Except we have nothing but a forum full of terrible anecdotes to go by.
I've run all cruiser Elite STFs, yes including beam array cruisers, that have finished all of the STFs with optionals and plenty of time to spare on the clock.
What math do you have, that shows a cruiser lasts twice as long but does half as much damage?
The fix for the classes exists in encounter design, but as you can see even normally reasonable posters like bareel seem biased against it.
I've run them as well, but there's a big difference between finshing ISE with 1 minute left or 8 (no kidding)
I'm aware how clueless players can be.
It's sometimes even painful to look at.
Was in a KASE on saturday with a player in an Antiproton DBB-armed Dreadnought Cruiser who couldn't even kill a single probe before it flew into the time vortex.
I'm not sure how that's even possible since a stock ship from the C-Store can do more than that.
The only way I could think of how to test it would be ships with an equal level of equipment (in Mk and rarity) and with the same character build.
Meaning send Tac vs Tac or Engy vs. Engy to compare them without skewing the results too much due to different character flasses and see what the parser spits out.
Not sure what else would be possbile.
The only way I could think of how to test it would be ships with an equal level of equipment (in Mk and rarity) and with the same character build.
Meaning send Tac vs Tac or Engy vs. Engy to compare them without skewing the results too much due to different character flasses and see what the parser spits out.
Not sure what else would be possbile.
I mean that's one way to cut down on career discussions, but there is also a lot to be said for synergy.
Tac/Escort is synergistic, Tac/Beam Array Cruiser is not.
So this puts a dent in the equation.
The Tac/Beam Array Cruiser is not working with synergistic tools to either be DPS or be survivable (I say this as someone with 2 Tac/Cruiser characters).
If people do not like the trinity, then they will forever be stuck with what they have.
Tanks with no content that requires them, and Controllers that have a nebulous amount of usefulness at best.
This leads to constant threads demanding more damage output from these classes that do in fact have abilities in other areas, but those abilities are unneeded due to PvE encounter design.
It always comes back to PvE encounter design, and the problems we see people complaining about here are problems I watched people complain about in City of Heroes for years as well.
PvP is a different case, and actually Sci ships have much stronger representation there.
Sorry Adamkafei but your build isn't going to do good damage as a beam boat cruiser, however it is only because new equipment came out in S7 that allows for you to do more damage now. Before season 7 all cruisers would have done equally as bad.
The trick to getting good damage out of beams is addressing the drain on them, we've all seen they are capable of 1200-2000 damage per beam if you get the omega weapon amplifier proc thingy. That's kinda the trick to it, the 2 piece omega adapted borg set, also running APB couldn't hurt either and disruptor proc will help even more. You're also going to be supporting the team by increasing their damage too! The reason I say APB is because it works well with FAW on things that don't fire at you, I know you have delta and its a good skill but has a longer cool down and won't debuff enemies if they don't shoot you.
Couple all that with the....actually I think I'm telling too much about my ideal D'Kora build but it's safe to say it can handle probes on KASE and the transformer, might take a bit longer but it can reliably do it and tank everything without dying to fair damage as an engineer.
However it will never be able to make up for the sheer ineptitude of some players like an escort will but it will still carry its weight and then some.
My commander engineer is similar to yours, more or less but I use 2xEptW1, 2xEptS2, extend 2 and AtSIF3. TTx2, BFAW2, APB2. Science is the usual HE and TSS. It means I don't need to use Conn officers or damage control doffs so I can go for a reduction on BFAW and shield distribution doffs for a handy heal.
EDIT:
Just done ISE and here's a parse of the damage done. I am EPharma as an engineer in the D'Kora as described above, 7 beams and 1 torp. It's not perfect yet, need another month to get everything (mainly gear) completely finished then I should be doing over 6k average.
If people do not like the trinity, then they will forever be stuck with what they have.
The trinity is not that simple. It cannot work within the framework of STO design at all for more reasons than I care to list here since I have already done so in the past.
I also find it amusing HSE is brought up as a shining example of how content should be designed even though it is well not that great.
Starbase Blockade is well designed for the current systems to promote diversity, but most defiantly not HSE.
I also find it amusing when the hardcore players ignore the majority of the playerbase, the casual players who frankly are not that good at the game, when making design suggestions with the idea that their opinions do not matter.
Guess what, this game is as easy as it is because of the low skilled masses. Change that and watch the playerbase shrink rapidly. That would be a bad thing.
I mean that's one way to cut down on career discussions, but there is also a lot to be said for synergy.
Tac/Escort is synergistic, Tac/Beam Array Cruiser is not.
So this puts a dent in the equation.
The Tac/Beam Array Cruiser is not working with synergistic tools to either be DPS or be survivable (I say this as someone with 2 Tac/Cruiser characters).
If people do not like the trinity, then they will forever be stuck with what they have.
Tanks with no content that requires them, and Controllers that have a nebulous amount of usefulness at best.
This leads to constant threads demanding more damage output from these classes that do in fact have abilities in other areas, but those abilities are unneeded due to PvE encounter design.
It always comes back to PvE encounter design, and the problems we see people complaining about here are problems I watched people complain about in City of Heroes for years as well.
PvP is a different case, and actually Sci ships have much stronger representation there.
Agreed. Content that does not challenge all careers/classes is not fun and lets two choice become unfun.
The trinity is not that simple. It cannot work within the framework of STO design at all for more reasons than I care to list here since I have already done so in the past.
It doesn't need to be the pure trinity gaming that people think of, I'm not asking for that.
All I'm asking for is a reason to actually play a Cruiser like a Cruiser.
Cruisers are clearly designed to be mediocre at damage at best, and designed to be more survivable.
There is no point at all to that design unless you have encounters that put that ship class to the test, without randomly one shotting it.
Again, we have two types of damage in PvE: "tickle" and "one-shot"
Tickle doesn't threaten anyone.
One-shot makes healer/tanks obsolete.
Encounters we have, almost universally, stuff that needs to be killed but very rarely controlled.
This marginalizes Sci ships.
All I'm asking for is higher average DPS, enough to stress a good cruiser build and make Escorts running off and soloing everything out of the realm of mere mortals, while toning down the spikes so a cruiser can't suddenly be vaporized because they didn't happen to notice 1 single torpedo or didn't have BFAW ready.
That, and some objectives that only require you to control but not necessarily kill some things.
That's poor encounter design imo.
What else do you suggest?
Do you actually think that a 250 degree arc beam, that any ship including the most resilient in the game can slot, should ever be more powerful than it is?
