Just thought I'd share my experiences. I have an engineer, science and tactical captain fed side and have used cruisers and escorts for engineer, science ships and escorts for the science and escorts for the tactical. I mainly do PvE but have dabbled in a slight bit of PvP on my sci and tactical.
For PvP I've enjoyed the power a tactical has in terms of doing attack runs but found out pretty quickly I need to hit and run and not get caught near (5km) more than 2 enemy ships or I will most likely die if they're good. As a sci in a sci ship, oh wow that was fun but I hear insulators have severely crippled drains and I once faced a bug with 9 in insulators, dampners and sensors and could do nothing to him even with 180 in flow caps or switching to 150+ in grav gens.
As for PvP. I mostly do STF for the dilithium and I've found that my tactical in an escort does them the quickest as it kills the fastest, it can survive about 30s at 0km (for max damage) to a gate but I have to run after that or I will die even with the shield and hull heals and resists and defence.
My engineer completes faster and can also carry a team in an escort (HEC as I like it to be more class focused) however since the assimilated set and a few other things help to mitigate weapon power drain I have started flying a DKora which can tank most things and still output 5.7k dps according to ACT and should go to 6k when I'm finished getting the gear.
My science performs better in the mobius or advanced escort packing a GW1. It's useful in a vesta or other sci ships when it can use GW3 and other power drains but it can't compete to using the escorts.
Why is this? It's because the entire mission revolves around destroying X number of enemies in Y time for the optional, though I consider failing the optional as failing the mission. If I had 5 exact duplicates of my cruisers or sci ships then the team would do it with optional though the science would be the slowest.
Fleet missions: Now there's a bit more variety here as you can fail for different reasons like letting things get destroyed and with so many enemies spawning sometimes having crowd control helps. My tactical and the escorts perform generally better here as they can melt through most enemies quicker than they can get to the objective to destroy it. However the sci and science ships will shine a bit better here as CC, scramble sensors and other skills will keep the enemy occupied. My cruiser performs less well here because even with 6 in threat control and 2 mk XII +threat consoles things ignore it but can keep the objective alive so it has its own little niche too.
Starbase 24 and gorn minefield: Escorts win hands down as they can rip apart the higher value objectives quicker. Yes CC is nice to have and tanking 100 ships is great but it won't earn you as many points as killing 10 negh'vars or other ships.
Now the way I see it in PvE, which is what most people play, there's no content that requires anything more than kill these dudes fast or that cannot be won by kill these dudes faster. What needs to happen is that we need more content that requires something other than killing things fast or faster. Hive onslaught for STFs was a step in the right direction, not ferpect but a step. Star base blockade is a great example of a balanced mission however people are too stupid to even complete it well. Yes I do mean that. I see many pugs not use tactical team on freighters, all club together on one, not heal it, some even go after enemies nowhere near the freighter.
Anyway to sum up,
Content needs to be more balanced before classes get balanced.
Tacticals complete all content faster.
Escorts with a science or engineer slant complete all content faster.
This is all when you max out the ship/captain for said content.
Exceptions star base blockade and maybe Hive onslaught.
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there TRIBBLE handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
There's no mention of PvP in the OP's post.
The thread is not in the PvP section of the forums.
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there TRIBBLE handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
Agreed but it also works the other way, a PvP set up is still useful PvE but can be made to be better for PvE
Also I think a lot of the escort pilots for PvP don't invest in skill resists too.
very well said 95% of players crying have never done any real pvp, they play pve and think have a killer set up then do some pvp and get there TRIBBLE handed too them, a pvp set up is far different to a pve set up
You know, the arrogance of some players are astounding. Pretty much everyone and their mum knows that PvP set ups are different from PvE. That is basically the same in EVERY mmo where there is PvE and PvP content, with the exception of EvE. For example, in WoW you need resilience gear to do PvP effectively.
The problem is not with people being "under" equipped, the problem is the damage increase of tactical powers are way way way too high when taking the other two classes into consideration.
The reason I say "nerf tacs" is that Cryptic are NOT CAPABLE of creating game balance. They have shown this within 3 years of play. So this is an easier option which does not serve the long time problem but will essentially take minimum Cryptic effort or intelligence. So they should love that idea.
no what I do think is you need to learn how to play your class
Again with that old nugget. It is the worst thing you could have contributed to this thread. Then again I expected nothing else. Because you see a few successful science and engi players (and respect to them of course), you assume the entire class is fine. This is tunnel vision. The vast majority of science and engineers (who will not be on these forums to give their testament by the way) will not hold up anywhere near as well.
