore, therefore it can't exist".
I am pretty sure the Sao Paulo, which was then renamed to replace the Defiant, never had a cloak. At least I cannot remember it being used if it did.
As for the game breaking cloak bug, it is not working as intended, they broke it but wont put any effort into fixing it.
Most new missions that use the fly text when one of your officers report something, does not break cloak.
However, most if not all old missions still use the old fly text or the popup window which always breaks the cloak.
All the devs have to do is go through all missions and change the popups to the new fly text type, or change the way cloak interacts with popups.
They could do it, if they really wanted to, and for me, the new Romulan faction that will primarily use cloak like the KDF do, is a perfect time to fix that old game breaking bug once and for all....
What? I said implementing ablative armour would be prohibitive, I explained why implementing cloaks would not.
Feel free to quote where I said that saving lives gave Starfleet carte blanche to implement any technology under any circumstance.
Nope, we're back to the fact that you're arguing over principles that won't be compromised, and a treaty that is provably defunct in the lore.
The Sao Paolo was never shown to cloak. It participated in one battle on-screen, the battle of Cardassia which ended the Dominion Wars.
And conveniently ignored your own argument that Jaris-Inyo should have been impeached for not putting ablative armor on every ship in the fleet since that would risk the lives of Starfleet personnel.
Why certainly...
Which if you'll notice is exactly the same quote I used before. And one that pretty clearly spells out an "ends justify the means" mentality.
Wanting something to be so, does not make it so. In addition, what else is the Federation and Starfleet based on than unyielding principle?
FACT: Anek Okeeg is the President of the Federation
FACT: The President of the Federation has rather sweeping authority, and is the Commander in Chief of Starfleet
FACT: Anek Okeeg has made the decision to uphold the Treaty of Algeron, despite the Romulan political situation.
FACT: Anek Okeeg signed an executive order outlawing cloaking research by the Fedeeration.
there is no class there is exactly ONE ship
with one romulan cloak
and as soon as a fed cloaks he is not a fed
I didn't
Rom is a Wesley crusher or a mary sue
and sabotage is easy
any monkey can do it
Rom is not O'brien he is a Ferengi they are used to mix and match tech
lets see you do it then
Translation EVERYTHING is Replicated
A replication is identical to the original scanned object
with no change even at the atomic level
you scan a cracked vase you replicate cracked vases
simple enough for you??
and you are the one yelling really loudly
Maquis are not FEDERATION they are scavengers/terrorists in space
they use jury rig ships
They are using Cardassian cargo ships , bajoran space craft and bits of old shuttles
and they are all composite or scratch built
That makes sense.
Except they don't do they
And remember if we break the treaty we lose the war (bad guys in trek always lose)
ANY use of a cloak in the alpha quad is illegal even RIKER won't do it
i don't need to back up the fact that there is One defiant and it can not cloak in the alpha or beta quads without the captain going to the BRIG
Ignored? I just gave you a specific reason as to why a complicated and rather prohibitive technology from a future that no longer exists would be hard to implement.
Cost vs. benefit. Learn the concept.
Whatever they can.
Not whatever they want.
Do you notice the difference? No? That's your problem.
Whatever they can includes using cloaking technology, because no principle or treaty is violated while doing so.
And yet you keep trying to will a defunct treaty into significance.
Principle that, yet again, will not be compromised.
FACT: The President is subject to oversight and checks by the Federation Council, who in turn are advised by Starfleet.
FACT: The President has made a decision to uphold a treaty that no longer exists with a nation they are in a de facto state of war with.
FACT: The President has made a criminally incompetent decision and is in fact violating the principles of the Federation by allowing it's enemies a tactical advantage and it's citizens to be at risk for no reason.
And who AGREE that terror weapons are not a good idea
During both world wars treaties were maintained (Geneva convention)
Even the most vicious enemies maintain diplomatic contact during war
so metagenic and subspace weapons should be deployed??
So now Klingon cloaks are magically compatible with Federation systems if a bald guy with big ears does the work?
Coming from the guy throwing fully capitalized words at people, that's adorable.