High average DPS, enough to stress even a cruiser and completely overburden an Escort would lead to a better role space for Cruisers and Sci ships.
And in turn would escorts be utterly dependent on services (healing) that likely wouldn't be there most of the time? Yes, we would, in this higher sustained damage world of yours. Let's not forget for a second that this game is populated by individuals, not bound-by-honor roleplayers who'll perform their assigned duties like clockwork. If escorts are crippled by an inherent lack of healing ability, (and by that I mean tac/escort pairings) as so many here seem to be hot for, what's the point?
I won't hover around the nearest sci/cruiser and wait patiently for a heal. I'll park my account and play something else. I'd imagine that several other tac captains would feel the same way.
And in turn would escorts be utterly dependent on services (healing) that likely wouldn't be there most of the time? Yes, we would, in this higher sustained damage world of yours. Let's not forget for a second that this game is populated by individuals, not bound-by-honor roleplayers who'll perform their assigned duties like clockwork. If escorts are crippled by an inherent lack of healing ability, (and by that I mean tac/escort pairings) as so many here seem to be hot for, what's the point?
I won't hover around the nearest sci/cruiser and wait patiently for a heal. I'll park my account and play something else. I'd imagine that several other tac captains would feel the same way.
Yet you expect cruiser captains to be "bound-by-honor roleplayers", don't you. That's what pretty much all escort jockeys expect out of their cruiser compatriots.
ESCORTS
pros:
- DHCs
- extremely high turnrate
- high durability through high defense
- Tactical BOFF Skills which are unequal more useful/stronger than Engineering or Science
cons:
- very little crew
- about 10000 less Hull Hitpoints than cruisers
Problem:
First: The narrow fireing arch DHCs have, is completely compensated by escorts extremely high turnrate, so it is not even nearly a drawback as some people want to sell us.
Second: Hull resistance and healing PLUS extremely high defense make those ships even harder to destroy than a cruiser IMO.
Third: Considered that Escorts are supposed to be glass cannons, just giving them 10000 less hull hitpoints than a unequally slower Cruiser is far from being balanced. Their Hull Hitpoints should be in inverse proportion to their Firepower, compared to cruisers.
cons:
- very low turnrate
- Too few low level Engineering powers/ too many of them share the same cooldown
- Too unbalanced BOFF layout for ships which are supposed to be All round ships.
- restricted to Beam weapons and single cannons/turrets. Those weapons are just good enough to tickle the enemy, but they can't seriously threat anyone.
- Engineering powers much too passive.
Problem:
First: the same as above just reversed, giving them roughly 10000 more hitpoints is just too little if they are supposed to tank.
Second: Restricting Starfleet Cruisers to the weakest weapons availlable is just unfair IMO, since klingon Cruisers can use DHCs and have just a little less Hull Hitpoints as compensation.
Third: Too much one sided Engineering powers, that make those ships the most passive and the most boring in STO. (especially Starfleet cruisers, which cannot even equip DHCs)
Sollution:
- Beam Weapons should drain less weapons energy.
- Releasing a universal console which makes Heavy Cannons availlabe for Starfleet Cruisers. This would occupy one console slot at those ships. No Hull Hitpoint loss, since Starfleet Cruisers in general are still less maneuverable than KDF Crusiers, while Klingon Cruiser still can use DHCs instead of just Heavy Cannons. (this console would also change the Heavy Cannons fx to look like a Beam weapon, just for the sake of canon, i know no one cares about that anyway. )
- Adding some (2-3) offensive Engineering BOFF Powers that make those ships less passive. (maybe some Beam weapon focussed powers like Beam Weapon rapid fire or a more narrow FAW version. Just some ideas.)
- Giving all Cruisers +2 turnrate. (Seriously everything below 8 is just a pain and hasn't anything to do with balance anymore. It just makes those ships boring to fly.)
-Either raising Cruisers Hull/Shield Hitpoints about x2 (science x1,5) or lowering Escorts Hull/Shield Hitpoints about 50%, either way the relations as they are now are not nearly balanced IMO.
Personally i would be against nerfing Escorts, this would only upset a lot of people, while the same result could be archieved by other means as well.
I would rather Buff Cruisers/Science ships and Science/Engineering BOFF powers a bit more, if necessary.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
ESCORTS
pros:
- DHCs
- extremely high turnrate
- high durability through high defense
- Tactical BOFF Skills which are unequal more useful/stronger than Engineering or Science
cons:
- very little crew
- about 10000 less Hull Hitpoints than cruisers
Problem:
I don't get you guys, I really don't. You keep bringing up tac boff powers but I look at my sci and engi alt ships and I see they have tac boff stations too. I buff my sci powers with tac boff powers and high aux as well as speccing into the appropriate skills. My engi alt uses APO and APD just fine. Where does it say they can only be used in escorts?
But, if you want to complain about cruisers being forced to be tanks to get the most use of their innate abilities as something that is unfair there would be merit in that (there is also merit in saying that some cruisers are just BAD in light of the current metagame). All I ask is that you look at KDF battlecruisers. They have most of the advantages that fed cruisers lack. If anything I'd be clamoring to get fed cruisers changed to be more like KDF battlecruisers but is anyone doing that?
Its a known and accepted fact that most layers generally prefer to not play tanks or healers if they can. Conversely its also known that most of the people that love to play tanks love the hero nature of it. Going so far as to lament their lack of hero-ness in games liek STO where they are nice to have (but only if they are good) but not required. This usually works out fine since you need few tanks in comparison to everything else in most games, but in STO having the semi iconic ship type be such an unpopular role has clearly proven problematic.
At this time I think we'd be better off redesigning the cruiser as a true general purpose ship instead of it current setup as a tank. More or less a counterpart to the generalist BoP. Naturally it would not have cloak or be particularly maneuverable but it would pack stronger shields and hull and have a good mix of boff stations or maybe have a few Uni stations as well.
This would allow for a bit more flexibility in the varous ships. The Ody could be even slower than the rest ut have stronger shields/hull, while the excelsior could be a little more maneuverable at teh cost of... maybe a weapon slot less? I'm not sure, but it could be worked out.
Cruisers should produce way more power in total than small escorts. The solution to cruisers being underpowered could thus be to increase the base value of power produced as well as increasing the maximum power level of each system.
The same beam array installed on an Odyssey class and on a Defiant class should deal way more damage from the cruiser because it can divert more power to it. It has more fusion reactors, a bigger warp reactor etc...
I think increasing the maximum power level by 20 to 145 each and increasing the base value of power by 15 to each system would be reasonable.