Good point. Still, I don't think the cruisers could win, even if the escorts made a mistake.
Five cruisers (cross healing all the while) chain tractor beam, EWP and target engines targetting one escort at at a time. Cruisers - 15, Escorts - 0 ... just sayin.
There is only ONE thing is STO that is truly OP .... TEAMWORK!
The problem isn't tactical players, the problem is Cryptic and PWE. They have been butchering the game since F2P with their magical DOFF specialists and continued lockbox fiestas. Do you think it is ever going to stop?
How many promises have they really kept when it comes down to the old content? A few bug fixes that their new content created? Speaking of their "new" content, look they ditched that just as fast as the subscription model.
They need to ditch this "ima make as many consoles and doff specialists as possible to make balance impossible" model and go back to a more appearance based model. People WILL pay to have a pretty skin for their ship.
But...
Now we have a new faction coming up, that will also be neglected. It is nothing more than gimmicks now, because that is how we attract the brainwashed public, gimmicks. Content? What name so? Long term goals? Never. Short term $$$$$ gains? Always.
Five cruisers (cross healing all the while) chain tractor beam, EWP and target engines targetting one escort at at a time. Cruisers - 15, Escorts - 0 ... just sayin.
There is only ONE thing is STO that is truly OP .... TEAMWORK!
I wonder what would happen if you dropped a Grav Well on the cruisers...
My money's on the escorts. Although mass healing cruisers is a challenge, it's nothing that two or more Subnucs can't take care of, and one mistake by the cruiser team would be catastrophic. Escorts are better able to resist what cruisers can throw at them, and they can bug out (haha) to save their own arses, if all else fails.
The problem isn't tactical players, the problem is Cryptic and PWE. They have been butchering the game since F2P with their magical DOFF specialists and continued lockbox fiestas. Do you think it is ever going to stop?
How many promises have they really kept when it comes down to the old content? A few bug fixes that their new content created? Speaking of their "new" content, look they ditched that just as fast as the subscription model.
They need to ditch this "ima make as many consoles and doff specialists as possible to make balance impossible" model and go back to a more appearance based model. People WILL pay to have a pretty skin for their ship.
But...
Now we have a new faction coming up, that will also be neglected. It is nothing more than gimmicks now, because that is how we attract the brainwashed public, gimmicks. Content? What name so? Long term goals? Never. Short term $$$$$ gains? Always.
It was always there somewhat, but manageable, but it got severe after F2P. At first F2P started out not so bad, I was actually hopeful, then it got gradually worse. STO is now nothing more than a propagandist's dream come true.
It was always there somewhat, but manageable, but it got severe after F2P. At first F2P started out not so bad, I was actually hopeful, then it got gradually worse. STO is now nothing more than a propagandist's dream come true.
This is sadly true. Before PWE when it was just cryptic they stuck true to the "C-store is for cosmetic items only."
Then PWE took over and we fell deep into pay 2 win territory. After that F2P was inevitable as subscribers are generally unwilling to pay to be the underdogs.
Before F2P things were pretty easy going, although sometimes it felt like places were ghost towns. I was happy to see so many new people during F2P stuff.
It went well for awhile, sure we had a lockbox, that didn't bother me that much. The dilithium exchange was there but it wasn't required.
Then the StarBase release came out, it turned into a huge grindfest for awhile but there were ways to keep up with it without having 100+ people grinding for it. Then the special feature projects which weren't required but asked for insane sums of dilithium. This was a clear attempt to make Dilithium Exchange used more. It just meant you did a few more elite STFs on multiple characters.
It was manageable and not life sucking.
This then later provoked the fleet mark nerf, and then the great Dilithium Nerf of 2012. Making the grindfest ten times longer than before. Killing off small fleets, and increasing Cryptic's cashflow.
But to quote them "this isn't to nerf players ability to gain dilithium, it is to help make dilithium more readily available for all." or something like that. At least that is how I remember it.