Secondly, if you honestly think everything in Trek is replicated, you're sadly mistaken
Thirdly, you've still yet to provide any factual basis for you claims. Cite your sources.
Let's review:
Federation colonists settle on the Cardassian border. The Federation and Cardassian Union sign a peace treaty that moves the border. Federation colonists take up arms and form the Maquis to protect their world.
How exactly does your brain read anywhere in there that the Maquis aren't Federation citizens?
Or did you just miss the multiple episodes where the Federation intercedes to protect the Maquis on the basis that they're Federation citizens?
Every single ship ever shown on-screen being flown by the Maquis has been attributed in one form or another. The Condor, the Peregrine, the Raiders, all are retrofitted Federation designs.
And do you seriously think a group fighting what is effectively a race war against the Cardassians would ever fly a Cardassian ship?
So you don't fight the Klingons, Romulans, Hirogen, True Way, Terran Empire, Borg Collective, Tholian Assembly, Breen Confederacy and the Undine?
Except of course for all the occasions where the Defiant cloaks in the Alpha quadrant and Sisko magically stays in command?
"Oh it can be used as such!!"
Yeah, so can a matter/antimatter reactor. So let's immediately ban them from all Federation ships for violating Federation principles.
So the Defiant in 2372 is from an alternate future that doesn't exist?
Can = has the capacity (IE: is functionally able) to do so
Want = desires to do so
Federation scientists are more than capable of developing all manner of crazily destructive, and in some cases apocalyptic, techs. The fact that they don't is a matter of restraint, ethics, and principle.
I'm willing nothing into existence. STO's lore does that all by itself. Lore which you can't seem to accept because it contradicts your position.
Now you're catching on.
Even assuming that I agree with all of that (which I don't), none of it counters Okeeg's authority to do what he did.
Oh you're talking about the Defiant's hull armour.
So you weren't even talking about the Voyager external systems.
You are asking why the President didn't order every Federation vessel's HULL REPLACED in a time of war when their shipyards are already stretched to capacity and they're welding hulls together from wrecks and mothballed junkers.
Do I... even.. gah!
Hence, they cannot.
They CAN implement cloaks, because it violates no principle and has no ethical problems.
All STO lore does is present us with a criminally incompetent President, it cannot will the treaty into existence anymore than you can.
I only wish you could.
The principle will not be compromised, because using cloaking technology will not compromise it.
The President has displayed criminal incompetence, the Federation council has every right to impeach it and install a leader who isn't a fool living in the past of 50 years ago.
Soldier with Rifle = military asset
concealed sniper with rifle = assassin/terrorist
Ship = military asset
Cloaked ship = up to no good
Nope
Federation tech + Ferengi tech+ Klingon tech lasts a few minutes at least
only people under 15 think capitals are shouting
when did you last see someone in trek making a warp core by hand??
the universe???
we older folks do not depend on wikithikia
correct Terrorists
they are Cardassian citizens
if they want to be federation citizens they need to move to the federation
Treaty made them Cardassian
did you miss them hunting them down???
And none of them was actually fed AND cloaked
and 90% are not federation
The Bajorans did
and its not a race war many marquis ARE Cardassian
I fight them without breaking the treaty
Thus I am not the bad guy
Get it??
He did not get Caught
of course he died and went into oblivion so we can't brig him now
I would very much like you to go to a sniper in any modern day army or police SWAT unit and call them a terrorist. To their face.
A concealed rifle makes you an assassin
there is no question of that
its like back shooting you don't do it
Yeah I'm not bothering with you.
but not the otherside
kill civis you ARE the bad guy and you are going to pay for it
Feds are not the Borg they do not assimilate tech for warfare (except janeway and she is a genocidal loony)
Well said and smack on the money. The UFP/Star Fleet are the noble heroes and they must abide by that ideology and follow the chain of command.
R.I.P
How quaint, you don't realize that you don't replace a ship's hull when retrofitting armor. It's a layer applied to the exterior hull, designed to absorb and disintegrate under incoming fire.
Not unlike certain ceramic-based body armors in use today.
Only if one ignores standing treaty and legal obligations, which you clearly want to.