For science ships the base value of Aux power could be increased by 30 and more weapons using Aux only would make this class more attractive and effective.
Cruisers should produce way more power in total than small escorts. The solution to cruisers being underpowered could thus be to increase the base value of power produced as well as increasing the maximum power level of each system.
The same beam array installed on an Odyssey class and on a Defiant class should deal way more damage from the cruiser because it can divert more power to it. It has more fusion reactors, a bigger warp reactor etc...
I think increasing the maximum power level by 20 to 145 each and increasing the base value of power by 15 to each system would be reasonable.
For science ships the base value of Aux power could be increased by 30 and more weapons using Aux only would make this class more attractive and effective.
Aux-based weapons are basically a way of making Vestas into pseudo-escorts...
It seems like the game is spiralling up a DPS vortex where everything just revolves around DPS, and that the only other factors worth considering are ways to improve survivability. Which then of course, sends everything into a vicious cycle.
Gotta agree there eraserfish, we don't want the game becoming a DPS cycle and while I'll agree the vesta and its aux powered DHCs are great and do a lot of damage it does show the developers attitude to just give a way of lazily doing damage rather than fix science skills to do more than tickle end game enemies.
As for beams and cruisers I've already mentioned the main problem is the power drain, if you can combat that, beams do what they're supposed to. Perhaps allowing more then DEM with a doff and a 2 piece rare proc to give weapon drain resistance would improve things and certainly make cruisers do the damage they are supposed to be doing. The problem is how do you do it without making it completely exploitable by escorts with DHCs.
Maybe bring it out as a weapon mod for beams might solve the problem but then again just change the mechanics would be better. Could bring it to higher ranking engineer abilities but that has problems too. The other alternative is bring it out as an extra for cruisers like how gecko was saying about the armour thing for cruisers, well instead of armour give them a warp reactor slot for them which can either give power drain resistance, extra levels or a whole host of other things.
I don't get you guys, I really don't. You keep bringing up tac boff powers but I look at my sci and engi alt ships and I see they have tac boff stations too. I buff my sci powers with tac boff powers and high aux as well as speccing into the appropriate skills. My engi alt uses APO and APD just fine. Where does it say they can only be used in escorts?
Please show me how to use APO with just a Lt. and a Ensign Tactical BOFF, or just a single Lt tac BOFF...
The problem is, even if you look at low level powers (ensign or lt. for example) tactical gets a much wider array of powers than Engineering.
On the other hand high level Tactical BOFF powers (Lt.Cmdr or Cmdr.) are the only ones really boosting offensive of a ship. Of course you can run 1 CRF on a assault Cruiser but compared to a Escort which can utilize CRF 3 and APO1 for example the cruisers offensive is just a joke.
Now, if you compare the survivability of a Escorts and a Cruiser, although a Cruiser has much more engineering BOFF slots a Escort gets such a high defensive bonus it is almost indestructable by a Cruiser, if the escort pilot knows what to do.
But, if you want to complain about cruisers being forced to be tanks to get the most use of their innate abilities as something that is unfair there would be merit in that (there is also merit in saying that some cruisers are just BAD in light of the current metagame). All I ask is that you look at KDF battlecruisers. They have most of the advantages that fed cruisers lack. If anything I'd be clamoring to get fed cruisers changed to be more like KDF battlecruisers but is anyone doing that?
...
- Releasing a universal console which makes Heavy Cannons availlabe for Starfleet Cruisers. This would occupy one console slot at those ships. No Hull Hitpoint loss, since Starfleet Cruisers in general are still less maneuverable than KDF Crusiers, while Klingon Cruiser still can use DHCs instead of just Heavy Cannons. (this console would also change the Heavy Cannons fx to look like a Beam weapon, just for the sake of canon, i know no one cares about that anyway. )
...
My point is, that by just giving starfleet Cruisers a tiny bit more Hull Hitpoints than their KDF counterparts doesn't compensate the almost complete lack of good and effective offensive weapon.
By introducing such a console Starfleet Cruisers would automaticly have one less Console (of course) and where just be able to equip Heavy Cannons, so KDF cruiser captains would stilll have nothing to complain about. Both ship types would still be different.
Its a known and accepted fact that most layers generally prefer to not play tanks or healers if they can. Conversely its also known that most of the people that love to play tanks love the hero nature of it. Going so far as to lament their lack of hero-ness in games liek STO where they are nice to have (but only if they are good) but not required. This usually works out fine since you need few tanks in comparison to everything else in most games, but in STO having the semi iconic ship type be such an unpopular role has clearly proven problematic.
At this time I think we'd be better off redesigning the cruiser as a true general purpose ship instead of it current setup as a tank. More or less a counterpart to the generalist BoP. Naturally it would not have cloak or be particularly maneuverable but it would pack stronger shields and hull and have a good mix of boff stations or maybe have a few Uni stations as well.
This would allow for a bit more flexibility in the varous ships. The Ody could be even slower than the rest ut have stronger shields/hull, while the excelsior could be a little more maneuverable at teh cost of... maybe a weapon slot less? I'm not sure, but it could be worked out.
That was exactly my point.
I would very much prefer to have Cruisers to be a highly durable alll round ship. Being able to survive a bit better than a Escort, but of course not as highly maneuverable.
On the other hand, they should be focussed on utilizing science and tactical powers depending on their ship class (Galaxy Class maybe a bit more science focussed, Sovereign more tactical focussed for example. Just an idea.)
But having them practically motionless and not capable to be offensive in a satisfying way, makes them just a big target practice in PvP and extremely boring in PvE.
Maybe bring it out as a weapon mod for beams might solve the problem but then again just change the mechanics would be better. Could bring it to higher ranking engineer abilities but that has problems too. The other alternative is bring it out as an extra for cruisers like how gecko was saying about the armour thing for cruisers, well instead of armour give them a warp reactor slot for them which can either give power drain resistance, extra levels or a whole host of other things.
I like that idea!
It would help finally making Cruisers becoming much more all-round ships instead of just serving as healer/tank thingy for escorts. (i just hate the very idea of Star Trek ships/cruisers serving as flying hospitals)
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Yes I made this suggestion in the armour slot thread but it seems to have been ignored, I REALLY don't want to see an armour slot. It's shoe horning a ship class into a role; when it's the captain that is supposed to bring the role to the ship not the other way around.