At that point all flags were up, there is no end to the greed, the propaganda, and punishment of players who speak out against it. I mean look at their recent gimmick, a countdown to content that will be later released. A ruse, a way to gather hype. Propaganda at its best. What more can you say? What more can you expect?
If anything, these past months... Cryptic has gotten worse, not better.
It was always there somewhat, but manageable, but it got severe after F2P. At first F2P started out not so bad, I was actually hopeful, then it got gradually worse. STO is now nothing more than a propagandist's dream come true.
People still play this game?
Amazing, because the attitudes of Cryptic and some of its developers essentially amount to belittling insults and some rather unpleasant insinuations towards some of its playerbase.
- Beams are working as designed.
- Dual Heavy Cannons won't be nerfed.
- Something something trinity.
I've come to the conclusion that either they're delusional, desperately understaffed (I've heard that only one guy is in charge of adjusting abilities and thus balance), or that they simply don't care.
Either way, I've made something of an ultimatum for myself. If Cryptic turns things around by the time May comes around, I'll celebrate by buying a $25 game card and will resume periodically buying game cards. However, if nothing worthwhile happens, I'll just leave because it's only going to get more poisonous from there.
You can buy anything from the C-Store by converting dilithium to Zen without ever spending a cent. That's not pay to win.~By grinding your life away~added by mewi
Fixed ;o! Sorry but you have to be more reasonable about it.
Five cruisers (cross healing all the while) chain tractor beam, EWP and target engines targetting one escort at at a time. Cruisers - 15, Escorts - 0 ... just sayin.
There is only ONE thing is STO that is truly OP .... TEAMWORK!
So uh...the Escorts won't be crosshealing?
The reason nobody would die and it would be a stalemate is because there's nobody there to drop the SNB.
You can buy anything from the C-Store by converting dilithium to Zen without ever spending a cent. That's not pay to win.
If somewhere in the direct transaction chain (IE: a subscription doesn't count) real money must be spent to attain a statistical, ability-based or other advantage, it's pay to win.
It would not surprise me if his definition of learning to play is to pop APA and then sit on the spacebar. If people who have spent months attempting to get viable builds have found that these ships are just too uncompetitive, I would believe them over some one-liner wally.
I've played tac and eng and getting into science. You have to understand the play style. For cruisers. since their turn rate isn't the best I use a combo beam array and turrets. you just need 2 turrets but only if you have room. my average build for the high level cruisers is 2 turrets, beam arrays, and dual beams. depending on cruiser I could do RCS then I focus on a balance to defends against all types of weapons types and shield enhancers. weapons of choice are either tets or antiproton. and officers are geared for healing and attack. and I barely touch TT.
You also have to remember that a Zen ship or even a fleet ship doesn't have to cost anyone any real world cash. Lockbox ships don't either but you have to either be extremely lucky or buy from the exchange where someone most likely paid real cash for it.
no what I do think is you need to learn how to play your class iv seem lots of sci/engi toons do serious damage as well as tank everything thrown at them, why not use feed back pulse 3 and return all that dps back to the tac/escort use polaron wepons to drain there energy with energy syphon and that tac/escort cant turn or do any dps due to having no energy
Funny you say that. I was just in a PvP with a Vesta. I had 125 Aux and I have 9 in particle generators and I use one purple Mk XII particle generator console. I was attacked by an Andorian escort piloted by a tac captain AWAY from the main battle, as in just him, just me. As he closed in to attack attack I hit Feedback pulse III, Tactical Team I, EPtS II and Pol Hull I.
In less than 5 seconds he had ripped through my shields, destroyed my hull and had 93% of his hull left. It's an Andorian escort, a supposed glass cannon. Now tell me that escorts are not OP. If you do, then you're in serious need of help.
Comments
For PvP I've enjoyed the power a tactical has in terms of doing attack runs but found out pretty quickly I need to hit and run and not get caught near (5km) more than 2 enemy ships or I will most likely die if they're good. As a sci in a sci ship, oh wow that was fun but I hear insulators have severely crippled drains and I once faced a bug with 9 in insulators, dampners and sensors and could do nothing to him even with 180 in flow caps or switching to 150+ in grav gens.
As for PvP. I mostly do STF for the dilithium and I've found that my tactical in an escort does them the quickest as it kills the fastest, it can survive about 30s at 0km (for max damage) to a gate but I have to run after that or I will die even with the shield and hull heals and resists and defence.