Bottom line: you want cloaks on every Federation ship, so you ignore lore and demand a coup to get want you want.
Hello Admiral Layton.
"The claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analyzing the situation." -Captain Jean-Luc Picard.
If a cloaked ship is up to no good, what is the camoflagued soldier? The hunter in a deer stand? The stealth fighter, bombers and warships of the military?
Are all these people terrorists and assassins?
R.I.P
Which involves replacing large parts of the hull. You are ASSUMING that it is just layered on top even though the structure of Federation starships wouldn't allow this.
Because body armour is directly analogous to starship armour.
The treaty is defunct. There are no legal obligations. I have fully explained why.
You're the one ignoring lore. That they have a character in universe ignore the situation and behave like an incompetent changes nothing.
You have yet to even argue as to why the treaty exists other than because an obvious incompetent says it will ignore reality and uphold a non-existent treaty anyway.
True soldiers also follow the chain of command and do not act of thier own will in defiance of it unless said order is morally bankrupt.
What part of the UFP presidents decision was morally bankrupt or criminal? None at all.
R.I.P
So you went from "incompatible" to "compatible when I want it to be" to "well it's really both incompatible and compatible at the same time when I want it to be". At least you're consolidating all your insane answers.
See Geordi and Dr. Brahms discussing the construction and design of the Galaxy class starship.
Translation: I have absolutely nothing to back my arguments up with.
Wrong. It evicted those Federation colonists who lived on worlds that were given to Cardassia. The Maquis chose to stay and fight for those worlds, and to protect colonies in the DMZ from Cardassian raids.
I think your credibility just moved into negative territory.
So your whole argument about "it never happened" doesn't apply when someone doesn't see it?
A ship under cloak has no shields. A ship with no shields can be blown apart by any random torpedo. Putting the lives of their crews in such jeopardy is not Starfleet's way of conduct.
Those people are not Klingon. Their families will not be proud that their children/spouses/parents died a glorious death and vent to Heaven. They will burn down Starfleet HQ for sending their loved ones in a ship that cruises without shields.
The only thing that Starfleet might be compelled to use cloak for are reconnaissance/spying missions. In this game the Defiant class can cloak and it's a perfect little ship with small crew that can be consisted of specialists that agree with the risk while taking that kind of a mission. I don't see what your problem is?
They're not going to expose the 2500 men and women aboard an Odyssey to that kind of risk and certainly not expose the children and families aboard Galaxy class ships to that kind of risk.
You keep trying now. I read somewhere that if you keep wishing for something hard enough, it will come true! :rolleyes:
Criminal incompetence?! LOL
I guess you'll have to learn to live with certain things like:
Aenik Okeg is the President of the United Federation of Planets, not you.
Aenik Okeg was ellected for President for 3 times in a row, not you.
The Federation Council fully backs up Okeg's policies, and unfortunately for you - you're not a member of it.
And finally, you don't own the rights to the IP, CBS does. And CBS are not fond of Federation ships using cloaks.
Hence, Starfleet should pressure the Federation Council, who should in turn either force the President to stand down on this, or impeach it.
Refusing to implement an easily manufacturable, installable and usable technology that can save lives for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHATSOEVER is criminal.
Incorrect. The DS9:TM is very clear as to what Ablative Armor is.
When it functions under the exact same concepts, it absolutely is.
Incorrect. You've explained why you want there to be no legal obligations. Those wants don't take on a life of their own, go into the lore and change things.
I'm not the one writing STO's lore. I personally find the notion of upholding a treaty with a defunct government puzzling and strange. But it doesn't mean I reject the entire concept because I don't like it.
Bottom line: unless and until the STO story provides for the dismantling of the Treaty and Okeeg's executive order, that's the environment that the game operates under.
Good luck trying to argue that every government that ever fought a war in history is somehow criminally responsible for the deaths of soldiers in their military.
I especially liked the bit about the Maquis having lots of Cardassians in it. It made me chuckle. This thread has made my brain hurt, I'm going somewhere else!
Kirk's Protege.
puh-leeze continue on that high level of intellectual back and forth
just saying