In fact they could even bring out warp reactors, or whatever they call them, which have polarise hull or something similar as an ability like some shuttles have. Give it a 1 min cool down and you've appeased both crowds. Choose between 2 types, ones that give a constant buff or ones that give you a useful activated ability to augment certain styles. So many things you could do with it and it would make sense in 95% of situations.
Yet you expect cruiser captains to be "bound-by-honor roleplayers", don't you. That's what pretty much all escort jockeys expect out of their cruiser compatriots.
I don't expect anything from most people, if that's what you're getting at. Things are a lot more palatable that way. However, having seen what a cruiser captain can do if he/she decides to play the game the way Cryptic designed it to be played, STF's can be a sight more efficient.
I think what the devs need to do is change the way threat is generated.
Maybe it should be based off of hull hitpoints or something. All I know is I have seen maybe once or twice has a cruiser ever gained threat over myself.
And then, because they had to sacrifice everything into dps to get that threat, they are in the same boat as escorts for no tanking...
And in turn would escorts be utterly dependent on services (healing) that likely wouldn't be there most of the time?
The only reason it's not there most of the time is because of the design of current content.
There is no need to bring a healer, therefore no one brings a healer.
You can play a tank, but you can be tickled for 2 straight minutes and then suddenly one-shot out of existence.
So there is no need to play a tank.
I'm sorry if you feel that you should never need anyone else to play group content in a game focused on group content at the endgame, a game where other people play along side you.
For the record, you need other team mates now, the only difference would be what is that you need them for.
Unless you actually think you can solo HSE or CSE by yourself, you need those other players now so you can actually complete the mission and get the optional .
Also, before you get on some Escort vs. Cruiser bent, I have 10 L50 characters - only 2 of them are in Cruisers and only 1 of them is in a Sci ship. I am an Escort player first and foremost, with seven characters in some kind of Escort or Escort-like hybrid.
I'm not out to get the Escorts, I'm interested in...more interesting content than the shooting galleries of HP sacks than we have now.
Yes, we would, in this higher sustained damage world of yours. Let's not forget for a second that this game is populated by individuals, not bound-by-honor roleplayers who'll perform their assigned duties like clockwork. If escorts are crippled by an inherent lack of healing ability, (and by that I mean tac/escort pairings) as so many here seem to be hot for, what's the point?
You've basically just described the exact situation of Cruisers and Sci ships in PvE.
They are "crippled" by the PvE environment not requiring the abilities they were actually designed with and only requiring the ability (DPS) that they were not designed with.
Would you like for them to get some damage boost so they are both more versatile and more survivable than an Escort? Because that is the only direction to make them viable at this point in PvE. This would in fact make Escorts more useless, than simply having someone tank and someone toss heals around.
I think that is an absolutely terrible direction, and I hope the game never goes there.
I won't hover around the nearest sci/cruiser and wait patiently for a heal. I'll park my account and play something else. I'd imagine that several other tac captains would feel the same way.
You're already tossing out the "I will quit" line?
No one is asking you to hover with a baby sitter, healing, buffing and CC in this game is actually very fluid and dynamic.
You can see this if you ever PvP, where you do in fact want several types of ships filling roles for each other.
Tanks make an elite STF much quicker by drawing aggro but other players should heal the tank when they're drawing a lot of it. For example when they have 7 spheres using tachyon beam and firing at the tank, the tank is probably going to be fine but why not throw them a shield heal while you aren't being targeted?
Science...still not needed at the moment, some cruisers and escorts already have access to the only skill they have that are worth a damn. They also can't match a cruiser in damage either as they have 2 weapon slots less which makes a massive difference.
Point is a cruiser that can tank and do it well, when also supported by the team is valuable, however you only need 1. Second point is that despite this games intention that everyone can have a mixed bag of tricks and can help heal each other nobody bloomin does. Cruisers can do decent damage, I would rather they got a slow creeping up of power drain resistance up to 100 to make them function better as the battle went on but that's about all I think needs doing.
I think what the devs need to do is change the way threat is generated.
Maybe it should be based off of hull hitpoints or something. All I know is I have seen maybe once or twice has a cruiser ever gained threat over myself.
And then, because they had to sacrifice everything into dps to get that threat, they are in the same boat as escorts for no tanking...
agro managment is fine as it is.
problem is most captains dont use threat control skill, or just have 1-3 points on it, i nearly never ever loose agro to anyone, and can hold on against 2 tac cubes aor several spheres on elite nearly indefinitly
something like that, exept for consoles used another build to make one and cba look for all consoles right now, in general they are near those.
ofc when i have several oponents to tank BFW isnt enough to hold aggro from all, after everyone is shooting diferent target. few hits from it cant compensate high dps from escorts, but if people are more cooperative and for example they target and shoot my target, they will never get hit from something diferent then AoE.
EDIT: runing at 125 weapon power, nearly never drops under 90-100, with 2x EpS my shiled power is nearly all the time over 100-110, engine about 80 and aux like 60. altho im alien captain with space only oriented traits, like warp teorist, elusive, the other one that boost power levels, forgot the name.
agro managment is fine as it is.
problem is most captains dont use threat control skill, or just have 1-3 points on it, i nearly never ever loose agro to anyone, and can hold on against 2 tac cubes aor several spheres on elite nearly indefinitly
Might I recommend FAW2 and a second TT1 than the other way around? (more targets, damage, overall threat creation and all that)
However as we seem to have moved from an experiment to end all "cruisers are UP" threads to a "Your build is TRIBBLE and mines better (but only marginally, maybe)" threads I would like to appeal to a mod to have it closed.
The only reason it's not there most of the time is because of the design of current content.
There is no need to bring a healer, therefore no one brings a healer.
I don't know if you've noticed, but not many people want to play dedicated healer. A great deal of friction in these forums is created by people who just want to lay down DPS, no matter what ship-class they're wearing.
You can play a tank, but you can be tickled for 2 straight minutes and then suddenly one-shot out of existence.
So there is no need to play a tank.
I've seen exceptions to this, but okay.
I'm sorry if you feel that you should never need anyone else to play group content in a game focused on group content at the endgame, a game where other people play along side you.
This is a willful misconception of both my "feelings" and requirements for fun and rewarding game play. I've played my share of class-based games, in the genre's I prefer, and not one of them requires that one class be utterly dependent on another for survival. Let's not confuse the way things work with the way YOU want them to work.
...the only difference would be what is that you need them for.
A "difference" that would ruin the game for me, as I said.
Unless you actually think you can solo HSE or CSE by yourself, you need those other players now so you can actually complete the mission and get the optional.
None of this has anything to do with whether I can, at least to some degree, heal/repair myself, right?