My engineer completes faster and can also carry a team in an escort (HEC as I like it to be more class focused) however since the assimilated set and a few other things help to mitigate weapon power drain I have started flying a DKora which can tank most things and still output 5.7k dps according to ACT and should go to 6k when I'm finished getting the gear.
My science performs better in the mobius or advanced escort packing a GW1. It's useful in a vesta or other sci ships when it can use GW3 and other power drains but it can't compete to using the escorts.
Why is this? It's because the entire mission revolves around destroying X number of enemies in Y time for the optional, though I consider failing the optional as failing the mission. If I had 5 exact duplicates of my cruisers or sci ships then the team would do it with optional though the science would be the slowest.
Fleet missions: Now there's a bit more variety here as you can fail for different reasons like letting things get destroyed and with so many enemies spawning sometimes having crowd control helps. My tactical and the escorts perform generally better here as they can melt through most enemies quicker than they can get to the objective to destroy it. However the sci and science ships will shine a bit better here as CC, scramble sensors and other skills will keep the enemy occupied. My cruiser performs less well here because even with 6 in threat control and 2 mk XII +threat consoles things ignore it but can keep the objective alive so it has its own little niche too.
Starbase 24 and gorn minefield: Escorts win hands down as they can rip apart the higher value objectives quicker. Yes CC is nice to have and tanking 100 ships is great but it won't earn you as many points as killing 10 negh'vars or other ships.
Now the way I see it in PvE, which is what most people play, there's no content that requires anything more than kill these dudes fast or that cannot be won by kill these dudes faster. What needs to happen is that we need more content that requires something other than killing things fast or faster. Hive onslaught for STFs was a step in the right direction, not ferpect but a step. Star base blockade is a great example of a balanced mission however people are too stupid to even complete it well. Yes I do mean that. I see many pugs not use tactical team on freighters, all club together on one, not heal it, some even go after enemies nowhere near the freighter.
Anyway to sum up,
Content needs to be more balanced before classes get balanced.
Tacticals complete all content faster.
Escorts with a science or engineer slant complete all content faster.
This is all when you max out the ship/captain for said content.
Exceptions star base blockade and maybe Hive onslaught.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
There's no mention of PvP in the OP's post.
The thread is not in the PvP section of the forums.
...just saying.
Agreed but it also works the other way, a PvP set up is still useful PvE but can be made to be better for PvE
Also I think a lot of the escort pilots for PvP don't invest in skill resists too.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
You know, the arrogance of some players are astounding. Pretty much everyone and their mum knows that PvP set ups are different from PvE. That is basically the same in EVERY mmo where there is PvE and PvP content, with the exception of EvE. For example, in WoW you need resilience gear to do PvP effectively.
The problem is not with people being "under" equipped, the problem is the damage increase of tactical powers are way way way too high when taking the other two classes into consideration.
The reason I say "nerf tacs" is that Cryptic are NOT CAPABLE of creating game balance. They have shown this within 3 years of play. So this is an easier option which does not serve the long time problem but will essentially take minimum Cryptic effort or intelligence. So they should love that idea.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
Again with that old nugget. It is the worst thing you could have contributed to this thread. Then again I expected nothing else. Because you see a few successful science and engi players (and respect to them of course), you assume the entire class is fine. This is tunnel vision. The vast majority of science and engineers (who will not be on these forums to give their testament by the way) will not hold up anywhere near as well.
Five cruisers (cross healing all the while) chain tractor beam, EWP and target engines targetting one escort at at a time. Cruisers - 15, Escorts - 0 ... just sayin.
There is only ONE thing is STO that is truly OP .... TEAMWORK!
How many promises have they really kept when it comes down to the old content? A few bug fixes that their new content created? Speaking of their "new" content, look they ditched that just as fast as the subscription model.
They need to ditch this "ima make as many consoles and doff specialists as possible to make balance impossible" model and go back to a more appearance based model. People WILL pay to have a pretty skin for their ship.
But...
Now we have a new faction coming up, that will also be neglected. It is nothing more than gimmicks now, because that is how we attract the brainwashed public, gimmicks. Content? What name so? Long term goals? Never. Short term $$$$$ gains? Always.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I wonder what would happen if you dropped a Grav Well on the cruisers...