Also, before you get on some Escort vs. Cruiser bent,...
I'm not concerned about cruisers as such, and never indicated that I was. No strawmen, okay?
I'm not out to get the Escorts, I'm interested in...more interesting content than the shooting galleries of HP sacks than we have now.
More interesting content would be a win for us all, but it shouldn't (and won't) come at the expense of one class.
They are "crippled" by the PvE environment not requiring the abilities they were actually designed with and only requiring the ability (DPS) that they were not designed with.
This is a matter of interpretation. In an escort I'm always happy to see a sci show up with some decent CC abilities, or a cruiser who can sustain some aggro, while I go to work.
Would you like for them to get some damage boost so they are both more versatile and more survivable than an Escort?
I can't say it really matters to me as long as my profession isn't gimped in the process.
You're already tossing out the "I will quit" line?
Characterize what I said any way that makes you feel good, but I mean precisely what I said. If it comes down to it (I seriously doubt it will, Cryptic isn't a stupid company) I can easily move to a game that doesn't lash me to a fate dictated by other players.
Yes it has gone a bit off track but still there are some suggestions on how to increase your damage without losing much tanking ability. The original point of the thread was to see if they could get good damage from a build that is set up to tank/heal/CC and doesn't take advantage of easily attainable gear that will increase damage, which you won't.
Now I hear some people have managed to get 21k dps from aux to batt builds but I'd take that with a massive pinch of salt as they are probably tacticals and its probably spread over 10-15 enemies which isn't very useful unless tagging with APB. I'm not saying cruisers are a shining example of how it should be be done but its no where near as gimped and useless as science.
The original point of the thread was to see if they could get good damage from a build that is set up to tank/heal/CC and doesn't take advantage of easily attainable gear that will increase damage, which you won't.
No. The original point of this thread was to get the lead systems designer to play a cruiser build and find out what beam arrays are like in day to day play to end escorts vs cruiser threads.
I'm quite happy with my build which does take advantage of Attack pattern Beta and does take advantage of the borg console and does take advantage of the MACO set. I could build an Aux2Batt build but that costs too much healing for my liking.
I can do 5k DPS over an ISE and I can tank everything in said run and still heal others and the only time I use TT on myself is when a facing shield goes down in one hit meaning I can throw it at others in need of it.
I don't know if you've noticed, but not many people want to play dedicated healer. A great deal of friction in these forums is created by people who just want to lay down DPS, no matter what ship-class they're wearing.
Who is asking you to?
You've been reading my posts correct?
Being able to heal yourself some, and being able to be a self contained unit not requiring any other heals of any kind is quite another.
This is a willful misconception of both my "feelings" and requirements for fun and rewarding game play. I've played my share of class-based games, in the genre's I prefer, and not one of them requires that one class be utterly dependent on another for survival. Let's not confuse the way things work with the way YOU want them to work.
Let's not confuse how you seem to think they work with how they do work.
Right now no one is dependant on anyone for anything except more DPS.
I don't want everyone to be hyperspecialized and with A being totally reliant on B for X and vice versa for Y.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Read the thread, and others just like it that pop up on a daily basis. This tread's title says quite a bit as well.
Being able to heal yourself some, and being able to be a self contained unit not requiring any other heals of any kind is quite another.
Then we seem to be nearly on the same page here. In the Kumari, or any of the other escorts I have for that matter, once I have big aggro I have to pop whatever measures I have charged and start driving out of range. In this respect, I'm both limited (low level heals that are few) and self-sustaining (I'll regenerate once I'm not taking fire). In this new world that you propose, having either one of these conditions gimped or taken away entirely would be a deal-breaker for me.
Let's not confuse how you seem to think they work with how they do work.
Let's be civil, okay? I've given you no indication whatsoever that I'm "confused" over anything. I know precisely what I do, and don't want from this game.
Right now no one is dependant on anyone for anything except more DPS.
Dependent on each other for more than DPS? No, and that's just as it should be. That's not to say that a service rendered every now and again isn't appreciated. For instance, when looking for targets I routinely engage attackers that are bum-rushing a teammate. See what I mean? There's no game mechanic that forces me to do this. I do it because keeping my team alive furthers our collective goal of achieving the objective.
I don't want everyone to be hyperspecialized and with A being totally reliant on B for X and vice versa for Y.
Wait, it seems like that's exactly what you want.
Your saying the game would be ruined if some content actually made tanking and healing useful and strong options?
I've said no such thing, and you know it. If Cryptic wants to make "some content" tanking and healing friendly, that's their perogative. I'm free to avoid said content if it damages MY experience. However, if they decide to pattern ALL content on your idea (again, not going to happen), then the game is ruined for ME, which is all I really care about.
Comments
I've run them as well, but there's a big difference between finshing ISE with 1 minute left or 8 (no kidding)
I'm aware how clueless players can be.
It's sometimes even painful to look at.
Was in a KASE on saturday with a player in an Antiproton DBB-armed Dreadnought Cruiser who couldn't even kill a single probe before it flew into the time vortex.
I'm not sure how that's even possible since a stock ship from the C-Store can do more than that.
The only way I could think of how to test it would be ships with an equal level of equipment (in Mk and rarity) and with the same character build.
Meaning send Tac vs Tac or Engy vs. Engy to compare them without skewing the results too much due to different character flasses and see what the parser spits out.
Not sure what else would be possbile.
I mean that's one way to cut down on career discussions, but there is also a lot to be said for synergy.
Tac/Escort is synergistic, Tac/Beam Array Cruiser is not.
So this puts a dent in the equation.
The Tac/Beam Array Cruiser is not working with synergistic tools to either be DPS or be survivable (I say this as someone with 2 Tac/Cruiser characters).
If people do not like the trinity, then they will forever be stuck with what they have.
Tanks with no content that requires them, and Controllers that have a nebulous amount of usefulness at best.
This leads to constant threads demanding more damage output from these classes that do in fact have abilities in other areas, but those abilities are unneeded due to PvE encounter design.
It always comes back to PvE encounter design, and the problems we see people complaining about here are problems I watched people complain about in City of Heroes for years as well.
PvP is a different case, and actually Sci ships have much stronger representation there.
<opens mouth and inserts foot>
Guess I'm obliged to make a serious attempt at getting that kamarag to work.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I completely agree. We really need content requiring a bit of the 3 classes, similar to hive onslaught elite.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The way it was during Tribble testing
The trick to getting good damage out of beams is addressing the drain on them, we've all seen they are capable of 1200-2000 damage per beam if you get the omega weapon amplifier proc thingy. That's kinda the trick to it, the 2 piece omega adapted borg set, also running APB couldn't hurt either and disruptor proc will help even more. You're also going to be supporting the team by increasing their damage too! The reason I say APB is because it works well with FAW on things that don't fire at you, I know you have delta and its a good skill but has a longer cool down and won't debuff enemies if they don't shoot you.
Couple all that with the....actually I think I'm telling too much about my ideal D'Kora build but it's safe to say it can handle probes on KASE and the transformer, might take a bit longer but it can reliably do it and tank everything without dying to fair damage as an engineer.
However it will never be able to make up for the sheer ineptitude of some players like an escort will but it will still carry its weight and then some.
My commander engineer is similar to yours, more or less but I use 2xEptW1, 2xEptS2, extend 2 and AtSIF3. TTx2, BFAW2, APB2. Science is the usual HE and TSS. It means I don't need to use Conn officers or damage control doffs so I can go for a reduction on BFAW and shield distribution doffs for a handy heal.
EDIT:
Just done ISE and here's a parse of the damage done. I am EPharma as an engineer in the D'Kora as described above, 7 beams and 1 torp. It's not perfect yet, need another month to get everything (mainly gear) completely finished then I should be doing over 6k average.
http://i.imgur.com/Tw6tK7C.png
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
The trinity is not that simple. It cannot work within the framework of STO design at all for more reasons than I care to list here since I have already done so in the past.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=586341
I also find it amusing HSE is brought up as a shining example of how content should be designed even though it is well not that great.
Starbase Blockade is well designed for the current systems to promote diversity, but most defiantly not HSE.
I also find it amusing when the hardcore players ignore the majority of the playerbase, the casual players who frankly are not that good at the game, when making design suggestions with the idea that their opinions do not matter.
Guess what, this game is as easy as it is because of the low skilled masses. Change that and watch the playerbase shrink rapidly. That would be a bad thing.
Agreed. Content that does not challenge all careers/classes is not fun and lets two choice become unfun.
R.I.P
It doesn't need to be the pure trinity gaming that people think of, I'm not asking for that.
All I'm asking for is a reason to actually play a Cruiser like a Cruiser.
Cruisers are clearly designed to be mediocre at damage at best, and designed to be more survivable.
There is no point at all to that design unless you have encounters that put that ship class to the test, without randomly one shotting it.
Again, we have two types of damage in PvE: "tickle" and "one-shot"
Tickle doesn't threaten anyone.
One-shot makes healer/tanks obsolete.
Encounters we have, almost universally, stuff that needs to be killed but very rarely controlled.
This marginalizes Sci ships.
All I'm asking for is higher average DPS, enough to stress a good cruiser build and make Escorts running off and soloing everything out of the realm of mere mortals, while toning down the spikes so a cruiser can't suddenly be vaporized because they didn't happen to notice 1 single torpedo or didn't have BFAW ready.
That, and some objectives that only require you to control but not necessarily kill some things.
That's poor encounter design imo.
What else do you suggest?
Do you actually think that a 250 degree arc beam, that any ship including the most resilient in the game can slot, should ever be more powerful than it is?
If not, why would you compare it to cannons?
And in turn would escorts be utterly dependent on services (healing) that likely wouldn't be there most of the time? Yes, we would, in this higher sustained damage world of yours. Let's not forget for a second that this game is populated by individuals, not bound-by-honor roleplayers who'll perform their assigned duties like clockwork. If escorts are crippled by an inherent lack of healing ability, (and by that I mean tac/escort pairings) as so many here seem to be hot for, what's the point?
I won't hover around the nearest sci/cruiser and wait patiently for a heal. I'll park my account and play something else. I'd imagine that several other tac captains would feel the same way.
Yet you expect cruiser captains to be "bound-by-honor roleplayers", don't you. That's what pretty much all escort jockeys expect out of their cruiser compatriots.
ESCORTS
pros:
- DHCs
- extremely high turnrate
- high durability through high defense
- Tactical BOFF Skills which are unequal more useful/stronger than Engineering or Science
cons:
- very little crew
- about 10000 less Hull Hitpoints than cruisers
Problem:
First: The narrow fireing arch DHCs have, is completely compensated by escorts extremely high turnrate, so it is not even nearly a drawback as some people want to sell us.
Second: Hull resistance and healing PLUS extremely high defense make those ships even harder to destroy than a cruiser IMO.
Third: Considered that Escorts are supposed to be glass cannons, just giving them 10000 less hull hitpoints than a unequally slower Cruiser is far from being balanced. Their Hull Hitpoints should be in inverse proportion to their Firepower, compared to cruisers.
CRUISERS
pros:
-many Engineering BOFF slots
- 4 weapons fore/aft
cons:
- very low turnrate
- Too few low level Engineering powers/ too many of them share the same cooldown
- Too unbalanced BOFF layout for ships which are supposed to be All round ships.
- restricted to Beam weapons and single cannons/turrets. Those weapons are just good enough to tickle the enemy, but they can't seriously threat anyone.
- Engineering powers much too passive.
Problem:
First: the same as above just reversed, giving them roughly 10000 more hitpoints is just too little if they are supposed to tank.
Second: Restricting Starfleet Cruisers to the weakest weapons availlable is just unfair IMO, since klingon Cruisers can use DHCs and have just a little less Hull Hitpoints as compensation.
Third: Too much one sided Engineering powers, that make those ships the most passive and the most boring in STO.
(especially Starfleet cruisers, which cannot even equip DHCs)
Sollution:
- Beam Weapons should drain less weapons energy.
- Releasing a universal console which makes Heavy Cannons availlabe for Starfleet Cruisers. This would occupy one console slot at those ships. No Hull Hitpoint loss, since Starfleet Cruisers in general are still less maneuverable than KDF Crusiers, while Klingon Cruiser still can use DHCs instead of just Heavy Cannons.
(this console would also change the Heavy Cannons fx to look like a Beam weapon, just for the sake of canon, i know no one cares about that anyway.
- Adding some (2-3) offensive Engineering BOFF Powers that make those ships less passive.
(maybe some Beam weapon focussed powers like Beam Weapon rapid fire or a more narrow FAW version. Just some ideas.)
- Giving all Cruisers +2 turnrate.
(Seriously everything below 8 is just a pain and hasn't anything to do with balance anymore. It just makes those ships boring to fly.)