My money's on the escorts. Although mass healing cruisers is a challenge, it's nothing that two or more Subnucs can't take care of, and one mistake by the cruiser team would be catastrophic. Escorts are better able to resist what cruisers can throw at them, and they can bug out (haha) to save their own arses, if all else fails.
I've only just joined a few months ago.
Exactly how long has this been going on?
It was always there somewhat, but manageable, but it got severe after F2P. At first F2P started out not so bad, I was actually hopeful, then it got gradually worse. STO is now nothing more than a propagandist's dream come true.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
This is sadly true. Before PWE when it was just cryptic they stuck true to the "C-store is for cosmetic items only."
Then PWE took over and we fell deep into pay 2 win territory. After that F2P was inevitable as subscribers are generally unwilling to pay to be the underdogs.
It went well for awhile, sure we had a lockbox, that didn't bother me that much. The dilithium exchange was there but it wasn't required.
Then the StarBase release came out, it turned into a huge grindfest for awhile but there were ways to keep up with it without having 100+ people grinding for it. Then the special feature projects which weren't required but asked for insane sums of dilithium. This was a clear attempt to make Dilithium Exchange used more. It just meant you did a few more elite STFs on multiple characters.
It was manageable and not life sucking.
This then later provoked the fleet mark nerf, and then the great Dilithium Nerf of 2012. Making the grindfest ten times longer than before. Killing off small fleets, and increasing Cryptic's cashflow.
But to quote them "this isn't to nerf players ability to gain dilithium, it is to help make dilithium more readily available for all." or something like that. At least that is how I remember it.
At that point all flags were up, there is no end to the greed, the propaganda, and punishment of players who speak out against it. I mean look at their recent gimmick, a countdown to content that will be later released. A ruse, a way to gather hype. Propaganda at its best. What more can you say? What more can you expect?
If anything, these past months... Cryptic has gotten worse, not better.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
People still play this game?
Amazing, because the attitudes of Cryptic and some of its developers essentially amount to belittling insults and some rather unpleasant insinuations towards some of its playerbase.
- Beams are working as designed.
- Dual Heavy Cannons won't be nerfed.
- Something something trinity.
I've come to the conclusion that either they're delusional, desperately understaffed (I've heard that only one guy is in charge of adjusting abilities and thus balance), or that they simply don't care.
Either way, I've made something of an ultimatum for myself. If Cryptic turns things around by the time May comes around, I'll celebrate by buying a $25 game card and will resume periodically buying game cards. However, if nothing worthwhile happens, I'll just leave because it's only going to get more poisonous from there.
Fixed ;o! Sorry but you have to be more reasonable about it.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
In a sense, it is "pay to win" because it can net you a notable advantage over the competition.
So uh...the Escorts won't be crosshealing?
The reason nobody would die and it would be a stalemate is because there's nobody there to drop the SNB.
If somewhere in the direct transaction chain (IE: a subscription doesn't count) real money must be spent to attain a statistical, ability-based or other advantage, it's pay to win.
I've played tac and eng and getting into science. You have to understand the play style. For cruisers. since their turn rate isn't the best I use a combo beam array and turrets. you just need 2 turrets but only if you have room. my average build for the high level cruisers is 2 turrets, beam arrays, and dual beams. depending on cruiser I could do RCS then I focus on a balance to defends against all types of weapons types and shield enhancers. weapons of choice are either tets or antiproton. and officers are geared for healing and attack. and I barely touch TT.
You also have to remember that a Zen ship or even a fleet ship doesn't have to cost anyone any real world cash. Lockbox ships don't either but you have to either be extremely lucky or buy from the exchange where someone most likely paid real cash for it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Funny you say that. I was just in a PvP with a Vesta. I had 125 Aux and I have 9 in particle generators and I use one purple Mk XII particle generator console. I was attacked by an Andorian escort piloted by a tac captain AWAY from the main battle, as in just him, just me. As he closed in to attack attack I hit Feedback pulse III, Tactical Team I, EPtS II and Pol Hull I.
In less than 5 seconds he had ripped through my shields, destroyed my hull and had 93% of his hull left. It's an Andorian escort, a supposed glass cannon. Now tell me that escorts are not OP. If you do, then you're in serious need of help.