-Either raising Cruisers Hull/Shield Hitpoints about x2 (science x1,5) or lowering Escorts Hull/Shield Hitpoints about 50%, either way the relations as they are now are not nearly balanced IMO.
Personally i would be against nerfing Escorts, this would only upset a lot of people, while the same result could be archieved by other means as well.
I would rather Buff Cruisers/Science ships and Science/Engineering BOFF powers a bit more, if necessary.
I don't get you guys, I really don't. You keep bringing up tac boff powers but I look at my sci and engi alt ships and I see they have tac boff stations too. I buff my sci powers with tac boff powers and high aux as well as speccing into the appropriate skills. My engi alt uses APO and APD just fine. Where does it say they can only be used in escorts?
But, if you want to complain about cruisers being forced to be tanks to get the most use of their innate abilities as something that is unfair there would be merit in that (there is also merit in saying that some cruisers are just BAD in light of the current metagame). All I ask is that you look at KDF battlecruisers. They have most of the advantages that fed cruisers lack. If anything I'd be clamoring to get fed cruisers changed to be more like KDF battlecruisers but is anyone doing that?
Its a known and accepted fact that most layers generally prefer to not play tanks or healers if they can. Conversely its also known that most of the people that love to play tanks love the hero nature of it. Going so far as to lament their lack of hero-ness in games liek STO where they are nice to have (but only if they are good) but not required. This usually works out fine since you need few tanks in comparison to everything else in most games, but in STO having the semi iconic ship type be such an unpopular role has clearly proven problematic.
At this time I think we'd be better off redesigning the cruiser as a true general purpose ship instead of it current setup as a tank. More or less a counterpart to the generalist BoP. Naturally it would not have cloak or be particularly maneuverable but it would pack stronger shields and hull and have a good mix of boff stations or maybe have a few Uni stations as well.
This would allow for a bit more flexibility in the varous ships. The Ody could be even slower than the rest ut have stronger shields/hull, while the excelsior could be a little more maneuverable at teh cost of... maybe a weapon slot less? I'm not sure, but it could be worked out.
The same beam array installed on an Odyssey class and on a Defiant class should deal way more damage from the cruiser because it can divert more power to it. It has more fusion reactors, a bigger warp reactor etc...
I think increasing the maximum power level by 20 to 145 each and increasing the base value of power by 15 to each system would be reasonable.
For science ships the base value of Aux power could be increased by 30 and more weapons using Aux only would make this class more attractive and effective.
Aux-based weapons are basically a way of making Vestas into pseudo-escorts...
It seems like the game is spiralling up a DPS vortex where everything just revolves around DPS, and that the only other factors worth considering are ways to improve survivability. Which then of course, sends everything into a vicious cycle.
As for beams and cruisers I've already mentioned the main problem is the power drain, if you can combat that, beams do what they're supposed to. Perhaps allowing more then DEM with a doff and a 2 piece rare proc to give weapon drain resistance would improve things and certainly make cruisers do the damage they are supposed to be doing. The problem is how do you do it without making it completely exploitable by escorts with DHCs.
Maybe bring it out as a weapon mod for beams might solve the problem but then again just change the mechanics would be better. Could bring it to higher ranking engineer abilities but that has problems too. The other alternative is bring it out as an extra for cruisers like how gecko was saying about the armour thing for cruisers, well instead of armour give them a warp reactor slot for them which can either give power drain resistance, extra levels or a whole host of other things.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
The problem is, even if you look at low level powers (ensign or lt. for example) tactical gets a much wider array of powers than Engineering.
On the other hand high level Tactical BOFF powers (Lt.Cmdr or Cmdr.) are the only ones really boosting offensive of a ship. Of course you can run 1 CRF on a assault Cruiser but compared to a Escort which can utilize CRF 3 and APO1 for example the cruisers offensive is just a joke.
Now, if you compare the survivability of a Escorts and a Cruiser, although a Cruiser has much more engineering BOFF slots a Escort gets such a high defensive bonus it is almost indestructable by a Cruiser, if the escort pilot knows what to do.
Well i did...
My point is, that by just giving starfleet Cruisers a tiny bit more Hull Hitpoints than their KDF counterparts doesn't compensate the almost complete lack of good and effective offensive weapon.
By introducing such a console Starfleet Cruisers would automaticly have one less Console (of course) and where just be able to equip Heavy Cannons, so KDF cruiser captains would stilll have nothing to complain about. Both ship types would still be different.
That was exactly my point.
I would very much prefer to have Cruisers to be a highly durable alll round ship. Being able to survive a bit better than a Escort, but of course not as highly maneuverable.
On the other hand, they should be focussed on utilizing science and tactical powers depending on their ship class (Galaxy Class maybe a bit more science focussed, Sovereign more tactical focussed for example. Just an idea.)
But having them practically motionless and not capable to be offensive in a satisfying way, makes them just a big target practice in PvP and extremely boring in PvE. I like that idea!
It would help finally making Cruisers becoming much more all-round ships instead of just serving as healer/tank thingy for escorts.
(i just hate the very idea of Star Trek ships/cruisers serving as flying hospitals)
In fact they could even bring out warp reactors, or whatever they call them, which have polarise hull or something similar as an ability like some shuttles have. Give it a 1 min cool down and you've appeased both crowds. Choose between 2 types, ones that give a constant buff or ones that give you a useful activated ability to augment certain styles. So many things you could do with it and it would make sense in 95% of situations.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I don't expect anything from most people, if that's what you're getting at. Things are a lot more palatable that way. However, having seen what a cruiser captain can do if he/she decides to play the game the way Cryptic designed it to be played, STF's can be a sight more efficient.
Maybe it should be based off of hull hitpoints or something. All I know is I have seen maybe once or twice has a cruiser ever gained threat over myself.
And then, because they had to sacrifice everything into dps to get that threat, they are in the same boat as escorts for no tanking...
The only reason it's not there most of the time is because of the design of current content.
There is no need to bring a healer, therefore no one brings a healer.
You can play a tank, but you can be tickled for 2 straight minutes and then suddenly one-shot out of existence.
So there is no need to play a tank.
I'm sorry if you feel that you should never need anyone else to play group content in a game focused on group content at the endgame, a game where other people play along side you.
For the record, you need other team mates now, the only difference would be what is that you need them for.
Unless you actually think you can solo HSE or CSE by yourself, you need those other players now so you can actually complete the mission and get the optional .
Also, before you get on some Escort vs. Cruiser bent, I have 10 L50 characters - only 2 of them are in Cruisers and only 1 of them is in a Sci ship. I am an Escort player first and foremost, with seven characters in some kind of Escort or Escort-like hybrid.
I'm not out to get the Escorts, I'm interested in...more interesting content than the shooting galleries of HP sacks than we have now.
You've basically just described the exact situation of Cruisers and Sci ships in PvE.
They are "crippled" by the PvE environment not requiring the abilities they were actually designed with and only requiring the ability (DPS) that they were not designed with.
Would you like for them to get some damage boost so they are both more versatile and more survivable than an Escort? Because that is the only direction to make them viable at this point in PvE. This would in fact make Escorts more useless, than simply having someone tank and someone toss heals around.
I think that is an absolutely terrible direction, and I hope the game never goes there.
You're already tossing out the "I will quit" line?
No one is asking you to hover with a baby sitter, healing, buffing and CC in this game is actually very fluid and dynamic.
You can see this if you ever PvP, where you do in fact want several types of ships filling roles for each other.
Science...still not needed at the moment, some cruisers and escorts already have access to the only skill they have that are worth a damn. They also can't match a cruiser in damage either as they have 2 weapon slots less which makes a massive difference.
Point is a cruiser that can tank and do it well, when also supported by the team is valuable, however you only need 1. Second point is that despite this games intention that everyone can have a mixed bag of tricks and can help heal each other nobody bloomin does. Cruisers can do decent damage, I would rather they got a slow creeping up of power drain resistance up to 100 to make them function better as the battle went on but that's about all I think needs doing.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
agro managment is fine as it is.
problem is most captains dont use threat control skill, or just have 1-3 points on it, i nearly never ever loose agro to anyone, and can hold on against 2 tac cubes aor several spheres on elite nearly indefinitly
my build inst perfect: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=avenger_0
something like that, exept for consoles used another build to make one and cba look for all consoles right now, in general they are near those.
ofc when i have several oponents to tank BFW isnt enough to hold aggro from all, after everyone is shooting diferent target. few hits from it cant compensate high dps from escorts, but if people are more cooperative and for example they target and shoot my target, they will never get hit from something diferent then AoE.
EDIT: runing at 125 weapon power, nearly never drops under 90-100, with 2x EpS my shiled power is nearly all the time over 100-110, engine about 80 and aux like 60. altho im alien captain with space only oriented traits, like warp teorist, elusive, the other one that boost power levels, forgot the name.
Might I recommend FAW2 and a second TT1 than the other way around? (more targets, damage, overall threat creation and all that)
However as we seem to have moved from an experiment to end all "cruisers are UP" threads to a "Your build is TRIBBLE and mines better (but only marginally, maybe)" threads I would like to appeal to a mod to have it closed.
I don't know if you've noticed, but not many people want to play dedicated healer. A great deal of friction in these forums is created by people who just want to lay down DPS, no matter what ship-class they're wearing.
I've seen exceptions to this, but okay.
This is a willful misconception of both my "feelings" and requirements for fun and rewarding game play. I've played my share of class-based games, in the genre's I prefer, and not one of them requires that one class be utterly dependent on another for survival. Let's not confuse the way things work with the way YOU want them to work.
A "difference" that would ruin the game for me, as I said.
None of this has anything to do with whether I can, at least to some degree, heal/repair myself, right?
I'm not concerned about cruisers as such, and never indicated that I was. No strawmen, okay?
More interesting content would be a win for us all, but it shouldn't (and won't) come at the expense of one class.
This is a matter of interpretation. In an escort I'm always happy to see a sci show up with some decent CC abilities, or a cruiser who can sustain some aggro, while I go to work.
I can't say it really matters to me as long as my profession isn't gimped in the process.
Characterize what I said any way that makes you feel good, but I mean precisely what I said. If it comes down to it (I seriously doubt it will, Cryptic isn't a stupid company) I can easily move to a game that doesn't lash me to a fate dictated by other players.
Now I hear some people have managed to get 21k dps from aux to batt builds but I'd take that with a massive pinch of salt as they are probably tacticals and its probably spread over 10-15 enemies which isn't very useful unless tagging with APB. I'm not saying cruisers are a shining example of how it should be be done but its no where near as gimped and useless as science.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
No. The original point of this thread was to get the lead systems designer to play a cruiser build and find out what beam arrays are like in day to day play to end escorts vs cruiser threads.
I'm quite happy with my build which does take advantage of Attack pattern Beta and does take advantage of the borg console and does take advantage of the MACO set. I could build an Aux2Batt build but that costs too much healing for my liking.
I can do 5k DPS over an ISE and I can tank everything in said run and still heal others and the only time I use TT on myself is when a facing shield goes down in one hit meaning I can throw it at others in need of it.
Who is asking you to?
You've been reading my posts correct?
Being able to heal yourself some, and being able to be a self contained unit not requiring any other heals of any kind is quite another.
Let's not confuse how you seem to think they work with how they do work.
Right now no one is dependant on anyone for anything except more DPS.
I don't want everyone to be hyperspecialized and with A being totally reliant on B for X and vice versa for Y.
Your saying the game would be ruined if some content actually made tanking and healing useful and strong options?
Use good sense, a sense of humor, and when in doubt re-read the [URL="http://sto-
forum.perfectworld.com/announcement.php?f=125&a=51"]forum rules[/URL].
Thanx
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Read the thread, and others just like it that pop up on a daily basis. This tread's title says quite a bit as well.
Then we seem to be nearly on the same page here. In the Kumari, or any of the other escorts I have for that matter, once I have big aggro I have to pop whatever measures I have charged and start driving out of range. In this respect, I'm both limited (low level heals that are few) and self-sustaining (I'll regenerate once I'm not taking fire). In this new world that you propose, having either one of these conditions gimped or taken away entirely would be a deal-breaker for me.
Let's be civil, okay? I've given you no indication whatsoever that I'm "confused" over anything. I know precisely what I do, and don't want from this game.
Dependent on each other for more than DPS? No, and that's just as it should be. That's not to say that a service rendered every now and again isn't appreciated. For instance, when looking for targets I routinely engage attackers that are bum-rushing a teammate. See what I mean? There's no game mechanic that forces me to do this. I do it because keeping my team alive furthers our collective goal of achieving the objective.
Wait, it seems like that's exactly what you want.
I've said no such thing, and you know it. If Cryptic wants to make "some content" tanking and healing friendly, that's their perogative. I'm free to avoid said content if it damages MY experience. However, if they decide to pattern ALL content on your idea (again, not going to happen), then the game is ruined for ME, which is all I really care about.